{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/ms3jw88j4f/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Manuel Lujan"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 2, tape 44"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Lujan, Manuel, Jr., 1928-2019 (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2000-05-11"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New Mexico--Albuquerque (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Manuel Lujan conducted by Julie Ferdon. Lujan was a former Congressman and Interior Secretary from New Mexico. Was on the Interior Committee with Morris Udall starting in 1969. Was on the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, and on the Subcomittee on Energy and the Environment, which was subchaired by Udall. In 1977, Udall was named chariman of the Interior and Insular Affairs committee, and Lujan became the ranking minority leader around the same time, and the two worked together often."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.021 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Manuel Lujan conducted by Julie Ferdon. Lujan was a former Congressman and Interior Secretary from New Mexico. Was on the Interior Committee with Morris Udall starting in 1969. Was on the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, and on the Subcomittee on Energy and the Environment, which was subchaired by Udall. In 1977, Udall was named chariman of the Interior and Insular Affairs committee, and Lujan became the ranking minority leader around the same time, and the two worked together often."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - azu_ms396-021_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2670.696,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/297/original/azu_ms396-021_side1_a.mp3?1744847820","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2670.696,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape number 44 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good afternoon. It's Thursday, May 11 year, 2000 and we're in the Albuquerque, New Mexico office of the Manuel Lujan agency on San Mateo Boulevard. My name is Julie ferdon, and I would like to welcome former congressman and interior secretary, Manuel Lujan, and to thank you sir for joining us today. Thank you, Julie. Let's start with some biographical information. Where and when were you born? Well, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2.0,29.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was born May the 12th, 1928 we had a little farm right next to the Santa Afonso Indian Reservation. And as a matter of fact, in the 30s, when the government was enlarging reservations and making land settlements, the little farm was condemned, and so we had to move move from there, and we moved to Los Alamos. But a few years later, the government decided to do the atomic bomb project, and they condemned land, and so we moved from there and moved down to Santa Fe that's where I grew up. And the reason I mentioned that because that has some relevance to some of the actions that we took in the Congress with a Hopi Navajo hope. Hopi Navajo dispute. That was kind of a, I don't know, kind of a philosophy, I guess that I that I had about the government coming in and telling you where you had to go, like in the Hopi Navajo partition area. So that really had a lot to do with my, with my thinking on that issue when we were considering that in Congress.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=30.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Interesting background, yeah, so you were raised in Santa Fe, raised in Santa Fe, graduate of Santa Fe High School, no","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=106.0,112.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: St Michael's High School, and in the College of Santa Fe, as a matter of fact, at that time, it was also called St Michael's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=113.0,119.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: College. When did you, that's right, when did you graduate from there, from the college 1950 and what was your major","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=120.0,126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: business administration? Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=127.0,130.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: what did you do after college? Well, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=131.0,132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: sold insurance for that was from about 1947 48 I somewhere in there, to when I moved down to Albuquerque in 1965 and was in the insurance business until 1968 when I ran for Congress. So for 20 years I was, I was in the insurance business.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=133.0,159.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, the Manuel Lujan agency was that started by your father.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=160.0,163.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, he started that in 1926 and I started working for him in 40 the 47 Well, I worked for him before then, when I used to collect bills and deliver policies since I was in the eighth grade. But then in 1965 I moved to Albuquerque and started this agency, Manuel, luja, Insurance Agency in Albuquerque.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=164.0,184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, when did you first get involved in politics?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=185.0,189.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, all my life. My dad was mayor of Santa Fe in 1942 thereabouts. My mother was county clerk. So you know, I was always involved in helping one way or another. On my 18th year, I was the precinct chairman in our little local precinct there, and been involved since then, since then, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=190.0,223.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1960 you were elected to Congress. How was it that you How did it come about that you ran for Congress to begin with,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=224.0,232.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: probably, as a loyal party member, because, you know, we wanted to win that seat. I was assistant state chairman at that time, and one night, the state chairman fellow called me and he said, we have a poll that says you can win. Well, I had just moved down two years before to start this insurance agency here in Albuquerque, and you know, I was not too thrilled to run, but the seed is planted. He said they had a poll that I could win, and I started analyzing past, past returns, and the more you study Absolutely. And so, you know, that's, that's how it all. I had never been to Washington. I had, I had no desire to to to go to Washington. But, you know, the state chairman suggested that I could win. And after you study it, and you determined that, well, maybe I can, and the state of New Mexico had not been represented by a. Republican for 42 years. And so I thought, hey, you know, it's an opportunity to to make history for for the state. And besides, I thought I could do it better than the guy that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=233.0,311.