{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/q52f76823x/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John Gabusi"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 1, tape 60"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Gabusi, John B. (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2005-03-19"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with John Gabusi conducted by Julie Ferdon. Gabusi met Morris Udall through his involvement in politics in Pima County, Tucson. Gabusi then went on to work for Udall in his Congressional position in Washington, D.C."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.014 (uid)","MS396.015 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with John Gabusi conducted by Julie Ferdon. Gabusi met Morris Udall through his involvement in politics in Pima County, Tucson. Gabusi then went on to work for Udall in his Congressional position in Washington, D.C."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 4 - azu_ms396-014_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2743.44,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/288/original/azu_ms396-014_side1_a.mp3?1744847795","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2743.44,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Of the Morse K Udall oral history project. My name is Julie ferdon. Good morning. My name is Julie ferdon. This is tape number 60 of the Morse K Udall oral history project. It's Saturday, March 19, and I'm at the Tucson, Arizona home of John gabusi, John, thank you for agreeing to this interview. My","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=0.0,23.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: pleasure allows me to bring back some memories that are dear to my heart, whether good or bad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=24.0,33.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm going to start at the beginning. Where and when were you born?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=34.0,37.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I was born in Florence, Arizona, in February of 1941","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=38.0,45.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in Florence, yeah, Florence, Arizona. Did you grow up in Florence?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=46.0,49.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, but I was born there and then that was my, my that was the the home of my mother's family. It's a very big family and a very big house, and she wanted to have me born in the same house where her mother was so right before I was born, they drove down from Clifton, which is where I was raised, to Florence, so I could be born. They I was born in Florence using the infirmary at their state prison. This is in the early 40s, and after I was born, and everything was okay, they drove back to Clifton, which is where I lived, where our family was, that's where my father's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=50.0,89.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: family, what was your mother's family in Florence was? It was her","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=90.0,94.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: name? Yeah, Ortega. Ortega. Okay, her father's name was, I think it was Fernando Ortega, because her my uncle, was also from and he was named after his father, yeah, and her mother was a Bustamante Ortega. They were immigrants from Mexico as a result of the Mexican Revolution. They were, you had to leave because they had they were not on Pancho Villa's best side. Okay, became good friends of Pancho Villa's last widow, really? Yeah, she lives in, she lives in a big house, in her museum, or dead, I know she's dead now, and and she was, he had a number of wives, some dead, some illegitimate, some whatever. And she, she had a big house in her Museum, and he would go visit her. She would tell stories. But she, she did it for money. People would come and they would leave her 10 pesos or whatever. So he was, he had many pictures of him and Pancho Villa's wife.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=95.0,162.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, that's great. So, so you were raised in Clifton, right? And did you go to high school there? Yeah, Clifton High School. Clifton High School, graduated in 5058 okay? Did you get politically active at that time? I mean, were you politically interested as","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=163.0,189.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: as a kid? Well, it's interesting. My father was the one. I wasn't directly involved in politics in high school, or even, my father was extremely active in County politics. He was a, he was a, at one time, a County Chairman Greenie County. He was active in the local Democratic Party and and was recognized as such.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=190.0,214.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What was his first name, Frank, and what, what did he do? He was a owner","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=215.0,220.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of a of the Photoshop for a portrait studio.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=221.0,226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So he was a photographer, yeah, okay. And your mother","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=227.0,229.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: nurse, she was a nurse at the hospital, okay? And you have siblings, yeah, I had a brother who passed away. He was in a horrible accident, was rendered a quadriplegic and ultimately died from complications from the effects in his body of accident, quadriplegia, a sister, three sisters.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=230.0,256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, Martha. Martha is here","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=257.0,258.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in town as a teacher, Doolin. Doolin Middle School, he taught Dave Nixon, Ellen","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=259.0,269.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Wheeler, boy, you know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=270.0,276.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: my sister Martha, who was a teacher in human retired. And then my oldest sister, Christina, who's been a manager, a director of a division of HBO in Denver, to corporate offices, she is just retiring this year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=277.0,294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, and the one in Yuma, what's her name? Robert. Becca, Rebecca, okay, okay. So, from high school in Clifton, did you go right to the University of Arizona? Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=295.0,306.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: exactly. I got a scholarship. Went to U of A and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=307.0,309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: what did you study?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=310.0,313.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Ultimately, ended up studying history and political science at the time when I got there, who knows? I can't remember, where is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=314.0,323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: is that? Is that where you first met Terry Bracey, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=324.0,326.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, yeah, as a matter of fact, well, I may have met Terry when he was still a reporter. Terry was reporter for Channel Four. No, that would have been after graduate school. I met Terry in graduate when he Terry arrived from St Louis to go to graduate school here in Tucson at the Department of Government. And He came here, he told me, because the director, the department chair, current shields, had written about a book democracy and Catholicism in America, and Terry had read that book and wanted to go to graduate school with curry shields as his mentor. So he arrived here in Tucson graduate school, and he and I and Earl, the sort of became colleagues in graduate school together. Got to know each other very well. Terry ultimately became a very good friend. I met his wife before she was his wife. She was in graduate school too, so it was that sort of a thing, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=327.0,389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, you were just telling me about your mother coming through Ruby, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=390.0,393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, yeah, what happened was, this is 1950 and the Mexican Revolution, panchavi is dominated in the North. He comes through these towns in Sonora, Santa Cruz was the semi rural town in northern Mexico that my father my these are my mother's parents and her and her brother and sisters lived. And Pancho V came through and and basically told my grandfather to get out. Well actually, the way it worked is a neighbor came and told my grandfather that the word was a Pancho Villa was going to come to his house and burn it, and they needed to leave. So in the middle of the night, my grandfather with these big oxen, kind of big, the ones that are that oxen pulled these big Well, remember","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=394.0,448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: he can I interrupt","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=449.0,451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Absolutely. What I would rather do, though, is have you speak into this mic, if I can get it off of me. Is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=452.0,461.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: that the mic? Oh, that Mike, it was a wheat wagon because our grandfather owned the town mill, and he was also the justice of the peace, and they owned a little bit of property. So although they were very poor, it was a very poor little village. In the village, they had more. And so that's why Pancho Villa was going to burn. You wanted all the he was he wanted the to get rid of the rich people, and he wanted the wheat so he was a target. My grandfather was a target. And what was your grandfather's name? Ortega, Fernando, Ortega. And that's why they had the wheat wagon,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=462.0,498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right? And there's a big wagon, right? So my mother is a little girl, five, five year old, and plus all the others, and they pack up their furniture as much as they can, and it's going to be taken via auction to the United States. But to get the United States, they got to come across these you come across and there are these mining camps, Ruby being one of them. And my little okay, my mother, as a five year old, said she was seated on the top of the wagon, and she had, she was her father had said, you can only have one toy. And so she got a, she got a it was a her favorite doll, this little girl doll, like she had a word for it, and she remembers, she remembers vividly carrying it on the top of this big wagon as they went by. Oxygen. It dead at night from Santa Cruz on the northern scenario, across the ridge and into the United States. It's 1915 of course, there's not what's there no roads or anything. And they and they got to Ruby, the mining camp. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=499.0,567.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: let me just I'll tell you, my mother told me a little bit of a different story. She said she was in the wagon and she forgot her dolly, and that she said to her father, can I go get my dolly? And he said, No, we'll be back tomorrow, because they were just leaving. They or they will be back very soon. They were just leaving while Pancho Villa came through do his thing. They took very little with him, just enough to get out of there, because they left in the dead of night. And he said, we'll be back, don't worry. So they left. Left with she never had her doll. They go over to Ruby. This is what Mother told me. I'm sure they go over to Ruby. They wait until they get word from, you know, the people in the town that they can come back. The Pancho Villa has come through, done whatever he's going to do, laugh, leaves. They come back. It's been flattened. Everything they owned, that they owned, burned to the ground, the house, the mill, everything. So when they come to the United States, they literally come because then they came back with nothing. So when Tucson, the city of Tucson, chose to put up the statue of Pancho Villa downtown, my mother, you know, to many Mexicans, Pancho Villa was nothing but a criminal. He was, you know, he destroyed property, he brutalized women. He was horrible. And so when they put a statue up to him. She was like, furious.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=568.0,664.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's great Tucson. And let","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=665.0,665.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: me just say one more thing, since we're getting this on record, what I think is so amazing about my mother's family is they moved to Florence, because I think they had a cousin there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=666.0,675.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: something. My grandfather had a some relative who was working in the fields in Florence, right? So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=676.0,680.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: they go to Florence. They have 11 children, all of those children, all of them either went into the military, like one of them became an officer, two of them became officers, yeah, Colonel, or received professional degrees. My mother was an RN, a couple of uncles were educators. Became principals. Some went to business school. It was all different, but all of them received advanced education after coming here with nothing. That's amazing. That is amazing, all 11","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=681.0,717.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of them. All 11, very unusual. Father was a very modest guy. He didn't have much, he didn't have any education, as far as I can tell, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=718.0,729.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: he could do calculus in his head. Yeah, that's what Mother used to say, calculus, yes. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=730.0,736.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: what was his profession? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=737.0,738.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he was, he started out as a labor kind of guy and ended up his job that led that he went to work with Arizona public service. He was a lineman, okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=739.0,748.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: Built a house in Florence, yeah, he and his sons built a Mexican Hacienda in Florence, big, sprawling, still there, still there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=749.0,756.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And that's the place where you were, where they took you to be born, yes, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=757.0,760.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that's, I have a spinster aunt that still lives there, yeah, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=761.0,766.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: all right, now we're gonna go take you back to college. You were saying that that's where you Terry and I met in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=767.0,773.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: graduate school. Earl de Berg, yeah, and the three of us sort of hung out, you know, and went to classes and did all that stuff, got our graduate work done there. And then Terry. That's when Terry left and went to Channel Four as a news anchor, a news reporter, and in doing his news report, I think that's how I got to know Mo. And then that's I think then Mo, or Dick Olson, or one of the guys hired him as a press press aide in Washington. That's how his career started in Washington. Okay, that would have been about 6066","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=774.0,818.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 67 something like that. So did you get a graduate degree at the U of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=819.0,823.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: A many years later, I got my master's. I just never I left to go to Earl, and I quit graduate school to open our business back in 65 so we both dropped out of graduate school, but he then continued on because he was still in Arizona, and I left because I went back to Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=824.0,845.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So what was that? What was that business? The","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=846.0,849.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: business that you know, that Earl has today, that's the business he and I started in 1965","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=850.0,854.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and that was that behavioral research, yeah, Behavior Research Center, okay? And it was polling,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=855.0,861.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, polling, public opinion studies, commercial research, stuff like that. And was that in Tucson or in Phoenix? We started in Tucson, then we moved to Phoenix, and it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=862.0,871.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: still ongoing. Oh yeah, yeah, that's his business. So were you co founders?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=872.0,876.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, exactly. Okay. It was a reason we both left graduate school together. Okay, was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=877.0,882.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was that? I mean, obviously it's successful. It's still, oh yes, he's done very well. So how did, how did you first get involved with Mo,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=883.0,893.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: doing polling? Well, let me see now for Mo, i. Uh, in the mid, in this early 60s, when I was an undergraduate, I got very active in Democratic Party politics through the University of Arizona. I was active in Young Democrats. I worked as a campaign volunteer and then as a paid aide while in school for Sam Goddard when he ran for governor. So I was in and around the Democratic Party in Pima County fairly actively, from the time I was probably the end of my freshman year until I left the university at some level. And it was in that period of time I got to know Stewart as a congressman, because he was a member of Congress, it was the beginning of the Kennedy years he had gotten his job as interior and Mo was county attorney, I guess, or he just gotten elected. I mean, it was all. It was early 60s, or, I'm not sure the exact chronology, but I know that I knew Stuart, and I knew that through Stewart and Dick Schweitzer, who was his campaign aide, that I got to know Sam Goddard, and they hired me to help during the campaign. And in that mix of people, I know that Congressman Udall would come to town and and Terry then joined the staff. And it was in that period, about 1966 that that we were doing our polling work. Both Earl and I started freelancing while in graduate school, and had clients. We had clients from the Chamber of Commerce, from Tucson, citizen and we were, we were selling public opinion polls, both for policy reasons, but citizen was interested in in a feature, they hired Earl and I to do what they called, at the time, the citizen poll, and on a regular basis, about every two months or three months, whatever we would put out a series of we would do. They paid us. They were graduate students. We're getting paid to go get interviews done, to hire people to do interviewing, then we would write the reports and they would publish them. And that we did that for about a year or so. And it was in that context that Terry said, Well, why don't you guys do some polling for Mo? You know that would be about 66 I guess? Yeah, I think was 60 I'm not sure. So we did, that's how I got to know him, because we were the pollsters, okay, and and I was more involved in that than Earl, because, coincidentally, it was at about the same time that Earl. See, Earl is a Phoenician at heart. He's not a tucsonian. He was here for graduate school, but he his family lives in Phoenix. His father owned a Burke electric, a big company in Phoenix, and he wanted to go back. And that was part of the motivation. So coincidentally, when this other stuff on the campaign was ginning up Earl was we were moving part of the his business, the consulting business, to Phoenix, so he wasn't that interested in it. So he didn't, he didn't play the same role that I did. And out of that, doing that work, I got to know the other staff people. Got to know Dick Olson and Roger Lewis Terry. They were the three main ones. I think reveles was there, off and on. I'm not I'm never sure when Bob was in and out, because he was connected to Stuart, but he was also connected to Frank Thompson, New Jersey, and I'm not sure. But anyway, and it was after that period, after that campaign, that Terry then said, you know, there's, there's going to be an opening in Washington soon, and, and I really think that that you should consider moving to Washington to work from home in Washington. And the other guys were said that would be a good thing to do. I'm still the other guys","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=894.0,1138.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: being Roger Lewis and Dick's, right, sir. I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1139.0,1143.