{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/w08w952q61/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John Anderson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 1, tape 20"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Anderson, John B. (John Bayard), 1922-2017 (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-08-07"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with John Anderson conducted by Julie Ferdon. Anderson discusses involvement in Congress, as well as Udall's involvement in the House of Representatives, along with other Senators and Representatives they interacted with."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.001 (uid)","MS396.002 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with John Anderson conducted by Julie Ferdon. Anderson discusses involvement in Congress, as well as Udall's involvement in the House of Representatives, along with other Senators and Representatives they interacted with."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - azu_ms396-001_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2712.6,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/268/original/azu_ms396-001_side1_a.mp3?1744847740","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2712.6,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good morning. It's August 7, 1998 and we're at the Arizona Inn in Tucson, Arizona. I'm Julie for Don, and I'd like to welcome former Congressman John Anderson to another in a series of oral history interviews that form the Morris K Udall oral history project. Thank you, Congressman Anderson, for joining us. Let's start with some biographical information. When were you born?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=0.0,28.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was born February 15, 1922 in Rockford, Illinois. See,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=29.0,35.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's the same year. Mo was born exactly to the day, four months earlier, that's great. Where did you go to college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=36.0,44.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I first attended the University of Illinois and got my bachelor's degree, and then my education was interrupted, as was two of so many back in that period, because I got my degree in 42 interrupted by the war. So I came back after the war, and then I received a law degree from the University of Illinois at JD. And then, after being in practice several years, I decided to pursue graduate study in law, and received a fellowship to attend the Harvard Law School graduate program, and emerged in 1949 from that institution. Did you have a Master, Master of Laws? Okay, was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=45.0,98.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: there a specialty, a legal specialty? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=99.0,101.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I really labor law was one subject that I pursued and had given some thought to using that as the possible foundation for labor law practice. But generally I took, I took other courses as well federal jurisdiction under Henry Hart, the late Henry Hart. I took an international law course with Louis Soane. I believe so it was, it was a program they had for people who wanted to get an advanced degree in law and to the degree that there was any specialization that would have been the labor law field.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=102.0,149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I believe that's what mo taught briefly, not long after he graduated from law school, while at Harvard, I understand you taught at Northeastern Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=150.0,164.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to supplement my fellowship stipend, I was recruited to teach a course in real estate law, specifically real estate titles at Northeastern University, law school, which is still in existence, and that was just a one semester course that I gave. And then, actually, I didn't get back to teaching law until some years after I had left the Congress, I taught some political science courses, initially starting with Stanford, and then I went to my own alma mater, the University of Illinois. Taught a post world war two history course. I taught at Brandeis for a semester. I was a visitor at Bryn Mawr, lecturing at that time on arms control, because that was very much a topic back in the mid 80s because of salt one and salt two. And then I gravitated into the legal teaching profession. And 87 was the first year, I believe, and that I have now pursued with some well, with regularity each year and one semester, and you are teaching again this fall at NOVA, Nova Southeastern University Law School.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=165.0,250.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And what are you teaching there? Now, I teach two","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=251.0,252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: courses, constitutional law and electoral process, the latter being a course that deals with such questions as reapportionment law, how districts are created, and the legal problems, particularly that have arisen in recent years because of an effort to represent minorities, they have drawn race based districts that have been struck down now about four or five times by the US Supreme Court and we talk about campaign finance law, another important Supreme Court decision came out that launched this whole spending splurge as far as soft money is concerned. K. That came out of the Senatorial Campaign way back in 1986 in the state of Colorado, Tim worth was running for the Senate, and I forget who his Republican opponent was. Worth lost, but anyway, out of that came a lawsuit involving the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee poured a lot of money into worths opponent, opponents campaign, and a suit was brought on the grounds that it violated the FICA, the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 as amended in 1974 I think it was that Mo and I had worked together when we were both in the Congress and the Court struck down the objection and upheld the fact that party Money, money coming from The Republican Party in Washington through the channel of the Senatorial Campaign Committee had been poured into this particular race, and said that that didn't that was outside the purview of the Federal Election Campaign Act, didn't violate any provisions of that act, because it was party money that was being used to advance the party's interests in the state of Colorado. And so out of that was spawned this title wave of soft money that played the 1996 elections, and unless this Shays man bill that passed this week in the House of Representatives can somehow pass the Senate and become law. The situation will","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=253.0,408.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: continue. Will stay the same. I want to ask you a lot about the campaign finance law in a minute. Let's back up just a little bit. You worked in the Foreign Service for a few years. Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=409.0,421.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I, after i i was still somewhat unsettled as to my career plans, and decided not to go into teaching, which normally you would do upon being granted a Master of Laws degree. And so in 1951 I started the process, and actually I was commissioned in 1952 after taking the written and the oral exams under the Rogers act that provides for commissioning Foreign Service officers, Foreign Service exam, yeah, FOREIGN SERVICE exams, and passed those, and then was actually commissioned in June, I think it was of 1952 and my first post was in West Berlin. After I took the officers course, I went to Berlin, which was still a divided city, obviously back in 1952 before the wall, but nevertheless, under the Allied commandator, divided into the French and British and Russian and American sectors, and we still had a high commissioner there. One time was John J McCloy, I think when I arrived, it was Dr James B Conant, former president of Harvard University, who was the High Commissioner, and I left the Foreign Service. Then in 1955 after one tour of duty, deciding that having married a girl that I met in Washington during my stay there, and she had come to Europe to be with me at my post, and we had a child a year later who was born in Germany. My oldest daughter, Eleonora, and I decided that the financial rewards were so insubstantial in the Foreign Service back in those days that I should get back Shoemaker, stick to thy last or something like that, go back into the practice of law. So I went back to my hometown of Rockford, went into law practice, but was really engaged in that for less than a year, until I got immersed in the political stream and ran for what was a rather unexpected opening, the state's attorney, prosecuting attorney, District Attorney, State's Attorney in Illinois for the county, didn't run again, and I ran in a five person race. I got the Republican nomination, and then in november of 1956 took office, and served in that position until 19 the end of 1960 and while still in office, I ran for my first time for Congress, and was successful in november of 1960 and took office as a member of the US House in January of 61 which was about three months, I think, before. Morris K Udall, well, exactly, I was Arizona arrived on the scene. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=422.0,603.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was just realizing that he came to Congress from a position of county attorney. Yeah, right, exactly, yeah. And he, you started in 1960 and he began in 61 as part of a special election to replace his brothers. Right when? Do you remember when you first met mo in Congress?