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was there weren't you effectively the first congressman from the first district?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=312.0,315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, because prior to that, two congressmen would run at large in the entire state, and the Supreme Court said that we had to break it up. So that was the first year in 1968 where we ran by district one and district two,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=316.0,332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and it was a Democratic district, largely, wasn't it? Oh yes, yeah. How did how did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=333.0,338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you win? This handsome fellow, articulate, no, yeah, no. Well, I was in the insurance but in the insurance business, so and that was my territory, really, when that's where I would go to sell. Secondly, I was president of the New Mexico Insurance Agents Association, and so you had a built in organization. The insurance man in each little town knows everybody you know, knows all their business and and everything. So that was a pretty good organization to have. And then, in addition to that, having gone to st Mike's, almost all of the mayors, county commissioners, the neighborhood store owners and all of those little towns in northern New Mexico were what they called St Mike's boys. They had gone to school there, and so that was, that was a pretty good organization also,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=339.0,400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: all right, we were talking about that your first campaign, yes, Congress, and you had a automatic sort of support group in the St Michael's thing. Did that that district included both Albuquerque and Santa Fe it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=401.0,414.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did, yes, everything, oh, practically everything north of Interstate 40, with the exception of two counties around along the Arizona border. But it was, you know, all the rest half the state","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=415.0,429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was, was ethnic support that had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=430.0,432.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: a lot to do with that. Yeah, that the Northern District was probably about 30, 35% Spanish speaking people, yeah, before","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=433.0,442.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: going to Washington, have you, had you ever heard of Morris or Stuart Udall?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=443.0,448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, but just you know, out there, right before going to Washington, I had, before running for office, I had never met a congressman. I knew who they who they were, our own. But as far as knowing them personally, I did. I did not, at that point, nor any other congressman for that. For that matter, I never really thought that I that I would ever go to you know, that was not part of my thoughts or part of my goal, or anything I thought, you know, my goal was to be the best insurance man I could, I could be, and that was it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=449.0,486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1966 two years before you arrived in Washington, MO, had authored a book, and authored a book entitled The job of the congressman, which was intended to help orient new members. Did you read it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=487.0,498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I did after I won the election. And I remember very, very distinctly I bought the book after I was elected. I had never been to Washington, understand. So I read the book, and one day in December, I remember closing the book when I finished, and I looked at my wife, and I said, Well, I've read it, the book on how to be a congressman, but, you know, I got to go to Washington before I take office, and see what, see what it's all about. And so I did one Sunday, I took a flight, went, went to Washington and started looking around, questioning, questioning people. I remember first place I walked into was the third floor of the Longworth Building. An office was open. Incidentally, my office ended up on the third floor of the Longworth Building, and the Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs was on the third floor, so but I do remember walking in, and the guy was was there. He worked for Chalmers Wiley, from Ohio. He was the administrative assistant. And I said, Well, now, what is that? And what does an administrative assistant do? Well, of course, he told me that that was the most important guy on the whole hill. And I remember taking my little book on which I kept notes, and I said, administrative assistant, need one. And that was my orientation to that's great to Washington organization. That","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=499.0,592.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was quite a move in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=593.0,593.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: one way it was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=594.0,596.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: do you recall when you did first meet Mo? I. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=597.0,600.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: probably, no, I do not recall it specifically, but probably when I walked into into committee, which would have been, you know, the fourth, fifth or sixth of January of 1969 right in there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=601.0,618.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what committee assignments Did you ask for? And what did you get?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=619.0,621.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I asked for interior because of being a Westerner, and I asked for science and technology, but I didn't get that until later on, and then, well, in both cases, I rose up the ranks to be the ranking Republican, meaning the senior Republican on Interior and Insular Affairs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=622.0,647.