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: years later, I found out what that job was. Moe was having his affair with Ella at the time, and Ella was one of his staff people that he had on patch through the post office committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1144.0,1156.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was she with the post office subcommittee or? Well, then all this he made","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1157.0,1160.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: up. In those days, you'd had the post House committee, and then the chairman would say, Okay, we're gonna who wants to have that sub. And you would decide it was sort of a, you could be your own sub committee chair if you had a seniority Uh huh. So yeah, he whatever. He called it. He just called it. It didn't make a dime's worth of difference. Well, technically, the difference it made is that if you were on what is called the permanent staff of the committee, you've got a much higher pay rate. This was thanks to a guy named Charlie Johnson, which is a whole other story, but so that's really the only difference. So Ella, but Ella had the slot, the patronage, and she was his girlfriend. Was working there, and what was her job, hanging around with Mo, going to the club, drinking, I don't know. There was no work involved, but so they said when? And then I found out, usually, the reason they said there might be an opening is it was an open secret. I wasn't there. I was there too, son, of course, that he and Ella had a thing and that they were working to get his divorce done so they could get married, and as soon as they got married, she would have to leave the committee, because you can't be married. You could, but mo wasn't going to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1161.0,1234.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: have that. But his divorce wasn't final at that time. Well, maybe it was hers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1235.0,1238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean, I don't really know. They said it was some legal I mean, this is years later. They're telling me these stories, yeah, because I didn't know how I was hired. I just know I got a call and Mo said, you know, I've got this opening coming up. We'd really like you to join us. So, so I said, Fine, okay, my wife was we were very well ensconced here in Tucson, I was an instructor at Dova, moving Maryland along towards my doctorate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1239.0,1264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What were you teaching? Political Science, three and 400","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1265.0,1269.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: level courses. 300 level political science. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1270.0,1273.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: when have you gotten married?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1274.0,1275.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 65","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1276.0,1278.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, and angeline's Your daughter a result of that marriage, that's right. Okay, so you moved back to Washington, and what was your initial job? You were obviously with the postal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1279.0,1291.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Postal. They put me on the committee payroll initially, I ultimately ended up on multiple payrolls. It was just a question of, you know, putting how much money could we get? And then which committee, a subcommittee could we get the money from? You're probably familiar how it works, or work in those days on the hill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1292.0,1310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, tell us, because that needs to be recorded as well. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1311.0,1314.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know what it is today, because of all this post Watergate and corruption and all that stuff. And when I went back there, every member of Congress had what was called their clerk hire. Clerk hire was a phrase meaning total control of this of the staff that you hire on a bundle of money called clerk hire money. The vast majority of a congressman staff came from their clerk hire. That would be like your congressional staff hire. And then there was other payroll that a member of Congress was entitled to. If he was a sub committee chairman, you got a chunk of money, and so the more seniority you had, the more of these bundles of cash that you could apply for. Clerk for your staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1315.0,1371.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did the staff have have to work for that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1372.0,1375.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, no, you just had to get a paycheck. Okay? So, for example, I worked the majority of the years that I worked for Mo. I was doing 90% political. I was his bag man. These were before Watergate. I would get contributions from lobbyists. You know, I would deal with that and other political I did a little bit of of postal work, in the sense that I managed hearings or but there were other people that did it. I mean, there were no I had a big staff. And, you know, like you got to know that little Jewish girl who worked for Mo and the committee, and also in the Congress and in the campaign. And she has a nickname for herself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1376.0,1429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I know who you're talking about, but I can't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1430.0,1431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well anyway, she was an example. She she worked for the post House committee, but she worked for a bus, so the payroll you were on, was not determinant of the job you had. In the many cases. And it's all related to seniority system. A first term would have his Kirk hire, and he would hire whatever he could afford, to hire on a small amount of money, relatively but as his seniority group, he would be, I mean, I know, for instance, Mo, I'll try and think of a mature example. He would have his clerk higher, which is, say, at half a million dollars. He was chairman of a subcommittee of the Congress. Say that's worth $300,000 so now he's got $800,000 for staffing, for his use, for staffing. Then he's chairman of the congressional the Congressional Committee on Standards of official conduct. He. Yeah, so you're entitled to $200,000 for that staffing. Now, theoretically, each of these are for staffing those things, but every one of these have professional staff. They're not just, you know, they're, they're, it's like a it's like the Soviet system. You have the bureaucracy and he had the party, uh huh. In other words, they were, they were doing the same thing. And then he was also chairman of the franking Commission, which regulated the use of the congressional Frank because it had some slanders on it or something. Then he was, that's four that I'm thinking of as we speak. And then he and then he and Ted Kennedy alternated the this House, Senate Committee on technology assessment, the Office of Technology Assessment, for all those years, he and Kennedy rotated the chairmanship. That's our Jessica Tuckman got hired. She was hired. She worked for mo speech writer political but sheriff's payroll was the Office of Technology Assessment. Okay, so that's fine that I so the point is, so these were all patronage positions. Oh, everyone is patronage. There's no The Hill had no nothing other bit of that, and so, so you add all that up, well, you don't might have a million half and a half dollars worth of payroll every year, but that on the record, he's a member of Congress. Well, he's a hell of a lot more than that. Now, visualize yourself as the chairman of a full committee in appropriations or defense, or, wow, and when he got to interior, I'm sure he got a big chunk of change. So that's how it worked. So in my case, afterwards, there a while, and we sorted out, you know, like I would say, I started out, I was just on the post office committee doing and they started, I started doing other stuff, like, we need to get some polling done or something. So we would decide that I needed more money me, as well as the projects. So they'd say, Well, we'll add $5,000 from the Frankie commission budget. So all of a sudden, instead of making 25,000 I was making 30 but 25 was clerk higher and five was so there was, there were times when I was on four different payrolls.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1432.0,1645.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: For curiosity, what was your starting salary? There? Do you recall,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1646.0,1650.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think was around a little less than 20,000 I think it was little less than 20,000 as I recall, you're right. I thought it was a lot of money. I know that it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1651.0,1660.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: seemed like when, when you went back to Washington, a number of people started around. Then a lot of new staff came on. Terry, you Bonnie?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1661.0,1669.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Terry recruited me, and then Bonnie Kell. Bonnie came in about the same time. Dee Jackson. Dee Jackson, her husband had died of cancer. She needed a job, and now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1670.0,1680.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: had she been a friend of Ella's before she","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1681.0,1682.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: could have been I don't know. I really don't know how she got the job, but this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1683.0,1686.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: would explain how he had the money to suddenly have the staff expand during","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1687.0,1692.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that knows how he did it. This was Roger's job. I thought that mo do hardly any of this. Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1693.0,1697.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, that gets me to just your impressions when you first got back to Washington and first got in the office. If you can just give me your impressions of the staff of Roger, Louis, dickelson, Mo, you know just, just your impressions when you first got there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1698.0,1720.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, you know, every congressional office in those years, at its core are identical. So you walk in, there's a particular reception area, and in the back is the one room you could have your depends. You could have your press office or AA, whatever you had in our shot office, you had Roger Lewis and Dick Olson in the same area. Roger was Rogers main job. First of all, Roger was a very you got to know him. Was a very odd fellow. He was he was Moe's, he was most conservative, keep your feet on the ground person. He's the one always say, most shouldn't be doing that, or we can't afford that, or you can't. He was, that's what he did. And he was, he was very good at it. And so, you know, we'd come in there brimming with some ideas, and we knew that Rogers back in the corner mumbling to himself, and eventually says, you know that that won't work. Says, we can go talk to him over that ain't gonna","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1721.0,1792.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: work. Was he right? It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1793.0,1796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was Rogers natural conservatism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1797.0,1800.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And he was the administrative assistant. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1801.0,1803.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he was called administrative assistant. But what Roger was was the District rep in Washington. 90% of Rogers work was dealing with local people in the district.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1804.0,1815.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So his focus was Arizona. Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1816.0,1816.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He hated politics. He hated the campaign. He he resisted to the bitter end of Moe was going to run for president. He said he should be the best congressman in America. He doesn't need to be president. What will it get him? He won't win. I mean, no, Roger was the was the quintessential staffer who represents the district and was very good at it. And he saw the job, Roger saw the job, I think, in terms of the major constituencies of the district. So it was water. He spent half his time with Morley Fox getting the Central Arizona Project passed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1817.0,1856.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So he was a lead person on that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1857.0,1858.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: or well inside the office he, I know he advised him, well, a lot on on that, but you had, of course, you had an entire committee then run by Wayne Aspinall that was doing water. You know, he was, he wasn't even on the subcommittee, so he had to do it extracurricular, through conversations with members and and the lobbyists. Morley Fox was the chief lobbyist for the cap in Washington and the others, but So Roger, though. Then it was the agricultural interest. A lot of agricultural interests farmers, a lot of the big farmers, cotton farmers, things like that would come, and then we would see the other constituents. Roger Wood was the greeter. Generally speaking, it wasn't political. He never would deal. I would always Iowa. Jack Olson, secondarily. Terry, if a really serious politician was going to be coming to the office, serious being the governor, another congressman from somewhere else, or the mayor, Roger. Roger would talk to the mayor on occasion, if there was a federal grant that we might be involved in, like a housing grant or, you know, money for grounds, highways, that sort of thing. But by and large, he didn't do that stuff that is political,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1859.0,1946.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: but if constituents came in, oh, absolutely the one degree well, but we also","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1947.0,1950.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had, we had a really good case workers Roger would bring him in. But Roger had an assistant, a to factor assistant for years, whose face I see right in front of me? She was a chief caseworker. I can't remember her name,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1951.0,1966.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and I'm not sure I have it here, though, I would be able to supplement it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1967.0,1977.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, I don't have the name here. I can add that in though to the transcript. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1978.0,1982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: anyway, she she was the one that really was quite good we had over the years, a few other she was there the longest and the best. She was there all the way through the campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=1983.0,2001.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And she would take care of things like lost Social Security.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2002.0,2007.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: She was a bulldog and Roger, she worked very well together. She would go to talk. They were very close. They would go have breakfast together and stuff like so they worked together very closely. Damn. I wish I can remember her name anyway. So that was Rogers, Bailey wick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2008.0,2024.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And what about Dick Olson? Well, Dick Dick was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2025.0,2028.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the chief speech writer, policy maker. He was responsible for, for working with Mo on all of Mo's writings, his newsletters. Remember he was writing a lot of newsletters, essays. And so Dick was responsible for the wordsmithing, the development the presser, the the initial press releases. Then Terry took over the press work. That was part of what Harry was Terry was tired for to take on the actual press dealings. Dealing with the press in Arizona, they were beginning, they were already beginning to think about ramping up nationally, because Mo was wanting to run for majority leader and then Speaker and all of that. So they needed a national press presence so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2029.0,2071.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so part of part of that influx of new staff during that period of time was in anticipation of running for leadership. Looking back on it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2072.0,2081.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: at the time, I didn't think anybody, but looking back on it, you know, I could see what Terry's job was, Terry, Terry's job. There was no Terry's job before Terry. So that meant that there was a function that had to be filled. And he became very smooth and asked. No press. He, you know, he was, he was the guy that, if you're Jim Jones of the LA Times, first name basis, you know, that was what he did, plus he did the he did the press releases, any kind of media thing. I was going to do an interview. He was responsible for briefing him and getting him to, you know, it was all that kind of stuff that you do. Dick probably had all of those jobs before Terry, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2082.0,2132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it was probably a more minor role before","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2133.0,2134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and then Dick focused more and more on the writing. I have to think of it in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, for a congressional office to have this specialized thing, you know that we're talking about, from 1967 on, basically you gotta, you gotta have a highly specialized staff. And even if you think about it today, there are very few congressmen today that have that specialized staff. But here you had a staff, one person who did primarily writing, and I'm talking about serious writing, not this crap newsletters, they do now that are","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2135.0,2173.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: pictures. Most newsletters were incredible. Oh yeah, they were real essays. He wrote some himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2174.0,2179.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, absolutely, Dick. Dick. The way it would work was that Dick would have an idea and would talk to moe about it, and sometimes Mo said, Well, I'll take a whack at it. Or sometimes Dick would take a whack at it, and then Mo and he would edit it. Dick always edited in either event. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2180.0,2200.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: they were very substantive, as I recall. Oh, they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2201.0,2202.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: are, yeah, just go into the archives. They're essays. I mean, they're real essays, and some of them still, I mean, most early writings on the deficits and the impact of a deficit on the economy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2203.0,2220.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I remember reading one, I think it was when I was in college and an intern or something, on environment where, where he suggested, you know, saving water by by turning off the water faucet while you're brushing your teeth. And I think about that, I swear every third time I brush my teeth, so they must have had an impact,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2221.0,2244.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: sure, sure. And we were sending these, you know, to everybody in the district. It was a big mailings. Because, remember, before reapportionment, the geography was was much greater. So anyway, that's what Dick did, plus Dick would meet with certain it was unwritten, but there was sort of an understanding if certain types of people coming to the offices, constituents or guests, who Dick would handle, who I would handle, who Terry might have. You know, it was sort","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2245.0,2284.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: of we just knew it was unwritten, but yeah, sort of Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2285.0,2288.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and Bonnie was the gatekeeper. And a lot of times we just talked to Bonnie and so and so. Tell me, what do you think she said? Well, I think that this is something Terry would work","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2289.0,2297.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: with Mo on, or something. Now was Bonnie there when you arrived, she had just come. Okay, she just come. And did her predecessor leave? Louise Greenfield,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2298.0,2307.