{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/wp9t14wq4t/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["David Obey"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 2, tape 32"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Obey, David R. (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1999-03-04"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with David Obey conducted by Julie Ferdon. Obey discusses working with Morris Udall as a former Congressman from Wisconsin."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.028 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with David Obey conducted by Julie Ferdon. Obey discusses working with Morris Udall as a former Congressman from Wisconsin."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - azu_ms396-028_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":1983.072,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/304/original/azu_ms396-028_side1_a.mp3?1744847844","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1983.072,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is another in the Morris K Udall oral history project. Today is Thursday, March 4, and we're in the office of Congressman David Obie of the seventh District of Wisconsin. Congressman Obie, I'd like to thank you for participating in this project, and especially given that you have a cold and it's been a busy day. I'd like to start, I'm just going to to be expedient here, just to put a little background information in that you were, you were born in on october 3, 1938 and got your bachelor's degree from the University of Wisconsin, followed by a master's degree in Russian government and foreign policy. Then in from 62 to 69 you were a member the Wisconsin assembly, and were assistant Minority Leader for two of those years. Weren't you? Okay? All right, you were, you were first elected to Congress in a special election in 1969","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=0.0,68.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: April Fool's Day of 1969 oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=69.0,76.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 31 years old, or something. I was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=77.0,78.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 3030, so you were pretty,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=79.0,80.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: pretty young guy. I was the youngest","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=81.0,82.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: person in the house at that time. Four years later, Tom Downey put me to shame. He got elected at age 25","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=83.0,90.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: is that right? When the year before you were elected, Mo Udall had had run, made an unprecedented challenge against Speaker John McCormick for the for the speakership of the house. And was, of course, you know, beaten resoundingly. You came in in 1969 and I noticed a quote in David broders book The changing of the guard, that of you having come into the seniority system and not liking it, quote, unquote, one damn bit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=91.0,127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I never, I never had a problem seniority system. I always thought that that was as good a way as any to prevent money and ego from determining who was going to be a committee chairman. The problem when we got here is that there was no safety valve in the system, and the committee chairs were unaccountable, and so the guts of the reform movement that we participated in spun around the idea of making the unaccountable power centers in this place more accountable by making the committee chairs stand for election. The steering committee, we changed the nominating process so that the nominating process was by a new steering committee, rather than by the Ways and Means Committee, which had been controlled by Wilbur Mills, because the Ways and Means Committee used to do it. And instead, the idea was, have the speaker be the head of the steering and Policy Committee, have the steering committee nominate the chairs normally would be by seniority, but if somebody had an objection, then you could have a vote on that Chairman as a safety valve, and if they lost, then you'd have a new election. So we were not trying to overturn the seniority system. We were trying to build some safety valves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=128.0,220.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You and were you and Mo working together on","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=221.0,223.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: this? Yeah. I mean, this is generally a democratic study group issue. Dick Conlon was the driving force as the staffer for the DSG and Tom Foley myself, Jack Bingham, Dick bowling. Dick bowling was really one of the engineers. He wrote two books, one power in the house, and the other, a house out of order, suggesting that if the Democrats wanted to make the party work, they ought to. They ought to make their caucus work, and because their progressives were in a majority in the caucus, and Moe, at the same time, was the person who had most visibly challenged the rigidity of the old system by running against McCormick, who had been a fine leader in his day, But was well past his prime by that point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=224.0,282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So Moe, by virtue of that, sort of became the the leader of the movement, in a sense he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=283.0,289.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was. There were a lot of leaders in the movement. I don't think you can say there was any one leader, but it was a collective of Mo and Dick. Bowling and Jim O'Hara and Don Fraser, Phil Burton, later on, myself, Tom Foley, Frank Thompson, mall sort of became everybody's favorite figure because he had guts enough to to take it on at the leadership level, when, when, when nobody else did well","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=290.0,322.