{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/7s7hq3t24f/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John Fife Interviewed by Miriam Davidson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright held by University of Arizona Libraries\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Miriam Davidson Papers, MS 433, Box 3, tape 11"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Fife, John (Interviewee)","Corbett, Jim, 1933-2001 (Interviewee)","Davidson, Miriam, 1960 (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1987-02-03 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 John Fife discussing the background leading up to his involvement with the Sanctuary Movement, and the indictments relating to the Sanctuary Trial as well as the trial itself. Side 2 John Fife discussing legislation in the United States relating to the refugee situation, continuation of his work and his thoughts post-trial. Beginning at 21:00 Jim Corbett discussing various topics relating to the Sanctuary Movement and answering clarification questions for Davidson's book.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS433.011 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Miriam Davidson Papers (is part of)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 John Fife discussing the background leading up to his involvement with the Sanctuary Movement, and the indictments relating to the Sanctuary Trial as well as the trial itself. Side 2 John Fife discussing legislation in the United States relating to the refugee situation, continuation of his work and his thoughts post-trial. Beginning at 21:00 Jim Corbett discussing various topics relating to the Sanctuary Movement and answering clarification questions for Davidson's book.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright held by University of Arizona Libraries\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - azu_ms433-011_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2778.672,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/189/101/original/azu_ms433-011_side1_a.mp3?1685571059","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2778.672,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-011_side1_a edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Testing, testing 123. The beginning of the book, I talk a little bit about how you first came here. And I remember you told me that, that they were going to close down Southside and merge it with another church. And you convinced them to give you a couple of years here. And the editor wrote in the margin, there must be a good story. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2.0,41.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I don't think there's a good story. I mean, I think, you know, it was it was a kind of it was it was a real gerrymandered situation I was I was working back in Canton, Ohio. And the project I was working on back there was a was a kind of one of those experimental ecumenical ministries, that a number of downtown cathedral churches had started to explore what they could do in primarily black and Appalachian ghettos around those churches in the downtown. And they hired the three of us, two Presbyterians and a Methodist minister, to do that. And to explore that. Well, my job had come to an end, which was primarily to initiate some community organizations, and to develop local leadership to take that over. And we had done that, and the local black leadership was ready to go with that organization that was that was in place and operating at that point. And, and I was becoming a problem, I was in the way. And so about the time that I needed to, to be gone. I heard that this church was looking for a pastor, and I knew about this church, sometimes I've worked in Arizona before. And, and thought it was just ideal in terms of a place to be in ministry, as well as the congregation is very unique in its diversity. And so I called Dave Sholin who was at St. Mark's Church then. And said Dave, I'd like to be the pastor at Southside Church. Listen, for the presbytery not knowing anything about that they've pretty much decided to merge that with the Church of the Covenant down here, and I don't think that that's going anywhere, but I need an associate pastor. And, and I'm looking for someone to work with me at St. Mark's Church, and he said, Why don't you Why don't you come out and interview for the job, I hear you're reasonably intelligent and can put in an honest day's work. And I said, Dave, I, I don't want to work with you. I really don't think that that's what I want to do in the ministry, is be an associate pastor on a stamp somewhere, nothing against you, my friend. But I think we do a lot more good for Tucson if we were in separate parishes. And he said, Well, that may be true. But he said, tell you what you come out, I'd like to talk to you. And then he said, You come out, interview for the job at St. Mark's. We'll at least have a chance to talk about that and explore it. And I promise you, I'll do everything I can to see if you can get an interview with [INAUDIBLE] at Southside. And we'll talk about whether that's possible or not. I said okay. So I came out Marianne and I came out and and basically interviewed first at St. Mark's and that was a very nice job. And came down here and met with the pulpit nominating committee. And the upshot of it was that I got offered both positions. And I guess the only interesting part of that story is that Marianne and I divided on where we ought to go. She said you ought to go to St. Mark's. And I said I want to go to Southside. And that was a real difficult time for us in terms of our marriage [INAUDIBLE] and everything else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=42.0,302.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You hadn't been married very long at this point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=303.0,309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, it was, we'd been married, yeah six years. so we weren't no spring chicken It still was, was a major crisis. Probably the most major one we've ever had.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=310.0,338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: After that you reached some sort of accommodation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=339.0,345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well no, I don't think accommodation is the way we operate our marriage. Relationship, that's not a good descriptive word. What, what we did was hit an impasse and never did get that resolved. Except that Marianne decided to hold the marriage together and go on with crazy times. I have sworn to her that I'll make it up to her at some point in the future. But we haven't gotten to that point yet. In terms of, if we, when we move again, she'll have a whole lot more input [INAUDIBLE] but I owe her, but that's as far as we've gotten toward resolution and accommodation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=346.0,401.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: By the time the sanctuary thing came along, she sort of knew which way you're gonna go or something. So maybe it wasn't?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=402.0,410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, I think, no, I mean, when the Sanctuary Movement came along, and refugees started showing up around here. Marianne, said to me, you know, I don't think I can handle it. And said, I don't want you to have anything to do with this [INAUDIBLE]. And what may happen. And I said, Ah, now come on now, don't worry, this is this is just a little problem, we're gonna we're gonna work on this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=411.0,448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You assured her that nothing was gonna happen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=449.0,451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, I just said I don't think it's all that serious. We're ... I'm just. And at that time, I was just on the fringes of things. Sitting on a committee and doing fundraising. And, you know, keeping some refugees in the church and encouraging people to do it in their homes, you know, that sort of thing. But that was all real legal stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=452.0,477.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: All a matter of perception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=478.0,479.