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think Louise has gone back to Tucson, or was in Tucson. Okay, okay, yeah, I don't know the again this before I was there, so I don't know the history of why she left, or any of that. All I know is Bonnie was there and Dee was there. Dee had just arrived also, and Dee was the receptionist, and Bonnie was the personal secretary to the congressman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2308.0,2330.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, where you also, you also manage most campaigns? Well, didn't you, or not","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2331.0,2337.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the first one, but all of them thereafter, I and Terry, but Terry did the media and I did the campaign operations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2338.0,2346.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What was your first one would have been 68 would have been 68 okay? And who had run the campaigns up till then at that I guess Terry","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2347.0,2356.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and Dick, I don't know. Okay? And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2357.0,2358.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: starting in 68 it would be you and Terry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2359.0,2362.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, basically the way it worked was in, let's see, the election would be September. Would probably Terry and I would go out about July, late July, because typically we didn't have a primary opponent. Sometimes we'd have these crazies from the west side. You know, I think even Raul ran against this one time. Raul Grijalva, Oh, really. Back when he was a young fire brand. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2363.0,2387.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think there was a Grijalva. I'll have to look that up. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2388.0,2391.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think he ran against this once. But anyway, the point is, we'd get off in July, and we had here, there was a guy named Hart. Harry Karcher, who was the CPA, and Harry was our campaign treasurer, and we always had money, you know, from the previous campaign. So we'd go out there and we'd open up a campaign office on some storefront, typically on Broadway or down in that area downtown, yeah, you know, sort of down there somewhere. Think one year we did it on the west side for I think it was a political reason, somebody owned a building, and we said, well, let's give them some business. We'd set up a campaign headquarters and would pick a day and announce it opening the year all campaign headquarters, but would show up, would, you know, eat a taco or whatever, be on his way. And our job, Terry and my job, was to formulate the campaign plan if there was going to be any sort of serious opposition, and Terry's job, and then to implement it, and that meant I was responsible for finding volunteers. Typically, I would find one or two. I could pay them 50 bucks a week and then tell them to go find me whoever volunteers we might need, because we typically ran a media campaign, and the volunteer thing was for a show for enthusiasm, but not we didn't see it as an integral part of winning or losing. It was more of keeping keeping things going and the community and activated the party. The party was very important, and you had all these legislative district races, and we could put money to them. I could put money into a legislative district race under our campaign. So those kinds of things. So and then after the campaign, we win there, they're in a much better frame of mind. Terry's job was solely medium.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2392.0,2518.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, was that was there that how many campaigns during that period of time, in the 60s had active media going on? Was that sort of the early days of it? It was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2519.0,2528.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: very early, and Terry was probably one of the earliest filmmakers, because Terry really worked to produce film campaign. I'm sure you've got those in the archives, versus video, or the studio the station doing it, that sort of thing. And there was some really nice stuff. I don't know if he did it in 66 because he may have been in that interregnum between leaving Channel Four and coming to Congress. It could have been 60 it was the first one, I don't know, but, you know, I have,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2529.0,2571.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think it was probably 68 Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2572.0,2573.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I have vague, I have very clear memories of certain of the campaigns. Others, it was just campaigns. I think if you asked me the name of the opponents, I couldn't give you all of them, because, you know, we were just putting it. We're working our way through them, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2574.0,2598.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, from 7072 and 6877 I couldn't tell you who we","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2599.0,2604.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: 74 so I went through five campaigns, 6870 7274 76 and both. 74 and 76 Terry and I were, were managing two campaigns. We were managing keeping the one in Arizona alive in the sense of visibility. But then we were responsible also for the midterm Democratic National Committee. Remember that the Kansas City Convention right all that. So he and I were at the same time, were involved in nationally, getting that put together and organizing the members of Congress. Remember, there was going to be a groundswell of support. We had to we organized the congressman who petitioned him to run for president. That was all in late 74","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2605.0,2656.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well and in in 1972 i Two, you worked for muskie also didn't you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2657.0,2666.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, Terry and I worked for muskie and McGovern. That's another story. Moe had made a decision in 72 that muskie was going to be the guy that could beat Nixon. He was Nixon 72 Yeah, because the impeachment was 73 and so he had told us that muskie was his guy. So we're staffers. Okay, Musk is our guy, and Roger was the only one who really wanted to be covered in. Really the conservative in the but it's he was a populist and he was anti Vietnam. Roger hated Vietnam. Remember, Roger is a Canadian American. He's not just","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2667.0,2711.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: an American. I didn't realize that. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2712.0,2714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So anyway, when muskie blew up, when he went in New Hampshire and cried and withdrew. We had no candidate. So we Terry and I had become had I had been an acquaintance, Terry, a friend with a guy named Rick Stearns. Rick Stearns is now a federal judge in Massachusetts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2715.0,2739.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, he is yes, hold on, I'm going to flip the tape over so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288#t=2740.0,2742.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270288/transcript/78605/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/605/original/azu_ms396-014_side1_a.vtt?1744913582","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/605/original/azu_ms396-014_side1_a.vtt?1744913582"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 4 - azu_ms396-014_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2745.072,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/289/original/azu_ms396-014_side2_a.mp3?1744847800","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2745.072,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: A system until then. So anyway, Rick was a young guy who worked for George McGovern and who who had been hired and was mentored by Gary Hart. So after McGovern blew up, Rick came to us and said that after the convention, that they could use our help, if we were willing, if we were interested. That's Terry and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1.0,39.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I You mean after muskie?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=40.0,40.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, we'll see musky blew up and well, govern was the fait accompli that would have been in the summer, I guess, June, July, whatever I don't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=41.0,51.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: know. Back up a minute, what did you What did you all do for muskie? Were you active? Actively part of the campaign staff. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=52.0,60.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: no. Terry probably would be the most active in that on the press side. He probably was dealing with the press on what a good guy Musk was, and Moe really liked him. Okay, okay, Moe was very active. Moe went, traveled with him, and, you know, had fundraisers for him and that sort of thing. But I was not involved, other than, you know, just being there and if Terry needed something on the press side. But we were not like we were with McGovern. But anyway, with McGovern, after we asked Rick what he had in mind, he said that what they wanted was people, people who would be willing to go in and set up a troubleshooting operation for the campaign. And the rationale at the time, as I remember it, was that the the ascendant of the it was sort of like the Dean campaign, the radicals won, the government was going to be the nominee, and yet, all these established state parties and others who were very skeptical and had to be talked to, had to make friends who had to do something. So they asked Terry and I if we would be willing to take on that role in the Western United States, to go to their various states and to troubleshoot for the McGovern presidential campaign. On assignment they would,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=61.0,153.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to some extent, was this winning over prior muskie people? Well, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=154.0,157.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was that, and it was also firing McGovern people so that the establishment could take control. And I mean, I can tell, tell you some of the stories, but so what we did is in Tucson, we had the Utah campaign storefront operation right next door. There was an office that was a mirror of a campaign office with no signs. And that was the McGovern, Western United States, troubleshooting office with telephones and all the stuff. And it connected Terry and I to that part of the McGovern campaign. Nobody even knew about it. Okay. People for the Utah campaign were volunteering right next door, and they knew that John and Terry had some office over there, and they, you know, that was it. So what would happen is and Rick Stearns was the our boss. Rick was now the number two guy to the campaign, to Gary Hart, and Rick would have an example, Rick would call up and say he told this is when he told me that I always liked he said, You got to go to Nevada, Las Vegas. He said, we've got the County Chairman up there and whatever, whatever, and he's got to go, and he's got to be replaced with so and so and so and so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=158.0,245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That doesn't sound like a very pleasant job. No, it wasn't. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=246.0,248.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: wasn't. What it was is you're you go in and you go out, go in and say, you do the dirty deal. I represent the McGovern campaign. We made some personal changes, and it's always the candidate, Senator Gu I would like Jim here to become the new County Chairman, and we'd like you to step aside, and I represent the national campaign so see, he had no an individual just been screwed over. Had no appeal. It wasn't that you say, Well, I'm going to call up the governor or something. The governor. Who the hell is the governor going to call the Senator? So anyway, I went to, I went to Las Vegas, and they said, I was told I would be met by ex representative of the people that were going to replace the other people said, Fine, these. All names, and I'm just strangers that rise on an airplane and and so I get off. And if you I don't know if you know what Las Vegas is now, but Las Vegas then was run by union mobsters, union I'm talking about. And so this guy who looked like something out of Damon Runyon, and two or three of his henchmen are waiting for me, and they're going to be the he's going to be the County Chairman, and he's like, he looks like, he really looks like mafioso and and, but there it's the bartenders and hotel the people who run the casinos, that's the unions that run Las Vegas. Now, hopefully","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=249.0,344.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that's not who you were firing. Oh, he's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=345.0,346.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the good guy. Oh, good. He was there now, but the guy fired was just like him. See, all this turned out to be in the in the long run, internecine warfare in a given region. So the young guys who were McGovern guys, meaning they had probably given more money, were able to kick out the other guys because they didn't give. I mean, I was never told why they were going. I was only brought in to tell them I was the lean on of hands of the new guys and the dismissal of the old guys with the imprimatur of the Democratic National Committee,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=347.0,382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I would imagine that that engendered some pretty bad feelings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=383.0,386.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I got out of town. I did. I went to Hawaii, and the same thing happened there, and they were, Hawaii is more mobbed up and unionized than Nevada. I was then seafarers union and the seafarers were in charge, because in the 70s, the seafarers were one of the richest unions in the country. The seafarers international huge givers of money to the Democratic National Committee. I never realized that. So if they ran Hawaii and and Hawaii, that's why Hawaii, this day is a democratic state. It's mobbed up, it's unionized. And so I was brought in to get rid of a whole gaggle. I had to go into an office, an office building in Honolulu, go into this office building. They were probably 20 or 30 people. I was expected this what I was told to do by the my masters say, Go in, call Jim Jones and his staff together. Introduce yourself. Tell them who you are. Tell them what they got to do, which is leave and the Tony, whoever would be coming and taken over the operation of the office as the new County Chairman. They knew whatever the title was, and then they said, and just leave, and we'll get you back on your airplane to the mainland. That's what they did. I have no idea what happened after that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=387.0,476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I would think that I would correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine a lot of the people you were firing, so I would, and there were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=477.0,486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: local things, these are some of the more dramatic things. But, and I'm sure that, see, Terry and I would go our separate ways on the McGovern stuff, I really don't know. I probably have some vague memories that we talked about. He probably did some writing for Rick. He may have done, I don't really know, but I, I know we both had the same offices, but you weren't doing the same thing. No, I would always go by myself, yeah, and be met by somebody there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=487.0,515.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I was. I would just think that the the people you were firing might often have been the people who initially, you know, organized and got the vote out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=516.0,527.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Could have been, could have been. You need to understand something else about the governing campaign we all knew roughly, say, two weeks after the convention, that we were going to lose. And one of the things that we had to do was to lie through our it that we had polls that showed us winning or tying or just to keep, to keep people's enthusiasm, but we knew that he wasn't going to win. Rick, the leadership of the campaign knew they would take a miracle for him to overcome some of the numbers that Pat Caddell. Pat Caddell was the pollster then was bringing in and Gary and the triumvirate with Cadell, Gary Hart and Rick Stearns, and Rick would tell us that, you know, but we would go into these places and make a pitch. I had to go to a couple of places. I can't remember. I think one was in Colorado, and I had to raise money. And what they did is they would set up, I say, typically, a breakfast or a lunch. College with 15 or 20 people with a lot of money, Democratic Party activists, and my job was to baffle him with bullshit so that we could leave with money for the campaign. And we did it with Paul Fauci lies. But even they were getting suspicious towards the end. But we did that. I did that, and I'm sure Terry did some of that too. What? So at the same time, we're running Moe's campaign. Uh huh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=528.0,630.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: wow, that was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=631.0,633.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: quite an experience. Oh, was it was very interesting. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=634.0,636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: mo have much opposition that year?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=637.0,638.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This would have been 72 I don't know he may have had, was it Morris herring then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=639.0,646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Or that it was the guy that ran for states, which state treasurer? I think it was Morris herring. He tried to claim to be a Mexican I think we burned his ass pad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=647.0,655.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, yeah. I he was. Did not prove to be a factor. I don't think so. With you, did you work on the campaign finance reform? Not","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=656.0,667.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: really that was Terry did that with John Anderson and David Stockman, okay, who went on to be OMB with Reagan, remember? But Stockman was a liberal Republican staffing John Anderson. That's how he and Terry became good friends. We never would have thought he would have turned into a right wing asshole,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=668.0,689.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: but he did. But he originated from Anderson. Yes, wow, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=690.0,693.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He was John Anderson's legislative aide and Terry were counterparts. So Terry's active involvement, and I think Terry's involvement in the campaign Bill had more to do that. He became good friends with some of the reformers who were lobbyists, like the National Committee for an effective Congress, some of the environmental groups, all those who were pushing and he he became part of that group. I never was involved in that, because, frankly, my my work with Mo was much more blue collar politics. To be honest. I handled all the union stuff. I handled all the campaign money of any significance, that kind of stuff and more operational stuff, so pure policy involvements were minimal. I would, I would be involved in the campaign reform only to the extent that Terry and I, and Roger and Moe, we would sit around and talk about elements, you know, this bill will be up for committee or sections of this what I'm thinking about doing and I would be more of an advisor, but I was never, I don't think everyone, if I went to one hearing on it, I was one hearing more than I remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=694.0,769.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Was that also the case with the post office Reform Act? No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=770.0,773.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: no. That was a whole that was a horse of a different color, because one, it was a committee I was responsible for two I was the one thing you got to know about the post office committee is the post office committee was one of the most lucrative committees that you get money from lobbyists on the hill. The postal unions were the most. They probably still are, with the exception maybe the NRA most active lobbying groups giving away millions of dollars because they have all those postal workers who donate involuntarily money into their pack every paycheck. So they had enormous dollars.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=774.0,815.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Realized that, but they were,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=816.0,818.