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=604.0,626.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I'm sure that it was soon after I, like him, was assigned to two of the more ignominious committees because the old rules of seniority prevented me from being elected or selected by the Republican committee on committees to the post that I was seeking on the Ways and Means Committee, the tax committee. But another member, a non lawyer, very much wanted the committee, and he was senior by some years to me, a newly arrived freshman. And freshmen were back in those days, more apt to be seen rather than heard. So I was put on the House Administration Committee, the kind of housekeeping committee for the house of no great import and interest. And then the other committee was the Government Operations Committee, which was had a broad mandate to investigate any federal expenditure, to see whether it was being conducted honestly and efficiently. But they had a Chicago machine politician, Bill Dawson as chairman, and he was not want to poke his nose into too much. And so that was really an extremely routine assignment. But in my second term, realizing my intense disappointment, I was put on the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, which was fairly new and arisen out of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 past six years before my election, and generally supervised The civilian nuclear energy program of what later become, that became the Department of Energy, but at that time was simply called the Atomic Energy Commission, headed by Dr Glenn Seaborg, a very famous, worldwide, famous, Nobel laureate Professor of Physics from University of California at Berkeley. And that was interesting because they monitored not only the work of the Atomic Energy Commission and its various national laboratories, some of which are like Sandia in New Mexico and Berkeley, the laboratory at Berkeley and the one at Argonne in my home state of Illinois, but also the AEC, of course, rode herd on the whole nuclear bomb and nuclear missile program. So there was some prestige at that time, and being on the joint committee, which was, I think it was 12 members, six from the house and six from the Senate. They alternated the chairmanship between the House and the Senate for many years. Chad Holifield, a Democrat from California, was the chair, and then John Pastore, senator from Rhode Island, was the chair. And they had such luminaries as old Clinton Anderson of New Mexico, who, at one time, had been Secretary of Agriculture, I think, under the Truman administration, and a fairly high and they had Joe Montoya. He was New Mexico. He was New Mexico, but he was on the committee because they had an installation in New Mexico. And then an opening appeared also on the Rules Committee. And because my predecessor in Congress, who had been there for 28 years, when he suddenly retired and I ran to take his place, he had been on the committee for many years, actually, in the two Republican Congresses of 1948 and no they were elected in 46 they were defeated when Truman ran for re election in 48 but I forget the number of the Congress, but the Congress that was elected in 46 was Republican right after The war, and he became chairman of the House Rules Committee. And then he was also chairman for two years when the Republicans controlled the House in the first Eisenhower term. For two years, that would have been the, well, the first Republican come. Congress in 40 years was the 104th that was elected in 94 so five congresses back of that would have been the 99th Congress, I guess, yeah, it must have been the 99 Congress. Well, I digress. I'm giving you too much detail. But anyway, that gave me some claim, because my district predecessor in Congress had been chair of that committee, so to mollify me for having been denied my real choice, which was the tax writing committee, the Ways and Means Committee, they put me on the Rules Committee, and there I stayed, and I never served in anything but a democratic house, so I was never chairman, but I eventually gravitated to the point where I had more seniority on the Rules Committee than anyone else. But then paradoxically, my my the fruits were quickly plucked from my grasp of being the ranking minority member, because in 1970 in 1969 I had run for the House conference chair position that was vacated by Melvin Laird, who was appointed by Richard Nixon as the Secretary of defense. So when Laird departed to go down to the Pentagon to become Secretary of the Department of Defense. I ran for his position, which was well the House Republican minority leader when I arrived, was Charlie Hallock, and then he was finally succeeded by Jerry Ford when there was a palace revolt against Halleck after the Goldwater defeat in 64 Ford came in in 65 and then, of course, Ford ultimately was succeeded when he was appointed to fulfill the Vice Presidency Andrew Nixon that was caused by Nelson Rockefeller's death. And I guess it was then that John Rhodes became minority leader. I believe, I think it was, yeah, I think he succeeded for it, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=627.0,1032.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How is the the House conference committee, or the House Republican Conference is what you became chairman of what?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1033.0,1040.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: What is that? Well, sort of like the General Assembly of the Republican Party, in that every member who sits on the Republican side of the aisle is a member and has a vote in the conference, and there was always a little jousting for position between, frankly, the conference and the policy committee. The House policy committee was a much smaller group. Members were appointed by the leadership and by the Committee on committees. I think there were some leadership appointments by whoever the minority leader wanted on the committee, and then the Committee on committees would put somebody, and that was a much smaller committee, oh, of only about eight or 10 or 12 members. I forget the exact size, but you know, at the time I came to Congress, I guess we had about 160 or 70 Republicans. We were very much in the minority. And after six, 864, we that number shrank considerably because we lost a number of seats. But anyway, the policy committee was a much smaller group, and really much more the vehicle of the minority leader to knock out statements of party policy, and I tried to energize the conference a little bit and give it a broader role. And to some degree, I guess I was successful, but there was always a little jousting. You know that the conference not call all 160 or 70 members in and have a conference and adopt a resolution that was too unwieldy a group that was felt to come to a consensus on an important policy question, and it would be better To refine it through this smaller and more malleable group that made up the policy committee, which was John Rhodes's responsibility before he became minority leader, he was Policy Committee Chairman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1041.0,1170.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now in 1969 when you became chair, were you were your progressive leanings obvious at that time. There were, to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1171.0,1182.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the extent that I had cast the deciding vote in 1968 on the open housing act Martin Luther King had been assassinated. There was this bill pending at the clerk's desk that had come over from the Senate that. Enacted. We had passed civil rights legislation in 1964 the big bill, which I supported, public accommodations no further discrimination on restaurants and public places and so on. And Title Seven, which prohibited discrimination based on race or sex, Title Seven of the 64 act. And then in 1965 the truly landmark Voting Rights Act, which sent voting registrars into districts that in the past several elections, it was discovered less than 50% of the eligible black voters had not voted. It was felt that they were not voting, and it was true, because of discrimination, they were being kept from registering and so on. Their their rights to vote were definitely being impeded. So the Voting Rights Act was passed, but the area of housing was not specifically dealt with in either of those measures. So in 1968 the push was on to pass the Fair Housing Act that no person should deny the rental, sale, leasing, transfer of ownership of property to anyone simply because of their race or color or creed, and it was to try to get blacks a fair shape, as far as getting decent housing in all white neighborhoods. And I cast I was the only Republican on the Rules Committee who voted for that. I jumped ship because the others wanted to send it to conference, send the Senate bill to conference, where it was perfectly obvious that it would have been watered down and worked over, and if it ever emerged, it would have been in a very emasculated form. And I had decided we simply could not, at this critical juncture, after the death of King of all times, to be backpedaling on civil rights legislation, of which there had been precious little for the last 100 years. This was no time to have that kind of regressive action by the by the House of Representatives, and that really, I think, exposed the progressive streak in me, because my vote was widely quoted. And editorialized about because without it, and I remember the next day when I went to the White House, when the bill was actually whipped down there and signed quickly by Lyndon Johnson. They whispered to Lyndon, who really didn't know much about this four term congressman from Illinois. This is a guy who got the bill out of the Rules Committee, and they had to then vote on it and pass it and bring it down to you. And he gave me a special hand clasp and thank you for my and but despite that, oh, I had been rebellious on an environmental bill too. I remember the terrible