{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/9s1kh0gk9s/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Richard Olson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 2, tape 22"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Olson, Richard (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-09-09"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Virginia--Fairfax (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Richard Olson conducted by Julie Ferdon. Olson was an aide for Stewart Udall beginning in 1955. Olson discusses his work on Morris Udall's campaign and Udall's political participation."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.029 (uid)","MS396.030 (uid)","MS396.031 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Richard Olson conducted by Julie Ferdon. Olson was an aide for Stewart Udall beginning in 1955. Olson discusses his work on Morris Udall's campaign and Udall's political participation."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 5 - azu_ms396-029_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2647.296,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/305/original/azu_ms396-029_side1_a.mp3?1744847847","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2647.296,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape number 22 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good morning. It's Wednesday, September 9, 1998 and we're at the home of Richard Olson in Fairfax, Virginia. My name is Julie ferdow, and I would like to welcome Dick Olson to another in a series of oral history interviews that form the Morris K Udall oral history project, Dick, thank you for your participation. I'd like to start just with some biographical information, if I might. You were born September 13, 1922 Yes. And was that St Paul, Minnesota? Yes. Yes, thus the Olson part of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1.0,43.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Swedish ancestry. Yes, that's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=44.0,46.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I noticed that you moved around a lot as a child, going from from Minnesota to Missouri to North Dakota, South Dakota. Was this due to your father's work? Or, Yes, it was okay. What did he do? My father","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=47.0,60.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was a traveling salesman, and he I look upon my father and my mother as as examples of American entrepreneurship. I mean, here they were. They were first generation Americans, all of their parents had had migrated to this country from from Northern Europe and at at a just in their early 20s, they my dad was working as a shoe clerk. My mother was working as a beauty operator. They decided that they would make a big move. My dad got a job as a salesman for the US Rubber Company covering all of South Dakota. I Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=61.0,122.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, we're back again. You were speaking about your parents as entrepreneurs, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=123.0,126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and my mother, who was just in her early 20s, made the decision to start a beauty shop of her own in Watertown, South Dakota, a vanity beauty shop. It was right downtown. And so she was, she was very successful. My dad was very successful. And I thought, I thought that I was the richest kid in Watertown, until the depression, and then everything changed. So it was because of the depression, the fact that my dad lost his job, and one thing another, that finally we had to move to Missouri, where my dad had succeeded in getting another job, and we lived there for a couple of years, and it wasn't a very good job. And finally got a better job, which required our moving to Fargo, North Dakota. And so that explains our moving around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=127.0,186.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, and you from 1940 to 41 you attended the University of North Dakota and then moved over to North Dakota Agricultural,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=187.0,195.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that's right. The reason for that was that my folks couldn't really afford to send me to college, so I was paying my own way, and going to the University in Grand Forks required more money than I than I really had. I mean, I I in my freshman year, I was the photographer for the university yearbook, if you can believe it. But I also worked as a waiter in my fraternity house, and one thing and another, but it was a struggle. And so that summer, I went back to work for the Fargo Forum, which I had, where I had worked the previous summer. What was the Fargo forum? The Fargo forum, it's the daily it's the largest daily newspaper in North Dakota. Oh, okay, and so I, I went back to work for the forum. As soon as I got back from Grand Forks, and I decided to take a job as a as a night proofreader during the regular school year. So that required my transferring to to what we then called the AC, and what was your major there? Well, at the time, I hadn't decided on a major, but my intention was to to transfer to the University of Minnesota after the first two years, and major in journalism. So that was my intention at the time. All of that changed with the war,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=196.0,292.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and you went, you enlisted in 1942 is that correct? Yes. A Naval Reserve.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=293.0,300.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, hardly anyone enlisted in the United States Navy itself during the war. The additional personnel provided during the during the war generally, were were recruited in what is known as the US Naval Reserve. But I was in the Navy. I was in the Navy for three and a half years and and when the war ended, I got out. So I was not in the regular Navy, which would have required a six year recruitment and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=301.0,338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I see did you serve on a ship?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=339.0,342.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, I did. What was your position? I was the I was the photographer in charge of a photo lab on a repair ship which served the advanced fleet of Halsey and Spruance and McCain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=343.0,360.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What kind of places did you go?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=361.0,364.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, we went to the Solomon Islands and then the Admiralty islands, the West Caroline Islands, and in particular, we were at a place called Ulithi for seven months, which it was a staging area for the invasion of Okinawa and Saipan and so on. And it was, it was there that we, that we did repair work for some of the famous ships of the of the war, like the like the the enterprise and the Franklin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=365.0,413.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Many you got to see a lot of those, a lot of those ships, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=414.0,416.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was on board, you know, all of them, and got to know the photographers and all these ships, and have many stories about my relations with these, with these other operations. But anyway, that was my experience during the war. That's great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=417.0,438.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You were discharged in 1946 Yeah. And then you returned to the North Dakota Agricultural College and the Fargo forum, yes. Working there. 1947 you married Patricia pucha. Or is that how? That's right, you pronounce it Okay, and with whom you had four children? Yes, in 48 the following year you you moved to Tucson, Arizona. Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=439.0,471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: why? Why? I had intended, prior to this great romance. To transfer to to brown or Dartmouth or some school like that. I had delusions of grandeur, and I was working on that when I suddenly found myself falling in love and getting involved in the whole thing. And so we, we decided to get married, and rather than, rather than continue this effort to find some great school that I would apply to the University of Arizona, where where a new brother, a brother in law of mine, was teaching, he was teaching in the engineering school. So we, I made the change and and enrolled at the university and the in the spring of 48","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=472.0,546.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what? What did you major in there? Philosophy, philosophy. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=547.0,553.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: don't, don't ask me why. I won't ask you why.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=554.0,558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In in 1950 from 1950 to 55 you worked for the Arizona daily citizen as a Tucson daily citizen, I'm sorry, Tucson daily citizen, what did you do for the citizen? I beg your pardon. What did you do for the citizen? Oh, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=559.0,576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I started out as a general assignment reporter in moved to rewrite. Then I became co city editor and acting city editor in. Yeah, and then I was, I was given the assignment of entertainment editor with responsibility for the the Saturday supplement, which at that time was just a little five column tabloid newspaper. I then converted it into a magazine format, and it was known as on the town and for for the next two years, I was probably the the best known writer on either newspaper. And had just said, had marvelous time interviewing with famous personalities like Walt Disney and Oscar Hammerstein and what fun and movie stars like Greer Garson and so on. And I just had a had a great time. However, I wasn't making any money, and I had four kids, so eventually that had to come to an end, and and I left the citizen and started a public relations business, and simultaneously, he took a job with the new or my friend, the new congressman, Stuart Udall, as a part time aide managing his Tucson Office.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=577.0,697.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now what? What what did you What did you do for Stewart? This was, let's say he was elected in 1954 right? You started working for him in 55 right? What did you do for him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=698.0,717.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, in truth, I, I worked in all of his campaigns. And in those days that wasn't a problem. In those days, being on a on a congressional staff did not preclude you're also being involved in in the campaigns and and in fact, I was involved in in in Stewart's campaigns and most campaigns for many years while being a member of the staff. But in addition to that, I I was asked to write speeches and articles, and I was assigned to various projects, for example, one having to do with the soil bank, and I gathered information on the Arizona farmers who were receiving very large payments from the soil bank for not planting crops and my my research resulted in a big, big nationwide news story that ran in all the magazines and newspapers about these fat cat Arizona farmers getting $200,000 for not planning anyway. That was that was one project.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=718.0,811.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, were you simultaneously working in Stuart's office and doing your public relations? Was there ever any conflict of interest problem that arose there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=812.0,822.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was, there could have been, it's not, it's not an arrangement that I would particularly recommend wouldn't even be legal now, but there wasn't any, I didn't, I didn't experience any conflict of interest?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=823.0,841.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were you effectively Stewart's district representative? Oh, I was okay, that's, that's what it was now. Were you the only person here or in Tucson?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=842.0,851.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, at that time. No, come to think of it, I believe, I believe we did eventually hire a secretary who who also was on the congressional staff. I think perhaps that was only during the months of the year when Stuart was in town, because in those days, Congress would adjourn, generally in August or early September, and then Stuart and his family would move back to Tucson for the fall months. And so we did. We, it seems to me, we did employ a Secretary. Secretary","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=852.0,895.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: also, how had you come to know Stuart?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=896.0,901.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I was active in an organization called the Tucson council for civic unity, and I was recruited to that organization by a mutual friend of ours, Mac Wright, who also was a law partner of Frank Berry. Mac had persuaded me to join the organization. Mac was the president at the time. The immediate past president was Stuart in Yeah, so I that's how I got acquainted with Stuart, and then when he decided to run for Congress, he invited me and many other friends out and enlisted us to help in the campaign, and I did help in the campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=902.0,962.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So you worked in that first campaign, in every campaign thereafter, right? I noticed that that the office, was it that Stewart's district office was at 222 North court? Was that the same building, or near the same building, as the Udall and Udall law firm,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=963.0,979.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it was across the street. Okay. Yes, it was. It was across the street. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=980.0,987.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: thought the the address sounded somewhat familiar. Yeah, right. In 1960 Stuart was involved in organizing delegates for the John F Kennedy presidential campaign. Did you help Stewart in that effort.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=988.0,1003.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I can't recall that there was anything, any particular role that I played on that I remember the time pretty well, but I can't recall any particular, any particular task that he assigned to me on that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1004.0,1022.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1960 of course, Kennedy was elected, and in 1961 Stewart was appointed to the cabinet as interior secretary, Morris Udall then then ran in a special election to succeed Stuart, and won by, I think it was something like 3000 votes. It was very narrow margin against Republican Mac Matheson. Well, first Had you met mo by that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1023.0,1053.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, yes, in fact, I had had, I had had the an office, a congressional office, for a time, in Mo's, in Mo's building, the building you don't law firm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1054.0,1078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And when you say you do you mean, you're, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1079.0,1081.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: mean, just the congressional just my function as a congressional representative, Stuart Udall, had an office in the Udall and Udall building for a while, and eventually I moved that, moved it out and made other arrangements. But anyway, I had, I had contact with Mo during, during that time, and and from and in other, in other connections I had, I had contact with him, and then mo had used my services as a public relations firm on at least three occasions. First of all, he he asked me to assemble a part of the case for the establishment of a of a new bank for Tucson. It was called the Bank of Tucson. So I, I, I gathered together all kinds of information about the population of Tucson, the economy of Tucson, this and that, the other thing, and prepared the larger volume of material which he used in submitting the application. And we were successful in that. And then later he asked me to do the same thing for the Catalina savings and loan association. And so those are two, two things in which he and I worked together. And then the the last thing before I became involved in his campaign was the so called Modern courts initiative of which he was the chairman. And I, I handled the statewide advertising on that campaign and in the during the time that we were waiting to see whether Stuart would be appointed secretary, or maybe just after he'd been appointed, I'm not sure. Moe came to my office one day to settle up on the modern courts financing. And He came in and I said, Mo, I've got an idea. Sit down. I said, I've been, I've been wondering about who, who we could nominate, who the Democrats could nominate, to replace Stewart. And I said, you know Harry Ackerman is interested. Don Hamel is interested. You know somebody else? I'm not sure that we can elect those guys, but it just occurred to me there is one person we could elect, and that's you. Well, thank you, Dick. He said, My wife and I were just talking about that last night. Had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1082.0,1274.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you been aware that that he had wanted to run for Congress when Stewart ran yes and deferred to Stuart instead, I was very much aware of that Yes. Did that create any hard feelings between them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1275.0,1290.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think it did. I think it did create kind of a strain. And I don't know whether it was so much between mole and Stuart, you know, as it was between, between Pat and Stuart, I think, well, let me think about it, back in 54 when Porky Patton decided he would not run for re election, he was the, he was the congressman from the second district before Stewart ran right and the second district at that time was all of Arizona except Maricopa County. It was, we said it was a donut history, and so it was an opportunity, and furthermore, it had been held by a Democrat. So I mean, conceivably, it could go to another Democrat. But, and at the time Mo was, I think Mo was interested. I think his family thought that he would be the logical one to run, because he was, he was county attorney, that's right, he'd held office. He was well known. He was very popular.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1291.0,1382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And and I think that he would have except that Pat didn't want to go to Washington and persuaded him that he should run for Judge instead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1383.0,1399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This was when he ran for superior court. So he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1400.0,1402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: ran for the Superior Court, and of course, that ended up being a disaster because of this Fluke on the voting machines,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1403.0,1409.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1410.0,1411.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1412.0,1418.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so, so. So it was more a matter of, do you think not deferring to Stuart as much as the older brother and all as deferring to Pat's wishes?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1419.0,1429.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, yes, no, in fact, in fact, I think as far as ambition is concerned, at that point, I think Stuart probably had had more ambition than than mo did more eagerness to be elected to national office. But it was, it was kind of odd that the one who had absolutely no experience in public office would be the one to run, and the one who did have the experience did not","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1430.0,1470.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what Stuart was on the amphitheater school board at that time, wasn't he before he ran? Yes, that's true. It's not equivalent","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1471.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to county attorney exactly, a very prominent position, and I'd forgotten about that. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1481.0,1486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you sense over the your years with Mo any any rivalry between them, brotherly rivalry, or I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1487.0,1499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I can't say that I did. I mean, I've spent a great deal of time with each of them, and I've never heard Moe say anything negative about Stuart and yes and and I certainly have never heard Stuart say anything negative about mole. Now that doesn't mean that that there wasn't some rivalry, and that may reflect more their nature of my relationship with each of them. They wouldn't you know that they would recognize that that would present a problem to me, if they were to say something negative about the other guy, but I think there might have been some kind of a subconscious rivalry, but, but nothing, nothing, very, nothing, very serious.