{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/mc8rb6x934/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Jason Buch"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright The Arizona Board of Regents.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe Celeste Gonzalez de Bustamante and Jeannine E. Relly Oral History Collection interview 37\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS533.037 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Documented Border collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2014-06-26 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["interview"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Mexico","temporal; 21st Century"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Censorship--Mexico--History--21st century","Freedom of the press--Mexico--History--21st century","Human rights--Mexico","Journalism--Mexico--21st century","Journalists--Mexico--Crimes against","Women journalists--Mexico"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["The Celeste Gonzalez de Bustamante and Jeannine E. Relly Oral History Collection, MS 533"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Gonzalez de Bustamante, Celeste (interviewer)","Buch, Jason (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe Celeste Gonzalez de Bustamante and Jeannine E. Relly Oral History Collection interview 37\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright The Arizona Board of Regents.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - azu_ms533_037_a.mp3"]},"duration":2177.16,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/174/681/original/azu_ms533_037_a.mp3?1676505960","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2177.16,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Jason Buch Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SUMMARY KEYWORDS\n\nreporting, people, journalists, mexico, story, money, cover, issue, laredo, border, cartel, drugs, northern mexico, writing, big, drug trade, news, nuevo laredo, city, dea","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=2178.0,3603.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Okay. Okay, so thanks so much for doing this interview starts out a little formally with asking your name. And if you can tell us your name, your title, what your organization is and where you report from and on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3603.0,3621.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My name is Jason book, I may. I'm the immigration border affairs reporter at the San Antonio Express News. And that entails covering local immigration issues in San Antonio, as well as some other international trade crime type issues. And I also cover Val Verde, Maverick, web and Zapata counties for the paper.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3621.0,3650.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you can tell me tell us about your education and your age","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3650.0,3655.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"31 I went to Texas State University in San Marcos, graduated in 2007. And with a journalism degree or yes, yeah, journalism and mass communication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3655.0,3666.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So you've been working in journalism, how long?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3666.0,3670.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Seven years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3670.0,3671.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Great. Thanks. So just to get a sense of your perception of reporting along the border, if you could tell us a little bit about what it was like reporting along the border when you first started, maybe when that was and then how, and if it's changed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3671.0,3691.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, I started my career to write a morning times. And it's kind of difficult to compare them to now because I was so much less ambitious. When I was young, I mean, I was still getting my feet wet. And and, and then I had a very specific beat at Florida morning times, which was the courts beat so so I covered federal and state district courts, as I as I got more into it, I did some reporting out of North Laredo in covered stories on both sides of the border. But at the time knew of Laredo was very quiet, it had gone through a period of violence and turmoil. But when I was there from 2007, to 2009, it was pretty quiet. And my attention was so narrowly focused to the Laredo, Nuevo Laredo area that, you know, while I was there was was blowing up. But that was not really an issue for me, I knew about it. But that was not something that really affected me the, the area I was in was calm. Now that I've now that I'm at the San Antonio Express News with with a much broader mandate. One thing I have to be more ambitious, I mean, the center and Express News expects a lot more. So that means taking on much more difficult stories. And that means in the issues that confront, journalists in Mexico, are very much more in the forefront. For me, now, I'm pretty cautious of the people, I only go to Mexico a few times a year, they're usually a lot of stories on the Texas side of the border to keep me occupied. So I'm not running into some of the issues that I think people spend a lot more time in Mexico, for example, I've never, I've never been threatened. had people maybe some oblique things where people brought up that what I was running about was dangerous, but never anything where I felt directly threatened. So I've managed to avoid that. And frankly, living in San Antonio makes things much easier. I mean, once I started to get more and more ambitious, in Laredo, I think there was a much, much bigger concern at that time, because I lived so close to the border, whereas as now even though I'm writing things that perhaps might upset, you know, government officials or, or, you know, organized criminal criminal organizations in Mexico, the removal from the border, I think sort of lessens the risk. You know, I can always retreat back up 35.