{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/zg6g15v24h/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John Fife Interviewed by Miriam Davidson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for non-commercial uses. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Miriam Davidson Papers, MS 433, Box 3, tape 10"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Davidson, Miriam, 1960 (Interviewer)","Fife, John (Interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["undated"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 John Fife discussing his work prior to becoming involved in the Sanctuary Movement, and how his involvement came to be. Side 2 John Fife discussing his sanctuary work and his thoughts on Jim Corbett and Bill Johnston.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Audio Cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS433.010 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["audio"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 John Fife discussing his work prior to becoming involved in the Sanctuary Movement, and how his involvement came to be. Side 2 John Fife discussing his sanctuary work and his thoughts on Jim Corbett and Bill Johnston.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThis Item is protected by copyright and/or related rights. You are free to use this Item in any way that is permitted by the copyright and related rights legislation that applies to your use. In addition, no permission is required from the rights-holder(s) for non-commercial uses. For other uses you need to obtain permission from the rights-holder(s).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - azu_ms433-010_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2647.464,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/106/084/original/azu_ms433-010_side1_a.mp3?1613582500","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mp3","duration":2647.464,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-010_side1_a edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay okay. Let me I know a little bit about your background and where you're from and stuff like that stuff that I got from John Longenecker. I guess if you could tell me a little bit about where are you were in 1981. Prior to all this happening,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=9.0,42.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I was on my way out off Tucson. I'd been at the church for 11 years. And both Marianne and I talked about it and decided that at the end of 1982, we were going to look for another church in another city. Because I felt that that was long enough for I mean, I pretty much contributed to this church, whatever little bit of creativity or imagination I bring to the ministry, they already knew what that was, I didn't have a whole lot needed to tell him. And it was a time when Johnny was graduating from high school. And David was graduating from junior high, so that it was a good time in their lives to make a move, Johnny was going off to college, and we wouldn't be interrupting his friendships, you know, associations in school activities, and David was just starting high school. So everybody was new at the high school and you're in ninth grade, and he could make that switch pretty well. With the least amount of pain was good time to move. I'd finished in eighty-one eight years. Representing the Presbyterians in Arizona and New Mexico on our national policymaking Council. What is that called? the General Assembly mission Council, it was called. And I chaired for six years, the Committee on mission responsibility through investment, which is a committee that has a responsibility of reviewing all of the investments of the Presbyterian Church, it's about, then it was, I'm sure it's more now, about a $750 million portfolio. And I need to get that, if Hirsh calls. Oh. The reason for that review was to set the investments, the stock holdings of the church alongside the ethical policies of the church, and to negotiate differences with corporations, we were shareholders with where there were differences. And there were major areas, human rights, questions, environmental issues, women's issues, racial justice issues, economic justice issues. And well, anyway, that'll give you some idea. And so I'd spent six years sitting down with the board chairman of General Motors, and Exxon and IBM, and all those things in negotiating the position of the church on all of those questions. And that had come to an end. So it just, it was a good time to make the shift within a year. And, and that was our plan at that point. And the other thing I started work on was a doctorate degree. I thought that I've been out of seminary for about 18 years. Uh? In Divinity? yeah. And they decided that, you know, for the good of those who had to listen to me, and from my own kind of upbringing and my skills I needed to do some academic work at that point in my career, and so that was all the plan and but by 19 by the end of 1981. We were up to our eyeballs in refugees. We had started a process looking at the possibility of becoming a sanctuaries congregation, man when we did it was a matter I was committed to totally and I've been here ever since.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=43.0,299.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: haven't done anything else. Uh-uh. So tell me how these prayer vigils got started.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=300.0,305.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You were, oh, that's easy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=306.0,308.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You knew? How did you know father Ricardo,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=309.0,310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: oh Ricardo and I arrived in Tucson almost the same time within three or four months with each other in terms of both being assigned to this barrio by each of our churches to be in ministry here, and Ricardo is one of the first clergy that I met, started working in Tucson when I arrived. He was working with two other priests out of the rectory up near St. Augustine. And we first worked together on El Rio Santa Cruz Community Center issue here, Ricardo and I would do the prayer services and worship services for all the demonstrations that were being held to transform that middle class golf course for business in downtown into a community center for the barrio where it was located. And and that was back in 1970 71. After that Ricardo and I worked on prison reform issues having street masses for families of prisoners at Florence, an Arizona State Prison to try and bring about some changes in conditions there. We've worked on farm workers issues in this area together, in ministry, worked on. The last thing was the Sinohui kid's murder by a South Tucson policeman shot him in his back through the back end of a pickup truck, one Saturday night down here. When was that? Oh, God, that was back in about 77 or 78. And Ricardo and I. Well, not and I. Ricardo had held a prayer vigil with the kid's family in front of the federal building for 111 consecutive weeks to try and get the federal government to file violation of civil rights charges against the policeman for this kid's death. The local grand jury, of course, like all grand juries do, exonerated the cop in the kid's death. But there was still possibility of filing a violation of civil rights charges against him. And finally, the federal government agreed to do that, after 111 weeks of prayers in front of the federal building with the kid's family. So just about the time that came to an end, Ricardo and I were sitting here in the living room in 1980. And saying, we know what's going on in El Salvador and Guatemala. We know about the persecution of the church there. And we were focusing particularly on on the tortures and murders of priests, evangelical pastors, Archbishop's all that sort of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=311.0,491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Before the people died out in the desert,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=492.0,494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: no, this was after and saying, what do we do about it? We are we have some responsibility to let the rest of the church community in Tucson know about what's happening to the church in Central America. And, and the idea we came up with was, well, the prayer vigil was a good idea. I mean, it worked. It got it got the folk interested in this family's need for justice. So why don't we start the prayer vigil thing again, we'll start a prayer vigil for the people of Central America, and particularly for the persecution of the church in Central America. And so he said, Well, I'll put it I'll announce it to the folks and my congregation, you announce it to the folks in your congregation and we'll start it. And so we did in January of '81. And it was just kind of on that basis. The first day there were maybe 10 folks there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=495.0,560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: did you have How do you do I mean, its bad to say, I've never been down there but are you you have signs","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=561.0,569.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: we have signs. Oh,--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=570.0,571.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: walk in a circle","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=572.0,572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: walk in a circle for about 15, 20 minutes. And then just gather in a circle and have a liturgy scripture reading and prayers and litanies back and forth that people read and the whole thing takes about a half an hour at five o'clock--yep, on Thursday afternoon. You do that deliberately","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=573.0,595.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: while they're all coming out of the building?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=596.0,596.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: yeah, sure, sure. it's a time when folk are leaving the federal building, as well as the time when there's a lot of traffic on Congress, when all the the folk in the offices downtown are leaving. And so it's just, it's just a good time to be there to get people's attention.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=597.0,615.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Who are some of the people who were there? I mean, the some of the people that I'm interested in specifically that are gonna be characters in my book are Gary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=616.0,629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Gary came almost maybe two or three weeks after we started it Gary showed up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=630.0,641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. How about some of the people that later were in TEC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=642.0,646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: the most, the main people who started showing up about February or so that that really were critical to that prayer vigil being an important place were Margo Cowan and Lupe Castillo from Manzo Council. And they would come and begin to tell us, those of us who were gathered there about particular Salvadorans or Guatemalans that were being detained by INS, and just on a week to week basis, standing around that circle, I would say, or somebody else would say, Okay, I'll take care of that family. And in those days, what we could do was just write a letter on church letterhead to the INS and if you release his particular family from detention, our congregation will be responsible for seeing that they show up for political asylum. And, and I wrote lots of those letters, as did other people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=647.0,706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Let them out on OR? OR, sure. Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=707.0,713.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: In fact, later on, you know, when Jim started taking people in and apply for political asylum, they just released them OR after the political asylum applications filled out. That's how Jim got started with us. And so we were doing that on a kind of ad hoc basis, February, March, April of '81. And more people started attending that prayer vigil. There's probably an average of 25, 30 people there. Every Thursday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=714.0,748.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Even back then it got to be that many? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your about Dave Sholin your relationship with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=749.0,762.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Interesting! Dave is really responsible for me coming to Tucson back in 1970. I called Dave up and said I wanted to be pastor of Southside Presbyterian Church, they need they were looking for a pastor. How had you heard, was there--Oh, yeah, there's a list of vacant churches that are distributed to Presbyterian ministers who are looking for pastors looking to make a change. And I saw that Southside church, was looking for a pastor, I was ready to make a change at that point in my life. I was in an urban Ministry, Canton, Ohio. And a part of that job description there was to develop community organizations that would, and train indigenous leadership, from the ghetto there, to assume responsibilities that we were doing initially. And that was just about at that transition point, we developed the organization and the leadership from the local community. And it was time for me to pack it up and move on. So I called Sholin and had a professor, friend of mine from seminary, call Sholin who was a good friend of his, on my behalf","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=763.0,845.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Just because he knew a Presbyterian pastor in town?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=846.0,847.