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1500.0,1566.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The funny thing is, what they call each other. You know, Moe calls Stewarts too. I call him Stuart. Stewart calls Moe Morris. I call him Moe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1567.0,1586.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I've noticed in in the interviews that I've done so far, the people who knew Moe in college, in early years, or in law school, Charles Ayers, Tom Chandler, Jim McNulty, even call him Morris, yes. And it seems like after he came to Washington, was when everyone started calling him Moe. And I only really made that association while doing these interviews.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1587.0,1619.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Incidentally, the the first campaign button that I made for Mo was in very non traditional colors. It was brown on beige or something like that. It was just a little button, and it just had the letters M, O, and, of course, turn it upside down, says Ow. But it was a very decorous campaign button and, and I remember people would look at that button and say, what's that? Now? Later, later, the name Mo. I mean mo, mo preempted the name Mo. I mean, in Arizona, you say Mo, anybody, anybody would say, well, you mean mo Udo. But it may be that that was the beginning","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1620.0,1679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: of its popular use, yeah, I have one of those buttons. Or do you? I have one of those, and to use the same type, when he ran for either speaker the house or majority leader, I think he had a small mo button, which, when he lost, he flipped around and it broke out. Right? Yeah. On Mo's first campaign. Did you work on that campaign?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1680.0,1707.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, I did. There were on one level, the people involved were, were myself Roger and Dick Schweitzer on another level, the the more formal level, the radio and television side of the campaign was was handled by Pete tufts and the newspaper and and print side of the campaign was handled by me and bill boards and so on. I took care of those, uh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1708.0,1762.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I remember the when we were deciding on the slogan for the campaign that we came up with this funny one big job, big man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1763.0,1781.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And I remember I had some reservations. I was kind of too cute. But anyway, we did, we went with it. And so I was, I was very much involved in that campaign. And then on on election night, I was the one who was reported. Starting to mow on the the votes as they were coming in and and, you know, we just couldn't believe it. Why","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1782.0,1807.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was it so close? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1808.0,1811.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we learned. We learned a big lesson about special elections, and what we learned was later carried out in many other special elections, and that is that in a special election, you lose much of the advantage that you would normally have being a part of the majority party, because the only people who are going to show up at the polls are the people who are motivated by interest in your particular race, whereas in a general election, you're going to pick up the votes of people who are brought there in their interest in the RE elect the sheriff or the governor or somebody else in your party, and so that reduces the advantage of the of the majority party and and we, the Democratic Party, was in the majority at the time, But in that special election, much of that disappeared. It came back in the next election. Who","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1812.0,1884.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was Mac Matheson.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1885.0,1889.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He was not anybody who had ever held office. He was a quite conservative, private businessman of some kind. I can't remember. I can't remember what he what he did. I will, I will tell you one little story. However, during this time, I was the chairman of the the Human Relations Commission of the city of Tucson, and so I was in the news a lot in that capacity. For example, when, when a requirement was imposed on all public employees, including including Non, non paid public employees, like members of commissions, that they must sign a loyalty oath. I uh, I, I was in the paper defending members of the Commission who refused to do so, and I signed the damn thing only, only it in order to be able to defend the others who didn't. But anyway, I was, I was in the news. I'm well known and and so one night during the campaign, Matheson at a perhaps it was a debate that we were having, made a made a state, made a joke about Washington, saying that it was 60% chocolate and 40% nuts. So I wrote a letter to the editor of the star, calling everybody's attention to this remark, and what it what it said about his views on race and and that that letter, letter, I didn't sign it as chairman of the Human Relations Commission, but my name was known in that context. The star ran that letter. Letter is the number one letter on the on the editorial page or op ed page on Easter morning of 1961 and when I got home from church, had a phone call from Matheson saying, Oh, He didn't mean that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=1890.0,2060.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Funny now people say things they don't mean it was. Do you happen to recall if George Miller, who is currently mayor of Tucson, was involved in in the loyalty oath thing at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2061.0,2074.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, I don't remember that. Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2075.0,2078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now how did Roger Lewis get involved in that early campaign? As","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2079.0,2085.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I recall, I mean, I meant to ask my friend Oren Beatty about this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2086.0,2092.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oren was administrative assistant to to Stuart bull. In Congress and and at the Interior Department. And as I recall, Moe asks asked Stewart to suggest somebody who could work on the campaign, and I think Oren recommended Roger because Oren had worked with Roger on the Republic. Now that's my recollection, and I remember that either Stewart or Oren asked me about Roger and whether I thought he would be good for that, and I and I recommended them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2093.0,2149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, didn't you mention to me that that Roger was once a student of yours? Yes, he had been. This was when you taught some at the university journalism department. Yes. Was this when you worked on the citizen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2150.0,2163.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, yes. It was a part time teaching job that I had while I was working for the citizen for two years, from 71 to, I mean, 51 healthy years, 51 to 53","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2164.0,2179.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay? And, and Roger had worked on the Arizona Republic, then, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2180.0,2184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: after he, after he left the university, he got a job at the Republic,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2185.0,2188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and then went from the Republic to Mo's office, because after, after Mo's election, Roger went back to Washington to work as his AA, did he not? Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2189.0,2203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Initially, he was hired to help with the campaign, but then, as once the campaign was over, Mo offered him the job of administrative assistant in Washington,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2204.0,2222.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: who else worked for Moe during that time, I noticed in the in the staff list, list of all the staff members for Moe through through the years, that that first, that first year or two, has Roger. Only is that your recollection that first, first year or two Yes, right after the special election, before the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2223.0,2246.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: Oh for, I guess, would have been a year, actually, that even","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2247.0,2253.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Shortly after mo had had offered roger that position. I, I told mo that I might be interested in in going to Washington. He said that it hadn't occurred to him that I might want to know Leave, leave my my business and do that. But he, he then decided that that he would, he would have Roger and me function jointly as as administrative assistant. However, there wasn't a slot on the staff at that moment because Fritz Kessinger was was continuing during the interim, when, when there wasn't a congressman, during the from the time that Stuart resigned until, until mo took over and he was injured, had been working, been holding down the office and and he was continuing for a while on Moe's staff. So Moe then, I think, perhaps helped Fritz find a position with Senator Hayden, and that created a slot. So he, then I, then I then came to Washington in late August of 71 actually went on the payroll on September 1 of 1961 of 61 I'm sorry, 61","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2254.0,2360.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, so, so, so there was just a very short time in there. Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2361.0,2366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it was about three months between the between the special election and and my arrival. I arrived around the, you know, the 20th or so of August in Washington, in Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2367.0,2388.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And during that three month period, I. Moe had cast a vote against foreign aid, and I was just appalled. And Roger explained it to me that they'd gotten 100 telegrams from all over the state","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2389.0,2420.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: from the John Birch Society. And Moe decided that while he personally favored the bill that he had to represent these people, and therefore he voted against this foreign aid bill. Well, I was just absolutely horrified, and so I, I set out to to create some material that we could use in answering mail on the subject of foreign aid. And I, I I started writing, and then I wrote some more, and then I wrote some more, and then I and then I, I found conservatives who supported, supported foreign aid, like the colonist George sokolski and so on, and Richard Nixon and I create. I created a 13 page document which, which I intended to be just an enclosure with, with a reply to somebody who wrote us on the subject foreign aid. And mo decided to send it out as a newsletter. And so that was our first newsletter. Oh, it was, it was mimeographed, and at the time, we had a mailing list of about 6000 or so. Roger had been building up a mailing list from various sources. And so that was about what it was. Well, I had, I had gone to Washington with the intention of being there just, just a couple of months, because I had things to finish up back in Tucson and so on. So after having created this monster, this 13 page newsletter, I then left town, and the rest of the staff had to collate 13 pages, 6000 copies or something. It was a horrendous task. But anyway, did it change","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2421.0,2555.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: mind? On, on, on, on supporting foreign","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2556.0,2560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: aid. It was, it was, it was a case for supporting foreign aid. And so then when I came back in January, we all came back. So the meantime, Mo had also been on in Tucson. I uh, we we address the question of what to do about newsletters. What? What kind of a newsletter did we want to put out? And Roger argued for short, snappy, topical things like names of people who visited the office and so on, and and I argued for for major, you know, doctoral dissertation types, and we characterize our two views as as the New York Daily News and The New York Times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2561.0,2634.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm going to stop this right here and flip it because I don't want to cut off in the middle of newsletters, so hold on you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305#t=2635.0,2637.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270305/transcript/78624/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/624/original/azu_ms396-029_side1_a.vtt?1744914197","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/624/original/azu_ms396-029_side1_a.vtt?1744914197"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 5 - azu_ms396-029_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2659.968,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/306/original/azu_ms396-029_side2_a.mp3?1744847849","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2659.968,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So mo, mo agreed with me, and so we then proceeded to write long, sort of scholarly on serious subjects. Now, one of the one of the arguments that that Roger had made and other people made, was that we're most people aren't going to read these things. They're too long. They're on subjects they're not interested in and the newspapers aren't going to do anything with them. They're just two verbose my argument was to first of all acknowledge probably most people wouldn't read them, but I said Nevertheless, some people will read them, and those who don't read them will at least be aware that their congressman really works at this job, that he looks very thoroughly at every question that came comes along, and that he is very fair in in, in the judgments that he exercises. And I think that that is what, what came across. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2.0,89.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was pretty unusual, wasn't it, to have to have that sort of comprehensive newsletter. Then,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=90.0,96.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yes, it was there. There have been only one or two people prior to that who had done anything similar. One was Clem Miller of California, who was a great congressman, very thoughtful, very intelligent, who made the mistake of pushing on for a campaign stop about 1962 and flying in, a fly in a private plane crashed and was killed, and, incidentally, was replaced in a special election by a Republican. Pardon me. Oh So anyway, Clem Miller was one who had done something similar, and we were aware of that, and I think that I cited that as a as a precedent for what we wanted to do, but I don't know. I mean, even even clown did not go to the lengths that we did in exploring things so thoroughly. I mean, for example, having a whole series of newsletters on some topic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=97.0,183.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Who actually wrote those newsletters? Mo and I and and they were edited also by you, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=184.0,192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: the final editing was done by me. How","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=193.0,195.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did it work? Did you? Did you do an initial draft and then give it to mo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=196.0,199.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: most of the time, Mo did an original draft. Did an initial draft, and I would then embellish it and polish it. Once in a while, I would do the original draft, for example, the one on nuclear disarmament or on the on the arms race, was one that Irish needed. But I'd say that most of the time the original draft was done by moe,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=200.0,239.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and then in later years, as I understand, there was something like 80 newsletters. And in later years, something like 23 or so were were compiled into a book the education of a congressman, which I find still very instructive on a lot of these issues in let me just ask you one more question before we sort of get back to the chronological thing it it brings up, brings up something I've wondered about when you mentioned the the foreign aid issue and how Moe voted based on what his constituents had written him. I remember when I worked for him. I remember a conversation we once had where he was saying, you know, a congressman is sort of torn between, who do they represent their state or their nation, and particularly, are they elected by the. Constituents to vote their conscience, or to vote their constituents conscience. And I certainly had the distinct feeling that at that time that he was saying, that he pretty strongly felt that a representative was elected to vote their own conscience. And yet, I hear you mention this about the foreign aid. And I also have to look at the issue of gun control. Moe seemed, as I understand it, Mo was personally very against or for gun control, I should say. And and yet his constituents, it's Arizona, after all, the West,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=240.0,341.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yes, I think that that there were, there were a handful of cases where, where he, he felt that he had to, he had to vote away differently than he personally preferred. And incidentally, one of the one of the functions of the of the newsletters was to educate the constituency so that we could do what we wanted to do, you know, and and that really, that really was the primary purpose of it, to to create a constituency for ourselves, that that we felt would allow us to to the vote, to you, to use the best judgment that we had, now say we. That's pretty presumptuous on my part to say we, because Mo is the one who did the voting, but, but I was certainly a part of that process, and sometimes took him to task.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=342.0,422.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: What issues can you think of, besides gun control, where he he went away, other than his conscience,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=423.0,431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 14 B, Section 14 B of the Taft Hartley Act, the attempt in 1964 to repeal it is this the right, and thus to to invalidate all of the right to work laws in the 17 states. And that, that was a very, very tough one for Moe, both personally and politically. He was not in favor of right to work laws, but in Arizona, we'd had three statewide votes on the subject referenda or initiative one or the other, and on each successive vote, a larger margin had had prevailed in support of right to work, and that not only was the case in the state as a whole, it was also the case in Our congressional district. So for him to have voted for to repeal 14 B would have been to to oppose the the express views of our own constituents, three success at times, and he simply couldn't do it. Now, at the time, he was the he was the whip for the Democratic study group, and so it was his job to get votes for for the bill on The floor, and he actually voted for the rule, but, and not only that, but he succeeded, or the Democratic Party succeeded in, in in in passing repeal in the house. But it's one of the, one of the many, many things that irritate me about Lyndon Johnson, that that he, he forced the the Democrats in the House to walk the plank on 14 B knowing that there was not a chance that that could pass the Senate. And so there were, there were Democrats who who suffered the consequences in the next election. In fact, we lost 25 Democrats in the 66 election, and Mo, Mo Udall could have been one of them. So I had no quarrel with Mo in voting the way he did. And. It incenses me today. I mean, to this day that George meany held it against him from that day forward, is that right? Right? And worked against him when he was running for majority leader,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=432.0,614.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: based on that one, based on that, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=615.0,619.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it tells you something about the labor labor movement that you know you'd rather not know. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=620.0,626.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: let's, let's go back to 1962 and Moe was re elected in 1962 defeating Richard Burke by 56% were did you manage that campaign? Do you remember anything about Richard Burke?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=627.0,646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I remember he was, he was, he was a good candidate. And you know, an indication that the Republican Party now sensed that they could win that seat. And so they put up a serious candidate. I mean, he was, he was a quality candidate. And fortunately, they did not prevail, but, but it was, he was a good candidate now his his campaign manager was Conrad Joyner, oh, and early in the campaign, before I got out to Arizona, he or somebody, you know, somebody else on the Burke campaign, had been in contact with our office about setting up a debate, and nothing had nothing had come of it. And this person got the idea that we were, we were resisting debates. So about the time I got out to Tucson for the campaign, it was usually in August that I went out. I I had I had a I got word that that they were getting very upset. And so I called Conrad, and I said, Conrad, let me make clear, we're perfectly willing to debate Dick Burke, no problem about that, but we're not going to do it on just every street corner. I mean, if we're going to do a debate, we want to have a real audience, have it worth the candidates time? Conrad said, I couldn't agree more. So we worked out plans for a debate at the Tucson High School auditorium with television cameras and the whole works and and then I think we had about three other debates, all in proper settings. And it was, it was a gentleman's campaign, and on election night, Conrad called me and congratulated me, and we became good friends. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=647.0,800.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: an interesting, interesting story. Let's see, in that first year that you worked on in Mo's office,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=801.0,818.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: can you give me an idea just for sort of a reference for later, what your first impressions were about Mo's relationship with his staff, his work style and ethic, his approach to issues, his relationship with colleagues, sort of a lot. Maybe we ought to start out with his relationship with his staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=819.0,843.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In those he's always good. He he was some who, someone who, who knew the value of delegating. He delegated authority to Roger and me to run that office and and never, never interfered with with decisions that we made, people that we hired, or anything. I mean, I think Roger and I certainly always had just the best possible relationship with Mo. He was, he was just a great guy to work for. And he, he. Uh, he was very, very hard working. He'd get to the office before we did in the morning. In fact, we our only complaint was that he'd open the mail before we got there, and and and he would leave this mess. He'd just tear up the envelopes and lay the sheets of paper here and there and everything. Whereas we like to have a system, a systematic way of opening them. I remember one, one morning came in. He had, he and I had, had just written a newsletter about the budget, on analyzing the analyzing the federal budget, and showing that there's very little money that that anybody would argue about, that most of it would have to go to things that we're all in agreement with, you know? And so we had it had just been on the press the day before. It hadn't yet been mailed out. And here was a letter in my typewriter from President Kennedy commanding Moe on this outstanding letter. He says the rest of the Democrats ought to have something like this. And Moe had stuck. Moe had been in already. He'd already opened the mail. He'd gotten, seen this letter from Kennedy, put it in my typewriter, and then gone off somewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=844.0,998.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: What? What was your relationship with Roger? Wasn't this sort of an unusual situation where you basically shared a job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=999.0,1006.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, it was, it was, I think we had the, the only partnership on Capitol Hill. I don't know of another case of an office that was run by by a partnership, but Roger and I jointly, jointly ran that office, made all decisions about, for example, such decisions as whether to whether to bid for a different office after there's been An election, who to hire and so on and and then we also divided our responsibilities. I mean, he he handled certain things, I handled other things. But anyway, he and I had just a very nice partnership relationship for nine and a half years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1007.0,1061.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Who was secretary? Then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1062.0,1067.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: most secretary? Yes, Louise Greenfield was, I'm pretty sure that she was, she was our most first secretary. Now, actually, we hired her to replace Bob reveles. Bob reveles briefly, briefly served as Noah's secretary. Bob had been in the army. He'd learned shorthand and and was able to take dictation. And so he, he filled that role for a while, and then, and then Bob got a better paying job. If I No, I'm not, I'm a little bit hazy on that he Bob was going to Georgetown University at some point, and then eventually he went to work for Frank Thompson, Congressman, Frank Thompson. So I'm a little bit hazy on all that, but I do remember that when I first arrived, Bob was was still on that job, and I think we hired Louise probably before the well, might have been in 62 I mean, probably, probably was 62 before we hired Louise.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1068.0,1152.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Am I correct that Moe took shorthand?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1153.0,1156.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, Mo does take shorthand. Shorthand, yeah. I can't remember how it was that he had learned it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1157.0,1165.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I seem to recall him saying he learned it in law school in order to to get through law school. But I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1166.0,1173.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, it's possible I myself had intended to take shorthand when I was in the Navy, but then I was reassigned, and as I never did, and I got a new rating so I didn't have to know shorthand, but I came close to it, and I wish I had, because, as it is, as a reporter later, it would have been so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1174.0,1194.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: nice to have. Well, that's, that's, you know, it seems to me, I either heard that or each. Told me that that he learned it for law school, and had found it very useful since in 1964 Moe was re elected again, defeating William Kimball, who was an attorney in Tucson by 59% did you manage that campaign as well? Yes, did, did? Did Roger work on any of these campaigns? No, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1195.0,1230.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: generally, you know, we'd, we'd have him come out for the last few weeks of the campaign just to be there, maybe attend some things, but he didn't plan the campaign or really handle it, handle any of the details of the campaign, he continued to operate the Washington office while we were while you came out here politics, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1231.0,1256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: what Do you remember about the the William Kimball campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1257.0,1262.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, once again, they put up a very good candidate, and that was the last, the last strong candidate that they put up for a while. I think when we, when we defeated Kimball, the way the Republicans kind of gave up on, I mean, the the, the the the main, the main line of the Republican Party, kind of gave up on this race for a while, and then they got much less attractive candidates after that. But Kimble was a, was a good, solid candidate. And I don't remember much about it, except I remember he had a couple of nice young fellows handling his campaign. They had a, seems to me, they had a public relations business, Pete somebody. And anyway, they're nice guys. And once again, it was, it was a it was a decent campaign, no mud slinging or anything.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1263.0,1329.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Tom Chandler said in his oral history that he related a story where in one of the early campaigns, a couple of of Mo's workers had been arrested. Do you remember that at all? Arrested, arrested, yes. Do you remember that at all? It was something I don't, I'm sorry, I don't remember the details. But something about I can't, I can't even recall","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1330.0,1357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: the only, the only thing that stirs in my mind at all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1358.0,1372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: has to do with fellow named Ted Heil. His last name is H, E, y, l, who we who we hired for a time to be in the district office, and he got into some kind of trouble. I don't remember what it was, but this may not relate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1373.0,1395.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to No, this was a campaign thing, and it sounded like it was just one of, one of those things that people didn't realize was illegal. I think maybe they had even, like, put a sign on private property or something. Wasn't anything major, but apparently they got in trouble, and he still laughs about it, and I just remember wondered if you'd remembered anything like that. No, I don't. Maybe they never told you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1396.0,1418.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah, I have no idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1419.0,1423.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The same year 1964 Moe was floor whip for the civil for civil rights legislation. Did you work on that? What can you do? Recall what the legislation was?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1424.0,1438.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, well, I was a Civil Rights Act of 64 you know, the preceding year, Martin Luther King had had his march on Washington. I myself participated in it, and went down to Lincoln Memorial, heard him speak,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1439.0,1458.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and and Mo led that bill on the floor, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1459.0,1465.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo was just just one, just one sponsor of that. The, I think that the, I mean, first of all, it came out of the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1466.0,1485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Judiciary Committee. Manny seller would have been the, would have been the principal sponsor. I think I. Uh, but Mo was the Mo was the was the whip of the Democratic study group at that time, I'm quite sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1486.0,1511.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And I ran the whip system for for him, so I had a, you know, like a tree of names to call. You start out calling five people, they call five people and so on. And the purpose was to get votes to the floor in time to affect the outcome on teller votes, principally on roll call votes, not you have 15 minutes to get over there. It's not such problem. But on roll call votes didn't, and I mean on teller votes, and so we had the whip system to get northern and western Democrats to the floor in support of desirable amendments and to defeat undesirable ones. There is a there is a supreme irony in the positions taken by the liberals and conservatives and the Democratic Party on one amendment, the Women's Rights Amendment. It was offered by none other than the then judge Smith, the chairman of the Rules Committee, on behalf of the Southerners, to so mess up the bill that it would be defeated on final passage. Is that right? And so the southerners voted for women's rights, and the northerners voted against women's rights. Isn't that interesting, and because it was thought by everyone that this would make final passage impossible, and because they called it at a time when the whip system wasn't working and so on, they won, and we added sex to the list of characteristics that can't discriminate against. That's fascinating. It really is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1512.0,1662.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It really is. Now around the same period, also, I believe 64 the Home Rule District of Columbia. Home Rule issue was was up again, and Mo apparently sponsored a bill that would establish an office of delegate within the House of Representatives and provide for the election of that delegate. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1663.0,1684.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think that was after the crucial vote which was on Home Rule. Oh, do you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1685.0,1691.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think that came after? Because the home the Home Rule case itself, as I understand in 65 at least, failed for the fir for the fifth time since 1949","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1692.0,1706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I just came across something yesterday looking through My papers on that very subject. And I'll I'll just I'll check this out on the sea, on the sequence, but, but, but I can, I can speak with some authority on on the Home Rule vote as it occurred on the House floor. This was another of the of the initiatives that came from the White House. It was Lyndon Johnson wanting to take care of that that part of his constituency for the 64 election. I mean, we got him the Vietnam War for another part of that constituency, but he got most of the members of the Texas delegation to sign a discharge petition, because the rules committee would not release a bill in the regular order for consideration of Home Rule. And so this is a very, very difficult and restricted procedure. Year discharge petition, but with with the Johnson's arm twisting, the signatures were obtained for a discharge petition to bring the Home Rule bill to the House floor. Well, unlike other measures that come to the floor, a discharge petition","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1707.0,1827.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: cannot be amended. It's subject to an up or down vote. And judge Smith, who was vehemently opposed to Home Rule, offered a substitute. Oh, there can be only one vote, but there can be a substitute. He offered a substitute","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1828.0,1862.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: if the substitute were defeated, that'd be it. So suddenly the house was presented with with this, this difficult question of accepting judge Smith's version of Home Rule, or no home rule at all. And so mold then, in his capacity as as as DSG whip, and in his capacity as by that time, a recognized leader had to get up and urged his member urges colleagues to vote for the Smith substitute. And so that was the bill that passed, but it, it left much, you know, much unhappiness and so on. I think, as I recall then mo, mo offered this, this delegate bill to to provide something, something more for the District of Columbia. Why","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1863.0,1938.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: has Home Rule been so difficult to get through the Congress. The Senate, I gather, has passed it several times, but it apparently can't seem to get through the house. Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1939.0,1960.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, I think that it is combination of of anti black feeling on the part of on the part of not only southern conservatives, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1961.0,1979.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: some northern conservatives and anti anti federal government bias, anti Washington bias, and so the city of Washington is, becomes the, the symbol of everything, everything that's bad about the federal government. Do you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=1980.0,2013.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think this is Congressman following their constituents desire to not have home rule?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2014.0,2018.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, I don't think so. I don't really think, well, it could be in the case of Southerners, the the feelings against, I mean recognition that this is, this is a black majority city. There's, there's, there's that element. And then I think there is also legitimate concern about the interests of the federal government, that they be protected, that that public places, the mall, government buildings, government parks and so on, be under the control of of the Congress rather than the local government. I don't know. I haven't really analyzed it too. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2019.0,2078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thoroughly it just interests me. Also, in 1965 Mo, also, as I understand it, proposed amending the constitution to provide a four year term for members of the House of Representatives. This, I believe, was a measure also. Proposed by by President Johnson, were you involved? Obviously, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2079.0,2104.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I was involved in that. Mo testified before a a joint, a joint committee of the of the House and Senate on reorganization of the Congress. And he and I drafted a statement which he read. One of the one of the arguments we made was that that most people are unaware that congressional terms are only two years. You can you can ask an educated person, a college graduate, who you, who you happen to meet on the street, about service in Congress, he won't really know that it's just two years. And oftentimes people will say, Are you up this time? The answer is, I'm up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2105.0,2172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: every time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2173.0,2175.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And so anyway, we made the case for that. I think it's a difficult case to make, and it's and and there are plenty of, plenty of good arguments against it. But anyway, yes, he, he did. He did come up with such a proposal,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2176.0,2199.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: also in 65 seems to have been a big year. 65 the fight for the Central Arizona Project began,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2200.0,2209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yes, well, I guess that was the year that the Supreme Court handed down its decision the Arizona Colorado or right? Arizona versus Colorado took 12 years. The decision took 12 years. Yes, yes, there was the court appointed a special master who then did all of the difficult research and study and reading of briefs and so on and back and forth to come to the conclusion that Arizona was entitled to 4.4 million acre feet of water a year out of the Colorado River. So it was a big victory. But it then presented just a monumental political task in getting the votes in Congress, especially from the big California delegation, to take their water and to pay for a project, enabling us to use. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2210.0,2282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: didn't sit well, huh? Both sort of got off on the wrong side of environmentalists in this issue by supporting two dams in the Grand Canyon. Oh yes, I think he later, later dropped that support. But didn't this create sort of an ideological conflict with faux","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2283.0,2304.