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the following year and after the year after your election, he ran for majority leader against Boggs, right and lost in the Democratic caucus. I guess 140 to 88 is the figures I had. Do you remember that race? Or sure do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=323.0,340.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean I was involved in it. I was supporting Moe campaign forum. Sam Gibbons was sort of the campaign chair for Mo. And mo lost for one simple reason. Hale Boggs was regarded as an insider. He had a leadership office already, members would be called in to talk to Hale Boggs, and they'd be in the ornate leadership offices which conveyed the message power. And you know, Mo was a rank and file member on the interior committee didn't have any visible perks or evidences of power. And so mo started out a yard behind, because people knew that the odds were that that Boggs would win it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=341.0,390.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now I had, I had heard that McCormick still smarting for Moe running against him. Had made some calls campaigning against him. Were you aware of that at","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=391.0,398.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: all? I do not have any personal knowledge of that, but I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=399.0,408.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What do you think? Do you think the system, the way it was, Has has been fatally injured? I mean, have the reforms that needed to be undergone?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=409.0,422.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I mean, the reforms that we needed to pass were reforms that essentially gave the caucus an opportunity to overturn an arbitrary Chairman if they needed to, and that's in place now, but that will never happen unless the leadership exercises its power. They have been very reluctant to through the years. They did. The first year the reforms passed three three committee chairs were dumped, and it was not really because of their philosophy, it was because of their arrogance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=423.0,458.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now what, approximately, what year was that that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=459.0,462.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was in the I think it was what, when the Watergate class came in at 74 so it was in December seven, December 74 January, 75 whenever the caucus was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=463.0,476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and do you recall the three chairmen who were, yeah, they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=477.0,480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: dumped Pogue as chairman of the Agriculture Committee. They dumped right Pat but as Chairman of banking and they dumped Eddie a bear as Chairman of the Armed Services Committee. They also tried to dump Wayne Hayes as chairman of the House Administration Committee, but he managed to beat that back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=481.0,499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is before, before you began Congress. But harkening back a little bit. Mo, took on Adam Clayton Powell in a chairmanship role in, I believe it was 67 was that sort of the beginning? Got the ball rolling a little bit","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=500.0,512.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well. Mo, I mean, that was Moe, trying to demonstrate that if you did not clean up your own house that then somebody else would do it for you. And because Paul was not disciplined, the Republicans and others in the house, other conservatives led the effort to simply remove Paul from the house period, Moe didn't believe in that. Moe felt that the seat was the power of the constituents to give, and the chairmanship was the power of the caucus to give, and that if the caucus met its responsibility, then the house would not get into the dangerous position of removing individuals from from office. But Paul screwed that one up himself by choosing to make it a much more personal and nasty fight than need be, and so so he wound up being bounced until the Supreme Court said, no, no, you can't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=513.0,584.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So, so 30 years, almost exactly 30 years after you came to Congress, most son Mark and nephew Tom Udall have just been elected. Do you think they will? Will, they will see a much better and different system than you and Moe did when you came.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=585.0,605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The place is better in that it's not run by a few arrogant, old reactionary bulls. It is worse because the way politics is practiced in this country is worse today. So the house, institutionally, in terms of its its rules, is better. But you have to understand, when Newt Gingrich came to this Congress 18 years ago, he started from day one with the idea that he was willing to destroy the place in order to change it, and he was busy sending out lists of nasty, negative, pejorative terms that should be used to describe Democrats, words like traitors and corrupt, decaying and so for 18 years, he and his cohorts poisoned the well. I said when Moe retired that it was ironic that he retired at about the same time that Lee Atwater died, because Lee Atwater practiced the politics of personal assassination, of character assassination and personal destruction, slash and burn and MOA practiced a very different kind of politics. The politics has become very much nastier and meaner, even though the house, the houses rules, are less out of touch than they were years ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=606.0,699.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I should note that we were both coming from Moe's memorial service held today in Washington, DC, and I appreciated your comments that Moe would be horrified were he to see what were happening and what was happening in Congress today. And I have to think, as you mentioned, it wouldn't be happening if he were here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=700.0,722.