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And what year was that, that you became the ranking member? Do you? Gosh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=648.0,651.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't remember that, but it would have been somewhere in the late 70s, middle to late 70s, and then I stayed there as as the ranking member. I continued on on the committee until I left. But then the opportunity came to be the ranking member, Republican member, on science and technology, and I had a particular interest in that because of Los Alamos and Sandia being here and all the research, and so I became the ranking member of that but while I was on interior I did get the opportunity to be a member of the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=652.0,691.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: When did you leave the interior Committee?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=692.0,695.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It was 1988 when I decided to retire from Congress,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=696.0,702.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, you were on the Subcommittee on Energy and Environment. Yes. Were you not in 1973 Mo was chair of that subcommittee. What impression did you have of Mo as chair of that subcommittee? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=703.0,718.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thought he was a little liberal for for me, you know, but, but that was our basic difference, and that was the only again I, my feeling was that he was, he was more liberal than than I was more toward the environment than than what I would have been, although I couldn't criticize him for it, because, being a Westerner also, I had kind of those environmental tendencies towards the towards the land.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=719.0,757.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Was he effective as a, oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=758.0,758.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: very, very, very, as a matter of fact, one of his pride and joys was that the interior committee generated more legislation than any other committee. I don't know that that's good or bad, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=759.0,782.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I saw something where you were quoted as saying that you weren't really legislatively oriented. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=783.0,788.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: really was not, as a matter of fact, to this day, I don't, I don't think that, you know, we need to pass a law for for everything that that, for all the ills that we have, matter of fact, I think that the less laws that we have, the better off we are. But that's my my own political philosophy. But most pride and joy was that interior generated more legislation than any other than any other committee. So that was one difference that that we had. But he was very effective. He passed his legislation. Did you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=789.0,828.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in that period before about 1974 Did you ever see him move socially,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=829.0,835.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: just at receptions and things like that? We were not social friends, although, you know, I knew him, I knew knew the family.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=836.0,849.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, we were talking about knowing Moe on a social basis, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=850.0,854.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, we never, as a matter of fact, I never knew of moe to be very, very social, you know, into the social world of of Washington. Well, neither was I, but, but we would see each other at receptions and and doings that had to do with with interior, but that was the extent of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=855.0,873.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1974 November mo announced that he was a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. Did his announcement surprise you? And what was your reaction?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=874.0,885.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, you know, you always think the people that you know really, really well, that kind of your peers, so to speak, that that that's a big that's a big step. As a matter of fact, when I ran for congress myself, the very. First time I thought, Do I know what I'm doing? You know, am I really up to this? So you you always think, at least I do think about that. About your peers. You don't think of them as presidential timber. You think of them as one of the guys and and I've kind of changed my mind since then, since George Bush was in the Congress with us, you know, Gerald Ford and and and all of that. But yeah, it was kind of a surprise to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=886.0,926.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: me based on the amount of work that you did with him over the years. What kind of President Do you think he would have made? I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=927.0,934.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you would have been very good, but he'd have been a very active legislatively, he'd had a lot of different, different proposals, some that I would have liked, some that I would not have liked. I think one of the things that I would not have liked would have been, you know, the tying up of large acreage as wilderness areas or recreation areas and things like that, but, but that was a difference in philosophy. But I think he would have been a very active, active president. Legislatively, in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=935.0,972.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 1977 Mo, was named Chairman of the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee. You became ranking minority member around that time, around the same time with these two seemingly opposing positions, how did you two get along? We","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=973.0,990.