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh yes, but he did. He did just as much as he could to rationalize it. And I've heard this speech of his many times which he delivered back in the in the days before the dams were dropped, the Bureau of Reclamation had prepared this, this marvelous, three dimensional model of the Grand Canyon showing what portion of the Grand Canyon, which I put with quotes around it was was flooded. Now the Grand Canyon, at that time, Grand Canyon National Park, was not as large as it is today, and it did not include bridge Canyon, and it did not include Marble Canyon, it was that portion of the Colorado River Between Marble Canyon and bridge Canyon. So this model showed bridge Canyon flooded, but that was outside the park, and then it showed just a few miles of a very low level of flooding at one end of the park itself. Yeah, so Mo, when he had, when he had that three dimensional model, would point to this out. But when he didn't have the model, he would, he would nevertheless pointed out in this way he would, he would say that that let us, let us suppose that this big room, whatever it is, is Grand Canyon and let's say that we have built bridge Canyon Dam. How much of this room is going to be flooded by that dam, by that lake? And so then he would, he would go over to the corner of the room and put his, put his hand about a foot above, above the floor, and so many feet in from the corner, and say, That's as much water as would invade the park. So it was, it was a very good argument. It seemed. It seemed to to just justify was justify what we were proposing to do. Now this didn't address, uh, bridge Canyon at all, but bridge Canyon was, I mean, Marble Canyon, but that was outside of the park as then constituted. So that was a separate issue. Later years, you know, it might just go on to say that years later, Mo and Barry Goldwater sponsored, sponsored legislation to add Marvel Canyon and bridge Canyon to the park.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2305.0,2492.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's That's interesting, as I understand it. Mo and and Sierra Club's David Brower debated this issue of of the bridges before an audience of national press corps at the on the rim of the Grand Canyon. Yes, that's right. Were you present for that? No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2493.0,2519.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I didn't go out there for that, but I prepared him for it, did you? Yeah, not that he required much preparing on that. I mean, he already had a set speech, I mean, but anyway, we strategized about it. And by the way, that the Bureau of Reclamation delivered that model out to that, out to that site at Grand Canyon?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2520.0,2545.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, there was prior to that. I think it was prior to that the Sierra Club had had published a book about Grand Canyon as part of the case against our project, and they and so when we received the book, I looked at it, I said, Well, we're going to have To, we're gonna have to respond to this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2546.0,2582.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I said, Let me, let me, let me, let me write it. Write a speech for you to answer this. And he said, fine. So I, I felt that we had, we had to do something that day. So, so I sat down and I started writing and and we had a secretary named Angie, who who would do the final typing for me. I wrote things out, and then she did type it up nice and clean. And so I, I gave the first five copies of first pages, first five pages of that speech to Mo. And he looked at he said, it looks fine. So I just kept on I kept on writing. I wrote 5000 words, and we put it in the congressional record that night, the next morning, almost said, deck, let me, let me see my speech. But anyway, it was that speech, then was published in the Arizona Republic. It was published in the various various places, and it became one of our, one of our, our weapons in the in the fight with the Sierra Club.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2583.0,2651.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I need to switch the tape over one more time. What's that? I need to turn the tape over now. Why do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306#t=2652.0,2654.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270306/transcript/78625/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/625/original/azu_ms396-029_side2_a.vtt?1744914222","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/625/original/azu_ms396-029_side2_a.vtt?1744914222"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 5 - azu_ms396-030_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2604.168,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/307/original/azu_ms396-030_side1_a.mp3?1744847852","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2604.168,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, we're back on again, all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=0.0,3.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now I think that that the that speech in 67 did contribute to the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=4.0,15.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: raft trip with 1010, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=16.0,18.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: didn't, you didn't get to go on. Oh, 10. No","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=19.0,21.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: fun.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=22.0,25.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I did mention or beat you a while ago. He went on on one of those trips and and he he leaned the wrong way. Sometime he ended up getting getting banged up. I think they had to take him away in a helicopter, really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=26.0,44.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh dear. Did mo ever express to you any regret about the CA P project there a lot of a lot of things have come out about the cap project in much more recent years, and especially in Tucson. And I realize you probably don't have the benefit of of knowing much about that, but I'm just curious as if, if from the Virginia and DC perspective, if mo ever expressed any regret or about his participation, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=45.0,83.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I don't think that he he Ever specifically stated","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=84.0,94.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: any reservations about it. Of course, it's really in more recent years than than I was with him, that that one would would realize that it wasn't such a great idea at the time that I left. It was just just a couple of years, two and a half years or so after passage of the of the bill, and had long ways to go before we see the consequences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=95.0,134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think mo always felt that he was he was doing what, what the people of Arizona wanted him to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=135.0,151.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm sure that he always had reservations about the dams. Always had reservations about even the cost of the project, and in particular the spending all that money just to enable a handful of well to do farmers to get cheaper water. We always felt that in the end, the water would be needed by the metropolitan areas of Phoenix and Tucson, and that ultimately the role of farming would would would decline. But I just can't to answer your question. I can't recall his ever specifically stating that he regretted having done that. Let me","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=152.0,210.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: also in 1965 Pat Udall Mo's first wife asked for a divorce. Were you aware of that at the time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=211.0,226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: No, I wasn't aware of any, any serious difficulties between them. I did know that, that she did not like politics, did not like Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=227.0,247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: You had said earlier that, that she didn't want to, didn't want mo to run for Congress when Stewart ran, because she didn't want to go to Washington. I wonder what changed her mind when he ran again, or she, well, she,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=248.0,262.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you know, in in 62 she got kind of interested in the campaign, and she worked with me quite a bit, and, and, and sort of got into the spirit of it. However, in some time in 63","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=263.0,297.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: she. Uh, acquired rheumatoid arthritis and became or joints were swollen and and it was becoming difficult for her to just go about everyday life, and Mullen Pat had moved from one house to another in Cleveland Park, and they briefly wondered how she was going to get up and down this flight of stairs. There was a long stairway and and Pat asked me to look into elevators, and I looked into the kind of elevator that you see that travels up and down a stairway. But after, after I got the prices and found out about that, she said, Oh, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I think, first of all, it is, it is assumed by many people in the medical profession that that rheumatoid arthritis is psychosomatic, that it's a result of emotions, whether or not that's true, I don't know, but could have been and and I don't I haven't seen Pat but, but once in recent years, she didn't appear to be arthritic. She appears to be all right. So it could very well be that that her, that her, her arthritis, was a reaction to the emotional conflict that she was going through. So anyway, she felt that she that she was better off in the Arizona climate instead of this damp climate back here. And so she, she began, she she moved back to Tucson, and was living out there during the winter months of of 6364 well, actually she was still here in November of 63 because I remember being over at their house after Jack Kennedy was shot. But probably early in, early in 64 she had gone, decided to to stay in Tucson,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=298.0,485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and did the children stay with her? And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=486.0,489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah, so the children were with her. I can't remember what, just whether that was a permanent decision or temporary one or what, but she was living in Tucson, and about this time, Barry Goldwater was then emerging as a possible candidate for the Republicans, and it struck me that if, if that's the case, he can't possibly run for the Senate and president, President, same time, he's going to have to resign. And if so, there will be, there'll be a special election. It might be an opportunity for a Democrat. And so I mentioned it to Mo. He said, Well, I can't talk about that right now. And then a few days later, I mentioned it again, and he said, Well, I got to discuss it with my wife. And then one day, the phone rang, and was for Mo, but I answered it and and the lady on the other end told the operator, I'll talk to this gentleman. And so was Pat. And she said, I understand you're trying to press mo into running, running, running for a very seat. And I said, Well, no, Pat, that's not the case, but I do think that it is an up. It is it's something that needs to be thought through, that needs a decision. It can't just be. Put off, put off, put off. We need to look at the pros and cons and see whether it makes sense. I don't know whether it makes sense, but it might make sense. And she said, Well, let's face it, I hate Washington, I hate politics, and all I've ever wanted to do is live in Arizona, which I love. So that was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=490.0,629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that was sort of feeling, so to your knowledge, that that may well have been the primary reason behind,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=630.0,640.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think it probably was. I think it probably was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=641.0,648.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: what, what can you tell us about Pat as a person? What were your impressions of her terrific,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=649.0,660.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: very, very charming everybody. Everybody was charmed by her. Very intelligent, as far as I could tell, a very good mother, well read, just interesting person, and I had a lot of friends in Tucson. Didn't make so many friends back here, it's difficult for a congressional wife. She made, she made friends with some other congressional some other congressional wives, but I think she felt pretty isolated back","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=661.0,704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: here. Was she ambitious at all? Do you think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=705.0,708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: ambitious? No. In fact, her position in regard to Mo's career was she gave him a two year lease on life, okay, well, you can run one more time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=709.0,728.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did mo ever seriously consider running for Goldwater seat?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=729.0,737.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: No, I don't think so. But I would say entirely because of Pat otherwise, I think he would have, I mean, there were some pretty compelling arguments that I could put together at that time. I said, for one, here's an opportunity for an Arizona Democrat to raise a lot of money, because there would be a lot of interest in Goldwater seat, you know, on the part of Democrats, it would be, it would be a race that would get national attention. We'd be able to raise money. And, Mo. Mo, I think at that time, had had a was better known, had a better, better reputation than when Fannin did. When Fannin ran for governor, he ran against Bob Morrison, who had been the county attorney in Pima County. And Bob was kind of a gruff, unpolished guy, and Fannin had the had the gall to use the campaign slogan, a governor you can invite into your own home. Wow, imagine boy. But anyway, I think that, I think that we that mo could possibly have won that race in the end, he might have decided against it. Incidentally, that brings to mind something else, a matter that you would never know to ask me about as to the same, same era so that it's chronologically Okay. Senator Hayden's administrative assistant Roy Elson, had hopes of running for the second congressional district. And so he wanted to get Moe out of the way. And so he got Hayden to offer Moe a judgeship, a federal judgeship. Oh, really, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=738.0,895.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And, and this was around in the 1965 This is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=896.0,900.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: probably, probably in late 63 and Pat thought that'd be a great thing. They could go back to Arizona,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=901.0,916.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and he could be the judge that he always wanted to be that was that was always his ambition to be a judge","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=917.0,924.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: like his father and his uncle and so on. So it was quite tempting. I then sent Mo and pat a memorandum arguing against it. And one of the arguments I made was that if you're really interested in a judgeship, you ought to be interested in the Supreme Court","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=925.0,960.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and look at the history of appointments to the Supreme Court, your chances of being appointed to the court are far greater if you remain in politics than if you take a judgeship. Well, I did a little research on that in order to make that particular","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=961.0,978.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: point. That's an interesting observation, though,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=979.0,982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and the decision was made to turn it down. And at the time, I felt that Pat agreed to it, and she was not resentful for my making that argument.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=983.0,997.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How was your relationship with Pat?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=998.0,1002.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: She was a very good friend.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1003.0,1004.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did the divorce affect you in any way affect your your work in the office at all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1005.0,1012.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: my, my making the case for the Senate race? Kind of spoiled our relationship, and she ceased to think me, think of me as a friend. That's too bad. I felt badly about it. I thought that didn't handle it very well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1013.0,1040.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and then the divorce itself, did that affect any of the workings of the office at all? I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1041.0,1050.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, Mo probably simply devoted more time to the his work than before. And I remember traveling with him quite a bit in his airplane, you know, in Arizona and back and forth between Washington and Tucson, and flying with him, staying in hotels with him so on. I mean, he was kind of, he was kind of shattered. He was kind of forlorn, feeling kind of lonely. And it was, it was kind of a painful time for him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1051.0,1093.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Was pat a flyer too. Was she a pilot also? Was Pat also a pilot? Yes, she was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1094.0,1101.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yes. She was Yeah. She loved to talk about her, her experiences flying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1102.0,1107.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's what I kind of remembered that in 1966 mo defeated Alfred McGinnis by about 60% this was the first time he ran against him. Alfred McGinnis, oh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1108.0,1126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: McGinnis, yeah, well, I couldn't remember his name, yeah, right","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1127.0,1129.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: now. Did you manage that campaign? Oh, yes. Okay. And do you recall anything about about that campaign? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1130.0,1138.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it was, it was not a very genuinely, genuinely type campaign. I mean, it was, it was kind of lot of cheap shots","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1139.0,1148.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: on both sides, or no only","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1149.0,1149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: on his side. No, we know we we continued to conduct ourselves in a in a proper way. How","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1150.0,1156.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had the campaign evolved in in the last between the last few campaigns had hit it? Had it evolved in any way more staff or sophisticated, or were they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1157.0,1199.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I guess I don't remember very much about it. That","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1200.0,1209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was, that was a bad year for Democrats, as I mentioned earlier. We lost 25 Democrats in that election. Oh, and I think that was the that was the campaign in which I got acquainted with Terry Bracy. He was working as a, he's working for as a in the news department at kvoa tv, and I think was still doing graduate work at the University. And He came to me, I think, during the campaign, and said to be interested in, he'd be interested in coming to Washington and and I said, Well, you know, after, after the election, well, there's generally some openings, well, just the opposite. There was, there was a loss of 2525 members with all of their staff. And so jobs on Capitol Hill were, were pretty few and far between. But I had encouraged him to come back. He came back to Washington after the after the election, and I felt I had to do something for him. So we had a crazy pay system back in those days called Basic it was based upon what what pay was paid what people were paid back about 1912 or so with with the percentages of increase every couple of years, with the most, with the largest increases going to the people at the bottom of the pay scale. And so Roger and I had used this trick any number of times to get a little bit more more money for staff, and that was to to assign somebody a small amount of basic which would turn out to be, you know, More than imagine. I mean, for example, $5 of annual basic came out to about $78 a month, not 78 cents, $78 and so I found four other members of Congress to share Terry with us, and we would each employ him for one day a week, at $5 a month, $5 a year, basic. And so we created a few $100 for him to get him started, and that's how he got to Washington. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1210.0,1372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: what did he start doing for you? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1373.0,1377.