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: oh, yeah, right now, Pastor associates letter carries, unit, Federation of postal clerks. And then there were the supervisors. And there were the Male. Male handlers were run by organized crime. There were, there were a bunch of them. I was the principal contact for all of that stuff, whether it was political or or if they had, if I needed something, one of the great perks of the post House committee was one of our unions was the ones that were the customs inspectors back in the snow when you came into the country. So anytime mo or Ella or anybody was traveling internationally, I'd call up the lobby and say they're going to be make sure you get them through customs, and they would be met at the goddamn foot of the airplane by these these customs guys who would whisk them through in no time, only because they just were told by their bosses in Washington take care of Udall and his party. That was one of the perks that's great. So anyway, when the time came that Nixon, they decided to create this corporation, what became the US Postal Service. It was an agenda of the presidents. They had a postmaster general. Named red Blount and and their lobbyists had just like any agency had come through the through the committee on normal business, but red Blount and Mo had a meeting, and red said, we want to, we want to create this postal Corporation, and here's the benefits to the employees, and here's this, we'd like you Mo Udall, who was not the committee chairman. Committee chairman was an old machine Democrat from Buffalo named Thaddeus dalsky. He was about as bright as his name suggests. So they came to mo to ask him to lead the congressional initiative to create it. Moe agreed, so that immediately put him in the forefront of a major policy initiative that Nixon had pushed as part of Nixon's efforts to get the hell out of the Vietnam War, because they're doing anything they can to change people's views, that was my take, but at the time, it was a major initiative, so I was made responsible, since it was a committee, and I knew the lobbyists for the post office, and I knew the union lobbyists, in particular, because there were going to be some impact on them legislatively to be in developing the bill. And I worked with other postal lobbyist staff, that sort of thing. And the post office we developed, we wrote the bill, the first bill or law as matter of fact. And so if you look at the postal Reorganization Act, the statute, my footprints are probably on 80%","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=819.0,1004.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of it, okay. Well, that's what I had thought. Yeah, the only legislative","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1005.0,1008.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: thing I ever did of any significance, and it was because of this circumstance of politics and the postal unions, because they what happened was, is the unions got very upset, A, that it was a Nixon machine, and B, that upset the status quo, and if they might change their status and lose money, mainly lose money or something. So they were very skeptical, and they were very skeptical, although trying to still be Mo's ally. If they'd had their way, they would have opposed him, but because he had the he also had the ability to screw them on things they wanted, on other issues. So they would come to me and they would say, you know, we were looking at this section of the proposal, and we've had our lawyers look at it, and could you go talk to Moab, because they didn't want to confront him directly. So I became an intermediary for the unions, big unions, unions that have half a million members, 400,000 had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1009.0,1073.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: a lot of clown very significant, oh yeah, huge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1074.0,1075.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: People don't realize it until you get into the business and that doesn't even take into consideration the transport, the UPS is of the world. FedEx was just coming into being then John Smith, no, not John. What was Smith's first name? The founder of Federal Express. Founding Federal Express with a group of marine buddies. One of those marine buddies that that helped him found Federal Express was a lobbyist in Washington who was also Marine, who was a very good friend of the office. He represented some other elements. So, so you had, you had the big non postal, but delivery systems and their lobby, so UPS being the biggest at the time, but FedEx, airborne Express, all that stuff. So you had, you had a real conglomerate of business labor converging on what is a multi, multi billion dollar industry. Forget that it's called the post office. It's a goddamn industry. And so that's what they were looking at. So they were looking at this legislation that was in the business side's mind was going to free up them to make more money, be more efficient, whatever they used. And you had these unions, hundreds of 1000s of members being very skeptical. And you had mo as the champion for Dick Nixon doing this in a Democratic Congress with Democratic leadership who themselves are highly skeptical. We had a lot of leading Democrats oppose the bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1076.0,1180.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Why did they, why did they seek out Moe to sponsor this bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1181.0,1184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Because the chairman of the committee was a machine Democrat. Typically, he would go to the chairman of the committee and say, but Thaddeus Dulsky, a real non entity, if there was one, was Moe the next in line? No, he was chairman of he. Committee of the time, okay, but you got to look the post office committee in those years, had a lot of machine Democrats on it, because it was the, it was widely viewed as a Union Committee, just like education and labor. So you had, like, you had a congressman from New Jersey. What was his name? A very Roman looking guy, and he was on the committee. You had del ski from Buffalo. You had Bill Well, you had the guy who just died from Detroit, Congressman, the short guy, Chair of Education and Labor before the Republicans took over anyway. So you had a lot of machine Democrats, very few from the Jerry waldy was one of the few from the west. So Mo was probably put on the committee for all I know, because speaker McCormick was pissed off or something. I mean, you know, you don't know, in those years, but he was on the committee because the interior was considered his major committee, even though, in the parlance of the house, interior is a minor committee, but that was his major committee. So what he did was he didn't say it explicitly, as I do, because he figured that this was a vehicle, if you got a lemon, make some lemonade. And what he did is he turned the post office committee apparatus into a way for him to get more staff more so he became a subcommittee chairman. He became chairman of the franking commission, all under the Post Office committee. So he racked up these things through the post office committee, even though he was not, never, never has been a chairman of the post office committee. Now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1185.0,1309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in him doing these things to get more staff, what was he What? What was the purpose of the more staff?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1310.0,1317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I mean, well, I guess maybe it was Parkinson's was part of, I mean, not him, Parkinson's Law, you know, work, work expense to fulfill your personnel versus, you know, form doesn't always follow function. But I personally believe that part of it was ambition, on the part of Terry and Dick, that they were always looking for ways to expand the staff. And another part of it, I think, was there was a plan, if not articulated, that that is, as we got more specialized and more competent, his national aspirations. Because, remember, Moe ran for president 76 he ran for majority leader in what, 74 right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1318.0,1364.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: In fact, I know majority leader was 7070","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1365.0,1370.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: think so. Gee. Was it that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1371.0,1372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: early? I believe so. I've got he was ran against John McCormick in 1968","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1373.0,1379.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I remember McCormick. I remember Hale Boggs, so he ran for majority leader two years after McCormick, right? So then there was an interregnum where he turned his attention to planning to run for president,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1380.0,1391.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right, right? So you weren't in the office when he ran for the speakership","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1392.0,1396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yet. Were you or were you? No, I was it was right before I got there. Okay, okay, but I was there for the majority","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1397.0,1402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: leader, right, right? I did want to ask you about that too, of what your memories are about that race. I know from what I understand. Well, one whose idea was, it entirely Mo's idea was it was he encouraged by the staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1403.0,1417.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm sure he was encouraged by the staff. But I think it was also encouraged by there was a group of reform Democrats. They were called the democratic study group. And these had, these had coalesced after, I guess, after the McCormick election, and members, a guy named John brademas, who was a Congressman from Indiana, who founded it, along and Moe was a founding member. And this was a group of members, reform Democrats, that's what they called them, who would meet and talk about policy legislation for the Congress. They created a formal organization, hired an executive director who started putting out legislative bulletins, analysis of bills, position papers that members could use supporting the members who are in the in the caucus all Democrats are focusing on those who are in the Democratic study group, Mo was very active in that we thought we paid money, you know, we took money from our clerk ire and needed to pay part of the executive director. That's things like that. So after the Majority Leader thing, and they were very active in and in a Regnum period, I think, is. So he was encouraged by many of those members. That's where Dick Colby was. In fact, Dick's recently retired staffers. Last job was running the democratic study group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1418.0,1510.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So he was encouraged by the Democratic study group to run for majority leader,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1511.0,1515.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: not as a group, but these individual members who became very good friends of his, there was a group of them. You could identify them by name, and I think over those two years, because they formed also the core of the the members who wrote him the letter saying you should run for president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1516.0,1535.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Okay, they were the same core people. That's right. What happened? What happened with with that race? Because, as I understand it, you and Terry were very, very confident in votes and and those votes didn't come. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1536.0,1549.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in fact, you know, there's a we were, we were relying on first Mo, always talking to every member individually that and he had the same counts, which means I'm always being lied to. He was lied to. But we, Terry and I were also talking to their staff people, and we were and of course, we were getting a very positive response. But later, Terry and I analyzed this that the staffers are always more liberal than their bosses, and they desperately wanted more to be majority leader, and we think they were reflecting their hopes and probably weren't listening as closely to their bosses as they thought They were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1550.0,1598.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Do you think these two failed seniority system challenges in the long run, hurt Moe or helped him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1599.0,1608.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, helped him or hurt him to do what see? The thing about Moe is that, to the press, he was a winner because he had taken on the establishment, and he was beating people. He was getting beat by people who the press felt were old reprobates anyway. So it was the establishment screwing the Reformers again in a place that desperately needed reforming. So if he won, it would have been a great victory. But if he lost, he didn't lose that much to the press, the national press, and a lot of this at that point, you were focused on the national press. How was Time Magazine going to play it? Or how was the long piece that Larry King did for Moe and Harper's, that kind of stuff","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1609.0,1653.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: after the race? I understand there was a short period after the race where Moe considered going other directions, possibly coming back here and teaching law or running against, well, that's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1654.0,1668.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: somebody else's Spanish. I mean the sense that Moe might have said it in a moment of disgust, but now Moe was wedded to the house,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1669.0,1677.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so he had no serious ideas of running against Bannon for,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1678.0,1681.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: oh, no, Senate. Never, he, never, we never even, I don't think, I don't think we ever had a conversation about even doing any polling. I mean, it never got to the stage of, let's go check the polls. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1682.0,1693.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, I've always thought of him. Hard to think of Senator Udall, yeah, maybe a son, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1694.0,1699.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he never thought much of the Senate anyway, right? Institutionally, what was a man of the house?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1700.0,1704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I, as I understand it, about two weeks after he lost the Majority Leader race, you, you wrote a memo in which you voiced the idea of possibly looking to presidential politics, I assume by then. I guess backing up, when did the idea of moe running for president first surface","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1705.0,1732.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: this would have been 72","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1733.0,1735.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, 70 was a race, so no, it would have been 1970 then that you wrote that memo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1736.0,1742.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: sure was that early. Well, it's entirely possible. I mean, Terry and I were very ambitious for Moe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1743.0,1751.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't have, I don't have, I've just got one week after losing to Hale Boggs. That's about right memo. So So was that you and Terry, for the most part,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1752.0,1764.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I wrote the memo. I know the memo. I think I may even have a COVID somewhere, but yeah, I remember, and I remember we talked about it and laid out, I think I didn't, laid out some technical information as to why it would make sense from an electoral college standpoint, I think how we might make it happen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1765.0,1786.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And had had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1787.0,1789.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: this had to do. What did? How did it come up? Got us this a long time ago. I. I remember that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1790.0,1801.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And might, this may not be accurate. This is based on,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1802.0,1805.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I have a memory of it being later, like 74 somewhere in there. But anyway, if it says two weeks after hail, bugs beat us,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1806.0,1817.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: okay, well that can, that can be verified. But had Moe been thinking along those lines as well, or no,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1818.0,1825.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: not in a way that I noticed it from a staff standpoint. You know, we were totally focused on the majority leaders race, but mo used to, Mo has always wanted to be president, and so in his mind, even though, I mean, you know, one of the things about Mo is he's not, he's not a he's close mouthed, even to his staff, he policy and all that is great. But his own ambition and how He sees things happening, you generally keep it close to the vest until there was a reason for it to germinate or for him to bring it up. So I don't have any memories early in those years of him talking openly that really we ought to think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1826.0,1871.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: about running for president, but you and you and Terry definitely, oh yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1872.0,1875.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and Olson, but less so. And Roger hated it. He didn't want to talk to us about it. He said he's a congressman. It's storm off and go to the cafeteria. Now, Roger and I became good friends in those last three years or so. And we would go and have breakfast almost every day together for the work they started and talking about things. Became very good friends. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1876.0,1908.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: when you when you work with muskie and then later with McGovern? Did that have something to do with sort of being a hands on experience for running a presidential campaign. Did you and Terry have in mind using those to get the experience?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1909.0,1927.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Actually, we, when we were really ramping up for the presidency in 70 that would have been Kansas City Convention was 74 right? It was a 75 i Five. What was the when was the midterm? It would have been 7474 I think, in the period, say, the late summer of 74 leading up to the Kansas City Convention, which we used as a dress rehearsal, if you will, for a Mock Convention kind of atmosphere. We had recruited members of Congress and staff to whatever the hell it did, some sort of a mock I don't remember the details, but it had to do with the McGovern reforms from the McGovern commission. I don't even know if they do it anymore, but they did then. It was in that period of time that we actively were talking about that Moe would be a candidate for president, telling people that. So that means we had prepped for it going back probably eight or nine months before that. So probably all of 74 leading up to the midterm that period. And then we were active into the campaign at 75 When did Moe announce? Probably in early spring of 7574","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=1928.0,2011.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he had announced by 70 he announced two years early, the first ever to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2012.0,2015.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, well, that would make sense, based on the Kansas City Convention. And then we were raising money. Then I remember we hired our first staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2016.0,2026.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I remember I went back there in January of 74 I think it was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2027.0,2031.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: for the convention, for the midterm. So you were in Kansas City.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2032.0,2036.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was not at the Kansas City thing. I did go to a young Democrat mention at one point, but, but you hired, you all hired me for Washington, with it in my with the presidential campaign in mind, exactly that, and back there, like January 74","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2037.0,2057.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: right? Is that when Susan came back. That was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2058.0,2060.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: later, because I then worked in the in the congressional office for a year before moving over to the campaign campaign. And I was the first one in the campaign office, and then it started filling up with you and Ed Carter, actually, Ed came later. I was there by myself with about four phones for a while. How did, how did Ella feel about all of this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2061.0,2086.