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: worked together very well. You know, when one of the things that both of us did work was, you know, the art of the possible. I guess, more than anything, remember one particular issue that we had, that we were on completely opposite sides, the funding of intervenors, meaning those that would oppose nuclear hearings, nuclear licenses, those kinds of things, individuals that would intervene on some issue, either in court or before commissions or things like that. And there was a $2 million annual funding, which I opposed, and I offered an amendment that to zero it out. And Mo, of course, since there were a lot more Democrats than Republicans, he had more proxies than I did. And so we lost it. And so I asked for a record vote, which usually took about 1520, minutes, half hour, and and I lost the record vote. But then, remember, I had another amendment, and keep going. You know, each time asking for for a record vote, change it a little bit so that the amendment would be eligible. And he kept defeating me. And he says, Well, how far are you going with this thing? I said, Well, I don't know. You know, probably 2 million times at a buck an amendment or something like that. I said. He says, this pile of proxies that I have here. He says, feels like maybe $250,000 would be a proper figure to settle on. And I said, I think that's fine, you know, and, and that's what it how it ended up. So he was not dogmatic. He had his point of view, but he needed to move ahead and not have me bringing up amendment after amendment. And so there was a compromise there. And so that's why we were able to work together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=991.0,1132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That sort of comes into my next question and addresses it somewhat. I was going to ask what characteristics you would attribute to mo as as chairman, and what his style of leadership was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1133.0,1145.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, that was kind of kind of it, you know, we, we would talk about the amendments that were coming up the legislation, we each knew basically where the other one was, was going, and if at all possible, why we would work out some arrangement. But if he didn't like it, he'd just run over me. I mean, he had the votes and so but, but legislatively, we, we did communicate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1146.0,1176.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: a lot who was chair before mo I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1177.0,1180.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Haley was, yes, Congressman, Haley from from Florida, who had, who was married into the family of Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey Circus. And I believe he became an officer in the company after, after. That, and before that, it was Wayne Espinal from from Colorado, legendary chairman of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1181.0,1208.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: interior. Yeah. How did move style differ from theirs? Did the dynamics of the committee change at all with him as chairman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1209.0,1217.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, yes, yeah. Because you know, we were able to discuss things. He wasn't as dictatorial as Espanol, for example, Aspinall, well, I'll give you an example about Congressman Espinal, when I was first elected, Paul week, who was also a friend of Moses, he died just recently. Reporter for the Albuquerque journal asked me what I thought about the seniority system I had been in Congress about two months. I said I didn't like it. He asked me how I would change it. I said, Well, I would have the committee members vote, which later on did, as when the reforms came, but at that time, I mean, if you were the senior guy, you were the chairman, and that was it. And so he said, How would you change? I said, I would have the committee members vote. And he said, the natural follow up question, would you have voted for Espanol? And I said, No, I don't think so. There was somebody else that I thought knew the committee better, knew the issues better, and so he called me in because he found out that I had said that, and he asked me, and I said, Yes, sir, I did say those things. And he gave me a tongue lashing. And I said, Well, now you know, that's exactly why I said it. I said, you're talking to me like I'm in the eighth grader and you're the principal of the elementary school. And I said, representative, represent as many people as you do. The only thing you have on me is the seniority. And so that's why you're German, and I'm not. I thought, I might as well tell him, you know, I thought my career is over anyway, you know. And so years later, when he retired, because it wasn't like that, you know, when, as time went on, he did know what he was, what he was talking about. And so I went and I said, you know, you know, I was wrong in those days. Oh, he said I was wrong. He said, I went home and I asked my wife, and do I treat those guys like eighth graders? And she said, Yes. And he said, and he did change after after that, but another time, which is the dictatorial part about it. We were in Alaska, and we were freshmen congressmen, also three or four of us Happy Camp, Lloyd Mead, myself, one other, I can't remember who it was. And so we were going from village to village, and it was the Alaska pipeline, and on the Alaska Native Land settlements and all of that. And we get to this one place, and Aspinall says, we only have 15 minutes. And so amongst us, we decided we can't do that. You know, these people did their little dances and baked cookies and stuff like that. So we made this pact amongst ourselves when we're there, even though he wants to leave in 15 minutes, we'll just hang around and, you know, we'll extend the time. Well, we did, and he laughed and left us, left us there. We had to ride a truck onto the next town. Mo would have never done that. I mean, he was just not, not like that. But that's a difference","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1218.0,1419.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in style. What was the level of bipartisanship in the committee and, in fact, in Congress as a whole then as compared to now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1420.0,1430.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It was very good. Mo and I never had any difficulties. As far as the partisanship was concerned. Probably we did with Philip Burton, but I had as much trouble with him as Moe himself did one time. For example, I remember something was coming up and and Philip Burton was, believe he was the second man, or the third man on the committee at the at the time, and Moe was chairman, and Philip came very aggressive. And Moe turned to me and said, Man, I better hold on to this gavel. You know, like Philip was coming after, after his gavel. So he used to have a lot of trouble with Phil Burton, but, but he and I never, never did have much trouble","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1431.0,1486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1977 the year mo became chair, the strip Mining Reclamation Act was signed by President Carter. Did you support that bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1487.0,1497.