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, you never know. I don't think any one man could have prevented it. The Gingrich speakership really made inevitable. A lot of things that happened in this place, but Newt is gone now, and we have a chance to see whether there will be a new a new style","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=723.0,742.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: moving moving ahead a couple of years here in 1976 mo ran for president. However, four years before that, on May 17, 1972 a number of members of Congress signed a petition in encouraging him to run, supporting his presidential bid. Do you recall who started the petition? Who passed it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=743.0,769.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, the petition, that the only petition I remember is the one that you know are that Royce and I started, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=770.0,777.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it was you. And who else? Henry, Royce, okay and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=778.0,782.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: excuse me. We got 44 signatures on that. I think I have copies of that stuff here. Here, it's the initial these, the initial people who signed it. That's not the entire list, but it wasn't four years ago. And I mean, it wasn't four years earlier. It was, wasn't no, no, no, it was for the 7076 election.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=783.0,822.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I have it as 1972 but I'm incorrect here. It was 74 right. And the paper that you've handed Maine cup, says, As of November 27 1974 right. And one two, but I thought I had, that's about 44 members on this one, the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=823.0,848.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: New York Times ran a story listing 27 people that we'd gotten, but that was we released the story after we hit 27 but we we gathered more signatures after that. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=849.0,863.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you might get a copy of this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=864.0,864.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: for the argument. That's the New York Times story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=865.0,867.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, what? What led you to do this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=868.0,874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I mean, frankly, a lot of us knew that Mo was least thinking about running for president. And we talked to Terry Bracy and suggested that we concluded that it'd be good if we just circulated a letter to see how much, you know, wanted no other the idea of a House member running for president could pass the laugh test. So he uh. And so we set about trying to find out. And, I mean, we just looked at the field and figured, what the hell Mo was better than anybody else in the race, and he was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=875.0,918.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what was 44 the final signature count, pretty much, okay, um, what, what had, what had changed, where in the I mean, it was fairly unprecedented for someone to run from the house. Had anything changed? Or was this a personality thing with I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=919.0,936.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was a testimony simply to his personal excellence. He nobody else in the house could have done it. He was the only person with the personality. I mean, he was, he was the house's version of Hubert Humphrey, but he was a more modern version, and without all of the scars of Johnson's war and all of that. And I think it was a combination of the fact that he was people couldn't help but comment that he looked rough, hewn like Lincoln, that he he had a great record in terms of the environment. And those were, that was the day of, you know, these were the days of Earth Day and things like that. That Gaylord Nelson had just started, the environmental movement was in its heyday, and and Mo having led on, on the war as well, and being one of the leaders in campaign finance reform after the Nixon scandals. So he was, he was a he was a natural.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=937.0,1013.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did you follow his the campaign itself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1014.0,1016.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, yeah, I went a lot of states for both. Did you on the lecture circuit or speaking fundraising, just on the stump, standing in for him. I remember I stood in for mo in Maine at a forum that Ed muskie moderated. Rosalind Carter stood in for Jimmy Carter. Stood in in Iowa, in ED ms vinsky's district. First time I ever heard Jimmy Carter speak, and I came back home doubly convinced he should never be president after I heard him speak, because his speech was so loaded with anti institutional malarkey that I thought, my God, you know, this guy will never be able to convince anybody knows how to run a railroad,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1017.0,1064.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as I recall, he was also started in Iowa by being put it this way, not, not terribly specific on the issues. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1065.0,1073.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, there's no question he was, he was vague on the issues. And I campaigned in Massachusetts, campaigned in Pennsylvania, number of other states, Michigan, Wisconsin. What do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1074.0,1089.