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right. This is this is not a big deal. Work on this along with a lot of other things you know, suddenly we found ourselves in a position Jim describes as a whirlpool. All the sudden you look up and you've been drawn into the whirlpool. Don't realize how you got there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=480.0,505.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well she told me she really didn't relax until the indictment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=506.0,510.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. Because Marianne has a kind of personality that deals well with certainty, no matter how bad that is, but does not deal well with uncertainty. And, and different people react differently in those situations, although I think Marianne, like most people, is its always easier to deal with even tragedy than it is to deal with the uncertainty and anxiety of not knowing what to anticipate or always anticipating the worst, or whatever. And, and, and I think that's very true. That she found it much easier to deal with the indictments than the three years previous to that. she didn't know what was gonna happen day to day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=511.0,558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: How about you, what was your reaction to the indictments?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=559.0,563.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You know, you have a number of reactions to the indictment. My initial reaction was kind of kind of one of release. Well, now we're gonna get to the court battle, that I'd been anticipating for a long time and almost hoping that we find some way to get to some kind of decisive point in a court of law so that we could get some resolution to this heightening confrontation that was going on between church and state. And the, my initial reaction was to the indictment was, now we've got it. Now we go to court, now we get to deal with the issues in that arena. And, and basically, I thought I was kind of really excited about the fact that the government had placed themselves on their own [INAUDIBLE] just now. That they were in deep trouble, I figured. And but that very quickly met the light of day when I when I started talking with, with attorneys in some detail about the indictment, and about the motion in limine. And that if the motion in limine prevailed, you were not going to have that kind of trial. And indeed that's what happened. So I think the others, beyond that. The first thing, the only thing I was concerned about was the refugees that were picked up at the time, and and I think initially, those two things were kind of operating at the same time, by God, we finally got them where we want them. And secondly, oh, my God, I hope this does not result in tragedy dealing with the refugees. And you know, from there, it was kind of being overwhelmed by by the task of, in terms of defending raising funds [INAUDIBLE] and putting together a legal team and making it work. All just the enormous tasks that were laid out at that point, I did not have any idea how complex a matter it was to present a legal defense and to organize and have a trail of that magnitude. If I, if I had known all that, I certainly wouldn't have been as excited as I was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=564.0,754.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Especially to have it all, I mean, one of the guys who critiqued the book, they send it out to these local writers who they are, secret appraisals. And one of them says that why is she paying so much attention to this courtroom drama when the trial was over before it even started? Was the impression that this guy had. And I'm wondering if you thought that? I mean, if you thought that it was ...  do you think it was over before it started? Because of the rulings? Or did you think that it would be still be able to present the issue,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=755.0,797.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I thought we were going to still be able to find some way to get the issues before the court up until the final ruling that Judge Carroll dropped on us, I think it was the week before the trial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=798.0,812.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: During the jury selection?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=813.0,814.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: During the jury selection and just a week before we got to the beginning of the trial, so at that point, I assumed that it was all over, that we would not be able to, to get anything in front of that jury. But then, you know, when we got t opening statements, and the attorneys got in what they did get in and I had a chance to watch that ... those very skillful folk at work and watch the incompetence of Reno at work, I got more hopeful that by golly, we are gonna get a lot more material than I ever imagined or that Judge Carroll ever imagined before the jury and and I think all of us developed from that point on from the opening arguments, a kind of sense of maybe we'll be able to pull this off in spite of everything and that that built as we went along. And and the dynamic set up the way it was. I think that by the end of the trial, I was still very hopeful that we had been able to pull it off and that the jury would, would be able to see more of the reality than than either what the testimony or evidence had permitted, but they would have been bright enough to pick up on the signals. As it turns out, that was true. They knew exactly what was going on. We had managed to get the information before them in little ways so that they understood pretty much what was going on. What absolutely still dismays me is how easily that group of people was, was influenced by the judge's instructions. And how easily they caved in to what he said they had to do. In that kind of sense of authority is, is, is pretty, pretty powerful, much more powerful than than I gave, gave it credit for being,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=815.0,959.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: because it [INAUDIBLE] to the other defendants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=960.0,964.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: So so when we finally got to the verdict, I was, I was quite astonished at how the judge was able to simply instruct the jury about how he wanted that thing to go. He couldn't have done it with the defendants, I guarantee you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=965.0,989.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it wasn't really a jury of your peers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=990.0,991.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No but thats, that's, that's a given in that situation, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=992.0,998.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, well, I think, there was, the defense also overestimated their ability to put information together or maybe their prior knowledge of the situation. Or maybe they just ... you think they did know though?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=999.0,1019.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: From from the interviews that I've seen, they knew, they knew that people were dying. They knew that these people were fleeing for their lives. They had no question about that, they believed that. They knew that there was something called the 1980 Refugee Act, they didn't know any details about it, but they believed that we thought we were acting according to the law. They knew that that INS was gerrymandering the asylum process. All that stuff they knew and still, you know, the judge says that's a crime. They said, Oh, well, we don't like it. We don't think justice is being done. But but we'll still go along with you, judge. Because he is the authority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1020.0,1072.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well that's, so it makes the judge really the most interesting character in all of this how he can know all those things too and still believe that the law is more important than life and death.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1073.0,1087.