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: in Tucson, and said, Hey, I want to be pastor at Southside Presbyterian Church, and he said, Well, that's gonna be real tough, because the Presbytery, which functions like a bishop, it's a representative body of the clergy and laity, we basically make the policy decisions for the church in southern Arizona. So the Presbytery has decided to close that church down and merge it with another congregation. And I said, that, I don't believe that. I think that that's a real, viable congregation, he said well, no, it's changed in the last five years dramatically. And, and I said, Well, I still want to be pastor of that church. And he said, Well, I don't think it's possible, he said, but I'll tell you what, I'm looking for an associate pastor here, kind of second level on the staff. He said, I'd be glad to interview you if you want to come to Tucson for that position. He said, I hear you've got some skills. And I said, I don't want to be your number two gopher. And he said, Well, tell you what, we talked a little bit about that. And I said, Dave I don't function well taking orders from anybody. And and I just don't think that would work out. And he said, Well, he said, I still am looking for an associate. And he said, I can bring you out here and interview you for that job anyway. And while you're here doing that, maybe we can talk the Presbytery and that congregation into interviewing you and maybe we can work something out, I don't know. I said, Good. Let's do it on that basis. You understand, I don't want to be your associate, fine. He payed for a plane ticket, Marianne and I came out. And I interviewed with a committee from his church for that job. And, and we gerrymandered an interview down here at this church. And then I talked to the presbytery people and and said, If I'm offered the job, will you give us two years to see if we can make it a viable church? And they finally said, yeah, they would try to work that out. And so it turned out Dave offered me a job at St. Mark's and I got offered a job here, both at the same time, which almost destroyed our marriage, because Marianne said given a choice between the salary and perks in St. Mark's and trying to resurrect a dead horse here. You want to go resurrect the dead horse, right? And I said, Yeah, and she said, I'll divorce you if you do, because I know it's gonna be like that for the rest of our life. If you start down that road. And I said, well, I just need to keep both the marriage and the job intact and we talked a long time about it, but finally came to came to Southside. So Dave was just, you know, I wouldn't be here without Sholin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=848.0,1042.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, that's kind of what he told me too. So he, but he seemed to have a different idea about sanctuary. But I want to get into that in a minute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1043.0,1051.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We had major disagreement when sanctuary first started. In fact, before that, Dave and I had a major disagreement about the involvement of Margo Cowan and Manzo Council in the whole venture and as a matter of fact they quit the task force at that point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1052.0,1071.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: because of her, personality problems with her? that's what I understand,  she must be a real firebrand or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1072.0,1081.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, no, we, both Dave and I love that firebrand part of Margo. The part that we both have problems with, is that she would lie to her grandmother in order to do what she felt needed to be done in the cause. That goes that goes for everyone with the possible exception of Lupe Castillo. And working with Margo is just impossible. She does not want to share decision making with anyone, or be responsible to anyone. She would lie and sell you down the river at a drop of a handkerchief if she thought it was necessary for [INAUDIBLE]. And, and it's it's the most difficult experience in the world trying to work with Margo. My position on that was I was willing to walk the coals of Margo's terrible relationships and workstyle to help Central Americans because it wasn't any place else we can go at that point. Dave had said I can't do it and I won't work with her. He had two disastrous experiences in the past and so we split over my insistence that since there wasn't anybody else around to do the work the refugees needed, needed the work done worse than I needed to protect myself from the work style and life style of Margo Cowan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1082.0,1185.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It's funny because, you know, when I dig a little, you know, and I try to figure out what is it about the community here? What different personalities contributed.  What it seems like, he contributed a lot in the initial stages to awareness about refugees, to caring about them, like he's, you know, decided to bond out those people who were in the desert. So then I thought, well, what, you know what happened, you know, why was the focus shift. That was the point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1186.0,1221.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I tried to provide some leadership with TEC and renew to a working relationship with Manzo Council.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1222.0,1228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because they were the only the only game","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1229.0,1230.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: in town, there weren't any other choices. And Dave just said he couldn't do that. As a matter of his own integrity. And what he saw was an absolute disaster waiting down the road. If if we entered into that relationship. And he was right about that I was right about going ahead and doing it anyway. Dealing with the disasters later,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1231.0,1256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: did he help as far as the institutional or or the getting the support for sanctuary on the national level?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1257.0,1270.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, Dave was opposed to Sanctuary. He fought us getting the approval of the Tucson Ecumenical Council for sanctuary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1271.0,1282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So he didn't really help out with the Presbyterians.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1283.0,1286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't, he didn't get in the way of that. But but, you know, pretty much, and he certainly was supportive of it. In terms of Presbyterian, that sort of thing. But, but not enthusiastic, I mean he just didn't get in the way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1287.0,1301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about getting raising the funds to bond out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1302.0,1305.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: He and the Catholic Diocese bonded out the first group of desert survivors","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1306.0,1311.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I mean, there was an ongoing process of bonding people out every week. Where did that money come from","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1312.0,1317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: that money primarily was was raised through, the Presbyterian money was raised through my contacts with the Presbyterian church initially. They and Mike raised some of that money within St. Mark's Church, within other congregations. People put up their houses Gary did, Jim did. The only reason I didn't is I don't own this place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1318.0,1345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So he seemed to think that, well actually I'm jumping ahead of myself a little bit, because I want to go back to the Picture Rocks meeting where","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1346.0,1356.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, then the other major thing that Dave did, initially, was to see the need for institutionalizing the ministry to Central Americans back in April of 81. And took the initiative he and Mike. Mike was the president of the TEC. And he and Mike really conceived of and formed the original TEC task force on Central America under the Tucson Ecumenical Council, and that was a very bright thing, that was just absolutely essential, as you look back in terms of the solid moves that went in to institutionalizing that thing, getting the support of the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches in Tucson for that ministry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1357.0,1405.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And Gary probably has met him? Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1406.0,1408.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, David, Gary, are right across the hall from each other in terms of offices. So those conversations are going back and forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1409.0,1419.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And they both have kind of an international perspective,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1420.0,1423.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: of course, their experience in Latin America it can't be matched.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1424.0,1431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: He, could you say that they helped educate you? Or do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1432.0,1437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Initially, everything I knew about Liberation Theology in Latin America came from David and Gary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1438.0,1448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, okay. This Picture Rocks meeting there was you,  Jim,  Father Ricardo. Tim Nonn, Margo . . . Anybody else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1449.0,1464.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. Barbara Elfbrandt was there from AFSC. Was Gary there? Yeah, Gary was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1465.0,1474.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. And the idea. Nobody was thinking about evasion services that that was just Jim doing his own thing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1475.0,1483.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well Jim wasn't even doing that at that point. I don't think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1484.0,1487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: well, he'd had a few bad experiences with the I mean, this was before the guys or I guess it was right after he took those two guys in and they were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1488.0,1494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Right, it was either right before or right after. Yeah. And Jim will I have a better memory of that than I do. But it was right around that time. So one of the reasons for the meeting was TEC taskforce was on a track to rent a house and use it as a kind of place where Central American refugees could stay for periods of time. Either when we, when they were bonded out for [INAUDIBLE] after released on OR our big problem was social services for those folks that we had gotten out or who had arrived on their own in Tucson. There was a large developing community. And Tim was getting eaten up with just social service needs for finding housing for people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1495.0,1543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So he was doing it didn't, it didn't matter whether they were bonded out or whether they were just came in on their own? Never did? Why was was the house idea canned?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1544.0,1550.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: The social services thing was just going ahead anyway. But the biggest problem were those people we were directly responsible for that we've got OR out of INS detention centers, and we needed a house or someplace to just take people off the street, or out of detention centers. And so Tim was on a track trying to get find a house or place for people to stay. And that was on the agenda that meeting. The other track we were on was the reality at that point of bonds beginning to be set on those folks. And, and so that's the reason we met and said, look, we've got to, we've got to get it all together. basically because Margo, and Lupe came to that meeting and said, before we get started, we've just been to El Centro, we need to tell you what we saw there. They described conditions at El Centro, and the numbers of Central Americans there. And the fact that everyone who came through here was eventually winding up at El Centro, there wasn't any legal representation at El Centro at all. And the whole meeting got preoccupied with that question and the decision at the end of the meeting, to to mount a major effort to go over to El Centro with bunches of volunteers, and do that mass bond-out Because you decided that these people were under the threat of deportation immediately. And that was more important than ... It was the most critical problem that we had to take care of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1551.0,1659.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So do you recall talking with Jim at all that meeting about his agenda?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1660.0,1665.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. I didn't really talk with him about his agenda until late that summer, after the bond-out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1666.0,1676.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And that's when he came to you and asked you to put people up in the church.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1677.0,1679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. Why, before that, I talked to Jim about what he was doing. In terms of evasion services, and had had some discussions with him and Mike. And I think Father Ricardo, about the fact that we thought that clergy ought to be primarily the people who did the transporting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1680.0,1708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, you were all for it right from the start? No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1709.0,1714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: These were intellectual discussions. Okay. And, and, and on two, a couple of occasions, we had said, Yeah, Jim is doing that. We think that it's real dangerous. And, and if people are picked up on the road between Nogales and Tucson, we think they ought to be nuns or clergy. But that's as far as the conversations had gone. Yeah. And we said to each other, well, are we willing to do that? And we talked about that and what it meant, and that sort of thing. And we were moving toward trying to decide that question for each of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1715.0,1756.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean, whether it was right or whether you personally had the guts to do it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1757.0,1759.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Whether we personally had the guts to do that, whether we would volunteer to be the clergy who would do that. And, and that was not I mean, that was was a matter of serious consideration. And I was struggling with the fact that, Well, everybody has their own role, and I'm real glad Corbett is doing that, but my role is fundraising and institutional maintenance of the legal aid system and I've got my hands full with that. I don't even have time to do that. And, and, I don't know. You know, whether I'll either have the time or or whether I really want to get involved in that whole evasion services, you wouldn't call it evasion services then, just called, go get them. Nogales, and truck them up. And so it was in the middle of that whole. Those discussions with Mike and Tim and Ricardo and some other books. It was just pretty much us though, I think just three or four of us who were talking about it, that I first went out to Jim's house and ran, you know, Jim and I had our first serious discussion about that question, and about whether he could bring people to the church or not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1760.0,1842.