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3691.0,3845.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Can you tell us a little bit about some of the challenges that you've faced even in Laredo, but you know, and reporting in northern Mexico, any of the any of the challenges that you've crossed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3845.0,3857.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, the state of Tamaulipas is incredibly difficult to deal with. And one caveat is i My Spanish is very rudimentary. So this is it's sort of a constant problem I can do man on the street type stuff, but when I get beyond that, it gets to be very difficult. But at the state of Tamaulipas is just incredibly difficult to deal with. And, and where they've been, it's almost like sometimes a black hole of information, just the state itself. It's really, really hard to get information out of them. And it's dangerous to deal with them at times. You know, I have been warned by other reporters against I called the prosecutor's office in Nuevo Laredo one time was asking them some questions. They said, Look, we don't know Who you are, you need to come here and talk to us and was warned by the journalist don't go there, that's a dangerous place to be, you shouldn't be there. So you're sort of stuck in this catch 22 of you can't go there to get the information, and they're not going to tell it to you. And again, that may be may be me being overly cautious. But but, you know, I, just as sort of a, an example of why I think it's dangerous. I was covering a trial in Austin last year, where a former clerks clerk for the federal attorney general's office and Miguel Amman was testifying. And he was testifying that he started in 2000. And his job as a clerk at the prosecutor's office was to take bribes. That was his entire job, he went around and collected money from every trafficking organization. So, you know, some of these offices are very deeply infiltrated. And it really I mean, there is a very good reason to be concerned with with exposing yourselves to them. So that that can be sort of the number one issue. I mean, Tamaulipas is just a very difficult place to get information out of, you know, another big concern, which is something that, you know, it flies in the face of what you're taught in J school, was just to get everything on the record or to push for as much information as possible. And in a lot of these situations, you're putting other people in danger. Being seen with you being quoted by name. I mean, there's a whole list of things that can really cause people problems in in where I do my reporting, for the most part in, in Coachella and in Tamaulipas. I don't worry as much in Monterey. I mean, it's such a big city. It's a giant, you know, Metroplex I don't get that feeling of like, like, East Bloc, sort of, you know, everyone's watching you type thing the way I do in, in in the border cities in tamale plus and and Coahuila. So I don't, I'm not as concerned there. But definitely. And even still to I feel pretty comfortable. But but the border cities, the Texas border, or the border cities across Texas, across from Texas are very, you know, they, they're very, it feels dangerous. And it's a definite concern that you could be putting someone in harm's way, just do basic reporting. And so that's something you, you, it like I said, it flies in the face of your J school training, because you're holding back or you're asking telling someone else to hold back, or you're more concerned about them maybe than they are, but you know, it's better than having some sort of, you know, something on your conscience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=3857.0,4062.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So do you do sometimes your editors are fine with anonymous sources, and that sort of thing is on there. They're very cross verified? Mexico?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4062.0,4072.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, I don't I, I usually sit on information until it can be. We don't do a lot of anon. I mean, we do sometimes. But we don't do a lot of anonymous sourcing. I mean, certain sometimes man on the street type stuff, someone's not comfortable giving you their name. They're just talking about the situation. I mean, that's not that's not such a big deal. But, you know, I but we don't rush off with a lot of anonymous sourcing. Sometimes we do. I mean, we did a, a whole big Sunday piece on a guy who had been granted withholding of removal, which is similar to asylum, but it's a higher burden, and it's for someone who already has a removal order. And, and I hope I got the legal issues there. Right. But you know, an immigration file is closed, unless, unless the the, the immigrant agrees to have it open. And, and so technically, his case was sealed, but he kind of wanted to tell his story. But he was being targeted by the cartels. That's why he was being given withholding of removal. So you know, it was a very weird gray area situation, right? We he showed us court documents that told his story. And if it had not been an immigration case, we would have said, Look, dude, you don't you don't get an anonymity because it's a public record. But this was a court document that was not a public record. So we it was a very difficult issue to deal with, in that I was able to convince the editors, but they were initially very uncomfortable with it, as were the company lawyers who were, you know, checking the story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4072.0,4177.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Good example. Do you have any relationships or associations with journalists in northern Mexico where you share information or, or support one another in any way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4177.0,4191.