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, well. The judge does not believe that the law is more important than life and death. I mean, if you listen to his concluding statement. He believes that the law always will result in justice. And that the problem was we just were not skillful or bright enough to use the law like it should have been used and the whole thing would have been resolved. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1088.0,1110.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1111.0,1112.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right. If we had just been better lawyers, then and use the system the way judge Carroll would, could have of course used it, he being bright and skillful and a great lawyer, that that there's, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a system, that it always works out properly, to to adjust solution to problems, if only people are bright enough to use the law the way it should be used. And his problem with us is, we simply weren't bright enough lawyers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1113.0,1148.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well he said that the bad lawyers were the ones who were who were working for the SIVs, you know, the applicants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1149.0,1155.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: And if they if they had just been brighter and more skillful, why, the asylum process would have worked. And if we'd have been brighter and we would have thought ... Yeah, I'm sure he believes it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1156.0,1167.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And I guess that's why he gave you probation to kind of show that justice has been done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1168.0,1171.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right, we found you guilty you clearly violated the law. We can't have that kind of anarchy and we can't have that kind of vigilantism in this country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1172.0,1179.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But now I'll show you real justice by not putting you in jail. There really is justice","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1180.0,1189.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: and that's his perspective. I think he's wrong. One that that the system always works. Anyone looking at the justice system in this country who concludes that, is totally out of touch with reality. But secondly, anyone who believes that the United States justice system is approaching infallibility or perfection is totally out of touch with reality too, but it shows how deeply committed Carroll is to the law and to his profession. And and also how out of touch with reality yet, which is what was evidenced over and over and over again during the trial. So, real interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1190.0,1240.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: People don't seem to mind in leaders at all that they're out of touch with reality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1241.0,1244.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, I think they mind it. I thought Reagan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1245.0,1247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about Reagan? No one cares that he's totally oblivious.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1248.0,1251.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, yeah, they do care, a whole lot. Oh, and and I think that the verdict in in the trial really was that the judge Carroll's courtroom was not a judicial process. And that it had not been a fair process, and that the verdict was was gerrymandered as a result of an unfair process, and, you know, the whole community pretty much affirmed that conclusion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1252.0,1293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, well, that's what I want to show in my book without saying it [INAUDIBLE] of course because I think that people have such faith in the system and what you know, the book ends, the guy says its a limp ending, but at the moment I have it ending with Jim talking about how the people or the people in the communities need to stand up to these authority figures, or to somehow educate themselves that we have a responsibility to keep them to keep them from abusing their power. Because we give them a lot of power, and then what's to keep them from abusing it. okay, I skipped over a few questions about these early years here. Do you remember when the Church, the elders, church elders voted to shelter refugees in the church? It was two people abstained from the voting right? They were government employees? Is there any way I could talk to them? Or?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1294.0,1364.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1365.0,1367.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I mean, because you told me that they were for it. Yeah. And they abstained because they were government employees.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1368.0,1373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yes, we recorded their votes as being abstentions for that purpose because they there was no sense in putting them in some jeopardy that was unnecessary and that's been true all up and down the line. There's enough risk to be taken in this life without doing it unnecessarily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1374.0,1400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Are they still on the board?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1401.0,1407.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I'm trying to think who ... I know who one of them was, I'm trying to think who the other one was, Millie Paylock was one, she's not on the, an active elder now. Who would the other one have been ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1408.0,1436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well ... I don't remember ... I know this seems so obscure now doesn't it? It's just that in describing what happened I, you know, I said what you had said, gave them the hearsay. And he said, what did they say? He's got me running around trying to verify if certain massacres happened or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1437.0,1458.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, you can just call Millie, and see. I know one of the persons, so ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1459.0,1463.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: that's fine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1464.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: 7472598","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1481.0,1486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Does she still work for the government?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1487.0,1488.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. She's retired now. She was working at VA Hospital. And her husband is retired military.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1489.0,1500.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. How did Manzo end up, how did it become defunct? Was Margo run out of town?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1501.0,1512.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. Manzo became defunct, because I mean Manzo has become defunct three or four times in its history. Just basically because Margo does not care about administrative things. And about budgets and about. She cares about needs and issues and people. And so if the two ever come in conflict, she just doesn't do things like, like, reapply for grants, or file reports that are necessary to get grant payments made. Or to think through, well, if if we spend all the money from the grant in the first two months, what are we going to do for the rest of the year? If If human need compels her to just go ahead and do that sort of thing, she does it and worries about the other questions later, which usually mean that that administratively and financially Manzo just collapses from time to time under her directorship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1513.0,1588.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So when she left to go away to law school, it kinda petered out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1589.0,1594.