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you propose to him the idea of clergy doing it, because the impression I got from Dave Sholin was that Jim needed the institutional base in order to make it work. So he approached you, with the idea of the clergy doing the driving?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1843.0,1864.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I really don't have I don't think that that it was our idea at all. I think it was as a result of some conversations with Jim by somebody. And I don't I don't have any idea who that was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1865.0,1879.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It would be a good idea to have ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1880.0,1881.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: clergy do that. And I, I first heard about it from Tim. Tim said to me, Look, we need to have a meeting and start talking about this, because because it's a good idea. Or Jim thinks it's good. I don't really know. That clergy be the ones to do the driving between here and Nogales. And I said, Yeah, I think that's probably right. But I want to talk about that a lot. Do it at all. So on within a month, all of those conversations, my meeting with Jim up at his house, all that. His request to, to bring people to the church that he brought across, all that just kind of came together in a very compressed time frame, all those conversations ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1882.0,1931.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What did what did your wife think of it when you told her that you would be doing it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1932.0,1942.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: She said, Don't do it. I can't handle that, was basically what she said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1943.0,1951.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, I can imagine ... it's real. You know, just because I know Pat, I don't really know Marianne well, but I know that it's been real hard on Pat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1952.0,1960.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: It's harder, I'll tell you the hardest part of this work is, is not doing it, but sitting at home knowing somebody you care about is doing it. It, it's much easier for me to get into the truck and go do the border thing than to wave goodbye to people who are going to do it and wait for them to get back. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1961.0,1984.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Do you think you have ... it sounds like you're not personally afraid for your safety or anything like that? No. Can you think about what might be in your past maybe in your childhood that made you not fearful of authority figures? Because I think I am afraid of authority figures. And I know because when I went to pick up some refugees, I was just terrified, much, you know, much more afraid than was required under the situation. And I think why is it about some people that they just aren't?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1985.0,2024.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I think part of it is is my experience in seminary, and after that. I am a child of the 60s I started my seminary education in 62, middle of or beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, and was in ministry on in urban areas ever since. So I was I was at Selma in the March on Washington, and lots of civil rights, actions and demonstrations and stuff like that. In Pittsburgh area. I've been in Urban Ministry so I've been on the streets in the toughest parts of the toughest cities in the country in terms of my ministry, and I'm much more scared some nights when I'm the only white face in a black ghetto than I ever am with Border Patrol, that bunch of guys down there. So I guess it's pretty much all a matter of, compared to what? and I also had the experience of knowing that authorities could be dead wrong for years and years because of the civil rights movement, and understanding that you have to stand up to that, or else you lose your rights, and a lot of people go down the tubes, unless folk are willing to do that. So all that was part of my experience and training. This is, this is nothing compared to looking at the dogs and the billy clubs, Selma and other places. So I guess it's just a matter compared to what. This this kind of looks like ... [INAUDIBLE] Yeah, see that ... I mean I've ahd shotguns pointed at me and people threaten to kill me and all kinds of stuff. Marches when I didn't know whether I was gonna get shot or not. So this is, this is not exactly traumatic compared to that. And once you get one of those or two of those under your belt, you can just go do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2025.0,2165.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I never got that far. It's too scary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2166.0,2169.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: And it's a matter of person and experience again. And everybody's a little different situation. There's nothing right or wrong about that, it's just everybody functions ... that's why you have different roles within an organization. Everybody ought not to do the same thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2170.0,2190.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, Bill Johnson. He was pretty. He said, Oh I was out there with my placards in the 60s, you know, kind of like, kind of like, uh ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2191.0,2198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I grew out of that, I'm more mature now. What he did was sell out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2199.0,2203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, that's what I felt like saying, like what happened? Because you said, these guys are basically retired hippies. I thought, that's pretty terrible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2204.0,2214.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's what one guy put ... one INS undercover agent that was at the church when we first declared Sanctuary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2215.0,2221.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You knew? You didn't know he was there at the time ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2222.0,2223.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. We assumed that somebody was there, didn't know who it was. He said that there were some aging misfits from the Vietnam era ... was the description.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2224.0,2242.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I do think that it is. You know, that's ... I'm sure that that [INAUDIBLE] because I was too young to remember the 60s. A little bit, because my father was Eugene McCarthy's campaign doctor. So I remember meeting him, but I was just a tiny little kid. But, I bet that whole era just had a profound influence on people. No doubt about it.  I miss it.  Okay, so this ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2243.0,2277.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't miss it. You don't want to miss it. It was a terrible time. Tore people's lives up. Anybody who looks back on it with a certain amount of romance doesn't see all the shattered lives I've seen. Because it was not. It was not a good time to be around. This is not a good time to be around. That was not something you want to look back on with any romance. It was very, very difficult.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2278.0,2320.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, well, then this, this, you reach this decision yourself then, that this was ...  I mean you talk to Jim. I mean, the story goes that you said, I can't decide, the elders have to decide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2321.0,2332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, that was about bringing people to the church. But there were there were, there was my own personal decision about the extent to which I'd be involved in transporting folks at the border up. And the other was the decision about what what we were going to do as congregation. But, but both of those, the conclusion was exactly the same. I was convinced by Jim that ethically, he was absolutely right on the mark. And as a matter of both my professional responsibility to the church, and my own personal integrity, I I really had no choice except to conclude that Jim was absolutely right. And once I had to face that the conclusion was real clear on both those accounts","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2333.0,2389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Were you able to bring your wife around to agreement?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2390.0,2392.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. She still doesn't agree with me ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2393.0,2396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: God, it must be really hard [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2397.0,2399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. I mean, yeah, it is hard. But my wife and I have always understood that one of the reasons our marriage works is that we're very different people. And we have very different values. And my life would be a shambles now if I didn't have Marianne around who cared about other things, keeping the house running, and the kids cared about, and the family together, and all those kinds of values that that she thinks are very important. While I'm on off, as she says, saving the world. And if if those two very different perspectives didn't come together, the marriage and the family wouldn't work at all. So underneath all that, all those differences and disagreements, it works.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2400.0,2454.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I always am interested in how couples relate, you know how they, they each have different roles in life, and yet still managed to keep it together. And your oldest boy, he's in college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2455.0,2471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, his in Northern Arizona University. And working at the Grand Canyon. Matter of fact he called last night, left for Havasu this morning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2472.0,2478.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I hear its really beautiful there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2479.0,2482.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: He works for ... trail guides. And they guide groups, individuals down on the trails, in the canyon. It's a wonderful job. I can imagine just doing it all summer, but getting paid to do it all summer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2483.0,2505.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And your other son, he's ... He'll be a senior in high school. And he goes to ... To Salpointe High School. That's the Catholic, yeah. Yeah, because Bill Johnson told me that ... his kid is in the same class. Interesting. Okay, so this. You ... this meeting with the elders you had. Are there any minutes from that meeting that are not available to ... [INAUDIBLE]. Are there public records?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2506.0,2539.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, there are public records but all they would do is just give the action. Oh, they don't say, so and so said this? No. It just has the motion. And the motion was that that Southside church would extend the hospitality of the church to anyone who needed a place to stay or, or the ministrry, the pastoral ministry of the church. It was just real simple, it was one sentence. But it took five hours.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2540.0,2576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Were they, I mean, the conversation was it pretty much the same one, kind of thing that you had with Jim, as far as the theological.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2577.0,2584.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, well the theological and biblical stuff was really easy. I mean, everybody understood that and understood the need for it. The question was, what that meant legally, and what kind of risk the members of the church and the session and I would be at, if if we did that, and nobody knew at that point, I mean, all we could say is the INS considers it to be illegal you can get up to five years in prison for each refugee. You told them that? Oh yeah, but, but the question for us is a faith question. And and you know, the conversation, everybody said, yeah, we understand the faith question, but what does it mean you know, what, what's the risk?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2585.0,2641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yes, the bottom line ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2642.0,2644.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/63010/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/010/original/azu_ms433-010_side1_a_edited.vtt?1704473917","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/010/original/azu_ms433-010_side1_a_edited.vtt?1704473917"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-010_side1_unedited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, okay.Let me um, I know a little bit about your background and where you're from. I guess if you could tell me a little bit about where are you We're in 1981. Prior to all this happening,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=17.0,42.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I was on my way to Tucson. I've been at the church for 11 years. And both Marian and I talked about it and decided that at the end of 1982, we look for another church, in another city. Because I, I felt that that was long enough for me and I pretty much contributed to this church, whatever. Little bit of creativity or imagination I, you know, bring to the ministry, they already knew what that was, I didn't have any whole lot new to tell them. And it was a time when Johnny was graduating from high school. And David was graduating from junior high, so that it was a good time in their lives to make a move, Johnny was going off to college, and we wouldn't be interrupting his friendships, you know, associations in school activities, and David was just starting High School. So everybody was new at the high school and you're in ninth grade, and he could make that switch pretty well. with the least amount of pain was a good time to move. I finished in 81 eight years. Representing the Presbyterians in Arizona, in New Mexico on our national policymaking Council,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=43.0,127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: what is that called?