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in each case, the case I made with each of these members, like Brock Adams. Adams is one of them. Was here's a guy who can handle your TV press releases for one day a week. Now, Roger and I were both former newspaper men, so we didn't need to hire some guy to do handle press releases for us. But we realized we didn't, we didn't have a lot of time to do everything. And so if we just had somebody who could, who could spend one day a week just putting out TV spots or whatever that that would, that would be a big help. So that's what we did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1378.0,1421.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Okay, that's interesting. I never knew how he got his start with the staff. In the meantime, Mo had helped organize bipartisan seminars for new representatives. The freshman seminars, I gather, have become sort of institutionalized and are still used. Were you involved in those that was pretty","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1422.0,1447.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: much more was home doing? It was really remarkable that in his very, very first election, I mean, when the first incoming class came in after he himself was elected to Congress, he then was putting together a class for incoming members, I think was because he realized that he himself really needed that kind of information and like, you know what, what's what's it? What's it mean when the when the committee rises, what's it? What's it mean when, when there's this kind of a vote that kind of about so on and, and, how do you go about staffing your office? How do you go about getting getting electrical allowance? So. On. And so he realized there was a need for that. And so he, he and I, maybe, maybe one other member, you know, just organized this class, and it it built on that each year. Then it became more institutionalized. Where were they held? Then they were held in various committee rooms in the house. Now we we had some outstanding congressional fellows during those years and from the American Political Science Association. One of them was Don Tarn, who had been a newspaper man on the Portland Oregon register guard and and he was, he was also political scientist and, and so he, he was around to help mo during the time that he was on our staff. And he so he, he helped in, in many ways, to to work out classes and subject matter and and handouts and so on. Ultimately, Don and Mo together wrote this book the job of the congressman. We all contributed to it one way or another. But it was mainly. It was mostly, Don's work with with Mo overseeing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1448.0,1602.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did you do any editing or writing of that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1603.0,1607.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: No, I did some, I did a little bit of writing, and I contributed some a little bit of research for some things. But that's all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1608.0,1618.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: okay. I um, a primary, I guess the primary issue in the 1960s was the Vietnam War. And in October 1967 mo became one of the earliest members of Congress to speak out against the war at the Sunday evening forum in in in Tucson. Did you help mo write that speech? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1619.0,1644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I did. Did you let me give you the whole history?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1645.0,1650.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'd love that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1651.0,1652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: back in, in 64 after the Gulf of Tonkin. Resolution, Mo and Roger put together a newsletter. It was a, it was a rough draft of a newsletter. And, and they, they brought it, brought it to me, and or mo gave it to me and asked me to read it and tell them what I thought. And so I read it, and I was at I was just appalled, because what they were saying was that we got to get behind the president on the Gulf of Tonkin. We got to get behind the get behind the president on the invasion of the Dominican Republic. And I went to MOA, I said, My God, you can't say that. This is terrible. You simply can't do that. He said, well, see what you can do with it. So i i then edited it rather severely, and it ended up just asking for some patience for the President to kind of justify his actions. But it wasn't an endorsement. And so that was published. When was that? Approximately been in, I think, in in the in the fall of, in the when was it probably early 65 I think it was probably early 65 it was shortly after, probably shortly After, the Dominican Republic invasion, because the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was before the election, as I recall there was, and so that was probably early, probably early 65 Yeah. Now I continued to be very much opposed to the war. I thought it was absolutely the wrong chorus. And I kept completing the ball about about these votes that would be coming up from time to time requiring additional funding for the Vietnam War. And both felt that he had to, he had to vote for these funding measures. Difficult not to. But anyway, he allowed me to, I think each time that he, that he cast one of these votes, I'd write a speech for him to put in the record about why I didn't want to do this anymore. Stop me before I kill again. And so I wrote several such speeches, which I ended up on the record, but, and it was the way Moe felt, too, but I also was politically. It's pretty impossible not to vote the way he did. And of course, we began getting a lot of a lot of mail on the subject. And occasionally people would show up from from Tucson, and I'd talk with them, and friends of mine from the university would say, what you know? What can we do about this? I say, right Mo, right Mo. It's almost thing, yeah. So he got, he got a lot of a lot of serious mail on in opposition to the war. And so I suggested, at one point in 66 I think that we ought to have a hearing on the subject. Now, he wasn't on any committee that he wasn't on the Armed Services Committee, was not on the foreign affairs committee, but I nevertheless felt we could stage some kind of a some kind of a hearing, give people an opportunity to vent their feelings about the war and and so he decided that be good thing to do. And when we got Congressman Ed row ball of California to join him, so that it was two members of Congress, not just one. And I arranged for the ballroom at the Pioneer hotel in Tucson. And we invited people to testify. We told them they had to bring us 25 copies of their of their remarks, and so on. And so we had all the television stations there. We had, we put on this, on this congressional hearing, without even having a committee, you know, and and so there was, there was a great outpouring of opposition to the war, all of which was solidifying Mo's position to take a tougher stand on it. And that was the whole idea. And so then, I mean, the reception was, was excellent. I mean, nobody, nobody accused these congressmen of trying to stir up trouble,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=1653.0,2028.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and nobody complained about, nobody complained about fact that it wasn't a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2029.0,2032.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: real hearing. It was well received. And as we then, we took all of these statements that were turned in, and we, we published a book. And I don't think I in my things, I don't think I still have a copy of it. I wish I did. I mean, I even designed the cover with the outline of Vietnam, you know. And read,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2033.0,2060.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was it a published book? This published book?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2061.0,2063.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, we published it. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2064.0,2064.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: what was the title?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2065.0,2076.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm assuming. I can't remember the title, but the book was made up of the statements from statements,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2077.0,2080.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: statements about the Vietnam War. You know, some of which were supportive of the war, but most of which were, were Apollos. And so we, we, we published it and it, it. It. What it did was add to the support for for mo to be a little bit more outspoken on the subject. So then in on the mid, mid mid 1967 I mean, the war had just become so terrible. We're getting, we're getting reports of 550 Americans killed last week, next week, another 500 next week, another 600 next week, another 700 and for what so Mo and I discussed it. I don't know how, how the idea of this speech actually originated, where there's mo idea, Mo's idea, my idea. But in any event, we decided that he, he ought to, he ought to make a speech in which he would propose something different than President, course of action. And we decided that it ought to be a major speech. It ought, we ought to do it in such a way that we get maximum attention. So I called Mary Jeffries, who was then the director of the Sunday evening forum, and arranged for this date on october 22 and so we then had, we had about three months to get ready for that. So mo, mo typed out about 30 pages of ideas, and I then, I then began putting it in the form of a speech, and it went through many drafts. And Mo was, Mo was a bachelor at the time, and I would go out to his apartment in Arlington to get away from the from the office and work on it. And so it was. It was a three month labor of love, when, when when we finally had it ready and the the event was approaching, we then knew that with his brother in the cabinet, we we had, we had to let the President know what we Were doing, but we deliberately waited until the very last minute to do it, and we sent it over to the White House on the 20th","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2081.0,2268.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and and. And then mo took off for Tucson on Saturday, Saturday morning the 21st he got a phone call in Tucson from Nick Katzenbach, who was then then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2269.0,2290.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: on the White House staff. And Katzenbach said the President had read his speech and wondered if he could deliver some other speech. And we we were prepared for that. And most said, Gosh, I would do it, but we already put it into the mail. We had printed it as a newsletter, and we had put it into the mail on Friday so that it was literally too late to stop","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2291.0,2333.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so basically, you all planned so that President Johnson would not get the draft until it was too late to do anything about it went up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2334.0,2344.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"00:11:10.000 --\u003e 00:40:27.999\nWE WERE TOLD THAT IT WENT WITH HIS EVENING READING ON FRIDAY NIGHT AND AND SATURDAY MORNING, WE GOT THE PHONE CALL. NOW, WHETHER, WHETHER, WHETHER HE HAD ACTUALLY READ IT, I DON'T THINK IS TRUE, BECAUSE DON CARSON HAS NOW SENT ME SOMETHING THAT I HADN'T SEEN BEFORE. AND THIS IS WALT ROSTOW ANALYSIS OF THE SPEECH, WHICH, WHICH IS DATED SATURDAY, OCTOBER 21 AND ON THE PRECEDING ON THE 20TH, I GUESS WE HAD IT HAND DELIVERED, OF COURSE, TO THE WHITE HOUSE. SO THEY GOT IT ON THE 20TH. HERE'S A MEMO FROM BAREFOOT. SANDERS TO THE PRESIDENT, SAYING, I ATTACH A LETTER RECEIVED THIS MORNING FROM CONGRESSMAN UDALL AND CLOSING A COPY OF THE SPEECH ON VIETNAM HE INTENDS TO DELIVER ON SUNDAY. AND THEN IN JOHNSON'S HANDWRITING, IT SAYS, WALT ANALYZED AND SENT BACK TO ME. LBJ, 1021, 11::\n00:40:28.000 --\u003e 00:40:28.999\nUNKNOWN SPEAKER: interesting. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2345.0,669.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"00:02:40.000 --\u003e 00:40:51.999\nSO THE SO ROSS ANALYSIS ACTUALLY GOT TO THE PRESIDENT, ALL RIGHT, HE THE DATE THAT THE TIME ON IT IS 2:40PM SATURDAY. SO, I MEAN, WE REALLY HAD THEM STIRRING OVER TH:\n00:40:52.000 --\u003e 00:40:57.999\nSPEAKER 2: Well, that's interesting. Now, did did Stuart know the content of the speech before it was made?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2429.0,159.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I'm sure Moe must have told him. I mean, I didn't tell him, but I presume mo must have told him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2458.0,2463.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did. Did this have any, ultimately, any effect with between Moe and Johnson? It is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2464.0,2475.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: amazing that it did not. I'm going to have to stop for just a minute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2476.0,2484.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, we're back back on after a break.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2485.0,2487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What I was starting to say was that this could very well have hurt Stuart's chances for reappointment by Johnson the next year. But there was some other there was something else that happened that I think offset this, and that was the beautification program that Stuart came up for Lady Bird. And that, in my opinion, is the reason that Stewart was appointed, reappointed secretary. He didn't expect to be reappointed. In fact, one day, I was driving my wife and Lee Udall Stewart's wife somewhere, and I commented that we were about to pass, the Congress was about to pass a bill increasing the pay for Cabinet members and members of Congress. And Lee's response was, Well, that'll come too late for us. Interesting, yes, and this was, this was about June of 64 so between June of 64 and, say, December of 64 Stuart's working with Lady Bird on this beautification program, I think insured his reappointment. But otherwise, Johnson might very well have pointed to the defection of his brother, you know, as a reason for not for not","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2488.0,2593.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: reappointing him. Well, I we haven't been on very long here, but before I get into something else, we're close enough to the end of the tape, I'm going to flip it over. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307#t=2594.0,2596.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270307/transcript/78626/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/626/original/azu_ms396-030_side1_a.vtt?1744914253","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/626/original/azu_ms396-030_side1_a.vtt?1744914253"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 5 - azu_ms396-030_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2727.168,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/308/original/azu_ms396-030_side2_a.mp3?1744847855","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2727.168,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yes, okay, we're back sometime. At some point, I honestly don't know the date. Mo was one of the few public officials who received a letter from or a copy of a letter from the soldier who witnessed my lie incident. Ron rittenauer, thank you. I couldn't think of the name right off the top of my head. Do you recall when that was and and what Moe did when he got that letter?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=0.0,33.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I can't recall exactly when that was, but I remember the letter very well. Roger opened that piece of mail and read it over. It was a sort of thing that Roger would normally handle. It was kind of a case. I mean, somebody was asking for an investigation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=34.0,66.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Roger took it to me, and I said, Dick, because I wonder if you take this home with you tonight and read it and tell me tomorrow what you think we ought to do with it. So I did that, and I was absolutely convinced that something terrible had happened. Red now, red now, I think, ultimately, became a newspaper man or something. So he did have some writing ability, and he wrote the letter in a way that was quite persuasive, because he said he'd been in this company C he was transferred out, but later, sometime later, he ran into one of his friends in Saigon, who told me, told him about this incident, which he described as taking place at pinkville. Some time later, he ran into another friend from Company C who told him a similar story, and then perhaps a third one corroborated what he had been told by these others. He had then been discharged from the army and had returned to the States, and was living in California, as I recall, but he was so disturbed by what he had been told that he felt somebody ought to look into it. And incidentally, he referred to the villainous character in this as a lieutenant, Callie, C, A, L, L, E, Y, or no, Kelly, Kelly. He had the spelling wrong, and so I told Roger. I said, we absolutely have got to insist upon an investigation. There's no question in my mind, this warrants an investigation. So he drafted a letter from mole. That's the point at which mole saw it. And we did two things. We wrote, wrote to the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, asking, asking that he also request investigation. And we wrote directly to McNamara, and then the I think that Mendel rivers, who was then the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, also formally requested an investigation. So so that's how it came about, a general peers ended up being in charge of the investigation, and once or twice he came by to see Mo. At this point, Roger and I were out of it. I mean, we, we were not, we were not in the inner circle, so we didn't, we were never told what was going on, but Mo was, but mo couldn't, couldn't tell us. And several, several months went by, and I became very nervous about it, that this thing, the whole thing, was just going to be covered up, shovel, swept under a rug. So one day Ben Cole was in the office. Ben was a reporter for The Pulliam papers in Phoenix and Indianapolis, and I said, Ben, I I can't be your source for this. I can't, I can't give you this story. But I wish you'd just look at the file and basically read the written hour letter and and see if you want to work on this. Well, he brought it back. He said, Yeah, that really sounds that sounds serious, but. He said, you know. He said, I don't have any time do anything. Do anything like, you know. Some time later, Seymour Hersh saw a little paragraph saying that a Lieutenant Calley had been charged or something, just a minor little item appeared back with the next to the legals or something on the in the newspaper, just just an insignificant little item, and it arouses curiosity, and he began looking into it, and he ultimately got a Pulitzer Prize for the story that he wrote. Later, I spoke to Ben. I said, Ben, do you realize you could have had that full of surprise? He says, Yeah, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=67.0,349.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How many, how many congressional representatives received a copy of that letter, and how many ever did anything about it? Do you have any","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=350.0,358.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: idea? I don't. I don't know about anybody else. I know about, about the Armed Services Committee, I know about mo that's all I know. Okay, I think there were others. I think I, as I recall, he sent that letter to like, 10 or 20 members, and it could be that that some others did do, do something with it. A couple years ago, several years ago, a book, a novel, appeared with that as this sort of one of the one of the subjects, the me lie episode, I forget the novel, but it was, it was about an officer from Minnesota who is part of Company C. And so the author of that book was on a local radio show here called the Diane Rehm Show, and when I was listening to it, and and I called, I called in to see if I could speak with him. And I said, you obviously have done a lot of research on the on the me lie episode, does the name MO You don't mean anything to you? He said, It certainly does. And so he definitely thought of Zhou, saw as Mo, as man who triggered that investigation","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=359.0,472.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: completely off of Vietnam, though the same year that mo delivered that speech in 1967 most spearheaded efforts to strip Harlem Congressman Adam Clayton Powell of the chairmanship of the House Education and Labor Committee. That was a pretty unprecedented move. What prompted Moe to get involved in that. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=473.0,509.