scolding I got from the fellow who was the ranking member on the Rules Committee, because we never had the chair, an old Republican from Ohio by the name of Clarence Brown. And there was a very sensitive, ecologically and geologically sensitive and unique bit of territory in southern Wisconsin called the Kettle Moraine area that had been glaciated in a very unusual way. And Henry Royce, a Democrat who became a very good friend of mine, Democrat from the Wisconsin, State of Wisconsin, but he didn't represent that area. A he put in legislation to put that in federal protection. I can't remember now whether it was a national refuge or anyway, it would have been protected against any development in the area containing this ecologically and geologically sensitive area of the cattle moraine, which made good sense to me, because there was no other area really like it in the whole country. And the environmentalists, obviously were on one side, and the developers were on the other. And the congressman, the Republican congressman in whose area, the territory or the area was located, was very opposed to Royce's bill. He said, This is my district. I should be the one that decides whether or not something goes into a national park or into a national reserve. And I voted against him. I was the only Republican who voted to and it was the deciding vote again, and it brought the bill out, and old Clarence called me down to his office and just gave me a tongue lashing, the likes of which you never heard about. Haven't you got enough sense to know that the way the game is played on Capitol Hill is that when a member, particularly when the object. Chief of the legislation is located in his district. You don't listen to some Democrat even though he lives in the same state, who lives in another congressional district or represents another congressional district. You do what your Republican member wants done, and that was to keep that Bill bottled up in the Rules Committee would never get out for a floor vote. Well, I listened in silence to his admonition and said very little as I recall it, but I became, I think, something of an object of suspicion thereafter, less than totally reliable on holding the party line Republicans, you know, after all of these years since 1954 and this was 19 this was 1960","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1183.0,1549.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: we're talking about 1968 so, my God, after all these years of being in the minority","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1550.0,1556.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and being run over by the Democratic steamroller, They thought the least you could do if your Republican was to observe this congressional courtesy of never voting to report out a bill that a Republican didn't want reported out. Well, I thought my responsibilities were somewhat broader than simply protecting the Republican Party so that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1557.0,1579.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: your ideas don't seem to have hurt you. However. I mean, you were, you were re elected Chair of the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1580.0,1585.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: House. I was about to say that the next election, they were laying for me, and they almost upset me. They came within 10 votes in the vote because you had to be re elected to this job. Every two years they came. They ran a very conservative Republican called Sam Devine, an ex FBI agent who was the head of a group called, oh, I don't know, the good guys. They were called the good guys. They were the really right Bower of the Republican Party. And they kind of snuck up on me, and I didn't realize until almost too late, when I frantically got a committee organized to start circulating my side of the story, and they came within 10 votes of beating me, which was a very close vote for re election. But I survived, and then somehow I survived until I decided in 1969 that I was going to run for the Republican nomination. Then they let it be known to me that you know if you want to run for president,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1586.0,1652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and you mean 1979 7979","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1653.0,1656.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: 10 years later, you have to resign your chairmanship. You can't be both a Republican candidate for the presidency while you're a House member and have the aura of being chairman of the Republican Party in the House, chairman of the conference. So I saw the handwriting on the wall because even some of the fairly moderate ones were shaking their heads and thought this was too much for me to parade under the banner of being the house Chairman that might give me some advantage over Ronald Reagan, who was, even then the declared darling of the Republican Party. So I I submitted my resignation. But for 10 years I did, yeah, I did hold the job, and then I went into the primaries. Of course, that's another story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1657.0,1704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, when do you have a memory of first meeting Mo, and if, if not, what were your earliest recollections","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1705.0,1713.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of Mo? Well, I just My earliest recollections were that, you know, I had, early on, decided that most of the Republicans in the House were so much more conservative than I on a whole range of issues that I I was not comfortable, you know, with with where I found myself. And I know when Goldwater ran in 1964 I just, you know, was bothered that, not that he wasn't a perfectly wonderful man and true to his principles, but I didn't think that the standard bearer of the Republican Party should come from that very conservative wing of the party. I remember I went to Laird, who was chairman of, what was his job? Well, chairman of the conference. I told you that before me, and he wanted to have a meeting with Nick's, with Nixon. And after this was after Goldwater's. I'm sort of getting ahead of my story. I'm trying to give you the evolution that threw me to people like Mo Udall. But going back to Goldwater, I was very uncomfortable. I you know, I didn't make any speeches against Goldwater, but I didn't go out of my way to associate myself with. His candidacy in my campaign for re election to what would have been my third term, I kind of pursued a separate course and did not identify with the people who were really dancing up and down in enthusiasm for cold water and that I suppose, knowing politics as I do, did not entirely escape the attention of my more conservative brethren in the house. And then the next Republican candidate who came along, of course, in 68 was was Dixon. And here again, when Laird, who was conference chairman, wanted to hold a conference breakfast and personally invited me to be there and be sure to listen to the guy that he used to that he thought should be the next Republican nominee, I came right out and said, I I can't agree with you. I said, I think that there ought to be other people in the Republican Party. He's had his chance, and he failed the test. We ought to be looking for someone other than Richard Nixon as our candidate, and I didn't even go to the Convention, which normally a sitting member of Congress would do, whether he was a delegate or not. You were given certain access and courtesies. As a sitting member, I stayed away from the Miami convention where Nixon was nominated. I was that enthusiastic about his nomination, which seemed to be inevitable and proved to be so. So that's just, I don't know how that all hangs together, but over that period of time, you know, I looked on the other side of the aisle, and it wasn't that I thought of converting and becoming a Democrat because I lived in a district that was so rock ribbed Republican, you know, that no Democrat had been elected since The Civil War in that district and but it's just that I felt more comfortable with the more progressive ideas and open attitudes that people like Mo Udall seem to exhibit as I observed them on the floor of the House and listened to the speeches and heard the positions that they were articulating. It seemed to me somewhat like Udall. It was not, you know, an extreme left person at all. He was espousing positions on issues, be it open housing or be it environmental issues or anything else that was so reasonable that I was mightily persuaded, so that, plus his outgoing nature, you know, I told a little story today, he got to know very quickly every member, because he made it a point which I never did, to look at the pictures and identify the Name and so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1714.0,1980.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: on. That was his first year in Congress that he Yeah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1981.0,1983.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So I got to know him quickly, not but it really was not until the campaign finance thing came along, which was very early in the 70s, that we began this active collaboration on a specific bill that went in as the Udall Anderson campaign finance reform bill, and in an effort to build support, held frequent strategy sessions and meetings both off the floor and in his office for mine, and tried to recruit co sponsors and build up support for that legislation. So that threw us into and then our by that time, I can't remember whether Mo was married to Ella, his second wife, second wife, I can't remember when they were married.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=1984.0,2041.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Had you met Pat and Ella,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2042.0,2047.