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I don't know. I can't tell you. Probably I. Okay, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1498.0,1501.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you have any recollections at all about passage of that bill? Or did you travel to any of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1502.0,1506.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: those we did. We came to to Kayenta. I guess that's where the mine is. Is it in Kayenta? Or, anyway, yeah, the coal mine. And I do remember that as we were walking, one of the environmental gals that had come with us, Louise, was her first name. She picks up this chunk of coal, and she's mentioned how many BTUs were in that chunk of coal. I don't know if it really was or she was kidding or not, but, but I thought to myself, Well, no wonder the enviros kick us each time. You know, if she knows that, I have no idea how many BT years if they're that knowledgeable about about the product, no wonder they they beat us all the time, but, but that's one of the things that I do remember about that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1507.0,1562.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in in 1980 the Alaska Lands Act, first introduced by Mo in 1972 was was signed by President Carter. What was your position on that? I was for","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1563.0,1572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that we, we visited up there, and we tried, what we tried to do was to reduce the the amount of acreage that that would be granted, but, but we lost the battle and ended up supporting","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1573.0,1591.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it. New Mexico is a state that has a tremendous amount of land under federal control. Yes, was, did your constituency have any view on on that bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1592.0,1599.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, they never did. As a matter of fact, I got very little input on on on issues, by by my by my constituency, my work in in New Mexico, well, I would vote and participate in all the legislation and and all of that. But that was not a high priority. As far as I was concerned, my high priority, and is still, from a representation standpoint, is is the case work, the aiding people in their doings with the federal government and try to help them out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1600.0,1636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you go on any of the Alaska trips in conjunction. I gather. I gather the reception wasn't always very warm in Alaska. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1637.0,1649.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: wasn't, it wasn't bad. I remember going many, many times, and the the official them was not all in favor of that, but certainly the Alaska Natives were, matter of fact, when I was secretary of interior, one of the funny things that happened I went up there, went up up to the North Slope, up in Barrow. And so the the guy was telling us all about the beginnings of of the North Slope and all of that the oil exploration, he said. And here's a picture of the original congressional delegation that came when we were just starting this project. And here I am, you know, in the picture of that original one. And I felt like Methuselah, you know, like, really, one of the old old timers, you know that had, that had gone up there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1650.0,1706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Don young, the Republican congressman from Alaska, worked very hard to defeat the bill, as I understand it. What were your impressions of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1707.0,1714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Don Young? Well, I think Don is, is a very dedicated Alaskan. Incidentally, that's one of the things that I found when I went to Congress, that I never had a very good impression of people in government. I mean, having been in the insurance business all my life, all I knew was that the government took money away from me every April the 15th, so I didn't have a lot of good thoughts about but when I got there, I discovered most of the guys, you had one or two that had their bad things going, but 99.9% of the guys really worked hard for their district.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1715.0,1754.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Freeling, you have a call on","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1755.0,1758.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: line 101, Chris F line 101, they all work for the benefit of their district and their and their state, and that is what Don does. He'd get pretty mad at members of Congress if they voted against some particular issue that had to do with Alaska. He always felt like, you know, you got to do what, what I say when it comes to Alaska. Matter of fact, somebody from Indiana, I remember, introduced to bill about some wilderness stuff or something in in Alaska. And so he introduced a. Bill to make that member's district a wilderness, you know, and see how he liked it. But Don was always very, very mad about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1759.0,1808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: with anyone that wouldn't have been cyberling, would it? No, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1809.0,1812.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was not CyberLink. It was one of the young fellows, and it was, it was after, after CyberLink had left. But that was that was a dog fight with with cyber Ling and Don all the time. You know, that was for me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1813.0,1830.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How would you describe the relationship between Mo and Don young?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1831.0,1835.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He was more adversarial than than what I had had been, but they were good friends, and they got along, and it was a good natured fight, but they were more, you know, philosophically against against each other. But still, Moe got along real well, if you compare it to George Miller, who came after mo as chairman of the of the committee, the relationship between Don young and George Miller was a lot worse than between Don young and Mo.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1836.0,1872.