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: when she left to go to law school you know, what happened was that there was no financial base for continuing Manzo. And, and everybody was so exhausted at that point, I think it had been [INAUDIBLE] and involved with that effort, that they just did not have the energy to resurrect it at that point. And I think that, well, I think you oughtta talk to some of the folks, I mean I think you oughtta talk to Lupe and ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1595.0,1636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I did talk to Lupe and I found her to be kind of defensive to me about Margo. I wasn't, you know, I don't think I was asking her personal questions or anything, but the whole attitude was just like, oh, there's some another writer, I have to get rid of. But I actually did have a long interview with her. So I should go back and listen to the tape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1637.0,1662.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I mean, that's my impression is that, and Manzo, had collapsed in terms of finance ... financing, and ... And the bond-out effort ... ministry of effort ... was shifted to the TEC? Yeah, we got we got that responsibility that we had to pick up at that point, or else the whole legal defense effort would have would have been in deep trouble. But by that point, I think in history TEC was willing to do that. Because the relationship with Manzo around some of those issues of administration and financing and all those kinds of things had become just just very, very difficult in terms of, of that relationship. And, and I think it was almost a sense of relief on everybody's part that TEC, that it developed and administered a legal defense program without getting into the pulls and tugs that we had had historically in terms of Manzo ... And I think that the on Manzo's part, they were just real glad to have reached the point where they didn't have to carry the world on their shoulders. And drag TEC and the rest of the world kicking and screaming into critical life and death issues they had been involved in since 1980. So I think at that point it was a good move all the way around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1663.0,1774.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, well, that sounds like more of a natural evolution than some big upheaval.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1775.0,1781.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I think that's the thing that is most satisfying to me is that it did occur as a natural evolution and there wasn't a break or a big blow up or anything like that. While we had really strained relationships, a whole lot of times through that, that we held it together for the sake of the legal defense effort and because we understood that we couldn't allow it to blow up. Because there would have been an enormous number of refugees who would be in real jeopardy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1782.0,1815.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Is that kind of ... what's going on with the Chicago Task Force is it similar to that? (Sure.) The effort is more important than the ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1816.0,1826.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: of course. And if it ever does blow up it means that one, the effort isn't worth it anymore. The need isn't so critical anymore. So we might as well have at the more fun debates. Or it means that one or the other of us in Tucson or Chicago has forgotten what is important, and has lost it all together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1827.0,1856.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So everything's still going along the same ... Are you still doing coordinating?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1857.0,1866.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: still doing what we need to do together and talking to each other. And absolutely disagreeing with each other. Working together where we can.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1867.0,1883.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I think it's good that all the public debate anyway, subsided.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1884.0,1891.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, no, I think the public debate is terrific. (You do?) Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1892.0,1897.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You don't think ... they think it helps the government.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1898.0,1899.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Oh, I know. I know, that's bullshit. (Put's wedges.) No, no. I mean, that's, that's always the last bottom line of authoritarian folks, of either the right or the left, is, well, you can't have that kind of public disagreement. You certainly can't have a public debate because it helps the enemy and therefore you gotta, you gotta, you gotta stomp out that kind of stuff. Well, you know, my perspective is precisely the opposite. Because the enemy is always authoritarianism that wants to stomp out the public debate. And that's what always cripples us, in the long run, in the short run, that may be true for for a brief period of time. But in the long run, the real enemy is a kind of authoritarianism, from either the right or the left that wants to stomp out debate and thinks that information is dangerous, or that disagreement is dangerous. And, and so yeah, I Chicago is always tells me you can't talk about that in public. Or you can't say that to reporters or you can't talk about that with people because it just helps the government. I think it's absolute nonsense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1900.0,1974.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I agree. Although on the other hand, I mean, that's kind of more of the Quaker approach. Go ahead without some sort of formal organized structure where there's going to be someone in charge and everybody else. I mean an official spokesperson or something that do I mean, maybe the movement ... do you think it's possible that they may be right, in some sense? that it would be better for the movement to be some formal organized ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=1975.0,2010.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. And if I thought so I'd take the initiative and go organize it. (Yeah.) I think that we do need more organization. Nobody has ... We have not disagreed with that premise. It's what kind of organization that we have a disagreement about. And and it's, I think the disastrous part of the Tucson-Chicago debate is it has crippled the sanctuary movement from organizing the way it should since 1985. In '85 everyone [INAUDIBLE] at the meeting here, the symposium here, that we needed better networking and better system of communications. And that we needed to organize to bring that about in really effective ways. And since then, neither one has happened. And it's basically because of the crippling effect of that debate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2011.0,2070.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean, it's still haven't hasn't been resolved? It's just sort of reached an impasse as to how to organize.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2071.0,2081.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: you know, I mean it's difficult. My own perspective is that Chicago and folks who think that we ought to organize it in a hierarchical way and, and have a central committee that develops policy, and names spokespersons for the sanctuary movement and organizes it politically. That those folks have been, continued to be, so insistent that that be what happens that we have not been able to organize in other ways, in terms of organizing the communication system and networking system that would be effective. And we're going to have one more go round with that in March. There's another big meeting. Where's it gonna be? Los Angeles, it's not a public meeting, just representatives of the different regions who are gonna sit down and hammer out this set of issues one more time. And I hope that ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2082.0,2154.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: This were the previously elected ... part of, a part of the NCC or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2155.0,2159.