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah. I mean, my, I guess, value to journalists in northern Mexico is I spent all A lot of time in US federal courts and state district courts. And so I get I get emails asked me for court documents a lot, or it's explained court documents, and I'm generally happy, especially if I've already run the story to, to share that, that kind of information. And, and so it ends up being, you know, a mutually beneficial relationship a lot of the time, you know, they'll help me keep track of stuff that's going on in northern Mexico or help show me around when I'm in town somewhere. So, yeah, I mean, definitely. And I think I just, I think there's a real you know, it's so it's become such a, the board has become so much harder and faster than it used to be. The I think that the value of that building those relationships is really the premium on that has really gone up in the last few years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4191.0,4260.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Thanks. So looking at some of your colleagues in northern northern Mexico. So do you have you found that there are journalists working in each one of the states that are adjacent to the ones you're working the north side of the border? are, you know, journalists in each state that are doing investigations, doing investigative journalism, or at least reporting? You know, public affairs?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4260.0,4284.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, you know, talking about the zone of silence thing, I think, is a really difficult issue because I don't want to I don't want to downplay the threats that people are facing is people getting killed, people are getting beaten, people are having real journalists are having really terrible things happen to them in Tamaulipas, in particular, but also Coahuila. And so I don't want to downplay that, but I also, you know, when you when, when this, you hear the term zone, zone of silence a lot, and I think it ends up being really dismissive of, of the work people are doing. The best stuff, I think is coming out of of, well, I mean, obviously, I'm North days that the giant in northern Mexico and maybe it's like, almost, you know, it doesn't really count because there's so he's such a huge city, such a huge organization, they have the backing up reformer, it really makes them you know, they have a lot, it's, it's, I think it you know, with that kind of backing, they're able to do stuff that that other people, they can do stuff in the about the violence and that type of thing that other people maybe can't get away with. It would be it's almost just like if you were to drop, you know, la into into northern Mexico, and, and have the LA Times reporting on that stuff. But in in Vanuatu, the insult to is does really good stuff. I mean, really good investigative stuff. And in and LC glentoran also does really good, investigative reporting. And I think it's it's worth noting that in some areas, writing about the government, and writing about the narcos is the same thing. You know, the it's, there's an immigration attorney in El Paso and Carlos Specter, who will sometimes use the term authorized crime. This is not organized crime, it's authorized by the government. And I think it may be in some areas of the country. It goes beyond that to where the government and the cartels are one entity. So, if you're writing about some sort of government malfeasance, you're taking on the same risk as though you were writing about the head of the SEC does. So, you know, I think it's important to note that any writing about the government is is is dangerous like that. You know, Al Manyana. In Orlando, they've gone through periods of writing very little. And they've been, I think, lately, a little more bold. I would say that the family that owns it is I think they have a random rants, a family member on the council, city council ticket and one recently, so that may have something to do with they're being a little more bold. But then you get into other areas like a Kunia and business negatives, and I don't see a whole lot coming out of the traditional newspapers, they're now you know, that the Internet creates a whole sort of different issue where there's people doing a lot of a lot of really interesting stuff in pretty investigative I mean, there was a whole an online news organization on Monday. did a whole investigation of Karmapa the municipal water utility and money missing from there, now, they they didn't, they didn't sort of adhere to the same standards that I would be expected to I know that people involved in the story mentioned the story whenever contacted for comment. So you know it, it undermines the credibility of the news organization when they do things like that not give everyone a chance to give their to give their their side of the story, but I mean, certainly it was, there was definitely a story there that they aired.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4284.0,4541.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Good, good. Just switching a little bit to something that we've talked with some journalists about, in terms of covering the northern side of the border, even mainly the northern side of the border, have you noticed from colleagues, whether gender makes inish a difference or not? Whether it is easier to access? Easier to investigate if you're a man versus a woman in speaking with your colleagues, or from your own experience?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4541.0,4574.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, as a man, probably I would probably wouldn't be able to come back. Because usually, you know, we're not the ones who have the, the, the problems. That mean, to my knowledge, you know, note, you know, I'd imagine that in a lot of these small towns, it's a lot easier for me than it is than it would be for a woman. I, I definitely when I was in Laredo would sometimes be asked by journalists, journalists visiting from out of town to accompany them to Mexico. And at the time, I thought it was because they were impressed with my writing. But in retrospect, it was probably just because they wanted a guy to come along with them. But I mean, I just, you know, I, you know, a lot of these towns are really stuck in another century, even on the US side. And so I have to just guess that it would be easier for me isn't man, but that's, you know, speculation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4574.0,4630.