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did that have to do with personality? I think so. I think so leadership style, also, or both. I think, how about the committee staff? Did you have much dealings with them? They were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1873.0,1884.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: very good to me. We we worked together. Amongst the staff itself, there was a lot of Republican Democrat friction, like, you know, this is our bill, and we're not going to give the Democrats the benefit of what we know, or vice versa, that we're not going to give the Republicans the benefit of what we know. We're going to keep that to ourselves, and we're going to run this thing. But amongst the members, with some there were, you know, those, those difficulties, but, but by and large, none. But there was in the staff, there was a lot of friction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1885.0,1923.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I understand that you sponsored a number of bills aimed at improving the circumstances of Native Americans. That was a key interest of Mo's as well. Did you work directly with Moe on any bills? A","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1924.0,1935.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: lot a lot of them. The only one that I remember that we were on opposite sides. Was on the Hopi Navajo issue. I was, I was on the Navajo side because they wanted to move, you know, the part of the bill was to move the Navajos out of the area that belonged to the Hopis. Eventually, they were not moved. They were given 75 years, or something like that, to move. But the reason for that is, when we moved to Santa Fe there was a church that was built near our house, and we were nine kids, so our house was pretty good size. It had four bedrooms and all that. Well, the preacher wanted to buy my mother's house, our house, and came to my mother, and my mother said, No, offered her twice what it was worth. And she said, No. I mean, this is, this is my home, and I will, I will never move. Goes back to the same experience of losing our farm, at the Indian Reservation and at Los Alamos and all of that. And that was my, my feeling, and so, so I that was one, probably the only one, really, that we were, that we were on opposite sides. I do remember the restoration of the Menominee tribe. That was one that we worked, worked together, and others, you know, so the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=1936.0,2017.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: archeological resources protection, yes, as two Western congressmen, it sounds like you were generally on common ground, as generally we were,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2018.0,2033.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: generally, except, I guess, usually on On wilderness, where there was really large pieces of property that that were put into wilderness, I Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2034.0,2046.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: except Alaska, of course, that went into Yes, Mo was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in the late 70s, but showed symptoms. I think before that you did, when did you personally become aware of his Parkinson's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2047.0,2061.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, very early on, because I, you know, I would see his his handshake and, and he would hold his hand when he'd pick up a paper and and all of that, I looked at it as a very tragic, tragic thing happening to a really good guy, a guy that I really cared for and admired. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2062.0,2081.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it affect his ability to chair the committee? Do you think,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2082.0,2086.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think it became a chore for him? His mind was was fine, but he was towards the. And there was not very effective, because he could not really push something that he was really interested in. But by the same token, you hated to oppose him on anything because of the sympathy factor. But I do believe that, you know there towards the last year or two that that he, he lost his his effectiveness. I went with him, incidentally, when I became Secretary of Interior, which was unusual. Mo asked me to go with him on a trip to Guam and Palau and and different places. And by then, he was he was pretty well. The disease was pretty well on its on its on its way. The doctor traveled with us. As a matter of fact, it wasn't personal. Physician from Arizona traveled with us and but, but we did, you know we went, we went to those","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2087.0,2171.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1988 In fact, I was, I was just about to get there in 1988 you decided not to run for Congress again. You'd been there 20 years. You wanted to do something else, just get out, but you didn't get out of town fast enough and President Bush to ask you to become Secretary of Interior. What was your reaction when he asked you to do that? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2172.0,2194.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I didn't want to. I had been asked by staff on three different occasions on a what if basis, what if the President Elect asks you to be in the cabinet? What would you say? And my answer to them was tell them not to ask me. So my brother was in Washington one day in December, and President Elect said, why won't Manuel be in the cabinet? You know, Is he sick? Because I had had a heart attack in 1984 85 somewhere in there. And my brother said, No, you know, he just wants to go home. That's That's all. He said. What? What would it take for him to be in the cabinet? Edwards said, Well, if you ask him, he'll he can't say no to you. And that's exactly what what happened. I was cleaning out my desk, and the phone rang, and it was George Bush. And said, What are you doing? I said, Well, I'm getting ready to go home. He said, You want to come by this evening? Come by the house. And that's,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2195.0,2260.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's how it all happened. Did you consult with Mo at all on that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2261.0,2265.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: issue? No, I did not, because by then, I was already distracted about coming home. My wife was here already. I called her. As a matter of fact, when the President called me, or the president elect called me, I said, What do you think you know? I know what he's going to ask me. And she said, Well, you know you got to do what you got to do, do whatever you want and but no, I did not talk to him about it, not before, because I only had three hours, I guess, you know, from the time he called me to to the time that I was over at his house and said, Yes, Stuart,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2266.0,2303.