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I have to tell you that Ellen, I had an artificial relationship. I don't think she ever liked your trust in me, and I never liked her trusted her. Her. So what you did is you had a a level of politeness camaraderie. I would I've been to their house many times, smoked dope with her and all that. But Ella had a very vindictive streak to her, and what I was most conscious of, as was repeatedly told to me by Terry and Dick Olson, particular is don't get on her bad side. So what I did is I just focused my attentions when she was around to stand on her good side she wanted some weird ass thing. Then I would make sure that it got taken care of. Those were the easy things. It was the hard things that caused me heartburn with Ella. So how she felt about it. Ella wore everything, I think she wore her political opinions like on her sleeve, and that meant that she would rag Moe and generally speaking, Ella's views about the campaign were reflected in the way she talked about the campaign tomorrow. Anybody else. On one level, Ella always said she didn't like it, didn't want it to happen. But on the other side, she loved being the candidate's wife and all the perks as she saw that came with it, you know, she came to expect things that there would always be a car for her if needed, there would always be this or that, you know, because she was the candidate's wife, and then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2087.0,2198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: She had an assistant. Yes, she had two.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2199.0,2201.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: She had D who became that, and then she had this other tall blonde who was worked in some of the congressional office, who was a friend of Moe's or something. Was it Frank Thompson? She worked for one of these machine Democrats in Baltimore, Maryland. I don't remember which one she was a big, tall drink of water.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2202.0,2226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I remember her, but I can't,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2227.0,2228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah, but those three, they were all blondes. They were all that peroxide blonde. And that was her entourage. She loved it. I mean, that was the part she liked and I just stayed out of her way, what I would get would be a phone call from her about some outrage. There was the time that she wanted to, wanted me to authorize spending a huge chunk of money for her to go shopping for clothes in New York on some weekend thing, because she needed them for her appearance at the convention. All these new clothes, which, by the way, included a she wanted a fur coat. This was in the these clothes, and all this were in the range of maybe upwards of $10,000","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2229.0,2280.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and what budget was this supposed to the campaign? That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2281.0,2283.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: why she was calling me and we had devised, well, I had devised, with and telling dick and Roger about it, in particular, that if, whenever she did, would call me about money, meaning she wants more of something which was not an which was not an unusual acquired. My immediate response, if I couldn't deal with it, would be to say, well, I'll have to check with our campaign treasurer. We had a campaign treasurer named Stanley Kurtz. Do you ever know Stanley?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2284.0,2319.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I remember a lot of stories about, okay, Stanley","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2320.0,2323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was a was Mo's army comrade in arms in World War Two. They shared the tent together and all that. And mo remembered him. He had gone on to be a lawyer and accountant, very successful Westchester County guy. And he prevailed upon him and asked him to to get involved in the campaign on the financial side. And Stanley did. He ran through all those millions his job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2324.0,2357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So what I would do is he was very protective of that Mo,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2358.0,2361.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's why I knew so I would tell Ella, well, I had to check with the campaign treasurer, meaning Stanley. And Ella generally knew that I'd call Stanley, and Stanley was, Are you crazy? It's illegal. You can't do this. You can't do that. Say, Okay, I go back and tell her and say, you know and I know that she wouldn't do it because Mo and he were so close, he would just say that so, but she would do shit like that, whether, I mean, there I've had, there were occasions when she wanted to go to a mo say was going to do an event in Palm Beach. So she would want to go and. Ring two or three of her friends, and had the campaign pick it up, and they were going to stay at some fancy dancing Villa or something. And if it wasn't on the campaign itinerary, which was being staffed by Ron Patton and his staff, I would refer him and I say, Well, gee, this is outside the campaign staff money. We'll have to check with Stanley. She grew up hate me standing and then and then, when the American Express financier had she just shut in the van that morning, I still remember it. Remind me of that. Well, we were running. We had been running Bo's campaign. Now you have to realize a campaign has cash flow requirements. Just like anything, our campaign had cash flow requirements that were day to day. And that is, we had a charter jet that had to have fuel and labor. We had hotels for staff, hotels for media, they would get reimbursed eventually, but by the cash flow, you had to have it up front. And there was a particular point in the campaign towards the end where Paul Tully, it started in New York. There was a big event in New York, where they had put a boat out near the Statue of Liberty or something, they had to rent a poke and all the pertinences and Paul got a hold of the of the credit card that had been jealously guarded by Ron to pay the cash using an American Express card for all of the stuff. Well, once, once that card was in use, physically in use by Tully and and whoever else, they started charging daily operation operating costs of the campaign to this American Express card","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2362.0,2523.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: without people realizing it. They knew.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2524.0,2527.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: But you see, you know these campaign groupies, they're single minded. We're going to win. This is somebody else's problem. If we're not worrying about the bill, we're worrying about electric Mojito, as they saw it. But these were not thieves. They were we would have had the money wired up from our you know, and a lot of it was through a bank note that was predicated on our campaign finance law, where you got money for, you know, you got reimbursements for from the campaign finance law, matching, matching funds, all that, but it was all a delicate, delicate, but a complicated set of transactions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2528.0,2571.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: But the problem was, they were spending money using this credit card that you weren't keeping track of because you didn't know about it, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2572.0,2577.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's right, and that and money was still coming in, and could have paid for it. But of course, left hand, right hand, if we're I'm in Washington, managing a lot of the operational stuff, the money, a lot of this stuff, and so I'd had no idea that sitting up there in Weehawken, New Jersey, they were spending $10,000 for a rally that nobody had sent me a voucher requirement for or anything, and then later on, you find out the reason they didn't is they were using the American Express card. So there we are,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2578.0,2610.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and one morning it was a Sunday morning, there's a knock on the door at Moe's house, and the campaign Mo is home that weekend, two guys in business suits are there. I was there, Mo is there, and they introduced themselves as lawyers for American Express.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2611.0,2633.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And that did he that his balance was being called, that they had to come up with the money, and it was like hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and Ella, she gets this American Express Bill for, I forget, let's say $200,000 and she about went into a shit fit. I get this call. I went home, I get this call, and she's screaming at me. I don't, I didn't know about it, because, again, it's just close circle up there with the guys that were doing it. So what we had to do is we had to go and he pulled in Stewart as his lawyer, and and had another lawyer in there. I think Tim may might have been brought in. So they negotiated with the American Express people not not to cancel the thing. And they they gave him a bunch. We gave maybe half of it right then, and said that we showed him the cash flow where the money would come from, in terms of the matching funds and revenue. And so what they did is they didn't cancel this, but they didn't allow it to be. Used until we were clear. But it was that episode that was where elegist just went berserk. I remember,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2634.0,2707.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did did she did her demands for money or perks decrease after that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2708.0,2714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I think that that's I don't remember having any great requests from her at any time in the latter part of the campaign, she was traveling. She was on the traveling with Mo a lot. Dean would go with her, and they would get a hotel, they would do whatever they did, but I don't recall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289#t=2715.0,2717.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270289/transcript/78606/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/606/original/azu_ms396-014_side2_a.vtt?1744913613","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/606/original/azu_ms396-014_side2_a.vtt?1744913613"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 4 - azu_ms396-015_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2750.664,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/290/original/azu_ms396-015_side1_a.mp3?1744847802","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2750.664,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, what are the things that I want to back up to the congressional office for just a minute in 7319 73 through 76 there were a lot of congressional staff changes. One was you became Special Assistant, which is what Bob rebellious had been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=0.0,24.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Again, we made up titles as he went along. That's what I was going to say. What is a special assistant? Nothing. It meant. It meant that that I was if, if, I'm sure we sat around one day and maybe I had a card that said, staff director, postal subcommittee, and somebody said, Well, you know, you really need, we got all this lobbying and thing, maybe we should change your title, and maybe you should so we come up with a new title. Okay, same thing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=25.0,53.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: had Bob or Ellis left. Then could","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=54.0,56.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: have been Bob was in and out. That is we, he was on our payroll for sometimes he was there, and then he would he and Ellis, sometimes didn't hit it off, and she would go work for Frank Thompson or something. I don't really know, okay, I just know that Bob, Bob worked for Moe the most after I left. I think it was in the later 70s. I think he wasn't there when I worked there, that's right, I'm not sure he was there until later. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=57.0,85.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, the other was Terry Bracey took over as legislative assistant, and Dick Olson was gone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=86.0,96.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's when Ellen he went over to work for the speaker. Then speaker, Majority Leader, Jim Wright. What happened was he and Ella had a blow up. God knows what precipitated, because you never knew. And Dick, I guess, mowed, he came to understanding. And the chief writer speech writer for Jim Wright of Texas was a good friend of Bob of Dick's. I'm sure Mo was involved in it. So Dick went over as a chief speech writer for for Jim Wright. I guess now the speaker, I'm not sure, but he left. Then, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=97.0,141.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how did, how did the rest of the staff get along with Ella? Did they sort of walking on eggshells,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=142.0,147.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think generally that I don't know, the couple of the women I think got along with her Okay, as I say, I was really quite circumspect. I did not like to be around when she came into the office. I just wanted to stay out of the way. And there was a time when she was very intrusive with her. When the years went on, I think she got less interested in sticking her face in our face. And it may be that their own personal relationship was having problems and whatever you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=148.0,181.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, let's see what at the at the very outset of the campaign, there was you Terry Bracey and Stuart, basically, or was he even in it at the outset? How? I guess, I guess. What I'm getting at is, how did the campaign begin? How did it blossom from, you know, a sparkle in your eye to the campaign? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=182.0,216.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: operationally, Terry and I started the campaign,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=217.0,219.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and what was your role? And his role, again, strategy, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=220.0,223.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: strategizing both of us and Mo and and Dick and Roger to a lesser degree. And then Moe started bringing in certain members of Congress, gathering his office, people like Dave OBE and Lionel van der lean. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=224.0,243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you know, there were a group of them, Henry Royce. Henry","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=244.0,245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Royce, again, the core of the DSG democratic study group. And they would say they would talk tech. So the main thing was the announcement. How to announce it? How should mo say that he's running, contemplating running, whatever. And then the question was, what's, what is the organization of it? Stewart, at that point, he and Moe appointed. He Stuart was appointed. However, it happened as the campaign was IT manager or chairman? I forget the phrase. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=246.0,289.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: have seen both. I always thought of him as campaign chairman, but in the things that have been written since, he's referred to as campaign manager. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=290.0,299.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, the way it worked was that he, he was going to be Moe's advisor. And they, then they brought me in. I mean, they said issues advisor. Who knows Moe's brother, Bobby Kennedy, to John Kennedy. I mean, who the middle was in Stewart said, you know, but, but that he would be most chief advisor, counsel, and that he would look at the strategic run of the campaign, and I would be reporting to him. I would be the campaign manager.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=300.0,334.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: But you don't know how this came about, this conversation, how it happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=335.0,339.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know, sitting around drinking a beer. I have no idea. So I said, Fine. I didn't care. I wasn't going to tell Stuart. No, you can't. He didn't get in the way. Stuart's biggest contribution, no, I didn't say that. Stewart's biggest effort that I saw in the operation of the campaign was in his efforts to hire two people. One was a was his son. How do you know his son had just gotten Tom Udall, Scott. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=340.0,378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you know Scott. I know Tommy, but not Scott. I know of him, okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=379.0,382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Scott had just gotten Carter commute. Gave a commutation to all the draft resisters in Canada. As a result of Vietnam, they were all allowed to come back to United States, right? Okay. Well, Scott was one of those people did not know it, but Scott was a draft evader that would have been Stuart sun. When Stuart was Secretary of the Interior, he's up there in Canada. It was a huge secret. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=383.0,410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I did not know that at the time, and it's something I learned quite a bit later, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=411.0,415.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So anyway, he came to me and he said that Scott was at loose ends, and he would like me to find a place for him in the campaign to do something. So I said, Fine. We brought Scott, and I met him, and we and we put him into the direct an area the direct mail shop, because there was a guy there that ran it, that knew it, and we figured that if there were going to be either emotional or just behavioral issues, that it wouldn't fuck up too much. And then a little while later, Scott bastard comes to me and says that he'd like me to hire somebody else. And he has with him this truly anorexic young woman. I mean, she looked like, she looked like, like a emaciated. I mean, truly that haggard. She was Scott's girlfriend. Do you remember her name? No, but I got to remember her face, because","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=416.0,478.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I, you know, when you're describing her, I'm sort of flashing on something, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=479.0,483.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, so I, I made it like his assistant, or put her the same area. And that was a mistake, because later on, we found out that she was just kiting money and trying to just fucking things up. Royal. She was, she was a cuckoo head. I mean, an anorexia should have triggered that, but so anyway, those were his two most significant moves, as far as I was concerned. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=484.0,510.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he really didn't have much to do. Oh no. He would come to he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=511.0,514.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: loved to discuss. He would write memos to moe strategic members like this and that and this and that. The biggest issue that Stuart and I fought together on was in the midst of the campaign. The beginning of the campaign, we had written a i Terry Scott Stuart, the primary, Terry and I had written a campaign plan, state by state, and what it showed was that, based on our analysis, and we had other people looking at it, and Rick Stearns was into the play by then, we had known it from McGovern. He was helping us. Like the guy who does that Friday night, Kenneth Bodie, the one who does it now, the guy who did the Ohio primary for us does the Friday night show on McNeil Lehrer, Ian David Brooks, you know the round guy on NPR, on national television. I'll have to fill that one in, except in Brooks. You know, it's been around forever. He was a young staffer then. So he worked for, I think, Ohio. So these were a group of people, and we would go over 10. Tactics, electoral votes, turnouts. We were looking at all that stuff state by state, chronologically based on the schedule of the campaign, and we had concluded that all of our efforts should be in New Hampshire, because if we, if we pulled it off in New Hampshire, that meant you were going to be on the cover of Time and life going into the Massachusetts primary at that time. That was the schedule. And then you worked your way south. You didn't see you built in those days. You built to the to the June primary in California. You didn't just have it there, which it is now. And we that was, that was our entire campaign was premised that Iowa would be a place, but Iowa was not significant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=515.0,649.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, Iowa's that was the first year that Iowa caucuses were going to be held in advance of Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=650.0,654.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and we didn't New Hampshire. We had concluded that it was going to be a pimple on the back of something, but it wasn't. We weren't going to lose. It would not be ultimately transferred into a loss.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=655.0,666.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: If Moe didn't go there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=667.0,668.