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=128.0,128.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: the General Assembly mission Council, it was called. And I chaired for six years, the Committee on mission responsibility through investment, which is a committee that has a responsibility of renewing all of the investments of the Presbyterian Church, it's about us than it was I'm sure it's more than that, about a $750 million portfolio. And I need to get that if Hirsh calls. The reason for that review was to set the investments, the stock holdings of the church alongside the ethical policies of the church, and to negotiate differences with corporations, we were shareholders with where there were differences. And there were major areas, human rights, questions, environmental issues, women's issues, racial justice issues, economic justice issues. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=129.0,245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: in divinity?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=246.0,246.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yep. And they decided that, you know, for the good of those who had to listen to me, and from my own kind of upgrading of my skills I needed to do some academic work at that point in my career, and so that was all the plan and but by 19 by the end of 1981. We were up to our eyeballs in refugee. We had started a process looking at the possibility of becoming a sanctuary as a congregation. And when we did it was a matter I was committed to totally and and I've been here ever since.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=247.0,296.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You haven't done anything else. Okay. So tell me how these prayer vigils got started. You were,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=297.0,307.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: oh,that's easy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=308.0,308.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You knew how did you know father Ricardo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=309.0,310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh Ricardo and I arrived in Tucson almost the same time within three, four months with each other in terms of both being assigned to this barrio by each of our churches to be in ministry here, and Ricardo is one of the first clergy that I met and started working with in Tucson when I arrived. He was working with two other priests out of the rectory up near San Agustus and we first worked together on El Eio Santa Cruz community center here. Ricardo and I would lead the prayer services worship services for all the demonstrations that were being held to transform that middle class golf course for business in downtown into a community center where the barrio group is located. And and that was back in 1970 - 71. After that Ricardo and I worked on prison reform issues having street masses for families of prisoners at Arizona State Prison to try and bring about some changes in conditions there. We've worked on farmworkers issues in this area together, ministry work done. The last thing was the kids murdered by South Tucson  policeman shot him in the back through the back end of a pickup truck, one Saturday night.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=311.0,414.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: When was that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=415.0,416.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, God, it was back in about 77 or 78. And Ricardo and I. Well not and I, Ricardo held the pray vigil with the kid's family in front of the federal buildings to 111 consecutive weeks to try and get the federal government to file violations, civil rights charges for this kid's death. The local grand jury, of course, like all grand juries, exonerated the cop in the kid's death,  but there was still possibility of filing violation of civil rights charges. And finally, the federal government agreed to do that after 111 weeks of prayers in front of the federal building. So just about the time that came to an end, Ricardo and I were sitting here in the living room in 1980. And saying, we know what's going on, you know, Salvador and Guatemala. We know about persecution of the church there. And we were focusing particularly on on the tortures and murders of priests, evangelical pastors, Archbishop's all that sort of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=417.0,491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Before the people died out in the desert?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=492.0,494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: no, this was after and saying, what do we do about it? We ought we have some responsibility to let the rest of the church community in Tucson, know about what's happening to the church in Central America. And, and the idea we came up with was, well, the prayer vigil was a good idea. I mean, it worked. It got it got folk interested in this family's need for justice. So why don't we start the prayer vigil thing, only we'll start a prayer vigil for the people of Central America, and particularly for the persecution of the church in Central America. And so he said, Well, I'll put it I'll announce it to the folk and my congregation, you announces the folks in your congregation will start it. And so we did January of 81. And it was just kind of on that basis. The first day there were maybe ten folks there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=495.0,560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: did you have How do you do? I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=561.0,569.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, we have signs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=570.0,571.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Walk in a  circle?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=572.0,572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Walk in a circle for about 15, 20 minutes, and then just gather in a circle and have a scripture reading and prayers, litanies back and forth with people you know. The whole thing takes about half an hour.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=573.0,590.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: at five o'clock","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=591.0,592.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yup, Thursday afternoon","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=593.0,593.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: you do that deliberately after while they're all coming out of the building?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=594.0,593.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, sure. It's a time when folks are leaving the Federal Building, as well as the time when there's a lot of traffic on Congress, all the folk in the offices downtown are leaving. And so it's just, it's just a good time to be there to get people's attention.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=594.0,615.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Who are some of the people who were there? I mean, some of the people I'm interested in specifically that are gonna be characters in my book are Gary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=616.0,629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Gary came almost the very beginning maybe two or three weeks after we started it Gary showed up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=630.0,643.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: How about some of the people that later were in the TEC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=644.0,646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: the most, the main people who started showing up about February or so that that really were critical that that prayer vigil being an important place, we're Margot Cohen and Lupe Castillo. And they would come and begin to tell us, those of us who were gathered there about Buehler, Salvadorans of Guatemalans that were being attained by INS, and just on a week to week basis, standing around that circle, I would say, or somebody else would say, Okay, I'll take care of that family. And in those days, what we could do was just write a letter on church letterhead to the INS saying if you release this particular family in detention, our our congregation will be responsible for seeing that they show up for political asylum. And, and I wrote lots of those letters, as did other people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=647.0,755.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Tell me about your about Dave Sholan and your relationship with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=756.0,762.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Interesting. Dave is really responsible for me coming to Tucson back in 1970. I called Dave up and said I wanted to be pastor of Southside Presbyterian Church, they need they were looking for pastor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=763.0,782.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: How had you heard about it? their list?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=783.0,784.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: yeah, there's a there's a list of vacant churches that are distributed to Presbyterian ministers who are looking for pastors looking to make a change. And I saw that Southside Church was looking for a pastor, I was ready to make a change. At that point in my life. I was in urban ministry. And part of that job description there was to develop community organizations that was trained indigenous leadership, from the ghetto, to assume responsibilities that we were doing initially. And that was just about it, that transition point, we develop the organization and traning the leadership from the local community. And it was time for me to pack it up and move on. So I called Shaolin and had a professor, friend of mine from seminary, cultural one who was a good friend of his on my behalf","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=785.0,1042.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, that's kind of what he told me too. So he, but he seemed to have a different idea about sanctuary. But I want to get into that in a minute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1043.0,1051.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We had major disagreement when sanctuary first started. In fact, before that, Dave and I had a major disagreement about the involvement of Margot Cowin of counsel. as a matter of fact they quit the task force at tht point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1052.0,1185.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It's funny because, you know, when I dig a little, you know, when I tried to figure out what is it about the community here, what different personalities contributed what it seems like he contributed a lot in the initial stages to awareness about refugees, to caring about them, like he's, you know, decided to bond out those people in the desert. So what I thought, well, what, you know what happened, you know, what was the focus","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1186.0,1215.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: that was the point. I tried to provide some leadership at TEC and renewed to a working relationship with a counselor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1216.0,1228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because they were the only","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1229.0,1229.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: the only game in town, there weren't any other choices. And they just said he couldn't be had. As a matter of his own integrity. And what he saw was an absolute disaster way down the road If, if we entered into that relationship, and he was right about that, and I was right about going ahead and doing it anyway. Dealing with the disasters later,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1230.0,1256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: did he help as far as the institutional or getting the support for sanctuary on the national level?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1257.0,1270.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, Dave was opposed to sanctuary. getting the approval of the Tucson Ecunemical Council for sanctuary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1271.0,1282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But he didn't really have clout with the Presbyterian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1283.0,1287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: He didn't get in the way of that. But, but, you know, pretty much, and he certainly was supportive of it, in terms of Presbyterian, that sort of thing, but did not enthusiastic, he just didn't get in the way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1288.0,1301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about getting raising the funds to bond out refugees?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1302.0,1305.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: He in, in the Catholic Diocese bonded out the first group of desert survivors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1306.0,1311.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But I mean, that was an ongoing process of bonding people out every week.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1312.0,1315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1316.0,1316.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON:  Where did that money come from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1317.0,1317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That money primarily was was raised through presbyterian money through my contacts. Dave, and Mike raised some of that money within St. Mark's church, within other congregations. People put up their houses Gary did. Jim did. The only reason I didn't is cuase I don't own this place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1318.0,1345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So he seemed to think that I'm jumping ahead of myself a little bit, because I want to go back to the Picture Rocks meeting where?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1346.0,1356.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, then the other major thing that Dave did, initially was to see the need for institutionalizing the ministry of the Central Americans back in April of 81. And took the initiative he and Mike. Mike was the president of TEC at taht point. And he and Mike really conceived of and formed the original TEC Task Force on Central America under the Tucson Ecunemical Council, and that was a very bright move, that was just absolutely essential, as you look back in terms of the solid moves that went into institutionalizing that thing and getting the support of the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches in Tucson for that ministry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1357.0,1419.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And they both have kind of an international perspective.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1420.0,1423.