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, it came out of the NCC meeting in Washington in September, they were once again crippled and couldn't do anything in the meeting in Washington in September, so they said, kind of threw up their hands and said, What we need is people to get together and hack these issues out. And this is the next attempt to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2160.0,2185.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: well, I guess that's kind of ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2186.0,2187.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: So what what my perspective is that, yeah, we we do need to be organized, but we don't need to be organized in the same way that Chicago would like to have it organized, what we need to do is organize an open and effective communication system and an open and effective networking system to get information quickly disseminated and differences in discussions disseminated quickly throughout the sanctuary network and among the congregations. But beyond that, we don't need to be organized.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2188.0,2228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: and Chicago isn't willing to be that, to do that role of being sort of a clearing house or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2229.0,2235.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: they're not, they're not capable of doing that, because of their very strong belief in their position so they're unable to, I think they're incapable of fostering or enabling an open system of communication, because of their overwhelming need to present their point of view.  They have a higher degree of certainty about their, the correctness of their position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2236.0,2278.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: For a while it looked like Basta! was publishing all viewpoints or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2279.0,2282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, it did look like that until the point at which they refused to publish some things in June. And then we said, that's fine. If you want Basta! to be a house organ and just give your point of view. And the reason was they said, they thought it would be harmful to sanctuary movement to have great differences. (Well, that was the reason why they wouldn't release the mailing list.) And then we ask them for the mailing list. Okay, we'll just send it out to your mailing list. You know, what we think what our position is, that's fine, you publish Basta! and we'll send out our disagreements, fine. They wouldn't give us a mailing list, because that would be harmful to the sanctuary movement in their thinking, well, at that point, you know, it was real clear they, they were incapable of doing that. So that's when we, at that point, we moved to resolve that by creating a national communications council that would do communication in an open and, and unedited fashion for the sanctuary movement. And they have been unable to do that. For whatever reason. There are a number of factors [INAUDIBLE]. But since January of '85, they have been unable to pull that off and that's that's the need we have now and have had since since '84 as a movement. We need to get that done. Should have had it for the last three years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2283.0,2381.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: so that that's not really the focus of your energy at this point, you're still ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2382.0,2389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: oh, no, there are much more important things to ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2390.0,2393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What's going on with the refugee flow?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2394.0,2396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, the refugee's flow has been very much diminished, much, much more this fall. And, and that's basically because of the changed conditions in Salvador and Guatemala. As a result of that, we're spending most of our energy as a congregation, much more so in sending people down to Salvador. And to be a part of the program. To, to really have sanctuary be the sanctuary of North Americans presence in the refugee camps. The Resettlement effort down there, then we are in terms of providing sanctuary for folks here, I think it's been it's been some time since we've actually done a border crossing at least a matter of three or four weeks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2397.0,2452.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Their just aren't that many?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2453.0,2453.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: The folk, the folk who would have been the folk we would have assisted would have been high risk folks, there's enough of an open, now, political opinion in Salvador and Guatemala right at this moment and has been for six months or so, that they can stay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2454.0,2476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean the tortures and murders and disappearances have gone down?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2477.0,2480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Gone down to such an extent that it's an acceptable risk to most of the highly committed organized people right now to stay. (I wonder why. What's the ... ) Well, it's a it's a clear political trade off. And military trade off on the part of the Reagan administration and, and the militaries in Salvador and Guatemala. The whole thing of the Reagan administration is to say we're bringing democracy to Central America. And, and in order to get the colonels and generals to go along with that they've pumped in major increases in military aid. And they've agreed to cut it down to-- and also we have trained in a much more sophisticated strategies of repression. You know, we've said to them, you don't need to kill 800 people a month, if you kill eight a month, you can accomplish the same thing. And that's what they're doing. But the difference between killing eight a month and killing 800 a month, is that, that for folk, generally, in Salvador and Guatemala, it is an acceptable risk to stay and try to be part of the 792 that aren't killed. Now, in the new situation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2481.0,2562.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You meantheir intelligence is better, so they can target people better?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2563.0,2566.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: of course, it's much more surgical. And also is much more sophisticated in that it, that it targets a small number of people, but a sufficient number of to keep the repression in place, and people anxious, and always fearful, and even is sophisticated enough to understand that you may even produce and generate more anxiety that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2567.0,2596.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Right, because that just backfires.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2597.0,2599.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You get a large number of people that go to the  mountains with guns, and increase. [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2600.0,2609.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So the war is kind of a stalemate now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2610.0,2612.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: war is a real stalemate. Everybody agrees that the war in Salvador is a real stalemate that that both sides are planning to carry on for the next twenty years, and are committed to doing it and the question now is, can can a third force be organized and developed in Salvador to say, a pox on both your houses. And to really try to bring about some politically negotiated peaceful solution. And that's, that's a real open question. But it's one that we're interested in participating in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2613.0,2652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: what about I mean is the church still really active there, and trying to be a ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2653.0,2656.