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that's right, because there was always enough candidates. Didn't matter if all those other guys were there, but if he didn't go, then there wasn't a race. And that was our plan. And then he, then Moe, somehow allowed, I can't remember this was right about the time I had to leave the campaign. But anyway, Stewart and I wrote a very specific memoranda arguing why he should not be going to Iowa. Mo, Ken Bode. Ken Bode was the guy who convinced Moe. He had been writing a few speeches for Moe. He along with the Boston mafia, John Martella and these other guys had argued that he should make a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=669.0,727.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: balls out effort in Iowa. Well, and Jack Quinn was, Jack","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=728.0,730.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had been brought over here. Jack had been staffed to a senator from Colorado.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=731.0,735.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now you had, because you had strongly been against going into Iowa and then you you had to leave the campaign? Yeah, I had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=736.0,741.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: a personal problem with my wife. I had to leave for about four months. I guess I came back right before the Wisconsin primary,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=742.0,749.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, but Jack Quinn came in. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=750.0,753.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Jack came over as a volunteer staffer, and in that mix of my departure, I think Stuart lost control of key personnel, and that's when people like Quinn stepped in, Ken Bodie stepped in,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=754.0,769.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: eventually, martila and Kylie, right? They","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=770.0,771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: stepped in because they weren't part of it at all prior to my being there. I look back on the great regret, because I think that my leading did leave a vacuum that Stuart was not able or chose not to, or whatever, but in any event, so they're there, convincing mo that he should reverse what we had been doing for a year and go balls out into Iowa, take money out of New Hampshire, and we reduced I was I was retold this almost daily, even though I wasn't working there, because Terry and Stuart were calling me up as though I were the manager, and saying, here's what's happening. Here's what Mo is. And I would then say, well, go tell him, you know, you tell him you're the XYZ. And I guess they did that. But I wasn't doing it because I was actually at that time, had been hired by Paul Newman to work with a guy named Jim flute to go after the energy companies, the Seven Sisters and all that stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=772.0,835.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So were you still in Washington? Yeah, yeah. I was still there. It must have been very difficult for you to leave the campaign when","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=836.0,841.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you was a purely person. I couldn't. I had no either that or my wife at the time. But anyway, they went. They did the wrong thing. We got our asses beat in Iowa anyway, only by then it was a high profile. You'd all in his bus troop through Iowa, you know, all this publicity that didn't do, where the shit? But what it did do is it took a week out of our New Hampshire schedule. Took out all that money we were TV and everything we had blanketed New England. Then we pulled out, and it gave you one loss, and it gave us and we lost it by zip. You know, he came in second in New Hampshire. And we could have won New Hampshire. We could have won it going away, which would have made a big difference. Well, he would have been, that would have been the first one. He would have gotten on the cover. There were, I was told later on by Terry, but another guy's name, he was the. Lead reporter for Time Magazine, and he said Time Magazine had written for the issue after New Hampshire, two covers, cover stories, one on Moe and one on Carter. And Carter got it, but that's how close it came. And Stuart to this day, when I was with you that night at the Udo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=842.0,921.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Udo Foundation research did that thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=922.0,924.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Stuart still says he comes up talking to people about our campaign. He's always talking about Mo's campaign. He said and Johnny and I were the only ones they'd listen to us what would be president. Because he still remembers how wrong they were and how right we were and how we were overturned through a cricket fate. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=925.0,950.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: up until then, the campaign had been, you know, run by, you know, loyalists, I mean people, yeah, who'd known Mo and were very loyal to them, and had worked with them for a long time and then, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=951.0,962.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we were very careful. I thought I was very careful in hiring as we built our staff. I mean, I thought I hired really, really good guys and who were loyal, who didn't flit around. I mean, you know, guys like Coyle. Coyle was loyal to motor the day he died. Ron Patton, Ron Patton,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=963.0,984.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: John Tully, Paul. Tully","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=985.0,986.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and Paul died the middle his first winning campaign when Clinton was elected President.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=987.0,994.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's right, he'd lost all until then, see he couldn't handle it. He was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=995.0,998.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: political director of the GNC. He won it, and then he dies of a heart attack. But anyway, so they're really good people that were developed, and they all felt that these, you know, the pros, the smart alecks, whatever they called them, had come in and thought things up for a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=999.0,1021.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: while. Where did Jack Quinn come","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1022.0,1023.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: from? Well, there are two. There are two. Jack was a lawyer, young lawyer, graduate of law school somewhere. I don't know, but he was working for Haskell Senator Haskell of Colorado, who was a Democratic senator from Colorado. I could still remember he and a guy named Matthews. Jessica's husband Matthews, they were buddies in the senate staff, because maybe they went to school together, I don't know, but literally, one day, the two of them came together to where Terry and I were, and introduced themselves and said they really wanted to volunteer to help Mo. You know, just as volunteers, that was the first time I met Jack and Colin for that matter. So, you know, we're looking for volunteers. And you know, we had a routine about start with x, y, and we got to know them and and Jack was very interested, active, involved. Offered to be an advancement all the standard things you do, you know, if you're a staffer trying to get into it, we didn't say no. You never say no at that stage. So they became part of the of the team. As staff were volunteers from another office, but they would show up to meetings. They would be, I shouldn't even say they, he would, and Colin to a lesser extent, and it sort of just evolved that way. Especially, I think the advance work got him into airplanes and so, you know, people got to think of him as a staff person. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1024.0,1134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when you left, he sort of came into the void, at least. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1135.0,1138.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: ostensibly, Stuart was the campaign chairman. That's how it was articulated. But then I guess it started disintegrating, because I think there were two or three. Stewart called himself the campaign manager at that point, somebody appointed jack, and I think they thought of Jack as the guy who can do the nuts and bolts that I might have been doing with our staff logistics. But in fact, Jack wanted to be a policy guy. I have a memo. I've read the memos that Jack was writing, and they were like Terry Bracy memos. So he saw himself in a different light and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1139.0,1181.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and you recall how well you weren't with the campaign at the time. I was talking","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1182.0,1186.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to him every day, Terry and Stewart, okay, that's the only way I stayed in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1187.0,1190.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: touch. And how did, how did martila and and Kyle then get into it? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1191.0,1196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think there were hired guns. Mm, hmm. I think that Bodhi were, they were all friends from other campaigns. Did Stuart hire them? Well, ostensibly, Stewart hired everybody. But the way things worked with Mo is somebody would give him a recommendation. Mo did not like. He didn't like he was not going to interview anybody here. So I'm sure he said, somebody said, you know, John Martel and Tom Kiley are available. We think they would work perfectly in Iowa. They can do the radio, you know, blah, blah, whatever, you know, stick that they pulled, and he was, he would write back, and you know, how he did, okay. Mku, that's typically a way he would do it. So they would then carry that off and say, Mo said we should go ahead and do this. Sometimes I know that in one case, it was, it was a situation that was later told to me that Terry didn't even know about it, because they would just be able to get him, Mo to do it that way, and you couldn't, and I felt the same way. So they would go around like they were in charge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1197.0,1267.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So, so was it a matter of them taking over?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1268.0,1271.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It was a matter that Stuart, Stuart, in the for instance, if I was there, nobody had any authorization to spend any money if I didn't have my fingerprint on nobody. And that's where it was for our campaign expenditures for the states. It was everything, as you know, I mean, I was the one they screamed at because they couldn't get their money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1272.0,1299.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And is sort of taking that same position. If he had said when I left, all right, I will now be the John gabusi and all money has to be approved by me. I mean all money. But that didn't happen, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1300.0,1317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Stan kurz wasn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1318.0,1319.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: playing that we're talking about operating, okay? You're talking about New York just making sure that the Federal Elections Committee see has happened, okay, and the matching funds are processed correctly. You know, all these forms. He was not, he was not running daily operation. We had a budget for that, theoretically. But, I mean, we know how much we wanted to spend in New Hampshire, and we were budgeting it and we added it with the office. You know, we had all that down. But I guess when Stewart, when Stewart did not enforce those kinds of things, the individuals who had an agenda, the guys who wanted to do advertising in Iowa, the guys who wanted to hire the busses for a publicity bus, you know, they would just do it, or they would present a package to Mo. I saw a couple of those memos where we wouldn't need to want to do this in Iowa. Maybe it was Iowa because they had made a decision that I would ever going to win. So they were blistering him with memorandums of why they could win and how they needed the money to do it. And I've seen the memos where they're doing this and say, Now we do this bus to her cost is $18,000 and this is what we get, and the press Play will get and all that. And then down below it, you see, OK, mku, and they saw that as their voucher to spend $18,000","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1320.0,1418.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so was MO Not aware? I mean, I would think that mo would be used to communicating with either you or Terry or or Stuart.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1419.0,1432.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, we had actually worked out a pretty good deal on that issue when I was there in that Terry and I and Stewart, Stewart and I had a very trusting relationship, and that I was I told Stuart that if I thought there was an expenditure that needed to be made, I would make a judgment, and if I thought it needed his concurrence, he could trust me that that would be the case. So I mean, I did. I might buy $20,000 worth of bumper stickers, but I wasn't buying $20,000 worth of new advertising in New Hampshire. It's that level of the same with Terry. So Moe wouldn't necessarily ask Terry about an expenditure. I would be I would talk to moe, because that's what I did. I would talk to that. You know, here's what I would give. Mo a daily I would give Stuart and Mo a daily recap of all our revenue expended. Exp. Anticipated expenses, what our what our net would be at the end of every every week, because Stuart Moe had a thing that he didn't want Ella to have any sense that we were going in debt. He wanted to see basically a zero sum budget every week, so I could do that. I mean, it wasn't that hard. You fudge a little bit. It wasn't, it wasn't 50% off or anything like that. But the point is, he and I had that relationship. So I suspect that when I left nobody, he didn't. Nobody came to him and said, Here's and the one that came to him where, right? The ones wanted to spend money in Iowa and stuff. That's what, I think, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1433.0,1545.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: no, that's, that's what it sounds like, that they, there was a void there, and they, they moved into it. And mo didn't know the difference, necessarily, right? And and there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1546.0,1560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well and to his credit, he was campaigning Right, right","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1561.0,1567.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when, when you got back into the campaign. Then martila and Kylie were,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1568.0,1574.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: they were back in Boston. I don't know that they were involved in the campaign in Wisconsin at all. I don't recall it that way. I got to, I got back into the campaign two days before the Wisconsin primary in Wisconsin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1575.0,1589.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And did you come back in the same position that you'd been in basically? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1590.0,1593.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think that maybe, no, I was there. I was asked to come back. And I guess, I guess Stuart and Terry had talked to Mo and he's told him to see if,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1594.0,1611.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I guess he told him, I guess he told him, I don't know that for a fact, see if I was able to get back or not. And I worked it out. So I showed up two days before the Wisconsin primary, and I was with the night of the primary when we thought we had won.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1612.0,1629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What was that like?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1630.0,1632.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm sitting I'm sitting in the suite. It's Ellen, Moe and me, Terry, Stan, KERS, I think was there eight or nine. There were a couple of reporters that he had let in. One was the woman. Reporter is Elizabeth Drew, remember her, and I remember sitting next to on the couch and talking about this situation, because she was in the great lover of most the early returns. We really thought he had won. She was already beginning to talk about an article that she would be writing on his resurrection, or whatever. And then, of course, it changed. That","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1633.0,1680.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: must have been incredibly hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1681.0,1681.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It really was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1682.0,1683.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: really was, how did Moe take it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1684.0,1688.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Moe took it as Moe does stoically. He was pissed a little, you know, and then he mo would talk a little bit about the things he might have done in western Wisconsin. A lot of Mo's vitriol was always directed at these other candidates,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1689.0,1710.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: because he knew if he was one on one with Carter, he would beat him. But Carter beat him Wisconsin, in the West, in the rural areas, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1711.0,1718.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he was still having to fight people Like birch by that whole gaggle of left wingers, as he saw it. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1719.0,1726.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I've seen, I've seen or read reports that if even one of them have dropped out, anyone,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1727.0,1732.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: anyone in any number of races. I mean, he came in second in Massachusetts. Carter came in fifth, having just won New Hampshire because Scoop Jackson won in Massachusetts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1733.0,1751.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And by then, people like Fred Harris didn't have a chance. None of them","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1752.0,1755.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did, but they were egotistically. Their egos cannot allow them, I don't know what through their heads. Sergeant Shriver, you know? So Frank Church, yeah, so here you had Moe being a consistent second and a variety of others taking enough bite out of him so that Carter either didn't run anywhere or ran first. I mean, who would have said that a guy wins the New Hampshire primary one week and the next week in the adjacent state, even more liberal than New Hampshire runs fifth. That's what Carter did. And he still was viable. Now if, if we had beat Carter in New Hampshire, we would have beat his ass in Massachusetts, right? You see, that was the whole strategy. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1756.0,1810.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: does sound like the decision to go into Iowa made a huge, huge miscalculation. That effect must have affected. How did, how did Ella take it? After Wisconsin,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1811.0,1827.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Ella would be sarcastic. I can remember her saying, We're sitting the whole thing, making some sarcastic comment. Well, maybe mo quit now, or something like that. She was not a great she was not a great person. And she really was. She was a very vindictive. I never much cared for it, and I did not think she was loyal to moe, in a political sense, to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1828.0,1855.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: his ambitions or his, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1856.0,1857.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: she was a city. And I don't think she pumped him up when he needed to be pumped up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1858.0,1870.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: At what point in the campaign did you start, or you or others start to notice Parkinson's or the effects of the Parkinson's disease?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1871.0,1879.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I have to tell you, I don't have any memory of it. I was told later that remember when Moe would bend Lewis, but I never did. Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1880.0,1891.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I wonder if the first signs weren't maybe when you were gone on the campaign. The only thing I recall is a time when the schedule had to be cut back when the word just kind of came down to all of us. Of, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1892.0,1904.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: mean, the presidential campaign, yeah, yeah. Of just me. I never more, never was presented to me as a medical issue. I guess first I knew about it formally was when he broke his arms","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1905.0,1920.