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Of course. Their experience in Latin America can't be matched.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1424.0,1431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Did he. Could you say that they helped educate you or?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1432.0,1437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Initially, everything I knew about liberation theology in Latin America came from Dave and Gary. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1438.0,1448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. Okay. This Picture Rocks meeting there was you, Jim,  Father Ricardo. Tim Nonne, Margo, Lupe. Anybody else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1449.0,1466.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, Barbara was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1467.0,1471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah. Gary was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1472.0,1474.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. And the idea. Nobody was thinking about evasion services that night. That was Jim was doing his own thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1475.0,1483.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, Jim wasn't even doing that at that point, I don't think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1484.0,1487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, he'd had a few bad experiences with the I mean, this was before the guys or I guess it was right after he took those two guys in and they were arrested.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1488.0,1495.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, right. It was either right before, right. Yeah. And Jim will have a better memory on that than I do. But it was right around that time somewhere. One of the reasons for the meeting was TEC taskforce was on a track to rent a house and use it as a kind of place where Central American refugees could stay for periods of time. Either when we were when they were bonded out for at that point, after we released them on OR our big problem was social services for those folks that we had gotten out, or who had arrived on their own in Tucson, there was a large developing community. And Tim was getting eaten up, which is social service needs, finding housing for people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1496.0,1544.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It didn't, it didn't matter whether they were bonded out or whether they were just came in on their own through,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1545.0,1549.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Those social services thing is just going ahead anyway. But the biggest problem, one of those people who were directly responsible for that we'de gotten OR out of minus detention centers, and we needed a house or someplace to just take people off the street, or out of detention centers. And so Tim was on a track trying to get find a house a place for people to stay in. And that was on the agenda that meeting. The other track we were on was the reality at that point of bonds beginning to be set on those folks. And, and so that's the reason we met and said, Look, we've got to, we've got to get it all together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1550.0,1602.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Why why was the house idea canned?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1603.0,1606.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Basically, because Margo, and Lupe came to that meeting and said, Before we get started, we've just been to El Centro, we need to tell you what we saw there. They described conditions at El Centro, and the numbers of Central Americans there. And the fact that everyone who came through here was eventually winding up at El Centro there wasn't any legal representation at El Centro at all. And the whole meeting got preoccupied with that question and the decision at the end of the meeting, to to mount a major effort to go over to El Centro with bunches of volunteers, and do that mass bond out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1607.0,1648.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: because you decided that these people were under the threat of deportation immediately. And that was more important","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1649.0,1654.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That was the most critical problem we had to begin to take care of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1655.0,1659.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So do you recall talking with Jim at all at that meeting about his agenda?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1660.0,1665.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. I didn't really talk with Jim about his agenda until late that summer after the bond out took place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1666.0,1676.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And that's when he came to you and asked you to put people up in the church.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1677.0,1679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. Why, before that, I talked to Jim about what he was doing in terms of evasion services, and had had some discussions with Tim and Mike. And I think Father Ricardo, about the fact that we thought that clergy ought to be primarily the people who did the transporting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1680.0,1708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, you were all for it. Right. From the start?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1709.0,1711.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. These were intellectual discussions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1712.0,1716.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1717.0,1718.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: And, and, and on to a couple of occasions, we had said, Yeah, Jim is doing that. We think that it's real dangerous. And, and if people are picked up on the road between Nogales and Tucson, we think they ought to be nuns or clergy. But that's as far as the conversation. Yeah. And we said to each other, well, are we willing to do that? And we talked about that and what it meant, and that sort of thing. And, and we were moving toward trying to decide that question for each of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1719.0,1756.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean, whether it was right or whether you personally had the guts","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1757.0,1759.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: whether we personally had to guts to do that. whether we would volunteer to be the clergy who would do that? And, and that was not only that was a matter of serious consideration. And I was struggling with back well, everybody has their own role and we're glad Corbett's doing that. But my role is fundraising and institutional maintenance of the legal aid system and I've got my hands full with that. I don't have enough time to do that. And, and I don't know. You know, whether I'll have the time or Whether I really want to get involved in that whole evasion services, cultivation services, just called go get them in Noglaes, truck them up. And so it was in the middle of that own those discussions with Mike and Tim and Ricardo and some other folks. I think it was Pretty much us thought. I think there were just three or four of us talking about it that that I first went out to Jim's house and ran, you know, Jim and I had our first serious discussion about that question, and about whether he could bring people to the church.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1760.0,1842.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you propose to him the idea of clergy doing it, because the impression I got from Dave Shoin was that Jim needed the institutional base in order to make it work. So he approached you, with the idea of the clergy doing the driving?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1843.0,1864.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I really don't have I don't think that it was our idea at all. I think it was as a result of some conversations with Jim by somebody. And I don't I don't have any idea who that was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1865.0,1879.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: it would be a good idea to have","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1880.0,1881.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Have clergy do that. And I, I first heard about it from Tim. Tim said to me, Look, we need to have a meeting and start talking about this, because because it's a good idea. Or Jim thinks it's good. I I don't remember that clergy be the ones to do the driving between here and Nogales. And I said, Yeah, I think that's probably right but I want to talk about that a lot about that before I do it at all. So on within a month, all of those conversations, my meeting with Jim up at his house, all that his requests to, to bring people to the church, that he brought across all that just kind of came together in a very compressed time. All those conversations were going on all at the same time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1882.0,1931.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What did? What did your wife think of it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1932.0,1942.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: She said, don't do it. I can't handle that was basically what she said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1943.0,1951.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, I can imagine it's real. You know, just because I know Pat I don't really know Marianne at all. I know that it's been real hard on Pat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1952.0,1960.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: It's harder, I'll tell you the hardest part of this work, is not doing it. But sitting at home knowing that somebody you care about is doing it. It's much easier for me to get the truck and go to the border thing then wave goodbye to people who are going to do it and wait for them to get back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1961.0,1984.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Do you think you have? It sounds like you're not personally afraid for your safety? No. Can you think about what might be in your past maybe in your childhood that made you not fearful of authority figures? Because I think I am afraid of authority figures. And I know because I was when I went to pick up some refugees, I was just terrified, much, you know, much more afraid than was required under the situation. And I think why is it about some people that they just aren't?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=1985.0,2024.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I think part of it is is my experience in seminary, and after that. I am a child of the 60s, I started my seminary education at 62. Middle of, or the beginning of the civil rights movement, and was in ministry on in urban areas ever since. So I was I was at Selma and the March on Washington, and lots of civil rights, actions and demonstrations and stuff like that in Pittsburgh area. I've been in urban ministry so I've been on the streets, in the toughest parts of the toughest cities in the country in terms of my ministry, and I'm much more scared. Some nights when I'm the only white face in a ghetto than I ever am the Border Patrol guys down there. So I guess it's pretty much all a matter of compared to what and I also had the experience of knowing that authorities could be dead wrong for years and years in the civil rights movement and understanding that you have to stand up to that, or else you lose your rights, and a lot of people go down the tubes unless folks are willing to do that. So that was part of my experience of training. This is, this is nothing compared to looking at the dog, billy clubs at Selma and other places. So I guess it's just a matter compared to what this this kind of looks like some. I've had shotguns pointed at me people threatened to kill me, you know, all kinds of stuff. I've been out on marches when I didn't know whether I'd be shot or not. So this is this is not exactly dramatic compared to that. And once you get one of those two those under your belt you begin to just go do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2025.0,2165.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I never got that far. It's too scary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2166.0,2169.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: And it's a matter of person and experience again. In everybody's a little different situation. There's nothing right or wrong, but that it's just a different way to function. It's why you have different roles within an organization. everybody ought not to do the same thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2170.0,2190.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, Bill Johnston he was pretty. He said, Oh, I was out there with my placards in the 60s, you know, kind of like, kind of like,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2191.0,2202.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: What he did was sell out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2203.0,2203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah. So I felt like saying what happened? because he said that these guys are basically retired hippies. I thought that's pretty terrible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2204.0,2214.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's what one guy put. One INS undercover agent that was at the church when we first, declared sanctuary","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2215.0,2221.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: know, he was, you didn't know at the time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2222.0,2224.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: we assumed that somebody was there. Oh, yeah. We didn't know who it was. Said that they were aging misfits from the Vietnam era was the description","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2225.0,2242.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I do think that it is, you know, that's it. I'm sure that that data was, because I was too young to remember the 60s. A little bit, because my father was g McCarthy's campaign doctor. So I remember meeting him, but I was a little kid. That whole era had a profound influence on people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2243.0,2277.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't miss if you don't want to miss it it was a terrible time for people tore people's lives up. Anybody who looks back on a certain amount of romance just doesn't see all the shattered lives I've seen. Because it was not a good time. This is not a good time. That was not something you want to look back on with any romance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2278.0,2320.