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: You betcha, you betcha. But there's a new kind of force emerging between the church and labor unions and the university. That is that is trying to present some alternative to both of the military projects that are going on to determine the future of El Salvador. And whether that can be successful or not, is still an open question. My guess at this point is that the military colonels and generals at some point will try to kill that out, like they do every other reform movement and and that's the point at which we're gonna start seeing a lot more refugees.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2657.0,2721.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Are you seeing refugees from other places? What's the situation with the Contra war?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2722.0,2729.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: A few in Honduras. Because the repression has a kind of cyclical pattern in Honduras now it's not widespread or anything, but nevertheless it exists. And we're seeing some Nicaragua. Although the folk in South Texas see many more Nicaraguans than we do here just because of traditional migration paths. Nicaraguans, as oppossed to Salvadorians and Guatemalans. Salvadorians and Guatemalans go to LA, and Nicaraguans go to New Orleans and Miami. That's where the communities have always migrated to, for some reason.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2730.0,2767.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And the Guatemalans, things have sort of settled down in Guatemala too?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2768.0,2771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Things have have certainly settled down from '82 through '84","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101#t=2772.0,2774.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189101/transcript/63012/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/012/original/azu_ms433-011_side1_a_edited.vtt?1704474136","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/012/original/azu_ms433-011_side1_a_edited.vtt?1704474136"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - azu_ms433-011_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2784.312,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/189/102/original/azu_ms433-011_side2_a.mp3?1685571059","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2784.312,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-011_side2_a edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: But is again, much more reduced number of killings and disappearances. But again, you know, enough so that we're seeing some folks but not nearly the numbers and and also the numbers are so reduced that it is an acceptable risk to increasing numbers of Guatemalans to stay and try to continue to organize, and try to bring about some change internally. So you're seeing this whole dynamic set up that is very tenuous, so extraordinarily tenuous, that that, you know, the scale, the balance can tip from day to day either way. But, but overall, right now, we're in one of those periods of time when, when everybody is kind of just very tenuously moving ahead and staying out and holding on. And that's a very tenuous point. But everybody is walking into the future, hopefully, but not optimistically. And, and who knows, where we'll go from there. I do know that the historic pattern in Central America in both Guatemala and Salvador has been, you know, times when there's that kind of political opening normally results in an enormous period of repression, shortly after, the political opening is always to take away the pressure for substantial reform and revolution and then the repression is always the solution of the military to [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=0.0,108.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you think that's what they're gearing up for?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=109.0,112.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, I think so. I have no way of predicting that. But but we have fairly good sources inside Salvador and Guatemala now, in terms of what, what's going on behind the scenes. And all of the signs right now are that, that the Salvadoran military is about to tell the United States embassy, to hell with 'em, and go ahead on their own program, which will be [INAUDIBLE] because things are getting out of control.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=113.0,149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: They are. Yeah I saw the students who threw stuff at Duarte and I thought, boy that's pretty radical.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=150.0,160.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yes, Duarte is probably the most isolated person in Salvador right now, in fact there was a very strong rumor. I still have not been able to substantiate it. But it was a widespread rumor that Duarte had gone to the US embassy and told them he quit. Within the last month. (He's really been hung out to dry.) Of course, and, and they persuaded him to hang in. But but he is he is absolutely ... I mean the only place he can go to say I quit is the US Embassy, they're the only people who support him. That's a sign of how desperate he is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=161.0,208.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: (Yeah, poor guy. I don't know, I don't feel sorry for him.)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=209.0,215.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, I feel sorry for him in a way. I mean because I think Duarte acted under decent instincts. I mean he really believed that what he was doing was for the Salvadoran people and it was the only way that some reforms could be brought about, some change accomplished, that the United States wouldn't allow it anymore. And that he was saving a lot of lives in the model of General Jaruzelski in Poland who believed that, that if he didn't move, and and cooperate in the repression of solidarity in Poland, the Russians were invade and kill tens of thousands of Poles, and that he was saving tens of thousands of Polish lives. There are people who share that opinion. I think Duarte was trying to play the same card in Salvador. I think he was wrong. I think he was tragically wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=216.0,272.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, yeah, because he and Guillermo Ungo split.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=273.0,276.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's right. I think Ungo was right. And history will determine that Ungo had clearer vision than Duarte had. But that doesn't mean Duarte [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=277.0,311.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What's going on with the legislative end in this country?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=312.0,315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well I think we have a very good chance, extraordinarily good chance. I think if we don't get [INAUDIBLE] both the Senate and House, somebody oughtta kick our fannies and send us back to organizing school. I think Reagan is going to veto it. (Yeah.) And we don't, [INAUDIBLE] whatever that is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=316.0,346.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So that's gonna come up in this session?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=347.0,348.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I think probably March we'll have a vote probably April because everything's going much more slowly now. Because of the Contra-gate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=349.0,359.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I was hoping that that was gonna, everyone was sounding the death knell for the Contras and all that stuff. (Oh, yeah, they are.) No one told Reagan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=360.0,369.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, no. Well, I mean, nobody's told him and what everybody else knows. And that is, he's finished.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=370.0,376.