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: both his first wife? No, I met her, you know, but I had not at that time. Matter of fact, I'll tell you where I met her. I met her in Washington, when I introduced mark, his son and a fundraiser he was in Washington trying to drum up a little support. And Roy Jones, a lawyer who used to be on mo staff, called me up and said, Will you come down? You're an old friend of Mo Udalls. Everybody knew that I thought of him so highly and with great affection. And you know, I need somebody. I'm going to invite in some business people and lawyers. That was a fairly small","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2048.0,2085.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: group. This was a fundraiser for Mark's congressional campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2086.0,2088.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: She was in the background very much. She didn't thrust herself for but she came up and introduced herself to me, and that was the first. Time I really ever met his first wife. But what I started to say is that then Ella, you got married to Ella, and I don't remember when they were, but she and my wife somehow got acquainted, and they were like two peas in a pot. You know, Ella was very outgoing and, you know, very, very open and frank, and my wife is exactly the same kind of person and not doesn't particularly care whether the person she's talking to likes what she says or not, if she feels it strongly, why? She just doesn't beat around the bush. She tells it like it is from her point of view. And so they hit it off, and socially they got together. And I think that obviously","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2089.0,2144.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that was soon after, after their marriage, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2145.0,2146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, yeah. And I wish I could remember just when that was, well, you know, chronologies are hard. You know, after all these years, I want","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2147.0,2155.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: to say I should know that myself, but I want to say it was probably around 6768","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2156.0,2161.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: somewhere. Yeah. Well, that certainly was another thing, the attraction that our two wives had for one another to serve to strengthen the bond of friendship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2162.0,2175.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What did you think? What did you think when Moe in 1968 I think that was his name here. He and Ella were married when he opposed the somewhat institutionalized house speaker, John McCormick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2176.0,2189.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, frankly, as one who had suffered, as I have just described, from, from the rigid application of this very hierarchical system that you know you have a leadership ladder, and when somebody climbs a rung and is on the ladder, you don't try to knock them off. You wait until death for retirement, takes them away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2190.0,2211.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: The Dead Hand, I believe you called it the dead hand. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2212.0,2215.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, I was very admiring, although it wasn't for me to stick my nose into intramural democratic politics and try to lobby one way or the other, but I think I made no secret to him or anyone who wanted my views on the matter that you know, I thought it was a wonderful thing that someone is young and active and vibrant and gifted with these unusual qualities of leadership that he had should aspire to that I mean, I couldn't go any higher than conference chairman. I was lucky to have that little rung on the ladder under my feet, given the very conservative composition of my side of the political aisle, but so I, you know, I, I wouldn't be John indicated today. You know, he thought, Oh, my God. You know, he liked mo too. There isn't any question about it, that he was really putting his neck in a guilty that he would lose and suffer all kinds of dire consequences. But you know, it was just another thing that I found very attractive about his political","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2216.0,2286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I believe Tip O'Neill and his autobiography, man in the house indicated that he thought Moe running against speaker McCormick was the greatest mistake Moe ever made, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2287.0,2297.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: because he then couldn't advance on the ladder, because then he lost when he tried to be majority leader, exactly, and we ended up with, was that the one hail Boggs? Hell yeah, hell box. Hail box came out of that. And I don't know, I haven't read chips book, maybe he meant it in that sense that I think that Tim was very much a man of the old school as far as the hierarchy is concerned. He had this hierarchical notion that you run for this little take this little step, and then you look around and when the time is right, which means the person ahead of you doesn't want the job anymore, or quits or retires or die, then you make your bid, you don't try to leapfrog, which was really what he was doing. I couldn't see any point to that argument. There was a little of the rebel in me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2298.0,2355.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: But let's talk a little about campaign finance reform in 1967 which is four years before the introduction of the 71 Campaign Finance Reform Act, Mo introduced legislation that would limit the cost of campaigns federally finance some campaign costs, allow free radio and TV and shorten general elections. Were you involved in that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2356.0,2381.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I have to be honest with you, I don't recall any specific contribution I may have signed on as a co sponsor, because I think even at that early date, and that was before all of the odious, uh. The outfall from the 72 campaign of creep, you know, and the talk about $100,000 in laundered money being smuggled over the border from Mexico, and they W Clement Stone giving a million dollars in contributions to Nixon's creep. That's really was what spurred me. But I think I may have been a co sponsor. I do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2382.0,2429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you know what happened to that bill? I don't. It must not have gone","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2430.0,2436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: anywhere. No, was a man ahead of his time. I didn't have time today to expound on that thesis, to the extent that I would like to not only on welfare reform, but on campaign reform, on the need to conserve our natural resources. Here was a man who had his eye on the far horizon, and he could see further than most, and very prescient in his approach to what the needs of the nation were. I didn't tell all of the things that I remembered reading in a little research I did to try to jog my memory for this thing we did today over before the students about the extent to which he linked our inability to make public expenditures in really needy areas, like eliminating or dealing with problems of poverty and dealing with environmental problems, assuring us of clean air and clean water, because We were spending billions of dollars on programs that ought to be reformed and changed so that we could channel the money that he wasn't a big spender, in my opinion. I mean, he he was looking for ways to save money. He was not really one of the all out redistributionists, which the Democrats are sometimes accused of being. He saw a need for government to curtail its programs if they were costly and ineffective and inefficient, but not just saving money for the sake of saving money. He then wanted to transfer those funds that would be freed up to pursue the other goals that were just being ignored and neglected altogether. And again, I was attracted to the logic of his position, that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2437.0,2550.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: aspect in 1971 you and Mo were involved in passage of the first comprehensive campaign finance reform legislation, which was entitled A Federal Election Campaign Act of 71 what was the impetus for this legislation? You referred to creep and all before, and, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2551.0,2569.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: because, because that was before the 72 election, you know, that was so scandalous that, you know, made a lot of converts. So we were really ahead of that particular wave, and that's what makes me think that I may have been on that 67 bill, but I don't want to say it for sure, because I'd have to research it try to find out whether that's so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2570.0,2595.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: But you work,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2596.0,2596.