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you'd almost older brother was Secretary of Interior presidents Kennedy in Johnson. Yes, I'm guessing you probably didn't get a chance to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2304.0,2312.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no either. I did not serve during the time that Stuart was there. Incidentally, since leaving, I see more of Stuart than that. I did then, did you know Stuart? Then? No, I did not, okay, but, for example, we did some work together on the on the Baca location ranch. They via grande that the government is just just buying now, another little things that, but that was the main thing that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2313.0,2343.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So you have contact, yes, now on Guam, as I understand it was soon after you became Secretary of Interior, and Mo was still chairing the interior committee, he invited you to go on a congressional hearing in their congressional trip to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2344.0,2362.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was that unusual? It was very unusual in all the time that I was in Congress, no one you know, no cabinet secretary. Now, it may have been before you know, but, but that I know of, never had the Secretary of Interior been invited to go on a congressional trip, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2363.0,2380.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: especially with, with it being from a different part, yeah, particularly, yeah, that would be. How did that come about? Did he just call","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2381.0,2389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you? Just, yeah, we're going. How would you like to go?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2390.0,2395.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did your wife, Gina company? She did, yeah, was most. Married yet to Norma. It wasn't okay. Tell us something about the Guam trip. What was it? Well, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2396.0,2411.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was nothing unusual, because I had been there a couple of times before so had mo I believe that at that point, there was a point Udall established, which was the western most, or eastern most, or whatever it is, over there at one end of the earth. And then there's another Udall point, maybe for Stuart over in the Virgin Islands, or, you know, so that at each end of all of the territories of the United States, there's a Udall there's a Udall point. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2412.0,2448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Eastern, yeah, and Western. So you think that the Guam point was established, then it was established. And that's one of the things I wondered, yeah, when that was as as secretary, while you were secretary and Mo was chairman, did you collaborate on many issues? We","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2449.0,2463.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: did? You know I well, like, for example, when I was appointed secretary, and they have hearings, the hearing before Moe was two minutes long. It was more than a courtesy, you know, it was a sign of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2464.0,2488.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: friendship and goodwill and and everything. But it is customary and mandatory that you have these hearings when a new guy comes in to size him up and and all of that. And like I say, our mind lasted two minutes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2489.0,2502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did did mo treat you any differently as Secretary of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2503.0,2507.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Interior than No, we were. We continue to be, continued to be friends and and I don't remember any serious disagreement we had when I was secretary of interior. One of the things that I do remember was the National Park Service with the concessionaire program. I had had a foundation here in Albuquerque that raised money for scholarships. Hence I used to have concerts and wrestling matches. And so I got to know the concessionaires for the State Fair Grounds and the university property and all of that. And I knew that they paid 45 to 50% of the gross in fees to the university or the State Fair Commission, or whoever the National Park concessionaires paid an average of two and a half percent. And I thought, these guys, you know, they're really ripping off. So I did a study and determined that the rate should be 22 and a half percent. And the reason for that, that was half of what these guys would pay, because the concessionaires in the park service were normally rural, so it was more expensive for them to do business. So I set it at 22 and a half percent. But before I did that, I went back to Congress and talked to Mo Udall and talked to Sid Yates, who was chairman of the Appropriations Subcommittee, Ralph regular, who was the senior Republican on that Appropriations Subcommittee, Don young, all of those that would have something to do with the Park Service, because I knew that the concessionaires would be coming to them and saying, you know, what's the matter with This guy? You know, we're going to go broke. Are you going to change? You can continue. I'm going to need to change. And so I said, Look, I'm going to do this. When they come to you, sympathize with them if you want to tell them, I knew that Lujan was no good. You know, he wasn't any good when he was here. He's not any better now, but so you can do all that, but don't pass a bill or an amendment that I cannot raise it and and they didn't, you know, I don't know if they said that I was up, that I was still no good, but, but, but I could do that because I had been a former member of Congress, and he was my friend, and the others were my friends, had I come in from the outside, I don't think that I'd have been able","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2508.0,2662.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: to be more difficult. Yeah, okay, I will take this opportunity to take the tape over. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297#t=2663.0,2665.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146505/file/270297/transcript/78616/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/616/original/azu_ms396-021_side1_a.vtt?1744913895","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/616/original/azu_ms396-021_side1_a.vtt?1744913895"}]}]}]}