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I don't know, I think it, what you said about him gearing up for a major re ... you know they're gonna put the pressure on Central America a lot more strongly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=377.0,400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah. But like Gorman, even Paul Gorman testified before Congress, that the Contras were not going to do anything, no matter what. If they gave them another $200 million, the Contras could not do anything about the Sandinistas. And, and so you're talking about the guy who was the chief architect of Central America strategy","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=401.0,428.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, the head of Southern Air Command","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=429.0,430.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, Southern Command. When he's telling Congress, hey, I don't care if you give the Contras another $200 million, we now know they're a useless bunch of ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=431.0,441.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, what happened all that money they got from the Iran arms and [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=442.0,445.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: All in Miami. All invested in the condos.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=446.0,451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well the big scandal that I, still has to come out that I read in one of these Central America report or something is that they would, they were selling drugs in this country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=452.0,462.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: They were running arms down and drugs back. (And Oliver North knew about it.) Of course North knew about. So did half of the United States Senate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=463.0,472.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: That they were selling drugs? But they're always so outraged. And this is such a ... we didn't know, we didn't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=473.0,479.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Bullshit. That's the German I-don't, I-didn't-know. I mean, that's, that's the real tragedy about Central America. And about all the things that have happened is, is that all those I-don't-knows now are the German I-don't-know. The hell they didn't know. Anybody ... I knew!And you knew, Miriam. (Yeah, well we're not ...) So did, so did half of the half of the United States know. To imagine that the highest people in this administration did not know. I mean, the only one that can get away with that is Ronald Reagan. I genuinely believe he doesn't know. But he doesn't know much. I mean, he doesn't know what his schedule is from day to day. But the rest of them, Ollie North to George Shultz, well I'm not sure Shultz knew. Elliot Abrams sure knew. I mean, that level in the administration that they all knew and half of the United States Senate and at least half the House of Representatives knew. And anybody who tells you they didn't is just plain lying. Because you knew you knew two years ago about the drug connection to the Contras.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=480.0,548.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: but I, I'm so much more naturally skeptical or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=549.0,553.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, but you need to understand ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=554.0,556.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I mean about authority figures.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=557.0,558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, that's not a matter of skepticism or not, it's just a matter of did they know did they have that information before them? And the answer is of course they did. Of course they did. So there's gonna be a lot of that German bullshit about, Well, I didn't know. Nonsense. The only one who can get away with it accurately is Reagan. CIA knew, I think Shultz and others ... but I know for sure Elliot Abrams knew. And I know damn well Ollie North and Poindexter knew and you you know that the CIA operatives knew because they were, they were clearing the flights. And they and they knew exactly where the flights went, were going from Ilopango, they knew that they were going to Costa Rica and Colombia from there and then coming back up. And they knew exactly the route, because they were clearing those flights.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=559.0,622.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I'm sure they all knew. What am I saying? Okay, I guess that's it. Oh, there ... I wanted to ask you little bit about Cruz, when you got the indictment and thought it was him was it just, Oh, of course I knew all along.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=623.0,641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, we had discussions. long discussions, we devoted a couple of entire meetings in August and early September of '84 to Cruz and Graham and the possibility of [INAUDIBLE]. And the reason was that that refugees that they had transported over the summer had told us those guys are very suspicious. We know orejas when we see them. From our experience in Central America. And they're asking the wrong questions. So we sat down with that, that feedback from refugees, and said, What do we do about this? And basically, the conclusion was, what we do is screen them off from any direct contact with refugees anymore. And any information about when border crossings are going to take place and time. And they're just not getting involved in that anymore. And if you look at the transcript of the trial from about the end of August, they didn't get involved ... but also, the decision ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=642.0,712.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But Sister Darlene it seemed like was still pretty open to them, was she ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=713.0,716.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, no, she was real, I mean, she was the one who was most convinced that they were informants. So she had more, the most number of counts. And they just convicted on the most number of counts? That was over the summer though. I mean, that was that was in June and July. [INAUDIBLE] But but by August, she was more convinced than any of the rest of us.  I was the one who was saying, yeah, they may be But how the hell are we going to know? And we still gotta be the church. But what ... So the compromise that was worked out, was okay, we'll screen them off from any direct contact with refugees here in Tucson. And in any information about specific border crossings will not be discussed in their presence. And so from that time on, they just didn't get close to any of the immigrants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=717.0,772.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Do you have regrets about not cutting them out earlier?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=773.0,776.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No. If I had known they were informants, I wouldn't have changed anything. I just wouldn't. [EXTRANEOUS BACKGROUND CONVERSATION].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=777.0,826.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: so what about your probation? How's it going? Any problems?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=827.0,829.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Yeah, the problem is [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah, I read that. And that's a major problem. Because I need to not only go there. But I need to provide that kind of leadership to this congregation in terms of [INAUDIBLE] and that's turning into a real problem. (Have you been there before?) Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=830.0,865.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And the church has someone down there now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=866.0,869.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, no one right now but but we had a whole group that just got back. And we'll be sending folks down again in March.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=870.0,879.