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was pretty clear to him that that Paul there was, there was so much embarrassment over these indiscretions that Powell had committed and widely publicized, there was there was So much reaction to that that the house was was likely to to reject, reject, prevent him from swearing in to reject Him. And so for that reason, he he felt that that he had to do something in answer to that question, I'd like to read, read to you from a letter that I wrote to a political scientist at the University of Utah back in 1969 I just happened to come across this I was asked for examples of most courage, and I said this quality was never more evident in my judgment. But on the day before the 90th Congress convened in january 1967 i. Along with most of his colleagues and I think most Americans, Mr. Udall had known for many months that some punitive action had to be taken against Representative Adam Clayton Powell if the Congress of the United States was going to retain any honor and any public confidence, not only had Powell misused public funds and his authority as Chairman of the Committee on Education and Labor, but he had asserted repeatedly that this was his right. Allowing this shocking behavior to continue and to go unpunished would be an open invitation to rob the public treasury at will. Yet as the days of congressional organization approached, Congressman Udall was shocked to discover that the House leadership had made no plans to do anything about Powell. Business was expected to proceed as usual. The House establishment dedicated to the principle that seniority and seniority alone shall determine who is to hold power in the Democratic Party and the House of Representatives. Evidently thought that the air ultimately would clear and that Mr. Powell's misbehavior could be dealt with in a quiet talk some time he was to retain his chairmanship and all his prerogatives. Taking note of this lack of concern on the part of the leadership, Congressman Udall had a long session with his conscience. It was his strong conviction, not only that Powell had to be stripped of his misused power, but that without such action, Powell could not possibly retain this seat in Congress and represent the 500,000 people who elected him. After a sleepless night, Mr. Udall made his decision. He would move in caucus to strip Powell of his chairmanship and seniority. He would move on the House floor to seat him When word of this plan got to Speaker McCormick, he was shaken by this attack on the workings of the seniority system. In caucus, he argued against the action, but Congressman Udalls arguments prevailed, and Powell lost his chairmanship. From our district in Arizona came angry telegrams, especially from those most sensitive to the civil rights implications of a move against the most prominent Negro in the house. Even a month later, when I visited Tucson, I received an icy reception from an old political ally, a negro member of the Arizona legislature who had been offended by Mr. Udalls actions. At the same time, our office received many telegrams from anti Negro types who were delighted to see Powell reprimanded in this way. But when Mr. Udall then moved to seat Powell, many of these same people wired again, withdrawing their previous approval. This was one of those situations in which it was hard to find anyone who fully agreed with what had been done. The distinction between Powell as misuser of the powers of committee chairman and Powell as the legally elected representative of 500,000 Americans living in Harlem was one that most people missed later, when Powell was re elected, having been refused his seat. In spite of Mr. Udalls efforts, the Arizona Congressman led an effort to have him seated, but this too failed, not even his colleagues in the House could understand or publicly acknowledge, at any rate, this important distinction, and then I put in parentheses, the Constitution provides only three requirements for service in the house, age, citizenship and residency. The pendulum finally swung the other way in 1969 however, Powell, still stripped of his seniority, was seated after the people of Harlem had re elected him once more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=510.0,850.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's excellent. That is very good, pretty much answers the questions I had too didn't, didn't, didn't. Adam Clayton Powell have an office just down from Moses a couple of doors. Yes, he did. So had you met him? Oh, yes, but what were your impressions of him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=851.0,869.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, well, very, very good looking man, tall, handsome, and could easily pass for white. Oh, is that right? Yes, very fair skinned, very debonair, and very much the ladies man, and very much one who kept to himself. In that his office door was always closed and locked, and if you wanted, if you wanted to visit Congressman Powell's office, you knocked on the door.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=870.0,917.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Interesting? Well, I think we're going to break at the moment. All right, we're back after a longer break. We had just finished talking about Adam Clayton Powell. And that brings us to 1968 or so,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=918.0,938.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: which was, again an election year and again, Moe was re elected, defeating Alfred McGinnis for a second time, this time by 70% margin, which is a pretty, pretty good margin and pretty big jump from the election before. Why do you think the margin had gone up so much","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=939.0,959.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: cap, oh, really, absolutely the we passed the central Arizona project that year. In fact, it came to the House floor the day that that guy was born, my youngest son, and it was a big problem because I was running a whip system for for us, you know, for the cap. And here my wife is, I had to take her to the hospital and had a child born that day. So I will always remember when it was that we passed the Central Arizona Project. Jeff was born, but anyway, I, I always, I always developed the themes for all of our campaigns. Mo always let me do that. And so the the theme that year was Mo Udall gets the job done for Arizona. And we implied that he did it all by himself, because we had Senator Hayden and John rose and others that were involved in it. But, but anyway, I mean, nobody objected, and we just sort of implied that that was the case. And in fact, he did play a very, very important role. In fact, the important role as far as the house was concerned. And so it was, it was proper that people would see him as having achieved that for Arizona.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=960.0,1065.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What role? What? How was his role different from John Rhodes?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1066.0,1073.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, for one thing, he was a member of the majority party.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1074.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Makes a big difference, all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1080.0,1084.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Secondly, he was on the interior committee. John Rose was not he was on the Appropriations Committee. Thirdly, it was in the interior committee that all of the all of the maneuvering had to be done. How do you make peace with California? How do you how do you satisfy California so they will not oppose this? How do you satisfy Colorado? So that Wayne Aspen, all the chairman, will allow it to go forward, and he had an iron grip on that committee. In fact, nothing happened for the first couple years because he wasn't willing to move it. So you had to make peace with this center of power. Then you had to make peace with with Senator Anderson of New Mexico, who who was a key man in the Senate. Finally, you had to make peace with the with the Pacific Northwest. There are 11 states in the Colorado River Basin, and many of them had things that they wanted. And so it was. It was a tremendous negotiating job that had to be done, and Moe was absolutely central to it. I huh? And there's without doubt, it would have been a much would have taken a much longer time for that project to be enacted, if it had ever been, if ever, if ever it hadn't been for mo so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1085.0,1199.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So so his his good margin in 68 was due to cap. It would look to me that that the Vietnam War speech didn't hurt him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1200.0,1213.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I suppose that the the the speech that he made in in the fall of 67 enhanced his reputation as a major national figure. That speech was reported all over the country. I mean, that Monday morning on october 23 it was front page in the Seattle post. Intelligencer, you know, three or four days later, Tip O'Neill announced that's his position too. The we, we, we started getting letters from all over the country. We had a whole battery of Nobel Prize winners from Harvard and MIT and so on, who, who were coming out in support of Mo and wanting to, wanting to help it had it just had an electric response, and so I think that it enhanced his reputation and probably contributed somewhat to his election success. Now, in addition to that, there were some other things, environmental, things he'd done that perhaps offset the concern about the dead. Well, for one thing, we didn't have any dams in the project anymore, so that was out. But he was he played a part in passing redwoods legislation and legislation on the Cascades National Park in in Washington. So he had environmental achievements as well. The amazing thing, absolutely amazing thing about that election was that we carried every single Republican stronghold in the entire district. And of course, we carried all the democratic strongholds in the entire congressional district of at that time, five counties. We lost four rural precincts by votes of 18 to 16, things like that. I mean, it was a landslide, a true landslide. Was there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1214.0,1350.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: an anti McGinnis factor in that too? Do you think? I don't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1351.0,1354.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think that he was that much of a factor. I don't think, I mean, the fact that he was such a weak candidate certainly helped. I mean, there were Republicans who who couldn't stomach him, so that, no doubt that helped.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1355.0,1373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1968 Moe married Ella Royston. Do you have any idea how they met, or or when? Ella, oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1374.0,1385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, she, she worked on Capitol Hill. She worked for another congressman, one that I just can't remember who it was, seems to me it was a New York member. It may not have been anyway, she worked for another member. She socialized a lot on the hill. Jean Jones of our staff knew her quite well. They would see each other at parties and so on. Who was Jean Jones. Jean Jones was a caseworker on our staff,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1386.0,1431.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and is that Jean J E, A N, j","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1432.0,1434.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: e, a n, okay. And Jean had we had hired her after the the defeat of a certain Texas Congressman for whom Larry King had been AA","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1435.0,1460.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and so, as I say, Gene knew Ella socially. And I remember seeing Ella and once or twice at the Democratic Club. I don't want to wander through there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1461.0,1477.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah. What was the Democratic Club? The Democratic","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1478.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Club at that time was, was located in the in the old Congressional Hotel, which which is now annex one of the of the house that time it was a hotel, and part of it on the on the on the ground floor, there was. Was the Democratic Club. The Democratic Club has moved since then. It's elsewhere. But anyway, it was a place where members would go in the in the evening, late afternoon and so on. And I think that mold probably met her there. It could be that, that, it could be that she was introduced by, by Larry, Larry King, for example, or somebody else. I'm not sure. I do know that Larry was acquainted with both of them. So it's possible that Larry might have introduced them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1481.0,1540.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And do you think they had met in 68 or do you think they'd met before that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1541.0,1547.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, they met several years before that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1548.0,1549.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, did they okay? You have any idea about when? Or,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1550.0,1560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: well, yes, I do have an idea when I think it was. It was 1964","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1561.0,1574.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, now, and do you have any idea when, when they started dating in in that period, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1575.0,1587.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't really have a personal knowledge. I don't want to speculate about that. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1588.0,1598.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as I understand, Mo worked for a while, wasn't it in, in the Postal Service, subcommittee office at some","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1599.0,1608.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: point? Yes, that's true. I think that that happened sometime later. I mean, maybe 65 or 66 or 67 or something. But yes, that's That's true. She did work for the for the post office and Civil Service Committee for a time before they were married. And I guess when they were married, she must have, she must have resigned. But I'm not sure whether it happened immediately or not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1609.0,1642.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, what was the subcommittee then that mo had, who was chair of one of the subcommittees?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1643.0,1652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I've forgotten that. I can't think of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1653.0,1654.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it right now, either that can be looked up easy enough,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1655.0,1659.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know. I Roger and I hired the, you know, hired John gabusi, who became the staff director that subcommittee. But whether Ella was working there before John came on board, I don't know. And might could be that she was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1660.0,1682.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Do you remember when John was hired?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1683.0,1685.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: When John was was hired? I think it was probably, probably sometime in 67","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1686.0,1697.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Where did where did you meet John?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1698.0,1700.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: We employed him as a pollster in the 66 campaign. Was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1701.0,1708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he working then for behavior research, I think is what it was called, the polling firm, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1709.0,1715.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: might have been he had a partner, and we continue to work with that partner after John came on board, as I recall fact, I think that fellow might still be in business. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1716.0,1726.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think he is. And I think it's a behavior research, something in Phoenix. In Phoenix,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1727.0,1730.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1731.0,1733.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: getting back to Ella. What can you tell us something about Ella, just your impressions of her as a person when you'd met her, or over the years getting to know her","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1734.0,1755.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: well, I think that people liked her. I think she had a, she had a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1756.0,1771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: kind of a vivacious quality, and and I think that she, she probably was very good for mo in in some ways, I think, I think he felt more of. Are at ease with her than he than he did with Pat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1772.0,1805.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Could he could be less inhibited with her than with Pat? I never thought about him, about him as being particularly inhibited with her, but in comparison, I say that probably was, however, I can tell you a funny story about his maybe not being so inhibited. From time to time, I would stay in their house out of the Catalina Foothills when I was out there working on a campaign or fundraiser or something. And I was out there one time. In fact, I arrived, you know, a couple days before Moe did and and so when he arrived, he and he and Pat and I were living, living in his in his house, and he loved the swimming pool. He always kept the swimming pool heated. You know, in the middle of the winter, you'd see the steam coming up out of the pool. And so anyway, he we picked him up at the airport and took him out at the house. And so Pat and I were sitting, sitting there in chairs by the pool, I guess. And, and here's mo comes out stark naked, you know, jumping up on the on the, on the jump, on the diving board. And I thought, you know, it's okay for mo to be naked in my presence. It's okay for him to be naked in his wife's presence. But our mutual face, that was a little bit, that was a little bit shocking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1806.0,1914.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And were there fences? I hope,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1915.0,1916.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, it was sufficiently remote. Yeah, that was not a problem, yeah. And then, and then, I think that the next day, we were getting him ready. I was getting him ready for a debate, and so I wanted to fire questions. And so once, once again, he got in the swimming pool without any clothes on. He's swimming around, and don't ask him these questions. I Yeah, so some, in some respects, he was not intimidated. Now, as far as Al was concerned, I think that, I think he was more relaxed. He seemed to enjoy her. I mean, he had a, you know, he had a funny nickname for Tiger and and they seem to have a pretty good relationship much of the time, although I think it also became kind of tempestuous at time. I'm not sure about that. Now, my personal relationship with her was not so great, and I think it stems from the fact that that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1917.0,1982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: of all the people in Mo's life at that point after Pat had been gone, the person who was closest to Mo was me. The person who was have the greatest influence over what he would do or not do, was me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=1983.0,2002.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And I think that she perceived that she she was not at all friendly to me. She remember once we were out in in Tucson, staying in this same apartment, wherever, and the telephone rang early in the morning. Moe was still sleeping, and she called. She wanted to speak to Mo. She didn't say, hi, Dick, just as though I was a telephone operator, I could tell that she was not very friendly to me, and she was, she was courteous generally, but not at not at all warm. And ultimately, it was because of her that I left most","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2003.0,2063.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Do you think there was a jealousy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2064.0,2066.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Years later, years later, at a political reception here in Washington, I ran into Mo and Ella, and she took me aside and talked to me for quite a long time. And she said she apologized to me. She said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did. I was jealous of you. And she said, I don't think. This is necessarily true, but I accept it as as as a compliment. She said that, you know, most staff has never been run as well since she left. So that was kind of an indication that she, she was very uneasy about about my role. Now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2067.0,2121.