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, I give mo credit. I mean, I was not the great progenitor of that idea. It came out of his brain, and he was sufficiently cogent in his arguments, and persuasive and clear about why it would be better than the way we were going about it, that he just brought me along to the point where I became, you know, like you get more Catholic than the Pope. As the convert, Clare Boothe Lu said, when you're a convert, I as a convert because of his ministrations and and seeking me out and talking to me about it, you know, I got as excited as he did about what a great advance this would be and what a great reform in the political process. I guess again, he was a reformer. I did say that today. I hope I did. He was at heart. He wanted change in the process itself. He saw that it too often there was stasis where there should be forward movement, and so in his very analytical way, he looked for the reasons, and he found this deficit in our way of dealing with the funding and the conducting of campaigns is one of the reasons why our politics have come. Out and the screwed up, pardon the expression as it was. And that made, that made a convert out of me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2597.0,2706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm going to need to turn the tape over here. Yeah, hold on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268#t=2707.0,2709.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270268/transcript/78583/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/583/original/azu_ms396-001_side1_a.vtt?1744912838","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/583/original/azu_ms396-001_side1_a.vtt?1744912838"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - azu_ms396-001_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2516.712,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/269/original/azu_ms396-001_side2_a.mp3?1744847744","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2516.712,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, we're back in the following year on May 8, 1973 you and Mo introduced HR 7612 which called for an independent federal election campaign commission. Yeah. What was the response in the house to that bill? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=0.0,22.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was certainly not universally approved, and as I recall it, one of the one of the important reasons for coming up with that proposal was that the office, it was a Clerk of the House, that was the functionary, as I recall it, under the 71 act, would receive the reports of expenditures and also there and required under that act, and contributions, and also the House Administration Committee, which I'm pretty sure at that time, I don't know whether Wayne Hayes had taken over, I believe so pretty sure He had, and if there was ever, ever a person, of course, who was opposed to any vestige of campaign finance reform and of changing the system. He fought it tooth and nail. He was maniacal, almost in his opposition. So he was here that members of Congress should have some group like an independent Federal Elections Commission, sitting in judgment on what members of the House might be doing with respect to the way they received and dispersed campaign funds. He was just livid, and he was a very choleric individual to begin with terrible temper. Really, I don't very often speak ill of my fellow man, not as much as I used to, now that I'm closer to my maker. But he was really, he was bad on this issue. He was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=23.0,134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: chairman of the House Administration Committee, which, which the Committee on a subcommittee on elections was under, is that correct? That's right. So he was in a position he was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=135.0,146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in, as they say, the cat bird seat, and he was determined to use it to block any real, meaningful campaign reform. And he saw the commission idea as the house losing control of its own business. It's the business of members, how they get elected and what they do. We don't need some functionaries sitting out here in a commission or in some other extra congressional bailiwick monitoring our conduct. Oh, I'll never forget the run ins we had with him. He was insulting. I mean, he he disliked me intensely. He hated Mo Udall. I mean, one of the few people that did, I mean, even the people that disagreed with Mo, you know, loved him for the great human being that he was, but I don't think there was much love lost on him. By Wayne Hayes, he was just too virulent. Wayne Hayes hatred of the whole idea that we were stirring up people like Anderson and Udall were stirring up the pot, you know, and getting everybody excited about the need for change and reform. Leave it in the election subcommittee and leave it in the House Administration Committee. That's it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=147.0,234.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, it would appear, from his fate that he had good reason not to. Oh, of course, oversight. I sight","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=235.0,243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in I guess, he's passed on. Now one should not maybe speak ill of the dead. He went back to Ohio after he resigned his seat, finally, after the Elizabeth Ray scandal, and he did run, I think, and was elected to the Ohio legislature, really, to a term or two, and then he got beat, I think in that finally, and now, I think maybe he's gone to his reward","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=244.0,272.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: on July 30, after, let's see. It was May 8 that you and Mo introduced the Federal Election Commission bill on July. Right on July 30, the Senate passed a campaign reform bill sponsored by Senator Pastore. And in October, November, the house considered pastor's bill and your bill together. As I understand it, it, it wasn't until the next year 74 that that the bill came up again, was that because of Wayne Hayes, just the committee in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=273.0,313.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: part, yes, he was laboring tireless, tirelessly and behind the scenes to derail any campaign reform legislation, but there were some substantial objections to the format of the pastoral bill. As far as it allotted, I think so many cents per vote to be expended for radio and television and so on. It had some fairly specific provisions to which I didn't personally object, but which I think did bother some of the people who otherwise certainly would not stand in the way of the disclosure provisions of the bill that Mo and I had come with, come up with, nor would they necessarily fight to the bitter end against the partial public financing which was in our bill by matching small contributions of $100 I think maybe it was $250 or $100 I forget, or less, with money from the Federal check off fund that had been established where the taxpayer checks off the square on the income tax return and makes a contribution that otherwise would go to the IRS to the fund, and that had been established by earlier legislation, and that was going to be the source of the money that we would use to pay out in matching funds and reward candidates who went out and concentrated and had the incentive by these matching funds to concentrate on Raising money in small amounts from small contributors, rather than $1,000 contributions, $5,000 PEC contributions and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=314.0,429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In on April during this time, didn't Nixon send his own proposal to the house, yeah. What was that proposal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=430.0,439.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think it was largely a disclosure, okay, proposal, certainly there was no public financing in it. Oh, okay, no, I don't think there was any public financing. No. And I were really, I mean, we, we quoted frequently the fact that as early as 19 108 Theodore Roosevelt, great progressive, in the early part of the progressive era, as it was emerging across the country, it had said this is the most important expenditure that you can make from government funds to make sure that our elections are not controlled by the trusts and the special interests, but are conducted for the benefit of the people, and not for a few. So I mean, we the public financing hook. Really, the matching was a compromise. If we could have gone for full, we talked about this many times. I distinctly recall if we could have gone, gone for full public financing of election campaigns. We thought it would be a big bargain for the American people and the honest and uncorrupted government that it could produce, but we believed that it would scare people off entirely if we made that bold proposal. So this somewhat watered down idea that at least part of the campaign could, could be encouraged to be in finance, could be encouraged to be in small contribution with this matching funds idea from the check on fund. So that was very much a compromise position as a part of our strategy that, well, you know, you got to get these guys to stick their toe in the water, and they aren't going to put the whole foot in, but maybe this is enough to at least get some experience of financing campaigns in this new way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=440.0,553.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now the Senate, the Senate version of the bill that that was passed later included public funding for both presidential and congressional elections in the in the house, in the compromise that ensued, wasn't the congressional funding dropped,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=554.0,572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: yeah, I think it was that. It was, you're correct. Okay, you're correct. Um,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=573.0,580.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it appeared from my research that the house was more conservative on on financing campaigns than the Senate. Oh, I think that's true. Why is that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=581.0,595.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: good question? Nobody ever asked me to think it's. Rule.