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What do you think went wrong with the campaign that mo didn't win a single primary or caucus? Well, I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1090.0,1096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think he went a lot further than people had a right to expect because, first of all, as a House member, he had no fundraising base, he had no he had no experience running even statewide, much less nationally. And it's a very different breed of cat to put on that kind of a campaign. And I think it was largely just the inexperience of a team showing that had never put together a national effort before. In spite of that fact, they came within 1% the number of in a number of states. And if they'd had more money, I have no doubt that they would have won Wisconsin and won Michigan and won Ohio. I think if Mowat had, if Mowat had an extra million dollars, he'd have won those three states. I'm convinced of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1097.0,1146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So it was inexperienced combined with lack of money. Basically, how do you think he would have been as president? He could have","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1147.0,1154.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: been terrific. I mean, he he was not a detailed person when it came to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1155.0,1165.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: politics, but he was very much he encountered with the antithesis, a member in Maine Rosalynn said that they should support Jimmy, because he was, he was a nuclear engineer, and he had an engineer's training, and therefore knew how to build things. And I said, Look at Washington doesn't need a tinkering engineer. It needs a leader. I mean, it doesn't need some. He knows how to deal with a screwdriver. He needs somebody who knows how to feel it in his fingertips. And he would have just, I mean, he would have his, he would have charmed the country just like Kennedy did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1166.0,1212.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. He returned to Congress after after his presidential race, and became extremely productive, just produced a huge amount of legislation after that. When did you first notice the effects of Parkinson's disease?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1213.0,1238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I remember, after he fell, we used to go to the same New Year's Eve party every year at Bob kastenmeier's house. Dave Broder, my wife and I, Mo and Ella and Bob Eckert. Phil Burton, Ben Rosenthal, people like that, Don Edwards. And I remember being stunned the year after he fell at how poorly Moe looked. And now that I don't really remember when I first realized it, when","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1239.0,1283.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: he fell and broke his arms, yeah, okay, this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1284.0,1286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was after that. And I thought, God, he just isn't looking good at all. I really think he had it in the 76 campaign. And I think the first time that it made that mole started to wonder it was in Milwaukee he was supposed to be shooting baskets for a campaign event with one of the members of the Milwaukee Bucks for a media shot. And there he was in his gym, Jim shorts and shirt, and he was missing basket after basket after basket, and he would just upset as hell about it. And he said, I just don't understand this. He said, My God, I've never done this badly in my life. He said, I'm not, you know? He said, It's not the presses here. God, I've just never had a streak like this. And I'm convinced even then that it had bitten him in subtle ways that didn't become apparent until later. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1287.0,1345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I remember during the 76 campaign, he was having real problems with just keeping up with the schedule. Not to say that wouldn't be unusual, it was a very tough schedule, but I personally remember them having to pare down schedules for him, and I also suspect it was showing showing up by then. When did there ever come a time where, where you thought maybe he needed to step down?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1346.0,1373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I had a talk with Foley about it, and George Miller about it, because in conferences, people were getting concerned that the staff was starting to make decisions that mo wouldn't have made. And I didn't know enough about what was going on to know that or not, but I knew that Mo was slipping fast, and I didn't I didn't think that mall should ever have to face what had happened to other committee chairmen around here, and I remember having a conversation with George Miller, a conversation with Tom Foley, and at one point I thought I might be the guy stuck with the job of telling mo that he ought to think about retiring, but Foley decided to do it himself, which is the right way to do it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1374.0,1433.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was appropriate. How did he take it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1434.0,1437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I wasn't there. I don't know, but I mean, the minute Tom talked to him about it, Beau, you know, within days, said, Okay. I mean, I, I cannot think of anybody else who would have done that. Most guys would have said, To hell with you. You know, I'm sticking","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1438.0,1460.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as a in 19 in 1980 Mo, did consider running for president again briefly? Were you a part of that at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1461.0,1470.