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, well, then this, this, you reach this decision yourself? This was you talk to Jim. I mean, the story goes that you said, I can't decide the elders have to decide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2321.0,2332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, that was about bringing people to the church. Yeah. But there were there were there was my own personal decision about the extent to which I'd be involved in transporting. And the other was the decision about what we were going to do as congregation. But, but both of those, the conclusion was exactly the same. I was convinced by Jim that ethically, he was absolutely right on. And it's a matter of both my professional responsibility to the church and my own personal integrity. I really had no choice except to conclude that Jim was absolutely right. And once I had to face that the conclusion was real clear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2333.0,2389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Were you able to bring your wife around to agreeing with you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2390.0,2393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, she still doesn't .","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084#t=2394.0,2396.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106084/transcript/23770/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/023/770/original/azu_ms433-010_side1_a_otter.ai.vtt?1614187755","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/023/770/original/azu_ms433-010_side1_a_otter.ai.vtt?1614187755"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - azu_ms433-010_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2552.4,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/106/085/original/azu_ms433-010_side2_a.mp3?1613582501","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mp3","duration":2552.4,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-010_side2_a edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Terrifying. We've we've had as many as 28 people in that church at one time. And, and in those days, all we had were a few people's homes and Southside Church to stash refugees. And, and God, people were living in cars, backyards. It was it was just scary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=0.0,24.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Why do you mean ... in what way scary?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=25.0,26.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, not scary, frightening, scary, just in terms of the overwhelming need. We were unable to meet with our meager resources of time and energy. And just trying to keep refugees alive. You know, the most minimal kinds of services provided for them. And, you know, if you can imagine 28 people sleeping in that church at one time, and trying to provide food and deal with all of the traumatized people that you have in that situation, you have deserters from the army and deserters from the FMLN sleeping in the same goddamn church. And you wonder whether they're going to cut each other's throat tonight, or you know, whether there's going to be a major brawl over there, or you know, what is going to happen? And you just kind of stumbled through day by day in the midst of all of that, that overwhelming need, and no time or resources to meet them with. So no, it wasn't easy, but we just kept on going.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=27.0,100.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And I guess [INAUDIBLE] it says that your wife is doing some cooking for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=101.0,108.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. Members of the Women's Association from the church provided food on a regular basis. Marianne was part of that. But the women from the church would come in every day. She ... she works? Yeah, she's a medical technologist at University Hospital. And she was doing that then too? Yeah. She had ... I'm sure she was busy. Okay, so um, I guess maybe ... Can you tell me a little bit what you thought about Jim, when you first met him? Don't say anything bad? It's hard to sort out because Jim and I have been together for so long, through an awful lot of times. What I thought about Jim when I ... I don't think I thought much about Jim when I first met him. Jim's not a kind of person who you have ... immediate ... I mean he's very quiet. And, and, you know, doesn't say anything unless you ask him. And, you know, my initial impression of Jim was that here was this quiet, retired rancher with arthritis, who cared a whole lot,  was a Quaker. So I knew what kind of folks those were. And spoke Spanish and was, was interested in helping refugees and valued him primarily for his his knowledge of Spanish and his ability to relate to refugees. That was about it. When I first met him and then my first real conversation with Jim was around the question of whether he could bring people to the church or not and it was at that point that I saw for the first time copies of his letters, like he had two or a couple of them that he'd sent out by then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=109.0,266.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: He gave them to you and ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=267.0,267.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: yeah, and all of a sudden, I said, this man is bright. And I started to pay attention because at that point, I knew that this guy was a real gem and started to ask questions and to pay attention. Yeah he's brilliant. Yeah, he's as bright as anybody I've ever run across. There are a half dozen people [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=268.0,313.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah me too. That's funny because, you know, when I asked Bill Johnston for his personal impressions of various people, he really likes you. He thinks when, well he says, he said, The thing I like about John is that he's got a sense of humor. You know, and Jim doesn't have a sense of humor. And said, well he does. But it's kind of ... More subtle. Yeah, wry or dry. Something, understated. Yeah. Because I was telling him about this bullshit thing you know ...  And he said the same thing had happened to him, he told me a story about how he was on some stakeout and he left the tape running after the stakeout was over. And then they were having this conversation in the truck kind of like cruising around. And he said something like, What the fuck is going on or something like that, and the defense attorney played the whole tape to try to make him look like ... and it actually backfired because everyone thinks, oh he's a real guy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=314.0,351.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=352.0,384.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Hard to say, whether it works for you or against you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=385.0,396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, at any rate,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=397.0,397.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, anyway. Um, this meeting in December, you? You'd pretty much ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=398.0,407.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: well, the context for that meeting, the reason for the meeting, was that an INS attorney had told Margo that to tell Jim and I that they knew what we were up to, and stop it or they would indict us. And that's the reason we pulled everybody together and had that meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=408.0,431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it was kind of like, how can we take the initiative?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=432.0,434.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, the question was, what do we do now that INS knows what we're doing? Because ... Where you trying to keep it secret? Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yes. We were doing this whole silly, top secret operation. I mean, the funniest part about it was, you know, we were using, what do we know about running a smuggling operation? Right. And, and so we had codes, call each other on payphones, all this kind of stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=435.0,467.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: To keep them from tapping ...  So there was never any thought of going to the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=468.0,468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. And then we'd forget what the hell the code was. And it was ... I can remember one time getting a telegram from Jim in Mexico, in code, right. And I read it and couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about. I got together with two or three other people. And we spent three hours I think, trying to figure out what Jim was saying, and never could. And it was over a contact? Yeah, what time he would be arriving at the border and trying to cross, how many people and what the situation was and all that kind of stuff. And we did have the foggiest idea what the hell Corbett was trying to trying to communicate to us at that point. But yeah, it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=469.0,514.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: newspapers or  I mean you didn't have any press contact,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=515.0,517.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: our press contact was all around the legal services work. And we were we were trying to develop press coverage of El Centro. The conditions of the detention center, of the fact that nobody was getting political asylum, INS abuses, all that kind of stuff. We were working hard on trying to get press coverage and basically get one story and that was it. And they'd say, well, we we wrote about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=518.0,546.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: As far as the people not getting political asylum did you ... I mean, was that ... it seemed to me like you didn't know right away that ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=547.0,553.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. We didn't know right away, but by the end of 81, we knew we'd been through enough hearings when where everybody had been turned down and then we got the statistics and also got word from people in Texas and California about what their experience was over there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=554.0,581.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So the asylum I mean, that was another consideration, as if the legal aspect wasn't working ... and it wasn't. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=582.0,590.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, that's why I bought in on Jim's ethical conclusion. Back in the last part of September, beginning of October. Um, by that point, I had realized all of that, and said Jim's ethical analysis and conclusion is exactly right: the greatest need is for them to avoid capture given INS's policies and practices.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=591.0,613.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about the legal justification for sanctuary was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=614.0,618.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I mean, no, I didn't have a big concern about that, at that point. My [INAUDIBLE] my understanding of that was the INS is in violation of international and United States law on the treatment of refugees, therefore, it's necessary for me to help them avoid capture. It was a necessity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=619.0,641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But you were aware that there was such a thing as international laws protecting refugees? Oh, yeah. The 1980 Refugee Act. I guess, since Gary's book","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=642.0,652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Gary's book was under way. And I talked to Gary extensively about all that. it was an, it was a necessity argument at that point. I didn't understand anything about civilian initiatives. Or the Geneva Conventions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=653.0,673.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: The Nuremberg Principles. None of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=674.0,677.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: It was just purely 1980 Refugee Act is international law and refugees who had [INAUDIBLE] mean that the INS is in clear violation of that law and therefor it is necessary for civilians, the church, to protect them, as long as those kinds of violations of law are occuring by the INS. That was as far as it went, at that point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=678.0,707.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, so this decision to go public? Was there, there must have been a lot of discussion about whether that was the right thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=708.0,715.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, yeah. Well, the discussion went something like, well, we only have two choices, we can we can keep on and expect to be indicted. Or we can quit. Because they know what we're doing. And it wasn't, it took about five seconds to figure we couldn't quit. [INAUDIBLE] went around the room. No, we can't quit, no, can't quit. No, can't quit. And then the discussion was, Are there any other options to just waiting for the indictment to happen? And in pressing that question, it seemed to me it seemed to us that the only option we may have other than just waiting for the indictments is go public, beat them to the punch was one of the phrases I used. But that still wouldn't keep them from indicting you.  But what what it would do at that point is is get it would enable us to have the church community and hopefully some members of the larger community understand our reasons for acting the way we did, and and INS would not interpret our indictment, and arrest first. So that the initial impression was oh golly, a bunch of clergy and, and church people have been smuggling illegal aliens into the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=716.0,811.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you'd be isolated. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=812.0,814.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: from the very beginning of that one it would be hard to say to people now let us tell it, tell you why we were doing that. It would be much easier if we went public. And then the INS had to respond one way or the other. At least folk would understand why we were doing it. And that would be the initial understanding and INS would have to be on the boards at that point, but that the initiative would be with us. And that's all we would get by it. But it was better than the other the only other choice we could see we had. And if you're down to two bad choices, you take the best of the bad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=815.0,852.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about getting support from other churches? With I mean, had you gotten support from other churches, when you were doing it in secret?