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=596.0,601.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Might it have something to do with the fact that they have to face the voters more often, which means, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=602.0,606.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that's probably as good a reason as I could come up with, yeah, that House members feel very they're relatively insecure. Two years comes around in an awful hurry. One Campaign is no sooner over than the other one is starting, whereas senators can, from their loftier perch of longer tenure, can be a little less, although I don't know the way the cost of Senate campaigns has escalated since 74 I don't know whether they'd feel that way anymore. They would. I read all these stories anyway, I get a lot of stuff from Ellen Miller and public campaign organization, which is pushing for public financing that the senators start immediately paying off the debt that they've racked up to win the the office. And I mean, they know, so they get to Washington and they're on the phone, you know, how about helping me get rid of my debt? And if you're on the right committee, if you're on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and you call the PAC from McDonnell Douglas, if they're still in business, changing all these defense contractors, or, you know, you got a good chance. But back in those days, I think the Senate was not quite as bad in that regard as it's become its dependence on raising money just non stop, always, never stops. Perpetual. You have to invent the supposedly uninventable, the perpetual motion machine,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=607.0,703.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: campaign fundraising machine. October 15, 1974 the amendments to the Federal Election Campaign were signed into law by President Ford, and wasn't President Ford, as I understand, an opponent of any kind of federal funding of campaigns. Why do you think he signed this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=704.0,727.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I don't know whether he felt that was politically after all, and was thinking about running again, and I guess he knew that because of the disclosures that had come out of the Nixon campaign, which were pretty awful about the way they raised money back then, and his role in pardoning Nixon, that he might be especially vulnerable to charges that, you know, he was really owned lock, stock and barrel by the people who wanted to continue to stuff all this money through the crack and over the transom into the offices of candidates, so that they had them in hock to the point where, when the votes were called, they could be sure the votes would be cast the right way. I think it was, I don't say this pejorative layman. I think it was a political calculation more than anything else. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=728.0,781.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so in some ways, we have Nixon and Watergate to thank for a lot of the campaign finance referral. No question","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=782.0,788.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: about it. No question about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=789.0,792.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: By the time the 74 amendments had been enacted, Mo had already declared his his candidacy for president. Do you think that in sponsoring both the 71 bill and 74 amendments that he he was looking ahead to a future presidential campaign?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=793.0,810.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, I just think it was an implicit part of his very progressive view that one of the things that government simply was not facing up to was the need to reform the system, that there had To be a systemic change and the way government functions. And even though he was big for Alaska National Interest Lands and he was big for all kinds of programs that would help people, he had a real vision of how if we really wanted to get the kind of legislation that we needed. We had to begin. We couldn't hopscotch. Hopscotch over the need to reform the political system itself. He was a reformer. He believed that dirty money made for dirty politics, and that the old saying about not watching how laws are made, because it reminds you of how sausage is made, was all too true because of the insidious influence that was worked into the mix. Thing of the process, the the insidious influence of all this money that was coming in through the cracks from from the private sector.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=811.0,911.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Just the other day, the The House passed a new campaign reform bill that's been been dubbed the most sweeping changes since the 74 amendments. I was interested in seeing that partially because the Senator John McCain's bill in this in the Senate, and Senator McCain had a lot to do with establishment of the Udall foundation. His bill died outright in the Senate, then the House passes this. So I was interested that it appeared, appears that maybe the political climate has changed and now the house is more liberal on the campaign finance issue than the Senate. Is there any validity to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=912.0,951.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that? I don't think so. I really, I really don't think that the house is more liberal. I think that Gingrich dug his own grave on this issue when he sashayed up to that farmer's field, or whatever it was in New Hampshire, back in June or July of 1995 I think it was and solemnly shook hands with Clinton, who was happened to be there at the same time. You remember that Tableau about, yeah, I think it would be good to have a commission appointed to work out good, solid campaign finance reform legislation. And after trumpeting that, you know, the Commission never got created. They never got closer than this to agreeing on even looking at the problem on a bipartisan basis. And then he was taken into camp, particularly by the operatives in the party, particularly those who run the Senatorial Campaign and congressional campaign committees. Whoa. I mean, if we, if we can't do what we did in that race, that Tim worth lost in Colorado, plunk all this dough, soft money into senatorial and congressional campaigns that may hang in the balance, or we're going to lose the house, we're going to lose the Senate, and The Democrats, they'll still be collecting their labor money, and we'll be losing these big chunks of dough that we get from corporate heads who either want to maintain offshore tax privileges or get some other provision that will advantage their company, and they'll cut off our water completely. And I think he boxed himself in for all of his reputed cleverness. And of course, the New York Times papers, like the New York Times every day, have been pounding out editorials you know, about how duplicitous he is and how his tactics really are just incredibly bad, and naming the Northeast representatives within the particular Purdy of their influence who ought to become part of the well, I guess, in the first Vote, it was 51 and in the final vote, I think for passage, I think there were 61 Republicans who finally go to for Chase man. And I think they were led to do that when I'm getting now","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=952.0,1113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: is this in the house that you're in the house that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1114.0,1116.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: they saw that with the November elections literally breathing down their neck that this was going to be a very live issue in those in their campaigns and their democratic opponents were going to be holding them up as real, real tools of Gingrich, who was not that popular in the country anyway, and they could well lose their seats in a close race over this issue. And I think Ingrid's just","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1117.0,1148.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: miscalculated. And yet, as do you think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1149.0,1151.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: there's deeply that bit that argument?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1152.0,1153.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think there's time for something to happen with that bill before? I'm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1154.0,1157.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: very pessimistic this fellow, McConnell, God, he's to the Senate. What Wayne Hayes was to the house back in the 70s. This guy, McConnell,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1158.0,1168.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: where's he from? Kentucky?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1169.0,1171.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He says he'll filibuster it again. And when you've got seven Republicans with 45 you're still you're eight votes short, you've got to get eight more Republican senators. And I follow this pretty closely, because I'm interested in this public campaign organization, this nonprofit that's working on reform legislation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1172.0,1194.