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when you say that you ultimately left most employment because of Ella, was that just from not being comfortable under the conditions where she wasn't warm, or was there a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2122.0,2132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: particular came to a certain point in managing his most campaigns, I would, I would go out, I would go out early and talk to a lot of people, get a sense of of what people what was on people's minds, get an idea what kind of approach we wanted to use in the campaign. And then maybe I'd go back a second time and I would, I'd be there to get things produced, to produce television commercials and ads, and get get volunteers recruited, and so on. And then I would go, I go back to Washington for for a while, and then I'd come out for the last, for the last push. Well, in 1970 I had gone through phase one and phase two had produced all the television commercials. Had gotten everything moving along in the campaign, and I'd gone home to be with my family for a week and a half or so when Moe told me he did not want me to go back to Arizona.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2133.0,2203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And he I asked him why, and he said, because I was, I was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2204.0,2221.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I not allowing Terry Bracy to be sufficiently creative. Well, I knew where that came from. I mean, I knew that that was Ella's idea. And so it was just a red flag, and I, I didn't say anything, but I, I started the process of finding another job. And fortunately, I did. I found a wonderful job as editor of the magazine of the Wilderness Society, and so after some weeks, I announced I was leaving some weeks after after that, right? Yeah, and I actually left the staff on February 1 of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2222.0,2277.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 90, I mean, of 7171 171. If it hadn't been for the situation with Ella, I probably would never have left a staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2278.0,2294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: It sounds like you had a fabulous working relationship with Mo. I noticed when I worked for MO That Ella well, and especially in later years, Ella had a real reticence about going back and campaigning in the district. Did that even? Was that true? Even back in those early years after their marriage,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2295.0,2318.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: she didn't, she didn't do any campaigning when I was there. She","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2319.0,2323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: didn't come out to the district at all on campus. Well, she","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2324.0,2326.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did go out to the district, but she didn't participate. She didn't, she wasn't a presence at campaign appearances, especially, I mean, she'd come along, but then so did Pat. She wasn't really part of the campaign, whereas, obviously she was later. But do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2327.0,2353.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you think she was comfortable being a public figure's wife?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2354.0,2357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think she probably liked that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2358.0,2360.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when as you know, Ella or tiger is as we all knew her, died in 1988 and what was ruled a suicide, Did that surprise you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2361.0,2376.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, yes, I guess so. And I, I uh, if you think back on the lives of people that you know, and you try to search for clues, or how something like that would come about, well then I'd say yes, looking at. Was looking at El. I could, I could kind of imagine that happening, but I would never have predicted it. Terrible, terrible thing. Terrible for Mo.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2377.0,2413.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you ever talk to moe? Did you keep in touch with Moe? Much after, after you left the staff?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2414.0,2418.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, fair amount I dropped by and see him from time to time. I mean, for example, I wrote a speech for him when he was running for president. I would drop in this and just visit with him from time to time. And after he dropped out of the presidential race, he said, you know, Dick, if I'd been elected, you'd be on the White House staff. He also, it was also interesting to hear his observations on what happened in the primaries, and I'm sure that you've heard this from others, but anyway, it was, it was interesting to me to hear him say, I have to, he said, you know, you can always second guess these things. But I have to wonder what would have happened if I had entered the Florida primary. And I said, Florida primary. What's that? Let's have to do with anything he said. Think about it. Who won the Florida primary, Jimmy Carter, who was who his opponent, his let me think, yes, who his opponent? His opponent? George Wallace. He said, he said, I wouldn't have won the Florida primary, but neither would Carter. We would have split the liberal vote and Wallace would have gotten the nomination. I mean, would have, would have won Florida, but he wouldn't have gotten the nomination right. And it was the Florida victory that got a got Carter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2419.0,2532.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And then, of course, Iowa certainly got that ruling. Did mo ever, ever talk to you about running for president. What had the idea entered your head or Mo's head by, say, 68 or so of the thought of him running you or he also,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2533.0,2558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I don't know that he did. I always did, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2559.0,2570.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know it kind of concerns me a little bit. Put some of these things on the record, but an indication of how I was already thinking about presidency, was my reaction when Moe called to say that he and Ella were married. I congratulated him, and then later, after we hung up, I turned to Roger, and I said, Roger, Moe will never be elected president. Now that was my view of Ella Ellis prospects as a First Lady. And that might not have been an accurate statement, but point is that in 1968 I was already focused on the idea of his running for president, and had been there was a there was a reporter for New Mexico newspapers by the name of Paul week, W, I, E, C, K, who became quite a fan of Moe's, and I think he had put the idea in print even before then so. And I think the, I think the Vietnam speech, kind of set Moe apart. I mean, he was perceived there as a molder of opinion, a leader, because, because shortly after that, as I mentioned, Chip O'Neill, many other, many other politicians said that's my position too. I mean, and the the, the and I, and I think that contributed to Johnson's decision and not to run for re election. In fact, reading, reading the the transcript of of Johnson's conversations in the first year of office, you know, recently published. It. It's, it's convincing to me that we escalated the war in Vietnam so that he could, he could out Hawk Perry Goldwater, and in in 68 he perceived that position wasn't going to necessarily win for him. I mean, I think that I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308#t=2571.0,2573.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270308/transcript/78627/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/627/original/azu_ms396-030_side2_a.vtt?1744914280","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/627/original/azu_ms396-030_side2_a.vtt?1744914280"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 5 of 5 - azu_ms396-031_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2728.584,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/content/5/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/309/original/azu_ms396-031_side1_a.mp3?1744847860","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2728.584,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, we're starting tape number 24 which is the third tape in the dick Olson series. Go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=0.0,9.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Okay, now we were just talking about the the idea of Mo Udall being perceived as a presidential possibility, and I was saying that that the Vietnam speech of 67 was was one thing that added to his national reputation. Or there were many, many things, many reasons why he could be considered a candidate for president. Anyway, that was one of them. And then I was also saying that, I think, I think that that that speech and the effect that it had upon Democrats in Congress and so on, did contribute to Johnson's decision not to run for re election. And and I, and as I, as I was saying, I think that I truly believe that that he escalated the war in Vietnam to win the election of 64 he wanted he was not going to be out hawked by Barry Goldwater or even by Cabot Lodge, for goodness sakes. I mean, he was even worried about Cabot Lodge being more hawkish than he but anyway, because of it, I think that that most speaking out as he did, did contribute to Johnson's decision not to run again. So for that reason, along with other things, I think mo began to to be seen as a national figure. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=10.0,113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Roger in back in 68 era? Did did Roger share your view of seeing Moe ultimately as a presidential candidate?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=114.0,123.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, he didn't argue with it, but I don't think he had that same view. Well, for one thing, Roger is such an ingrained pessimist that that he could never hope for anything that's, you know, so so advanced as that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=124.0,155.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in somewhere in the vicinity of 1968 and I admit, again, I don't know the exact date of this most sponsored congressional pay raise legislation that would have, essentially, I gathered doubled the salaries of members over a period of approximately four years. Do you remember the date of that at all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=156.0,182.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well. I remember the bill quite well. And I remember, I remember the the feature of it which made it possible to enact it. And what was that? And that was the the provision that will allow Congress to veto, wait a minute if we give allow Congress 30 days to veto what was otherwise an automatic an automatic increase once the President acted, then there could be 30 days in which Congress could veto it. But it was also part of the plan that those 30 days would be days with Congress is not in session or not yet organized, or something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=183.0,246.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: besides, besides that was that was the idea that if there was some public outcry, an enormous public outcry against it, it would give them a chance to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=247.0,259.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I think It was assumed that there would always be a public outcry. The fact is that that that the pay of members of Congress and members of the Cabinet, high level government employees, had lagged way behind the rest of the economy for a long, long time, and people like Ralph Nader, I hate that song a bitch. Will will in a knee jerk fashion. I. To oppose every, every, every pay raise that is ever proposed. And I mean, when I came to Washington, congressmen were made, were paying $22,500 a year, and Cabinet members were making 25 if Ralph Nader had his way, they'd still he may make it, making that, I mean, he's never favored a single cent of increase. It's as though we want the government to be operate, to be run by millionaires or total incompetence. And I feel strongly about the particular sand he's taken on that issue, but there are many other people who are just ignorant on the whole subject. So it is, it's always a touch you want. Now, I think that compensation has caught up quite a bit and raising years. I'm not I'm not so concerned about 135,000 a year as I was 22,500 but there been a lot of changes in the value of the dollar since then too. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=260.0,374.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he take much, much heat from constituents for the his sponsorship of that. Remarkably,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=375.0,382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we didn't get a lot of a lot of heat from our constituents. We did get some, of course, and we got some really funny, funny letters might want to address to the hungry. More Morris. Gay. Udall, H, O, N, G, R, Y, but within our within our own district, it wasn't such difficult issue, but for members in general, it was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=383.0,421.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: still in 1968 Moe ran against the somewhat entrenched or institutionalized House Speaker John McCormick. What are your recollections of that race.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=422.0,442.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I have a lot of recollections. Well, you say it was 68 It was late 68 of course, the election was in January of 69 as I recall. Oh, yes, but Mo and I wrote a letter to all of his Democratic colleagues, informing them that he was going to be running for the speaker. And of course, he, he personally told, told McCormick that he was doing that. In fact, I think McCormick couldn't win, that he was going to do it. And he, he called him and called and called him to say what a fine in Congressman he was and he went to help. This is peripheral. I mean, I can't, I don't have direct knowledge of that. I'm just sort of remembering that. But I do have direct knowledge of the letter that we sent, and it was four single spaced pages. I punched it out on a machine called a dura. We had a we had an automatic typewriter at that time that used a thin punch tape. And when you pressed a key, you were you were punching in a code in that tape, and so we sent out whatever number it was, like 285","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=443.0,552.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: original letters. Now, was this the forerunner of the robo, or was it the robo machine?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=553.0,556.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: This came after the Robo. It was a successor to the Robo. It's called the dura. It had brief, a brief period of life on Capitol Hill, and then it was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=557.0,573.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: gone. But I remember, as I was we'd agreed on the language and moment mode, signed off on it, and I was typing it into the under the tape, and I got to the last paragraph.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=574.0,595.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it happened that at that particular time i. So Frank Borman and his crew were flying around the moon, in orbit around the moon. And so I had an inspiration, and I wrote a final paragraph, and I wrote, let me hear from you. It's Moby out here in orbit. I finished it out. I took it in. I say, Well, what do you think of this? He's all great,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=596.0,634.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: so apropos on any","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=635.0,639.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: level. So then we sent the letter out, you know, the next day, wow. I mean, everybody wanted to get I mean, the press was calling, you know, and we agreed I'd handle all the press calls, you know. So I remember talking to La time, the Washington Post, New York Times, Time magazine, I mean, everybody, and they were asking, well, Is he serious? He wouldn't do it if he wasn't serious. And and he did. He did have this little group of Democrats who were who were sort of part of his team, but in the end, of course, didn't have the he didn't have the votes. The remarkable thing is, it did not hurt him in any way with with McCormick, or anybody else. I mean, he continued to continue to do well on this among his","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=640.0,708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: colleagues. Now, Tip O'Neill and would have disagreed with you. He mentioned in his autobiography, man of the house, he said that running against McCormick was the biggest mistake that Moe ever made, indicating, basically that McCormick would annihilate him, or did annihilate him when he later, when Moe later ran for majority leader, and indicated, as I recall, that McCormick made a number of phone calls when Moe Then later ran for majority leader telling people don't vote for that sob.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=709.0,744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That was not. Keep in mind that they both come from Massachusetts. Keep in mind that O'Neill nominated, nominated, Boggs in the in the in the race for for majority leader, and and no, it could be that it was a mistake. In fact, when you consider that he didn't win or I guess it was a mistake, but it was not a It was absolutely not a crucial mistake, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=745.0,796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it didn't destroy his relationship with McCormick. That. No, no, no. Well, that's an interesting perspective,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=797.0,802.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and it certainly didn't destroy his relationship with Tip O'Neill, because Tip O'Neill was became a great fan of later years in the at the time when I was working for Jim Wright, somebody did a did a poll, and indicated that the two most popular members of the House, or Mo Udall and Jim Ryan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=803.0,831.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now was that a poll conducted of other members? Or no, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=832.0,835.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was some. It was, it was a, oh, it was a poll. Yes, of other members, of the responses of other members to a question, Who do you hold in highest respect, or something so and of course, when Moe ran for president, he had a very enthusiastic support among his fellow Democrats","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=836.0,860.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: who were the Do you remember the principal backers of moe when he ran for the speaker position?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=861.0,870.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was on my way out. This was, this was after I made the decision to leave, and I was, I was there during that time, but I wasn't. I wasn't playing too much of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=871.0,888.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: a part this being 68","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=889.0,891.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: latter part of 68 and, oh, wait a minute, I beg your pardon. No, 68 I was, Oh, I was very much in. Involved. I didn't, I don't know. I can't really remember how much of a part I played in the most decision to run. I do know that I was involved in some of the strategy, and certainly in writing that announcement letter, handling the press and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=892.0,926.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I noticed that in his book education of a congressman, Moe voiced disappointment over the amount of commitments that had apparently been made to him by members that then, as he said, quote, unquote, faded away. What happened? Do you know just","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=927.0,948.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, for one thing, I think George meaning was, was a factor, and he, he continued to be resentful that Moe had to had opposed to repeal of the right to work. Johnson, I suspect, was a factor, you know, he had, he just dropped out of the reelection race that in 68 he was not a candidate. Nixon had just been elected and but Johnson still had lots of friends, and I don't, I don't have any anything, anything to go on there, except just just a hunch that that that he might have played a part, both in in The speaker race and in the majority leader race.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=949.0,1023.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1970 John McCormick retired, and Moe challenged Hale Boggs for the majority leader position. One question I've always had is, if McCormick retired, why didn't Moe run for speaker again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1024.0,1043.