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I remember. We're talking about it a little bit, but I frankly don't remember much about it. I know that, you know, everything was a possibility in 1980 but Kennedy, sort of, you know, Kennedy jumped in early, and then people were looking at Moe as a possible alternative to Teddy. Two people he started looking at mostly were muskie and. And and Mondale. And I remember having a conversation with Mondale after he'd come back from China. Fritz and I were good friends, and after he'd had a meeting with a number of members, he called me aside. He says, come on up. I want to talk to you about something. And we sat down in his office, and he started talking about he said, you know, just won't believe what these bastards are doing to me. I said, What? Well, they said, you know, Teddy's out there running against Carter. I'm trying to defend the president and and yet Carter staff, people are out cutting me up with the press. He said, They don't think Teddy can win, but they're afraid Teddy will cut Carter up enough that people will start saying, well, muskie or Mondale. And so they're trying to cut me up enough so that I'm not a viable alternative. So they're telling the press that I, you know, I'm really not keyed into the decisions that Jimmy, Jimmy has been saying. I'm keyed in on the that he just been saying that to be nice, blah, blah, blah. And that's, you know, another occasion where I saw up close, what I didn't like about the Carter operation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1471.0,1586.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: just as a Gen a couple of last general questions, what lasting effect if Any, do you think that that mo had on the House of Representatives? What is his legacy here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1587.0,1605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know. How, if anybody has a lasting effect, you know? I guess maybe, you know, even Joe Canada was the most powerful of them all. I mean, what effect is he after? Maybe it's buried in the precedent somewhere, but that's about it. I think the best you can do is to have an effect on your times and on the people who you mentor along the way. And hope you know that that filters on down. And as someone said today, I'm always mentor to a lot of people in this place. I mean, he was, he was this party has a big division between people who think that we should be focusing on equity issues and people who think that we should be don't talk about equity, just talk about macroeconomic wonderfulness. And mole would sure as hell be on the side of equity, and he would not let the democratic. You would not find mole walking around here as a new Democrat. He was a very new Democrat in those days, but new in the sense of energy, knew, in the sense of ideas, not new in the sense that you had to, you had to remake yourself, in the Pat Caddell tradition, into something that you really weren't. Moe didn't believe in a new brand of coke. He he, and he believed in that the Democratic Party was the vehicle that fought for economic and social justice. And he believed that, you know, that that the system ought to be set up so that money didn't didn't rule. I think if mo had stayed around and stayed healthy, we might have had a hell a lot better opportunity to get rational changes in campaign financing, rather than the baloney that's passed for campaign finance reform the last eight or 10 years, because mo understood that, you know, that problems were far different than conventional wisdom was focused on at that point. And I think just generally, he was in favor of on the level government. He was not a he didn't belong to the manipulative schools. I just think it's open straight from the shoulder. Politics was his best legacy and substantive legacy. You know, it's it's all around you, and what he did for the environment,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1606.0,1783.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what we talk a lot about in those strengths, what would you say was his greatest weakness?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1784.0,1791.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Somebody else asked me that too. I always think your strength is your weakness. I. Yes, mull strength was his good heartedness. His weakness was that people might sometimes try to take advantage of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1792.0,1808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Mull tried to assume best motives from other people, because that's what he wanted assumed about himself, and he knew sometimes that it get him caught in a sucker trap, but it's like passing out dollars to the homeless. Sure, you know that a good percentage of the time you're probably being taken but you know that's still worth it if you're helping some poor bastard. And I think that's the way Moe approached legislating. I think as I if you could have taken him and Dick bowling and Jim O'Hara and wrapped them all together, you would have had a perfect legislator bowling had a phenomenal sense of power and sense of how you knit together coalitions. And O'Hara was an incredible detail. Man down to the last word he would where the commas were placed. And Mo was the great concept, you know, the great motivator and the great moral force. And you know, each of them had shortcomings. Bowling was that he had such a prickly personality, and O'Hara was that he was such a wonderful inside person, but had no real outside visibility, even though he was a great legislator. So, you know, you even Michael Jordan couldn't be an all star in more than one sport.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1809.0,1925.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah, that's a good analogy. Well, that's all I have. Do you have anything you'd like to add? Or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1926.0,1933.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think so. It's just that, you know, I think he and Stu together. I were a remarkable contribution that one family made to this country and this party, and I just wish to hell that we had somebody of anywhere near most quality on the horizon today, as standard bearer, we've got some good people, but I don't think they can move the country the way mo could have if he'd had the chance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1934.0,1972.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Maybe there'll be some new folks coming next, next time around, maybe. Well, thank you very much for your time. Thank.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304#t=1973.0,1975.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146509/file/270304/transcript/78623/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/623/original/azu_ms396-028_side1_a.vtt?1744914160","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/623/original/azu_ms396-028_side1_a.vtt?1744914160"}]}]}]}