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: which organization is it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1195.0,1196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: got a little office in Washington. I. Ellen Miller, who's really a dynamo and used to be head of something called the Center for Responsive Politics. She ran that for 11 years. All the good statistics on how tobacco money is filtered into the campaigns, money from their oil companies gets filtered in. She directed the staff that does all the computerized work to dig out of the FEC files and their records and then collating and putting it all together. Published a lot of good stuff that I used for a law review article I had published in the American University Law Review last March, getting wound up and getting off the track anyway, McConnell, we were on him. He really he's made that his mission in life, and I just do not see the eight boats on the Republican side of the aisle that are needed to get cloture in time for that thing to come out, and I think the Republicans may well yet, I have been fairly predicting a Republican defeat In the congressional elections, but that was before this latest round of scandal, you know, and I don't know how that's going to come up, maybe, maybe that's going to undercut but I think they are so vulnerable, you know, almost makes me wish I was running again and could really go out and debate these issues and see if you couldn't convince people to turn out anybody who stands in the way of campaign finance reform when the need is so obvious and the idea that a privileged few should have a voice at the table in the councils of Government that nobody else has when it comes to actually writing and passing legislation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1197.0,1324.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: If you could, if you could write a bill today, if you and Mo could get together and write a bill on campaign finance reform, what would you like? What would your biggest wish list be on now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1325.0,1334.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it would be a bill that has been introduced in the Senate, and it was introduced back in March or April, because I was at the press conference when it occurred. And Paul Wellstone is on the bill. Of course, he's probably the most liberal member of the Senate, but John Kerry of Massachusetts is on the bill. Joe Biden is kind of a tower of jell o a lot of things internationally, is on the bill, and the fourth co sponsor, John Glenn, he wasn't there at the press conference, but I think he put his name on the bill, and it's essentially the legislation that Maine adopted by state referendum in november of 1996 called the clean money option, that when candidates go into a race, they take a pledge voluntarily because of this Vallejo case that John Rhodes was talking about that sits like an elephant, you know, a thwart track that's trying to get this express train to reform moving. They would take a voluntary pledge that they would accept no private money, no private contributions, no PAC money, no private contributions of any kind. And then the state would establish a fund that would fund up to a reasonable level, which each state legislature would have to decide on, a fund that would would enable this candidate to buy the television, the radio and the newspaper, advertising and billboards and some reasonable amount to get his story out and his campaign across to the voters, and if his opponent and then he would have to agree to a limitation on overall spending too. In addition taking the pledge and the public money, you have to agree that there would be a limit on that, because the public isn't going to go for spending 20 or $7 million for a Senate seat like this guy in California tried to buy a few years ago, Huffington out in Santa Barbara, California, if his opponent refused to voluntarily make take the same bond and make the same claim. And went out and said, Well, I'm a rich man. I got plenty of money. The hell with you. I'm going to spend whatever it takes then up to a certain level. And again, to be prudent, you'd have to have some level. There would be a supplement. A repayment made available to the fellow who did take the vow that he would take no private money. He would get a supplementary payment to try to even the expenditure level with that of his opponent, if not entirely, give him a little bit of a leg up as a way of answering this guy who's determined to take private money and spend all he wants. So that's called the clean money option. And since it's voluntary, you know, the Bucha versus Vallejo case shouldn't apply. I mean, if you voluntarily say, I'm going to curtail my expenditures, although I think parenthetically, you can make mincemeat out of the argument that John Rhodes made, that this is free speech, that spending all the money you want to buy in office is an exercise of free speech. That argument is so discreditable to me that I can I gag when I hear it. But you know, we do have a decision, procure and decision back in 76 that came to that incredible conclusion. So anyway, that would be my approach. That would be my approach right now, okay, and if mo were able to still be there, I think you'd agree with you. I think you would agree well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1335.0,1579.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: moving on to to Mo's presidential race, since you both were presidential candidates at one point in 1967 in a newsletter to his constituents, Mo complained about the length of the length of campaigns as being One of the problems with, with, with the factor contributing to the cost of campaigns. And yet, on November 74 a full, you know, two years before the 19 676, presidential campaign, he announced his candidacy for presidency. Do you view that as a contradictory move on his behalf, or just one made necessary by the times?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1580.0,1622.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Exactly No. It was a concession. It was a concession to reality. He knew that despite his considerable prominence in the country, because of the leadership that he had shown on important legislation, nevertheless he was prudent and practical enough to realize that the history of House members running for the presidency has not been that great. I would prove that six years later, when I went down the tubes. But before that, you know, Garfield had been the last house member going from the house, directly to the White House. And as Moe points out in his book, I mean, look what that got him. He got shot. He was assassinated. So I don't think that that was that he was producing his principles of believing in campaigns or to extend it, because, after all, he could offer the defense that he had tried to support legislation that would eliminate private financing and substitute public financing to some degree, and that that would inevitably probably also include some limitations on when the money could be spent, that it could only be spent pastorious Bill, I remember you couldn't spend the money that was going to be allotted for radio and TV until after labor day of the election year. And he had supported proposals of that kind that was well known, but they hadn't been adopted. They weren't the law, and he had to run under the kind of timetable that met campaigns were unduly protracted, whether he liked it or not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1623.0,1727.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Now was this couldn't run?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1728.0,1728.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was this partially then, because he was running from the House of Representatives, as opposed to the Senate, so there was a need to get his name out. You and Mo both, both ran for presidency from the House of Representatives, where that's always been deemed that that was impossible to do just because of lack of name ID and money, right? Do you think we're any closer now to members of the House being able to run a successful presidential campaign? No, probably not. We're not still there, huh? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1729.0,1762.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: think you're still there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1763.0,1765.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did mo inform you that he was going to run for president?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1766.0,1772.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm sure that we must have discussed it. You know, I have no laser like ability to go back and identify dates and conversations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1773.0,1783.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were you surprised at all? No, no, no, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1784.0,1787.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: felt, I felt that Jackson was a contender at that time, as you know, Carter by that time was, I think, May. Making it obvious that he was at least available, because his term had expired as governor, he had made some moves. As I recall, it was that thunder.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1788.0,1808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1809.0,1815.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Let's see 76 who else was making noises? I don't think Edward Teddy Kennedy. I don't think, No, he wasn't he didn't come along until 80. Was his challenge to Carter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1816.0,1829.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How did you feel about him running?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1830.0,1833.