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, well, because, because there are many more senior Democrats who would, who would challenge him in in the Incidentally, I just remembered something about the speaker base. I devised a little strategy that mo did adopt, and which, which later was, was mentioned in the press","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1044.0,1078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: as as being a brilliant stratagem, and that was that mo would present himself As, as the as as the challenger to McCormick, not for the purpose of electing himself","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1079.0,1106.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: speaker, but in order, in order to replace McCormick with somebody else. And once, once that vote was done. Mo would then, would then withdraw and and call for further nominations. And there would be a second vote when, when the real election would occur. And it would might then be any one of these senior Democrats who, like like Carl Albert, who who would consider themselves more in line for it. And and yet, I also told Mo, in my memo on that subject, which I probably still have somewhere in my files, that if that happens and you, then, you then open the, open the nominations for other candidates you're going to have. You're going to have Candidate A, B, C, and this lion, killer, Mo Udall, now, who's going to win? So anyway, that was a strategy,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1107.0,1194.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and the other the senior congressional members knew a. Out this, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1195.0,1200.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean, he did say that if, if he had the, if he had a majority of the votes, then he would then call for additional nominations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1201.0,1209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, that is a brilliant strategy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1210.0,1218.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What do you think was Mo's primary motivation in running for both speaker and majority leader?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1219.0,1226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, I think in the case of the speaker, it was frustration at the lack of leadership, just the indirection of the house. That seems kind of funny looking back on it. I mean, after all, we passed two civil rights we passed the civil rights bill, voting rights bill, Medicare and so on. I mean, highway bill, AJ, education. I mean, we passed all kinds of things, but, but nevertheless, there was a feeling that that McCormick was a was a weak leader, and and that we needed, we needed more vigorous leadership","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1227.0,1281.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and, how about for the majority leader race, same thing Majority Leader","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1282.0,1287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: race. I think there's probably just more conventional ambition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1288.0,1301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And What? What? What happened in the majority race? Why? Why? Why do you think he he lost?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1302.0,1309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I think he did have the active opposition of some powerful people, maybe including McCormick, maybe including Johnson, maybe including George meany. I think those are all possible, possible factors beyond that, he was, he was junior to other candidates who are running, like Hale Boggs and Jim O'Hara, and therefore didn't have any particular reason to expect to win in such race. And Boggs had already been the whip. So it was perceived as moving up the moving one step up the ladder. So it wasn't illogical that he that he would be elected. It would have been, it would have been less logical for Moe to be elected. Actually,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1310.0,1376.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it was at the race where, when he lost, he turned the lapel button upside down to read, Al,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1377.0,1382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, I think so. And then he also put out that great quote, you know, which, it's a little bit shocking, but anyway, said comparing with comparing the caucus to a cactus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1383.0,1397.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm not sure I remember that one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1398.0,1399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, since it's a Puritan print and so on, I guess I can repeat it. He said, the difference between a caucus and a cactus is that the cactus has the pricks on the outside.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1400.0,1414.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I have heard that one congressman, John Rhodes, in his oral history for the Udall oral history project, stated his belief that Moe when in running for the speakership, that Moe was already setting himself up To be president. What are your comments on that I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1415.0,1445.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: now, I think mo, mo did perceive him, himself as as having,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1446.0,1456.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: having leadership potential. I think he liked the idea of holding a high office. I can't say that. I know that he was specifically thinking about the presidency at that time. I know positively that I was and that we, you know, and the staff and so on, we talked about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1457.0,1494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And I'm sure that we talked about it with him too. But whether he. Ever specifically indicated an engine, an interest in the in the presidency at that early date, I don't recall","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1495.0,1514.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: several, several years later, when Moe announced his candidacy for president, a number of congressmen signed a petition urging him to run, which was kind of an unprecedented thing to my knowledge. At least, do you happen to know if any of the signers of that petition were the same people who supported him for speakership or for for the majority leader. I realized the petition came out after you had left the staff. So, oh, I'm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1515.0,1551.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: sure that they're quite a number that that would be in both groups. But I, unless I saw the saw that list, I wouldn't be able to say. I would, you know, I could, I could name people that I would think were in both groups. For example, I I'll take somebody like Frank Thompson of New Jersey. I'm sure he would. He would have been in both groups. Maybe Dave obey and Dave Obie, probably yes and and can't think of his name, the congressman from Tampa, Florida. I is one of his one of the Southern Democrats, who who mo had on in his group from the beginning. And so there would be people like that who would certainly be with groups,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1552.0,1617.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, in in 1970 also, the Phoenix Gazette published an article concerning Moe, in which they stated that in 1970 actually, I should restate this. The Phoenix Gazette article did not come out in 1970 it was a much later article about Moe. In fact, it may have been an article when he retired, or something, giving a synopsis of his life in Congress and all anyway. The Phoenix Gazette stated in this article that in 1970 Moe had had considered returning to private practice. Is that true? Or do you recall any discussions of that sort with him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1618.0,1664.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, I don't think it's true. Did mo ever","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1665.0,1668.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: express a desire to you to return to private practice? No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1669.0,1674.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, absolutely not. The only, the only thing it was what I mentioned earlier, he did consider accepting a judgeship, but there was never, ever any discussion in my years of his returning to private practice, when,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1675.0,1694.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what year did the judgeship question come up? Do you know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1695.0,1697.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think it came up in 63","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1698.0,1703.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, yeah, I was curious what they were talking about, because I had certainly never heard, heard that. Okay. Now the legislative reorganization act of 1970 Is that something you were involved in at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1704.0,1728.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was some extent, but I can't, I can't remember much about it now. I guess that was, that was an out, an outgrowth of the Joint Committee on reorganization, where, for example, mow had mo had proposed four year terms and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1729.0,1747.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, that's what I wondered. Moe, had I gathered introduced a bill which established this Joint Committee on the organization of Congress to revise rules and procedures and practices of the house. And I wondered if this legislative reorganization act of 1970 was was the result of of that joint committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1748.0,1775.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't recall the joint committee ever yielding much there was, there was a lot of need for for improving the way things. As were done, and ultimately, one of the results of this effort was to create more subcommittees, more Subcommittee Chairman greatly expand congressional staffing as a result, and diminish the the power of most committees by dividing up, dividing the power up among subcommittees. I guess that that a lot of that came about because of that, of that, that 71 act, kind of set the stage for the for the, the big Democratic class that came in after Watergate in 74 suddenly there were lots of sub committee, Chairman's Chairman's positions opened a lot of staffing possibilities, big explosion of personnel on Capitol Hill. I'm sorry I don't remember too much about that, but I do know that both in the post office committee and in the interior committee. Moe initially was very frustrated by the undemocratic procedures and the concentrated power of the chairman and the lack of any budget or any authority on the part of subcommittees and individual members. Now he led a a revolt in the in the post office committee, and I was early as 6364 something like that, which resulted in stripping the chairman of much of his power and and creating more subcommittees and all that. And he kind of led that revolt. And and he he got, he got a number of other members of the committee to go along with this revolt, you know, so they, he had a majority, so he was able to do it. And so that was his. That was his first experience in reorganizing congressional committees and procedures, and then, then he still had the same kind of undemocratic situation in the interior committee where, for example, Wayne Aspen all sat on the central Arizona project for a couple of years, and other things the same way. I mean, he had an iron hand over that committee. So Mo is anxious to to improve the way Congress operates in that regard. So that's the reason he would be sponsoring such legislation and but I can't, I don't remember very much about that particular bill,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=1776.0,2000.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm interested you mentioning that one aspect of that might have been increasing congressional staffs, because later, later on, Moe would say that that one of the things that he really didn't like was how the congressional staffs had become so large that he he felt that it the it seemed to allow the proliferation of issues.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2001.0,2030.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think, I think that is pursuit of the the law of unintended consequences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2031.0,2040.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's funny how that works. And as he said, he likes seniority system a lot better the longer he was there. Let me ask you some questions about the changes in the congressional office from the time you began, which is about 1960 or 61 to 1970 had, well, one had the number of staff changed in over that almost 10 year period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2041.0,2067.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, initially we were, we were always eager to get one more slot or a few more dollars. Now, initially, the staff that we started with in 61 consisted of basically of five full time people in Mo's office, Roger Lewis and myself, Moe's secretary, Louise Greenfield. A caseworker, Gene Jones and receptionist, Terry Nash, initially we had a different receptionist, oh yeah, studio Neil, but anyway, there were five of us, and then we would have a nightmare to whom we would pay a few dollars a basic, probably $5 a year. Basic, which came out to about $78 a month, something and night man would come in and run the robo machine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2068.0,2132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I remember that was a job that Richard Kimball had when I first worked for Mo. Now that this would have been a little after, after you left too. He was a night Robo man, and ended up going back to Arizona and running for Senate against John McCain one year. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2133.0,2156.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So that was a staff and then, and then we had, we had two or three part time people in the district office in Tucson, had then a couple of years later, where we would get one more slot and a few more dollars and so on. I think at the time that I left, we probably had a total staff of counting full time and part time of 15 or 20 or something like that. However, the growth of the members staffs, while it's been it's been substantial, is not really what has added so much personnel to Capitol Hill, but rather the subcommittee staffs of the legislative committees and and appropriations committees too. I mean, there's just been tremendous growth in that. And I think everybody kind of complains about it. I mean, they like their own jurisdiction, but don't like, don't like all the consequences of having so many people involved. Now, when I was working for the majority leader Jim Wright, I had to deal with with a certain amount of rivalry between the committees, and I handled a complicated bill that involved four House committees, and I called to Be the staff directors of those four committees together and discussed what we had to deal with in a conference. And afterwards, I got a phone call from one of them. I said, DEC, I hate to tell you this, but you're going to have to do this yourself, because no one committed, no one committee was was willing to allow another committee to have the lead on this. So Dick Olson took the lead. Unprecedented.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2157.0,2315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's Washington. How had the character of most staff changed, if at all, over, over that nine or 10 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2316.0,2329.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, during the years that I was there, staff remained pretty much the same. We did have some, we were able to add a couple. I'll add another position. For example, we brought Terry Bracey in, and we gave him the title legislative assistant, and I no longer used that title, and then used the title executive assistant. My job was still the same, but changed titles. So we did have one more person there. We got another secretary, a couple more case workers and so on, but the staff was still still you. Relatively small and, and, and, I think, free of, free of the kind of friction and and back biting and so on that. Oftentimes goes on in offices. I can't, I don't know anything much about the office, the office after 71 so I can't really","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2330.0,2410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how often was mo returning to the district then,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2411.0,2416.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: fairly often. I it was governed somewhat by the by the allowance that Congress provided for for trips. And I don't remember what it was, but he went home about as often as he could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2417.0,2447.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In in 1971 Campaign Finance Reform Act passed, but backing up a little bit in 1967 about four years earlier the at least earlier than the introduction of the Campaign Finance Reform Act. Mo introduced legislation that would would have limited the cost of campaigns and federally financed some campaigns and shortened general elections. Were you involved with that legislation at all? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2448.0,2481.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was and Mo and i Mo and I wrote, wrote an article for Playboy magazine about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2482.0,2491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What happened to that bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2492.0,2497.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Got nowhere,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2498.0,2499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did it? Did it become sort of the 1971 bill? Did it end up being sort of rolled into that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2500.0,2507.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, it's kind of hard to say. I mean, I think any any time that you propose government financing of political campaigns, you're going to have a pretty tough sell. And so that that feature of it certainly was not rolled in. But there was anything that was I was not that okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2508.0,2534.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In passage of the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 i To what extent would you say that Watergate was an impetus for that? Finally, passing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2535.0,2550.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: 71 yes, what could have been Watergate hadn't happened yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2551.0,2561.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I got my dates wrong here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2562.0,2562.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Watergate was 72 I believe you're right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2563.0,2568.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, you know, the law was signed by President Nixon on February 7, 72 I think the break in had already occurred by that time. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2569.0,2578.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no. That was, that was in in the spring of 72 that that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2579.0,2582.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, is that right? Okay, I must have my, I must have my facts messed up here. Then it couldn't have had much to do with it, huh? We've already talked some about, about the presidential race, but let me, let me just ask, ask some I know you were gone from Mo's office by that time. Why do you think he ran and why do you think he lost? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2583.0,2619.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Hmm, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2620.0,2638.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think, you know, like the rest of us, he was kind of frustrated, unhappy with the kind of government that we'd had under Nixon and Ford and in fact, under Johnson too, I think that he felt that he could, he could run the country better than better than they had, certainly better than Johnson, certainly better than than a Nixon, in some respects, maybe not others. And of course, kind of hard to get excited about Ford one way or another. And so in that regard, because Ford was a weak candidate in. Uh, probably also, I mean, saw an opportunity, opportunity, and conceivably, conceivably, he had achieved enough stature and so on that that he might do it. Of course, lots of people like myself, had been trying to convince him for a long time that he did have presidential potential. So I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309#t=2639.0,2641.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146510/file/270309/transcript/78628/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/628/original/azu_ms396-031_side1_a.vtt?1744914306","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/628/original/azu_ms396-031_side1_a.vtt?1744914306"}]}]}]}