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: after the campaign, when he fell off the roof,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1921.0,1922.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: exactly in the diagnosis. There was breaks, there was a report. I don't where I got it. Maybe Stuart told me of some early indication of the Parkinson's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1923.0,1935.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I don't think he was actually diagnosed until after the campaign? Well, that would have been after the campaign, right, right? And I, and I do recall Ella coming up to me at one point after the campaign, when I was at some event at their house, and saying that everybody was worried about Mo. People were asking them if he had cancer because he was just moving slower, and everybody was worried, but she couldn't get him to go to a doctor other than a chiropractor. So I know there wasn't a real diagnosis till after the campaign. So you never saw any effects in the way he acted, or the way he campaigned, or anything. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1936.0,1974.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: when at the end of the campaign, did you leave the office right away? So did you stay with the congressional office for a while?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1975.0,1991.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah, well, I stayed at the office. Carter was elected. See what happened was, I went back same position we were we were talking about the next Congress. I mean, we were, there was no sense of, oh, I'm leaving, or anything like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=1992.0,2009.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you run the the did you and Terry do the 76 congressional? Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2010.0,2013.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, actually, by then, I think we actually maybe had a couple of people out there doing it, because we were on the other but we ran it. We were there, and we were there election night and all that stuff. We also were had been asked by same as we had done from McGovern, and because our involvement in the presidential campaign, we were asked to do a lot of surrogate stuff as staffers for the Carter campaign. So I did some. Terry did more, because his was much more media related. He would do press appearances in Carter's behalf, and primarily in the eastern part of the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2014.0,2056.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And what did you do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2057.0,2058.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mainly spent time with the campaign staff in Washington. Jody Powell, besides the press guy, had organized, along with the guy from New Mexico, whose name I could ever remember, their operation and I would, they would ask me to call into half a dozen states and do certain tasks, money, say we needed money, or do whatever was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2059.0,2085.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it. Was it hard for either you or Terry to move over to the Carter campaign?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2086.0,2090.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, no, it was. We were doing him a favor. We never thought we were involved. We'd we'd. Had our ass beat by him. And, you know, we didn't think I wasn't doing this because I was going to go do something else. It was more of a it's sort of like being in the military. These are guys you knew on the staff. I knew I had gotten to know Hamilton Jordan real well, and I got to know Jody. I a slack so it's not a wasn't that big a deal to us. It was just doing a favor, but we were doing our other work in the campaign in Tucson and range of things. So he gets elected, and we're there in Washington, and the the new people start coming to town. Terry and I are still on our jobs. Brock Adams, who was a member of Congress, part of the most inner circle good friend, was selected to be Secretary of Transportation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2091.0,2159.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Terry had done ghost writing for Brock in other settings over the years, and then Brock asked him to come to work before him at the transportation department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2160.0,2172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So Terry said yes to be his assistant secretary for lobby, which is what his career turned out to be Assistant","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2173.0,2181.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Secretary for what do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2182.0,2185.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: they call it, government affairs? Oh, okay, okay. And Brock had brought Terry and another guy from his staff and stuff. So anyway, the point is, it's announced. Terry's announced that he's going to go to work, leave the office, have a ghetto going away. He goes. In the meantime, a good friend of Moe's and mine was appointed by Carter to run the old OEO. OEO, let's see you're too young, the war on poverty. Oh, okay, it's a big agency of poor community action agencies, all that stuff. So her name was Grace, and she was from Phoenix and New Mexico. So she's back here looking she was appointed","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2186.0,2245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: the cabinet level job for that, and she came to visit Moe. Didn't know I was there, introduced, so she asked Moe if","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2246.0,2260.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he offered, in fact, that if you needed help, that John can help you on your organizational issues as you go to take over this agency. She said, fine. So they called and they said, would you come down and look at our these are all Republicans. Look at our staff and how we remove them and get the Democrats in there. They were concerned about clearing house. This is all in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2261.0,2291.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: right around Christmas time or January, somewhere in there anyway. At some point, Grace asked Mo, would he object if I came down and worked for her?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2292.0,2308.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Mo is not happy. And you know, he never says no, but, but he said, you know, to Terry gone, John was going to blah, blah, blah. I found out later, I didn't know this at the time, that she then came to me directly and asked me if I was interested in the job. And the truth was, I was interested in almost any job after the campaign. If it was interesting, I wasn't planning to leave, but, you know, make me an offer, and we see, because there was a letdown and psychological, emotional let down in the office, generally, with Terry leaving, in a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2309.0,2355.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: way, I'm surprised that Terry left. I mean, he was, he was so loyal. Or I wonder if, I wonder if it surprised Moe that he left.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2356.0,2365.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, they left on good terms. So I don't know that it was, whatever it was. Maybe it was because it was Brock Adams, who was one of his best congressional friends. I don't know. I do know that I did not live on good terms, but So Grace asked me if I was interested, and I said, Yeah, I'm interested. I'd also gotten an offer of a job at the White House because of the work I'd done with Hamilton Jordan and Jody Powell. They asked me if I wanted a job. Was working in some staff position in the White House that would grow into something, but they thought I would be a good fit, and I turned them down. Why? I think it was probably visceral, and I didn't know that I wanted to go work for Jimmy Carter's. I don't know I was at the time. I don't know I just was going to stay with Mo. The other hadn't even popped up yet. But then this other thing came along, and it was a different offer, because I would be going to be running, I'd be the number two person in an operation of four or 5000 people in Washington. It was a big bureaucratic organization. Had a lot of money things I'd never done that kind of work in my life, and I would be in a position of authority, not a Schedule C, work your way up somewhere. It was an executive presidential appointment level four. So you got to go to the Senate for Congress. Confirmation and all of those.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2366.0,2463.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What department was this under? It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2464.0,2467.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was the it was called the Community Services Administration, okay. So anyway, so I said, Yeah, I'm interested.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2468.0,2476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So I forget how she handled it, but basically we both went and told mo that I had decided I wanted to go work for her,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2477.0,2491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and he was not happy. He told me later that he said he really with Terry going had relied on my stay, and Ella was especially put out by it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2492.0,2506.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did they think you were abandoning ship? Yeah, yeah, something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2507.0,2508.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: like that. And that I was going somewhere else when I should have stayed with him, or, I don't know what, but I left unceremoniously on a given day, no goodbyes, no nothing, just yeah. That must have been hard. It was. But later on, they all the staff we, all were, you know, got together, but she was adamant that that I was not to be congratulated on my on my change. But it was hell. It wasn't. It wasn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2509.0,2546.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: who else was on that was Roger Lewis still there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2547.0,2550.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, Roger was either had just gone. It was just going and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2551.0,2553.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Dick Olson was gone, and Carrie was gone, and you left. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2554.0,2557.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the that's when everything changed because the only people left where the was prior prey of the district office in Tucson,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2558.0,2570.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and Lorraine Rogers, right. And Lorraine, yeah, that must have been a huge change for him. Yeah. There was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2571.0,2576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: nobody there from well, I look back on that with I understand, really what he was saying. I had not really, I did not realize to later that I was the institutional memory of the Washington office. It was my leaving. There was none,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2577.0,2591.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah, I mean, with all the others gone, so he, what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2592.0,2594.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: happened was that he mostly turned to the interior committee, yet Stanley Scoville, then being elevated. He had Stanley's friends who would get hired, the people from the Technology Office, all that group of friends of Stan that he had recruited over the years, and they did that work that mo needed, and all that interior stuff as he ascended to the chairmanship. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2595.0,2624.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: he basically just turned his attention there. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2625.0,2629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it really was sort of a change in the guard, because there was never any more efforts of any sort of national other than the garnering of awards. You know, he was just a congressman, chaired a powerful environmental","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2630.0,2644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I understand that in 1985 the subject came up again about,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2645.0,2647.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, I wasn't there, but I'm quite sure that some of those people he had Parkinson's by then. Yeah, no, it was. I saw mo after I left. It took a couple years before we were on conversational terms.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2648.0,2668.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How did you like your new job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2669.0,2670.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, it's a good job. It was fun. Everything was different. So I ended up, you know, I ended up testifying before Congress instead of being the questioner, what did you testify? Well, I managed the budget city of the agency, three or $4 billion budget, so I was the representative of the agency on the budget and things like that. So it was very bureaucratic,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2671.0,2694.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: but it was very interesting, but it was primarily budget. You. Yeah, it was an","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2695.0,2699.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: administrative budget. I was the Assistant Director for Management and Budget.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2700.0,2703.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How long were you there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2704.0,2706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, that's that's the executive part of my life. About a year into that job, I was contacted by friends of mine at the White House who said that the President was going to push through the reorganization of the old office of education, and make it a cabinet department. Make it the Department of Education that was going to be one of his priorities, and that they wanted me and another guy named Dick Beatty, who was a lawyer from New York, who was, at the time, General Counsel to Joe Califano at that time was Secretary of H, E, W, they wanted him and me to spearhead a.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290#t=2707.0,2709.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270290/transcript/78607/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/607/original/azu_ms396-015_side1_a.vtt?1744913651","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/607/original/azu_ms396-015_side1_a.vtt?1744913651"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 4 - azu_ms396-015_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":1623.984,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/291/original/azu_ms396-015_side2_a.mp3?1744847804","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1623.984,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, go ahead. So this call from the White House where they asked me to head up the task force that was the ultimate goal of which was to, on a given day, announce the inauguration of the new cabinet Department of Education, so that I took leave from the job I was in. I mean, I'm still getting paid, but, I mean, they, they, I was put in charge of this, and I spent a good part of the ensuing year working with Dick Beatty, who became a very good friend of mine. He's now one of these Wall Street lawyers. He's in one of these books about Wall Street guys that make home what kinds of money? So he's listed as their lawyer. Really nice guy. Anyway, we put this department together, recruited the staff. We did merging. There's a lot of stuff. It's all bureaucracy, but it's, you know, it's, how do you get your payroll? If you're one day your agency x, and the next day your department y, doing the same work, but you got to have all the paper and other procedures of what you need to do. But anyway, so I did that, and as a result of that, in the in the midst of that day, they said they wanted to make me an Assistant Secretary for Management and Budget of the soon to be creative department of education. So when they did the announcements of the new department, they said the new officers of the department will have to go to the Senate for confirmation. So I went back up and was reconfirmed in a different position as Assistant Secretary for Management and Budget of the Department of Education, having just spent the previous year putting it together. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=0.0,115.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: when you were putting it together, was that like a paid job or something you were doing? Well, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=116.0,119.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was I was technically doing my other job. I was okay. I was in the government. They have a phrase for it, like being on loan, or, yeah, something. I don't know what it is, but anyway, so then the department is created, and I go over to the Department of Education in that position, is that you okay? And I go over there until Reagan kicks us out. I was assistant secretary there in that department. And how's that? That was the same kind of job. It was, it was fine, except it was a new job, and it was, I was always involved in some because it's like building a Rube Goldberg machine. There's always lots of little mistakes that you got to fix. And since I and Dick were the makers of it, we also had to be the fixers of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=120.0,172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it. So you were, you were basically the, the the original builders of the new Department of, that's education. Yeah, that's quite an experience. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=173.0,184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it was never done that I run a campaign, but I never built your own department, and it was very interesting. Life changes things. The guy who recruited me for that job was a young, ambitious Democrat from Virginia who was working in the office, the government personnel office for political people. Name is Decker anstrom, and he was, he was a great help, good friend, political guy, all that Decker is today, the CEO and President of the Weather Channel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=185.0,224.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, you're kidding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=225.0,228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And a lot of guys, a lot of people in those years that I met are scattered all over the place. It's amazing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=229.0,235.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, even just in Mo's campaign, looking at where some people are, oh yeah, how they well","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=236.0,241.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: look at old Jack. Jack Quinn, oh yeah, he envisioned himself right into it. You know, he did very well. But anyway, so,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=242.0,251.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and then, and then, when Reagan came in, what did you at one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=252.0,255.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: o'clock on january 20, whatever, they kicked me out. So I left,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=256.0,262.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and did you stay in DC","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=263.0,265.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: for a short while? But actually, I went to Minnesota, where I went to work for controlled I had, at the at the end of the election, we had been given cards to use our remaining four months to go find a job all the executive level, and there were contacts and things. They were recommended to us. One of my good friends at the time was a guy named Jim Johnson who worked for Mondale. Jim went on to be head of Fannie Mae. I think. Or one of those Fanny granny Mays, whatever. And he suggested that I that I get contact with Control Data Corporation in Minneapolis, which at the time was a high flying fortune 500 company and was considered a very good company to work for. And they put me. They they recruited me into it to see if I was interested. And I was. It was an international marketing job for some of their subsidiaries, so they hired me, and I went, lived in Minneapolis and and and did work for primarily, we worked in the office of the chairman of the board on new ventures. That's why we went into places that were interesting, like Alaska and the Caribbean, and places where they thought there might be computer technologies that might be of benefit in areas that didn't have them yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=266.0,363.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did you get to go, go on the trips? Oh yeah, I was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=364.0,367.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: one of the marketing guys the team. So you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=368.0,371.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: changed from budget,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=372.0,373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, totally, to straight marketing, straight marketing and international flavor to it and stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=374.0,381.