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I guess I felt that the odds were terribly long, and therefore to lose the services of a man who was already a national he was a national official in the sense that he had the national view, sure he had the central Arizona project. He did a lot of things that he could and should do in behalf of his state and so on that Johnny was talking about earlier, but still overall, here was a man with a far greater vision of the role that he could play in public life and in public affairs and simply representing Four or 500,000 constituents, or even a whole state. He really had this much broader perspective of how anybody, even in Congress, elected from a smaller geographic base, an electoral base, still add the necessity if he faced up to his responsibility of being a national legislator, and that's the way I felt, and that's what got me in trouble back in my own district, ultimately, is the cry went up. You know, he's playing to the national media, and he's more interested in what happens and what about us back here in our little P patch in Northwest Illinois, we need somebody who's, you know, does human like work, just looking after us that more parochial view of the office? He didn't have it, which is another reason, as I went on in the house, I didn't think that was the way that Congress should operate either. I heard somebody say, was it since I came out here? Was it at the table last night? Well, you weren't with us at dinner. Somebody was saying, you know, if a guy can't bring home the bacon, fire him. You know, we had a guy who served on the Rules Committee with me by the name of Judge Trimble. I don't know whether he was a probate judge or a county judge or what, but that was his title. And I don't think the man spoke two words in the time I knew him, and that was many years, and he sat on the Rules Committee, but he got elected regularly, every two years, and they said he it was just because he looked on his job as one of literally backing a truck up to the door of the US Treasury and loading as many goodies and as much cash as He could on the back end of the wagon and hauling it back to the folks in Arkansas. Well, isn't that where he was from? But you know, to me, that it was such a perversion of what your responsibilities are under the Constitution as a national legislator, sure you have case workers. Sure if there's a worthwhile project that's going to aid the economy of your state, you should show some interest. But that isn't your main function in life, to see how much dollar for dollar you can get back from the government, what your taxpayers have put in this isn't some kind of a swap arrangement that you work out, but when you seek to run and hold the office and congressmen, you have to have a bolder vision than that of what you're what the needs of the country Are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=1834.0,2058.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo used to, I remember him saying to me that there was sort of an intrinsic conflict between whether you were elected representatives to strictly, strictly bring home the bacon, basically, or were they giving you their trust to go do as you thought was correct,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2059.0,2078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right? Well. And he thought the latter, and I did too, and that's why I was attracted very much to a proposal that never got to first base, that Henry Royce, this Democrat from Wisconsin, that was also my good friend, put in the ombudsman proposal. Scandinavian countries, in addition to having a member in the Reichstag or the Swedish parliament, he has they have somebody called the ombudsman, who was a functionary whose job is to make sure that people who have certain entitlements, and he stands between them and the government, and calls the tune against the government if they are delaying a payment or a check or a benefit that should go to the Purdy. But that's a separate function, a separate job, and it seemed to me that particularly with issues becoming as enormously consequential in view of our world power, status and world responsibility. That was kind of a neat idea to have this functionary work hard to make sure people got what they were entitled to get in the way of benefits under the law, but the representative himself would then, so the theory goes, be freed up to consider on a much more detailed and intensive basis the other things that ought to be legislated and done for the country as a whole, but that never got any place. But, you know, there are some congressmen that just think it's the the ombudsman thing that's the most important. But Mo, I never had that concept","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2079.0,2190.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in in since you have, you ran for presidency as well, and I'm assuming you, you followed Moe's campaign at least as much as the reading the papers. You know that he, he lost, he ran in something like 22 seven primaries, I think he came second, right, right, exactly, and ran in something like 22","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2191.0,2211.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, it hurt me every time I read one of those reports, because I, you know, I was just so anxious to see him succeed, because I thought the country would be in safe hands.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2212.0,2222.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What, which must have been a sort of an uncomfortable position for you. You were a friend and colleague of Mo's and yeah, and yet you were still Chair of the House Republican committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2223.0,2234.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I wasn't overtly involved in this campaign, but, you know, I think some friendships do transcend political boundaries. I mean, you can be so totally convinced that a person is that qualified and his rectitude is that great, and that his contribution could be so meaningful that, you know, I I just am not the kind of partisan that says, Well, I gotta fence him off. He's off the reservation. No, I think if there had been a Udall administration, and I did, I this, I shouldn't say this, because my sound as if I thought that on the basis of my friendship, surely, you know, I would land something, but I certainly the thought must have crossed my mind that I would willingly accept any chore and Any position that in an administration under his supervision he might want done because I was that sold on his qualities. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2235.0,2309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: do you think he could have done different in the campaign? Do you think it was just destined to come out the way it did? Or do you think there's something he could have done differently? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2310.0,2323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: a hard question to answer, because I wasn't in all the states where he ran and was primaries, and because I never quite understood the secret of Carter's, you know, his kind of stealth campaign. I remember funny I should remember, but I do forgetful, as I've become. A column by David Broder about the time of the Wisconsin primary campaign, about how totally charming and marvelous Carter was on a one to one basis in a small gathering he had watched him, I think it was in the Midwest, rather than in New Hampshire, that he was literally mesmerizing in his ability, you know, to look people in the eye and say, I'll never lie to You, and we're going to get good honest, just government that we are entitled to. Finally, if you elect me, that he had a spiritual quality about him that conveyed that message so convincingly that people took him on faith and didn't realize. Lies that one term as a governor in a one party state where he had never really dealt with anything approaching the kind of national problems that a guy like mo had handled. Maybe mo should have just been a lot tougher. I think his good humor tended for him and I, again, this is surmise to some extent, but I think it's valid surmise based on the degree of my acquaintance with him. He just couldn't bring himself to expose Carter as being really the paper mache candidate that I think he was, because it wasn't long after he got in that I thought he demonstrated that he was way over his head.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2324.0,2449.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you and Mo ever talk about Carter since you both ran against him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2450.0,2456.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, no, he never was bitter and never said anything mean or harsh, but I don't think he would reprove me if he heard me saying the same things. I don't know whether I put it to him that way or not, and I'm sure we talked about Carter in view of that similar experience that you've just referred to. I uh, but he just, you know, he was he wanted to be positive. He wanted to be forthcoming with people. He didn't want to spend his time just, you know, knocking down, knocking down his opponent. That wasn't his style. And maybe that's what it would have taken to kind of break this spell that Carter seemed to weave over people, that he had this almost mystical power to solve all their problems.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2457.0,2511.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm going to need to change the tape again. Do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269#t=2512.0,2514.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270269/transcript/78584/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/584/original/azu_ms396-001_side2_a.vtt?1744912870","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/584/original/azu_ms396-001_side2_a.vtt?1744912870"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270270","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - azu_ms396-002_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2288.856,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270270/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270270/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/270/original/azu_ms396-002_side1_a.mp3?1744847747","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2288.856,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146492/file/270270","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[]}]}