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Great, thanks. I'm looking at some of the crime scenes that colleagues have sort of witnessed on the south side, north side of the Mexico border. You may have seen some of them, you have probably colleagues and friends who have at least seen them, you know, lots of dead bodies over and over and over. You know, some have asked about how people manage or you know, whether they have been traumatized. I don't know if you have any friends or colleagues who have gone through that. Or maybe you have any comments on how people are dealing with seeing really horrendous things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4630.0,4670.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, people I know, people who've had really horrendous things happen to them, you know, not just witnessed them. I've, like, I've never been threatened. I don't generally go to No, I'm usually sort of doing coming in a week later and doing this sort of like, Oh, what happened here? type of thing. So you know, I, I've never we've never really talked about how do you deal with that? What do you do? I mean, it's, you know, I don't know a lot of journalists who talk about, about that kind of thing. I mean, maybe when people are deep into their cups. But that's probably the closest thing that any kind of therapy anybody's discussed with me, and it's probably not a very healthy, healthy way. But you know, I think there's like a sort of people who people cover this stuff. There's sort of a lot of a lot of lot of swagger involved. And people don't want to, at least with me, there there. What's happened in the in the end, is some people I know, I've had really bad things happen to them. And I don't think they don't want to discuss it. I don't think they don't want to go back into that, you know, hanging out at a convention or at a bar or whatever. So, you know, I don't, I'm not I don't really know how, you know, the people who've had really bad things happen to them or seen really bad things, cope with it. It's certainly not something that they discussed with me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4670.0,4768.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Thank you. How about people who have gone through heavy duty, things like that? Any sense of how they keep going.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4768.0,4780.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, I noticed an unhealthy, I noticed an unhealthy attachment to the work, that it were it sort of becomes all consuming. In there. They're sort of letting other things fall by the wayside. I mean, I think, you know, I think that's sort of where you're the people who keep going. I mean, I think that's sort of where they end up going, they direct everything into the job. And, and, and that's it, you know, they're just sort of blocking everything out and blocking out what what happened with them? What happened or what happened to them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4780.0,4815.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm going to ask a forward looking question unless you have any. Do you have any other? So just wondering, looking ahead, having looking back and then looking ahead, your Do you have any sense on what it may be like in the coming years to report in this area, this region that you're reporting in? Do you think things will calm down? It'll get any easier. You know, there's also this sort of the change in the the president of the country, I don't know if you've noticed any difference. That's been it's been a little while it's almost two years, coming up on any difference between those two periods.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4815.0,4860.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, the issues are so regionalised and I'm not in Mexico City, so I can't really, I can't really say, you know, if the presidency had much of an issue, like certainly having a pawn mayor in Nuevo Laredo, I don't know if it's a a party thing, or if it's a personality thing in the latest mayor, but it's mainly the new mayor Nuevo Laredo has made it easier to report in the way of Laredo. So I mean, you know, but but the issues I see are so regionalised I mean, right now, I feel like you can go into Nuevo Laredo and move around a little easier than you used to be able to. Whereas, you know, this whole week I've been here, everyone's warned me against going to renessa. Except for the person I talked to today, who goes there to get her braces worked on? But, yeah, so it's, it's really hard to say, you know, I think certainly the increased attention makes it easier, you know, I really feel like, like, the more reporting we can do on the US side sort of lifts that pressure. When the government officials and the cartel leaders become accustomed to seeing their names in the paper and being reported on and being questioned. You know, it reduces their need to lock down. If the information if you know, if the information is if information is coming out anyway. You know, though, they're, they're not going to go to the trouble of trying to clamp down on everything. So, you know, my hope would be that that is there's more and more attention paid to this. And I do feel like there's more attention being paid, that that would sort of relieve some of the pressure. But I don't know if that's if that's necessarily the case. But do you see it on a case by case basis again, you know, Rubin more data is the governor of Coachella right now. And his brother, Humberto was was governor before and even with just succeeding one brother to the other. I'm told by friends and journalists in Coahuila that it's more open that there's it's easier to report now. So I mean, just a governor change or mayoral change can can affect that, but you know, governor's have six year terms, and mares have three year terms. So that's, you know, the situation could change, you know, immediately. At least from that standpoint.