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=853.0,860.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, we didn't ask for it. It was a it was a totally secret operation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=861.0,867.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you thought of getting support from other churches after you thought of going public","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=868.0,871.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We didn't think about getting support from other churches until the annual meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=872.0,874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And that's when Tim sent out the letters and whatever. Yes. So you thought of going public just on your own?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=875.0,885.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, during the congregation meeting somebody said why just us? Why don't we get other churches to join us. I said Yeah, that's a great idea. If you all vote to do this today, we'll see if other churches will join.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=886.0,901.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: so when you first thought of going public here in this meeting you had here, it was just Southside acting independently. Yeah, it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=902.0,910.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: The question was, do we have any options to just waiting for indictments? And the answer was, yes, we can go public and and beat them to the punch. Then the question was, well how do we go public? And that's where the question of sanctuary as the way of defining what we were doing publicly, was raised in this group. And that came out of a letter we got from some guy in LA, where a refugee had been chased into a church by INS and dragged out handcuffs. And, and a guy, a Lutheran guy, a minister in LA had written this letter. And we got a copy of it here in Tucson, saying, maybe the idea of church as sanctuary is something we need to think about. And I've gotten that letter, or copy of that letter a month or so before. And it was in the context of that meeting that I said, Why don't we call it sanctuary? I think that that guy may be right. And if we're gonna go public, what why don't we call it sanctuary? Everybody thought that was a good idea. And then the question was what congregation would declare themselves and public sanctuary for Central American refugees? And everybody else said, well, Southside. Come on you, you didn't volunteer, I didn't volunteer. But at the end of that meeting, I said, I'm willing to start a process here that will enable this congregation to come to a point of decision making about that. I'm willing to do that. And I think I agree with everybody else here. If there was a congregation in Tucson that was willing to do that, it was probably Southside, because of their previous decision to open the church up to undocumented refugees, because they'd had the most experience with refugees,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=911.0,1037.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you'd been introducing the refugees on Sundays ... Right, right.  I mean, the Dave Sholin, the reason he didn't, was opposed was because he thought that it would endanger the refugees. Was there, did you talk about that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1038.0,1054.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, sure. Sure. At this meeting? Oh yeah, everything got talked about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1055.0,1061.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What was, what did you what was said about that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1062.0,1065.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, basically, the conclusion was the refugees are in danger under any circumstances, if the church is public, it is only going to endanger that refugee family that we publicly receive into the sanctuary of the church. And they're going to have to do that as a matter of their decision and their ministry. And the risk is completely up to them if they think that that's a worthwhile witness, uh risk to take. So we're certainly not endangering anyone except that family that we publicly take into sanctuary. And that's their decision, we sure can't make it for them. And that's kind of the basis. The other assumption we made at that point was that once we declared the church a public sanctuary it would be absolutely useless for refugees after that, but we'd have to shift everything. And Jim and I had lots of discussions about this, that once we were public this church would have to be replaced by other congregations and churches that assumed the responsibility for the quiet secretive service to refugees. And, and that this place would be no longer useful in that regard, and it wasn't until after we declared public sanctuary that we realized, hey, the INS is avoiding us because of the public nature of this thing. And therefore we're more than useful now. But but we Jim and I both made plans to shift the function of refugees staying at this church to another, another church immediately after the public sanctuary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1066.0,1171.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you, um, so you did think of getting other churches involved? Oh yeah, by that time ...  But but that would be quiet though you wouldn't announce which other churches?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1172.0,1183.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right. And St. Mark's was already doing it quietly. First Christian Church was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1184.0,1191.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Ken Kennon's church. No, [INAUDIBLE] Because Ken Kennon had some problems with his church.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1192.0,1200.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: But but we were we were already talking about shifting the bases to someplace else because our assumption was [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1201.0,1211.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And they did start avoiding the church. I mean, at least green cars didn't ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1212.0,1216.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We, we never saw them within a two block radius at this church after that public announcement until '84 and they just stayed away. And we got the word from inside INS that that was a policy procedure. So we just took advantage of it. Yeah. Go ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1217.0,1243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Was there fear that you all might be arrested if you ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1244.0,1245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We assumed we were gonna be arrested. When we went public.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1246.0,1248.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Either way. When you went public? Yeah. Like, as soon as?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1249.0,1252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I assumed that maybe the Border Patrol and INS would show up at that press conference and, and arrest us. And we'd be into a court process at that point. Listen, since March 24 of 82. I've expected every day to be arrested or indicted. It's just something you live with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1253.0,1274.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it wasn't such a big surprise? No. But what about Cruz? Did you ever suspect? That he was a mole?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1275.0,1283.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Sure. We had discussions as early as August of '84? About Cruz and Nixon and Graham.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1284.0,1290.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I know because when you see Nixon on the stand, I think how could they have been fooled by these guys? We weren't. You know, they're so ... Nixon has narc written all over him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1291.0,1301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We weren't. But our decision at that point was, how are we going to know? And anyway, the only way we're ever going to prevent INS from from infiltrating us is by becoming a secret organization and no longer being the church. And we're not going to do that. We, we, and along with our decision to be open was that discussion about Cruz and Nixon and Graham, saying, look, what we're gonna do is screen them off from any details about where and when we're doing crossings. And and about where refugees are in the Tucson area. And and that's why they didn't pick up any refugees in Tucson. [INAUDIBLE]. Because we just didn't give them that information. Any meeting they were at we talked about people's situation and made decisions that that a small group: Bill, Peg, myself and Jim would would meet later and work out the details.  So that's why they didn't get any firsthand information out of Tucson about any of those details. And we had, we had [INAUDIBLE]. We just didn't know for sure. But what were we gonna do? Throw Nixon down and body search him? That's what he expected you to do. Yeah I know, we said ah, that's silly. We can't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1302.0,1402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, there's often it seems like, you know, the judge or, you know, the people who are opposed to Sanctuary, they kind of say, well, I don't mind them doing it. But just that they flaunted it. Yeah, that was what, that's what I mean ... it's okay for Christians to be Christians, but they're not supposed to, to, you know, brag about what they're doing or something that seems to be the big criticism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1403.0,1427.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't think it was so much we were bragging about what we were doing. But that we were openly declaring that the INS was in violation of the law, and that we were quite publicly saying that we were assisting refugees and transporting them to places of sanctuary and doing it quite publicly. That became a source of embarrassment for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1428.0,1465.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But you felt they would have indicted you either way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1466.0,1468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: As soon as we went public.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1469.0,1470.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: If you hadn't gone public ... was there any thought of well, if we don't go public, they won't indict us?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1471.0,1474.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, no, no. There ... we assumed that they would indict us back in December of '81. In fact that was the word we got.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1475.0,1489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Supposedly, Jim's picture was on the wall in every border patrol station.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1490.0,1496.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: We heard that. Now, the the problem for INS was, was not initially that we went public. It was that the sanctuary movement continued to be public and continued to be a source of embarrassment for them. And that was a cumulative effect over a period of two to three years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1497.0,1525.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I mean, I think they were probably hoping it would just die.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1526.0,1527.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, their strategy. We know what their strategy was, because we had people from inside INS who were very sympathetic to us tell us that the word came from Washington, that their attitude towards sanctuary from March 24 of 82 on was one of: ignore them and they'll go away. We don't want to create martyrs for an issue. And they tried that for as long as they thought they possibly could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1528.0,1557.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, because there's definitely a two year hiatus in there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1558.0,1563.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: that's right. And that was a deliberate policy decision on their part. And the word came from Washington, and it was a smart strategy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1564.0,1572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I guess they were thinking that it was just, Southside would just go off on, would just die right here. Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1573.0,1578.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: And the reason we didn't is that we had a very exciting story that attracted journalists and reporters. And we kept taking them with us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1579.0,1596.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Jim said they have this never ending desire to see border crossings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1597.0,1601.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right. That's right. And we did it. We were using each other at that point. We needed them to keep the story of the refugees in the public eye. They needed us because we were real exciting story to put on the cover.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1602.0,1624.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, well you know, white people ...  It got ... putting themselves in jeopardy ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1625.0,1631.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, it got twisted that point, because everybody who came wanted to write the story about civil disobedience, and defying the Border Patrol and all that kind of stuff. We did it because we needed to continue to have the story of the refugees told. So that the awareness of the public ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1632.0,1654.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: what it ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1655.0,1655.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Plus each each time a church declared sanctuary in a metropolitan area. It was big news, it was front page news. And every time that happened, all those reporters and journalists would call Washington and asked INS, What are you doing about these people? What is going on here? These people are publicly doing something you say is a violation of the law.   What do you have to say about that? When are you going to arrest them? When are you going to indict them. And INS was just constantly having to fend off those kinds of embarrassing questions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1656.0,1691.