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did you ever have any regrets of leaving Moe's office during that time? Mo's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=382.0,385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: office? No, not Moe's office. There were times I regretted leaving Washington, but that was about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=386.0,393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How long were you in Minnesota?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=394.0,396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Less than three years. Two and a half years. What happened was, is I just, I did very well financially. It's a marketing company, so if you do well, but I got into, I got into an argument with my boss on whether I was being adequately compensated on bonus systems. I thought I wasn't, and he thought I was so I had, in the meantime, negotiated a return to Washington with a similarly situated company,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=397.0,429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: one of the consulting firms in DC, and so I walked in one day and announced I was quitting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=430.0,436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, of course, that they shot him a brick because I was, I was one of their leading marketing guys. I was a rainmaker. I brought in business. So they, they were now faced to the fact that I was just up and quitting on him. And I told him, why? So? And I said, I already had another job, and now, you know, etc, etc. So what they did is they hired me on an ancillary contract to continue doing work for control data while I was working for the other company in Washington. So they ended up having to pay me a couple $100,000 so that they didn't lose the business that I was in the midst of bringing in for them. Wow, that worked out fine for you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=437.0,487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: They probably regretted their former decision. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=488.0,489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he made his mistake when he didn't pay me what he owed him. That's mistake exactly, because I wouldn't have gone otherwise. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=490.0,497.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you were back in DC. Yeah, I moved back to DC. Now, during this period of time, did you and Terry stay in contact? Yeah, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=498.0,506.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah. He had got he had left the he left the same time I did from the government. And he had a partner named Hector alcohol. They opened a firm in over in Arlington transportation lobby. I think Terry's first clients were like city of Tucson, Tucson airport authority. And so he built Hector, and he I knew Hector from Florida. He also worked in the Department of Transportation. He and Terry broke up their company, and I think Terry hooked up with Susan Williams, who else would also work for him in the Department of Transportation? He had hired her, I think, as an aide or something, and they then formed their company that existed until very recently.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=507.0,555.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So, so you, you've stayed in contact? Oh, sure, pretty much, yeah, okay, but you really didn't have much contact with Mo, no,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=556.0,564.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: after Terry's an anomaly to everybody that he stayed in touch with Moe for so long, so closely. I mean, I mean with others, meaning others who worked with Moe, nobody else that I know of maintain that kind of a relationship, and I didn't, because the first few years after I left, it was a mutually understood, don't see me, I won't see you. And then I think we hooked up someone. Or maybe in Arizona. I don't even know where Bruce","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=565.0,601.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Wright, I think continued to see him. I think Bruce Wright did. I think he continued to see","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=602.0,606.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that was a whole nother generation, right? Oh, I know what happened after 7077 78","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=607.0,615.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm always having people come up and say, You know I work for mower. I know somebody worked for Mo. You must know them and have no idea,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=616.0,623.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: right? Because that was a whole different generation, the vision. I loved it when that woman ran for Congress. Mary Jo was that her name, the one here in Tucson that ran against Colby, a lawyer worked in the county attorney, Oh, Mary judge Ryan. And she had one of her brochures about Yes, worked for Mo Udall presidential campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=624.0,647.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, she she had that. She had been a staff member for Mo Udall and I, and I know Mary judge Ryan, I didn't I never asked. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=648.0,656.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was told by Terry. I think Terry told me, is today she had been a one of these law school interns. That's right, that was her job, just like when we hired Stanley Scoville or David Nix or Dave Nix, we, you know, and she got it. She got the internship, and it either coincided with or was close to the campaign period, and she, over the years, translated that to staffer for the congressman. Well, you and I both know what those interns were, and I mean, they were interns.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=657.0,693.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, I noticed that. I noticed that also,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=694.0,695.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and people do that generations later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=696.0,700.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. So, so you went back to Washington and and basically you were doing the same thing that you've been doing in Minnesota, well","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=701.0,712.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: more or less different clients, but basically working with them on development projects, that sort of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=713.0,722.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And how did you eventually get back to Arizona?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=723.0,728.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I was doing this until I was in this business. I just, I was doing International, a lot of international work, and an episode occurred in Montenegro, where I was basically hijacked by some criminals. True story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=729.0,745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, you have to tell me about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=746.0,749.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I was, I was doing work in Eastern Europe. I was on a plane from from Warsaw to Belgrade. Belgrade was Belgrade Yugoslavia. Before it was Yugoslavia, yeah, yeah, it was Belgrade Yugoslavia, right? So I was from Warsaw to Belgrade, and the plane, it was a jet plane and lot commercial airline weather was diverted to a small airport in Montenegro, which is a province of then Yugoslavia. Montenegro, now I think is a republic. It is, I believe so. Anyway, we land there to wait out the storm, and some criminals and cars and jeeps drive up to the airplane, very small airport, in order everybody to get out of the airplane. And they I was the only English speaking. There was one. Everybody was Turkish. There was one English speaking. That's me. There was another. He was a Greek who was multilingual. Then the rest were Turks. Don't know why they're all Turks, but they were, this wasn't during the war over there was it. It was at the beginning of the war. The war hadn't started, but it was right at the beginning of the breakup of the of the Yugoslav Republic. The others had settled down. I was doing work in Poland, Czechoslovakia, where the revolutions already were in place now, but this was just starting in the Balkans and they separated south. They took all the goods, our suitcases. They took everything except my passport, my wallet and the money, some money, other money they took. They told us to sit there. I guess they stripped everybody. I was isolated. I was in a little cement area by myself. Not only what the fuck was going on, these are guys talking and served or whatever the hell they talk, not English. We were there for six or seven hours. Then all of a sudden they said the captain, the plane guy, or three of them, were told to turn on the airplane and get the hell out. Town. So they told us, get on the plane. They no goods, no nothing, just, just us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=750.0,906.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So all the passengers got back on, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=907.0,909.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I guess they were all, they've been stripped of everything, of anything, of value. And we plane took off, and they got to Belgrade. I got out. I had a credit card. I was in a company. I went across the place where you buy tickets. I bought a one way ticket, Pan American to New York, and said, I've never gone back to this fucking part of the world. And I never did. I got back to New York with nothing but the credit the credit card and the ticket I went to Washington, where our offices were. I told my partners I was I was done with international travel, and I started thinking about a job somewhere else. And my I'd been visiting Arizona. My mother was here and and I had done a bit of work for for the Chancellor of the Maricopa system, a guy named Paul Elsner, not as Maricopa. He had, he was a writer, and he had other projects. And I don't know how he and I hooked up somewhere, and he wanted me to do some work for him. But anyway, I just started looking around, and one day in the Washington Post, there was an article that said that Pima College had hired a new chancellor who was the Chancellor of the Virginia system and lived in Richmond, Virginia. I didn't know the guy from Adam. I didn't know what Pima College was. I'd never been there in my life. No, I didn't know nothing, but it was Tucson. It was an address, it was a local contact that I could reach out to. So I wrote a letter to this guy. Jeff Hocken days, was his name. He was the Chancellor of the entire system in Virginia. Said who I was, what I did, that I was looking for angles, if there are any opportunities in Tucson, Arizona. I thought my skills might match some of his needs as he took over the job. Well, lo and behold, he calls me up and I meet him in Washington the following week. We had never met each other in our lives before that, so we said and we talked for a couple of hours. He explained to me that he hadn't even gotten there yet, didn't have the job, but he I mean, he was, but he said, When I get there, I'll look around and I'll keep you in mind. And he said, Give me a phone number, how I can reach you if anything ever comes to pass. So I wrote down on a business card or whatever cocktail napkin. I wrote down Martha's address because I had no Tucson address. I lived in Washington. I was working in Washington, so I said, but I have a sister in Tucson. Here's your phone number, and if Anne comes up, call her, she'll then call me. So a year and a half later, so out of the blue, Martha calls him and says that she got a call from some Hawk above or something, that I was to call him about a job or about something. So I call him, sure enough, said, I remember you and I got two jobs that you might it might be of interest to you. I think you might fit it. If you're interested, let me know. And so we picked one, and he took care of it, offered me the job, and I said, Fine, and I moved from Washington to Pima College. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=910.0,1113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: year was that? 92 Okay, and what I noticed, you've had a few titles. There you start as a vice chancellor, yeah, and what was the first position?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1114.0,1126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He created a position, I think, for me. And it was economic development, it was, it was a smoothing position, you know, I was fundraising or no, we had a fundraiser. It was going to meetings. Meeting. He liked the idea that it was very political","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1127.0,1144.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: public relations to some extent. Yeah, politics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1145.0,1149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He liked it that I could like my uncle was the member of the Board of Supervisors, so I used him. This was Sam Lena, yeah, Sam was my uncle, and I used him and others that I knew to be introduced to the new chancellor of the college. There were projects I helped expedite. Projects. We need some sort of patch. Needs help somebody get a job, whatever that sort of stuff. Did you it was very easy at","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1150.0,1176.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: some point. Did you get a did you go back to school in education. No, okay, you never went back and got a PhD or, okay, okay, for some reason I had it in my mind that you had,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1177.0,1188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: oh, I have an honorary degree. Oh, you do. Oh, you have an honorary doctorate from University of San Francisco for for being a good politician in the Carter administration. I. Yeah, that's another one of the scams. When you're in the government at a high level, every administration does it somewhere in the course of the year, somebody will come to you and say, in this case, there's some senior staffer, would you be interested in getting an honorary degree? Literally, I said, Well, it depends. Says, Yeah, where is it? I was saying, a vacation? He said, San Francisco. I said, that sounds pretty good. And he said, Yeah, you can get a PhD. We can arrange for you to have a PhD or an honorary Doctor of Laws, even options, you know, is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1189.0,1239.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: this so that, so that they can then put Dr gabusi on the stationary, more or less, or, well, it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1240.0,1246.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: an honorary degree. They do it. The schools do it in the hopes that it'll help them get some sort of money, you know, grants, whatever. I did it because I thought I'd go to San Francisco","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1247.0,1262.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and get a vacation out of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1263.0,1264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: But they did a beautiful plaque. They did everything. It's four square, honorary Dr coousi. Oh, yeah. So when I got back, I never called myself doctor. And one day, Hockaday says he knew I had got the honor. He says, Well, aren't you going to change your I said, What? He says, Yeah, you're not Dr COVID. Said, I'm not a doctor. It's honorary. He says, in education, every degree counts honorary or not, especially said in education. So I said, fine. So actually, on my business card, some of them say Mr. And some say doctor. I don't know what. I don't really give a shit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1265.0,1307.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So how has your position changed there over the years?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1308.0,1310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, it morphed into more Lobby because we had a lobbyist when they hired me, and Hockaday fired him within a year. It was awful, one of his lazy cynicals That didn't want to do any work. So basically, with his departure, Jeff just said, you take it over. You handle it. So I did. So that's changed, because now I run the operation, we have lobbyists and all that yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1311.0,1342.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So it's, it's basically lobbying that Porter. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1343.0,1347.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then I took over the running of the foundation. So I have somebody who runs the foundation and reports to me we have so we have to raise that. She raises the money, and I'm her manager and stuff like that. So did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1348.0,1358.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you ever imagine you'd be this much into a university or educational setting? Like","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1359.0,1364.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I said, I didn't know what Pima College was there in my life, been here. I didn't know what it was when I got the job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1365.0,1371.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Sounds like a good match, though? Yeah, it's worked out real well. Been a good match. Well, I'm I am, unless you have some stories or memories that you'd like to add, I tend to end interviews just asking for what you might what you would envision as Mo's greatest strengths and weaknesses in having worked for him for so long and so closely, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1372.0,1400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I think his MO. I think the best way to think about Mo is to think of two people. The motto the world sees, that his colleagues saw, the public saw was exactly as he was. I mean, that's the private model was more like Abe Lincoln. I think it could be very, very quiet, very bitter, very pissed off at things. I never saw him raise his voice at any staff person like that, like I know, in private, he and I, and maybe Terry or Roger, he would, you know, let a few things go, but not about not about staff or anything. In some respects, it was oblivious to the things that other people thought were really important. In all the years I worked for Mo, all the years, he only on one occasion that I have a vivid memory of that he ever thanked me and complimented me on a good job. And Terry and I joked about it for years that he actually did it, because most of the time he didn't do anything for anybody. He probably just took it for granted that was your job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1401.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: He was kind of a hands off person, wasn't he? Oh, very much. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1481.0,1484.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah, well, I told you, I told you the story of one of my best stories about Ella is that he and Ella had been in some dispute privately for. In the office, and I can't remember what it had to do with it probably had some of his money, but I don't remember, but he had to go over to the floor, and he wanted me to come with him so he could talk about this on the way over. I remember this to my dying day, it was the Longworth office building,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1485.0,1525.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and we're walking along, and I told him something to the effect that that it sounded to me like the kind of dispute that he and Ella had to work out privately.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1526.0,1541.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And that it was not anything that he could end with the campaign. I guess there was nothing really that steward or I could could deal with Ella about. And we talked a little bit about that, and we got to the elevator. And as the elevator was opening. I said to him, I said, Well, how do you want to handle this? And he turned to me, and he said, that's your problem. And the door closed. That was his solution. Was at the end of the day to say, you go handle","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1542.0,1578.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it. So he was, he, I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1579.0,1581.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's hands off. That's hands off. He didn't want to deal with his wife on these issues. That's why Ella used to take out after me. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1582.0,1590.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so you're the fall guy. And you know, I had to say no a lot. So he would, my impression sometimes is, is that he had a shy quality about him, at least around women.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1591.0,1605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, he's very much so I used to joke about that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1606.0,1608.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: because he always seemed to seem to just be a little uncomfortable and couldn't quite be himself. If, if women were around, is this off the record? No, would you like it to be? Just turn out? Do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291#t=1609.0,1611.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146502/file/270291/transcript/78608/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/608/original/azu_ms396-015_side2_a.vtt?1744913691","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/608/original/azu_ms396-015_side2_a.vtt?1744913691"}]}]}]}