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=4860.0,5020.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I did have a question. You cover a lot of trials of people suspected of drug trafficking or organized crime. And there's a lot been said about not enough reporting being done on this side of the drug war. And I'm just wondering, curious about your thoughts about what what stories aren't being covered with respect to that here on this side on the US side?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5020.0,5047.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, that's certainly the niche I've tried to carve out for myself. So I hope that you know, that there's not a whole lot being done on it, because it makes it makes me a little more valuable. I mean, a lot of you know, a lot of the time we're bound by what we can what comes out in these court cases, right. I mean, it's hard to accuse someone of being of being a money launderer or a drug trafficker, right, like, I mean, I there's a guy who pleaded guilty in in San Antonio recently to money laundering. And he was pointed out to me in Laredo in 2008, as a as someone who who, who laundered money and the reason it was being pointed out pointed out to me was because he he donated to some local politicians and they were trying to get me to write a story. Oh, this politician takes money. For take donations from a money launderer, but, you know, what did I have, and it's something that someone was saying to me. Fast forward three years, his brother's killed in Nuevo Laredo. And the set is hanging a month accusing of being in money launder inside pitch that story and it didn't pass muster with the editors. And so it wasn't until he was indicted in early 2012. Or he was he was arrested on a criminal complaint. So it wouldn't when he was arrested by the DEA in early 2012, that I was able to get a story in the paper. So, you know, I think the money laundering is a big issue. And, and when we've done a lot of is we when there's an asset forfeiture, sometimes there'll be an asset forfeiture, and there won't be a prosecution tied to it for a very long time. But, but you can get ahead of it by digging up the LLCs generally, it's property in their LLC that on the property and you can start building the network. And if you want to take the time sort of reporting back and I've seen other reporters do this, the cashiers can remember the paper in Florida but some retirees in Florida had basically been tricked into laundering money for the sentence like millions of dollars through a wire transfer thing. And, and I really would like to give credit to the paper but I cannot remember what it is. But you know, they they put together very good story interviewed, the people involved put together a very good story based on the the asset forfeiture lawsuit. So you can start there and build out you know, I think another another important version of these stories was the Commercial Appeal. I think that's the the Memphis paper they had, it was like a local, like organized crime group with buying large amounts of drugs from I can't remember which cartel, but you know, the leader of this gang, which these were, you know, us guys got when that an indictment was coming in, took off, the cadet throne was eventually caught and cut out though, they did a great job of covering the trials of the people involved. And they sent someone a reporter got a Pulitzer travel grant to go to, to get out there and report on where this guy was hiding out and that kind of stuff. So some people are really, really doing good stuff there. But, you know, there was a again, I'm not gonna give someone credit for this, but there was really good, I think it was a New York Times magazine piece about Chapo Guzman. And it was like, the writer went and dug up some old testimony on on, on chapel that nobody had bothered nobody had ever bothered to dig up before. You know. So there's a lot of information sitting around in US courtrooms that that the journalists aren't exploiting. And, and Javier Garza, who, who used to be the editor of siglent, thorium had a piece in Columbia Journalism Review a few years ago, saying the US needs to do a better us papers need to do a better job there fixating on the situation Mexico and they need to do a better job of, of reporting on on basically just how the drug trade works. Right. I mean, and I think that's important, because I talked about the money laundering, I think that's a big issue, because, you know, they put their money here, I mean, they buy their their guns here, they sell their drugs here, and they, they keep their money here. So that is a pretty important thing for us to write about. On the drug trade side of news, every single town has everything, every single town in the United States has a thriving drug market. And it can that can be a dangerous thing to report on. You know, the Mexican papers are sort of forced to report on the drug war, because it's happening. So. So obviously, right, but for us, you know, they saw political analysts from Mexico City, I think it was Luis Rubio was speaking in San Antonio, and he was saying that the US is essentially reached this, this agreement with with the criminal organizations that as long as you don't do anything above this level, you can sort of operate for a significant amount of time without without us messing with you. So we essentially have a thriving drug market in the United States. In we're not really forced to report on it, because everyone operates under this sort of level that the government is set, well just don't kill a lot of people, you know, just don't go around shooting things up and there won't be a problem. But the result of that, sort of, you know, that black market in the US that operates sort of under the radar and doesn't get messed with is is the issue in Mexico. So it's like, do we have an obligation to report on what's going on here in the US but again, you know, when you start reporting on that, I mean, that can be dangerous. Even when you're reporting on local gangs and stuff, and we don't have the same issues, when someone gets arrested, we're allowed