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, because that was what Reno said in his press conference after the, you know, after the verdict. He was saying, you know, you people in the media, what did you expect us to do? Kind of like,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1692.0,1704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That was part of it, that's finely why, finally tipped the, tipped the scales and they held off all '84 once that decision was made in '84, they held off during the presidential election campaign until after the election.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1705.0,1720.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, which they'd never admit. Yeah but it's quite obvious. Yeah ... well on the day of the indictment what happened? You were here? Yeah. What time of day was it? Eight o' clock in the morning, right in the morning. And who, who knocked on the door?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1721.0,1735.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't know who the guys were. One was a border patrol agent in uniform. And the other guy was a, like plain-clothes INS agent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1736.0,1744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And they didn't, go into the church though?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1745.0,1746.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. That was all I was thinking about that morning. They came knocked on the door, and I saw them out there. And I said oh, shit. Don't quote me on that. I opened the door and said come in, they went in, and I said you guys want a cup of coffee? I was stalling for as long as I could. Because what I figured was people over at the church would see the car it was a marked border patrol car in front of the house here and and get the refugees the hell out. And I wanted to keep them here for two hours if I could. And I bet they thought I was crazy. Because I kept saying, you know, they said well, we got to we got an indictment here for you. You just sign the papers and we'll leave and I said no, no, I want to read the papers and I got have questions for you guys. And I'm going on and on. And I'm sure that they were figuring them this guy is out of his mind. All I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1747.0,1808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: They didn't have a search warrant for your house, no search warrants here at all? It's interesting that they didn't even search your house. Because they searched Sister Darlene's place. That's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1809.0,1820.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: But this house is owned by the church. And I'm sure they didn't want to tangle with that whole question of, of search warrants for churches or ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1821.0,1830.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: so this is still church property? Yeah. Yeah, they still don't you know, as evidenced by,  with the attempts to find witnesses. Yeah. And Jim was lucky.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1831.0,1842.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You bet he was. So anyway I stalled them as long as they could. And finally, they just kind of said, We gotta go, we gotta go, you know, and I said no stick around, have another cup of coffee. Finally, they left and I ran, I ran out the back door and in the back door of the church. But they pulled out. They didn't go over to the church at all? They didn't go to the church at all. And then I ran for the telephone to call, Jim. Jim, you won't believe what just happened down here, he's sitting there. Well, there's a couple of border patrol cars out in front of my old house out here. I'm sitting here watching him. I said, What are you doing, Jim? He said, well I'm drinking coffee and watching the dogs hold them off in the yard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1843.0,1890.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: They surrounded his whole trialer that they hadn't lived in for two years. Jim was just. Boy.  All the way through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1891.0,1898.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I said, Well, what else are you doing? He said, Well, I'm getting all the papers together and getting them out of here. So he just boxed everything up. Out it went.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1899.0,1912.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Lucky, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1913.0,1913.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, it was it was it was very fortunate. We were lucky that morning on a lot of counts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1914.0,1922.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I guess that they didn't get Juana.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1923.0,1924.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yep. They didn't get Juana. [INAUDIBLE] Yeah, they went to the wrong place at Jim's. We were real fortunate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1925.0,1938.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: They knew she was at, they went to Kay Kelly's and she had stayed overnight at a friend's house. So they went to Sister Darlene's place, Kay's, Jim's. Were there other ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1939.0,1948.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: They had search warrants for those three places.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1949.0,1950.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And no other? That I know of. Okay, well, I guess that's all I can think of right now. Oh, yeah, Jim told me that he feels like he's aged a whole lot in the past three or four years. I mean, just his physical appearance and everything. Do you feel that way about yourself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1951.0,1992.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh yeah. We were looking at a picture, you know, going through some family pictures, and we were laughing about that, how much greyer I've got in the last five years. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. It's certainly true in my case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=1993.0,2013.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, it must be a lot of even if you don't, must be a lot of pressure. On the unconscious, even if you don't consciously feel it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2014.0,2026.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You feel it all the way around. And the pressure has been enormous, not from INS or the federal government. That's been negligible, the whole way through. Wasn't something I cared much about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2027.0,2044.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Even throughout the trial and stuff?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2045.0,2047.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: The pressure has always been on the lives of the refugees. And that pressure is enormous. We've been in the situation and still are, of having just the life and death needs of the refugees outstrip any kind of resources we can bring to bear on it. Are are having to make choices about where we apply those resources to the exclusion of what people and at the same time being involved in real high risk situations, if any of those refugees get picked up. And that's the pressure, that's putting the terrible difficult choices you have to make all the time about who you're going to help and who you're not going to help. And knowing you're going to be wrong some of the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2048.0,2108.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And also their, that their problems seem so I mean, how can you help somebody who's had their entire family ... you know it's like, they're so traumatized. Even getting them here is like no solution. There's no way to make somebody feel better. I mean, it must be, Ken Kennon was telling me that the burnout factor is real hight, people can't do that kind of work for very long.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2109.0,2145.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's true. Except an awful lot of people have been at it for a long time. Actually the burnout factor, in this kind of thing, in my experience has been just a real temporary phenomenon. People hit the wall and burnout and then are back at it the next week, just because they can't quit. So every one of us has hit the wall burned out a myriad of times over the last five years. Go right back at it. It isn't one of those ... very, very few people burnout and quit and say, I can't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2146.0,2192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I guess Kathy Flaherty, she quit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2193.0,2196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, she didn't really, no. Kathy was here for a year. I mean, she came saying, I'll give you a year. And she gave us the whole year. It was time for her to get back to Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2197.0,2209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I mean, as far as going through with the trial,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2210.0,2211.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, well, that wasn't burnout. That was that was a matter of her personal situation with her fiance, that kind of stuff. Personal need, saying I can't spend a year in Tucson going on trial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2212.0,2237.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Did you have any kind of agreement or that you would go through with the trial? There was never Yes, I've I promised not to [INAUDIBLE] or anything?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2238.0,2252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Everybody's free to make their own choice. [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2253.0,2263.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you were all offered plea? Pleas?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2264.0,2268.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, everybody [INAUDIBLE] Well I guess there were two points. One was earlier than August. Right after the indictment were were all offered a plea [INAUDUBLE] Then there was another one in August right before the trial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2269.0,2282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So they just wanted you to plead guilty? Oh yeah, that's all they've ever wanted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2283.0,2287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: All they've ever wanted is for us to acknowledge that, that we were in violation of the law. They would have been delighted with with that. That would have vindicated them. And that's the one thing we can't do. Under any circumstances. I don't care if they'd offered me, to give me the Presidential Medal of Freedom. The Nobel Peace Prize Yeah, whatever, to admit I was in violation of the law. It's the one thing I couldn't do. Still can't. That was just that's what would have delighted them. That's all they've ever wanted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2288.0,2332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And that's the biggest misunderstanding I think that people have about sanctuary is that it is civil disobedience. And I guess this, you know, this Chicago figure that doesn't make any difference whether you say it is or it isn't?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2333.0,2347.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, no, it's a matter of it's a matter of ideology with Chicago. The United States governmental system is absolutely corrupt, and therefore one must be civilly disobedient in all of life. It's a matter of faith for them","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2348.0,2366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: to have a system [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2367.0,2372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: If it's absolutely corrupt, then if you're going to be faithful at all, you've got to be absolutely civil, civilly disobedient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2373.0,2382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Of course, there's a lot of hypocrisy in that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2383.0,2384.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: to an absolutely corrupt system, it goes with ideology.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2385.0,2397.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: but it seems like you I guess Dave Sholin was saying that he thought that it would maybe be more, that the legal change ... you know, what is the best way to change the system? And he didn't necessarily think that sanctuary was the best way to change it. [INAUDIBLE] Do you think it, I mean, he said it was more of a religious, he thinks sanctuary is more of a religious statement as opposed to something that will really help change the system? What do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2398.0,2431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I think we're in the happy position of having it be [INAUDIBLE]. It's the most effective way of change, of bringing about social change. It is legal and it is moral all at the same time. I don't I don't see any conflict there that comes I mean, I went back in the fall of 82 to Washington to work on the legislative agenda and the response I got from everybody was well you may be right, but it's not an issue with my people or anybody else. If it ever becomes an issue come back and talk to me,  but forget it we've got much more important things take care of in Congress than something nobody knows anything about. Social change has never occurred without the confrontation. And the legislative end of it always follows.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2432.0,2498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Years later. Of course. I mean, it seems like this DeConcini-Moakley Bill, lovely idea you know but what's happened to it?I just like ... I mean even my mom I guess, Gerry Studds is her congressman and he's pretty much as liberal lefty as you can go but he's like it's a non issue you're right. You know, the constituents don't care and and so they're not going to do anything because illegals don't vote.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2499.0,2528.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: So, you know, my position is that without sanctuary it would not be an issue at all that Congress would even look at, vote for. Especially given the political ...  Okay. Well, thanks","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085#t=2529.0,2531.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/37110/file/106085/transcript/63011/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/011/original/azu_ms433-010_side2_a_edited.vtt?1704473970","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/011/original/azu_ms433-010_side2_a_edited.vtt?1704473970"}]}]}]}