to write about them getting arrested, what you may not be able to do in Tamaulipas or Coahuila. I mean, you know, you know, when the DEA sends out a news release that they arrested some people, we have no fear of writing that story. Whereas when you know, Pat, or somebody sends out a news release in in, in Mexico, you know that in some areas of the country, there's a legitimate fear against that, but we could definitely do a better job of reporting on on the drug trade in the US. And, you know, this answer is getting pretty long winded. But there's, I give some examples of people who are doing good work. So let me do give one and I won't name the paper. But there was a I was backtracking a case that an attorney from Laredo had been indicted for being a bag man for the cartel, he had essentially been charged with taking money to a, someone who had been indicted to, to keep them silent, from from Mexico to somewhere in the south to keep this person from, from talking. And when the guy had already flipped. And so the guy was setting him up to go down. So by sort of reading the court documents and in sort of backtracking with the prosecutors in that in that US city and in the defense attorneys, I was able to figure out who the informant was. And realize that he was a Houston based informant who are Houston based drug trafficker who sent drugs all over the southeast United States and the DEA in one of these cities had managed to get on him and took down sort of his his organization in that city, and then going back to Houston. And so he was prosecuted in that city. And in talking, he took the stand and testified against the his local connection. And talking to prosecutors and defense attorneys. They said it was the biggest drug case in that city's history. And, and the guy who ran the entire operation was on the stand. And the only reporting done was were to briefs based on the US Attorney's offices, news releases. And it's, uh, yeah, I mean, this is like the, you know, everyone's cutting, having someone in the federal courthouse all the time, is, you know, luxury, I guess some papers don't have any unfortunately, we have someone in the state, this is in the state district courts and the federal courthouse, and I get to cruise around South Texas and hanging out in federal courthouses. So we're, you know, not everyone can even cover their own federal courthouse, so we have a luxury to get into some of this stuff that other people don't. But to me, I was like, that this is that's an opportunity to to explain to your readers, to some degree, how the drug trade works in your city, you know, when they're putting someone like that, on the stand, you're getting this first hand account of how the drug trade works, going from Mexico to you know, and I don't know how far down the chain of command, they are far down the chain, you know, the network this this trial do, but at least how the drugs get from Mexico to your city and some idea of the distribution process. And so that's something that we could do better, I think in you know, like I said, for us, it's a luxury, that we're allowed to do that. And, you know, maybe it's harder, it's a lot harder for other papers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5047.0,5617.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"A really good example of Is there anything we didn't, anything we didn't cover that you'd like to mention?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5617.0,5627.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No, I mean, I think that, that that issue is important of like, what can we do in the US because it doesn't always have to be you know, about, about necessarily about Mexico. But there are a lot of stories, you know, locally that affect the drug trade that are still I mean, they trace back and it's I mean, it's all, you know, it's it's all sort of one big network, you know, it sort of drives me nuts when the DEA is like, we arrested 700 cartel members and like, you know, 500 of them were just like truck drivers and stuff. You know, they're not really cartel members. But I mean, it's all sort of the same, the same organism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5627.0,5668.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I guess one of the difficult thing here in the States is it seems like from what I understand, the network is more fractionalized. So it's, I mean, it maybe that's one way that things stay under the radar a little bit more, do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5668.0,5684.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, yeah, I mean, it depends from place to place. I mean, certainly, yeah. You know, the farther they can control the drugs, the more money they make off it, you know, wholesaling at the border is way less lucrative than being able to, you know, do drive all the way to, you know, wherever Washington state, you know, in and sell the drugs to, you know, a local distributor. I mean, I'm, I'm sure that's part of it. I mean, you don't necessarily draw that, that direct connection, you know, in and a big, big news organizations that can afford to send people into Mexico are going to be way more interested in, in the big violence in Mexico that story than they are. You see, I mean, the, the Chapo story, I think did a good job of showing the US side of things and how it how they distributed in the US. So they'll do that sometimes, but certainly in any it's hard to ignore, right? I mean, if you're a big news organization, and you can afford to send people to a country that has the serious problems, I mean, how could you not do that? And then in in smaller news organizations, you know, they don't they don't see the direct connection or they don't have the resources. So, you know, it's sort of it's hard to be too critical.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5684.0,5772.0"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681/transcript/41743/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Thank you so much. Cool.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1285/collection_resources/86431/file/174681#t=5772.0,2177.16"}]}]}]}