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Maybe you can keep trying again, keep petitioning him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=880.0,883.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I know. I'm not gonna do it publicly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=884.0,885.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because he didn't want the public ... the Christmas ties. He just didn't want you guys to look that good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=886.0,890.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Sure. So we're gonna just sit down with him [INAUDIBLE]. What if we agree not to say anything publicly about going down there [INAUDIBLE]. I don't know what's gonna happen, but I ... it is, that's the only problem. (What about Peggy? Is she, she wanting to go too?) Peggy wanted to go too but she's got a couple other trips coming up, one to Nicaragua and one to Brazil, which she's uncertain about now, for her responsibilities for the Methodist Church. So basically ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=891.0,923.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So he was gonna let her go to Nicaragua?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=924.0,926.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: No, well, she, we don't know. But, but basically, it's the first time and the only time so far that it's gotten in the way of [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=927.0,938.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Need to fill out a monthly report? You can't play with guns?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=939.0,944.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: That's just aggrevation. That doesn't affect anything of substance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=945.0,949.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: They're not still watching you? Do you think they are?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=950.0,953.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Let them watch me. I'm not doing anything I'm not saying I'm doing, publicly. So so they're not gonna. I mean, what the hell's the difference? Am I working with refugees? Yes, I'm working with refugees. Am I working with undocumented refugees? Yes, I am. Are we continuing to do sanctuary in the church? Yes, we are. For undocumented refugees? Undocumented refugees, yeah. Are you, you know ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=954.0,979.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Your probation officer doesn't come around asking you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=980.0,982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Of course. And I tell him, I tell my probation officer exactly what I'm telling you. Am I doing border crossings now? No, not unless it's necessary. Because, you know, other people are doing that. And I'm not very useful at the border, because my face is so well known. But if it becomes necessary, and there's nobody else around to do it, I will do that. It hasn't so far. I'm just telling folks, straight up what the situation is. Am I working with folks who are doing the border crossings now? Yes, I am. I'm trying to give them the benefit of my experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=983.0,1019.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So do you think the trial changed anything at all in terms of your ministry?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1020.0,1023.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: I hope not. If it did, then then I'm in real trouble. That's part of the whole point all the way along is that we cannot allow the government to change what we believe is essential to our ministry. We're not going to do that. If it has, I'd be drummed out of [INAUDIBLE] forcing me to resign as pastor of the church and the Presbyterian ministry. I would expect that they would do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1024.0,1048.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about the refugees, is it [INAUDIBLE] hardship for any of them? I know that Rodriguez is ... whatever the name, the ... what was, Gomez I guess is her real name? And had to go to Canada.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1049.0,1063.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Other refugee families who've gone underground. The family that [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1064.0,1071.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, they've disappeared?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1072.0,1072.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: They've gone underground. Some others have as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1073.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1080.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: [INAUDIBLE] got asylum. So they're okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1080.0,1086.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What about Elba Teresa?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1087.0,1088.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Elba Teresa has been no decision. (She was such a sad figure.) Yeah, she's applied for asylum. But I don't think [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1089.0,1102.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I heard the INS was OR'ing people, or declaring ... giving more people asylum?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1103.0,1108.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well they're not giving more people asylum, the figures are still the same, nationally. They're giving more people in Tucson and Phoenix asylum. From the time the trial started through now, we've been getting an almost 50% grant payment for political asylum here. But the figures nationally are exactly the same.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1109.0,1127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So they're proportionally other in other places that fewer people are getting it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1128.0,1132.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: So so what you have is just a blatant effort by the ins to gerrymander the asylum system around the trial and to do location [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1133.0,1152.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: There are constant protests and the judge said this too, what's ... case by case basis. So how could there be any blanket policy? I guess that the facts speak for themselves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1153.0,1164.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: The facts and statistics speak for themselves. And in fact, the GAO just issued a report in October, they did a study of INS asylum processes with regard to people from different countries. And their conclusion was [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1165.0,1181.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I'd like to see that report. Was there ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1182.0,1184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Just write the General Accounting Office? I don't have a copy here. I've given them all away, they're great. But there'll be lots of congressional testimony on that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1185.0,1198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I also heard that the UN just came out with the six worst human rights violators in the world. And it was El Salvador, Chile, Iran, Libya, Afghanistan and one other or something. So I was really glad to see that El Salvador was on there. Oppossed to this constant barrage of disinformation you get in the papers. (Of course.) It's really hard for people to resist that. Okay, I guess that's it. I suppose if you have the time, I'd like you to read it before it comes out. So I don't have any blatantly inaccurate statements.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1199.0,1247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JOHN FIFE: Well, I was gonna say, I'll be glad to read it. And tell you about any inaccuracies I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1248.0,1264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah. Okay. He wants me to get some documentation on this massacre at the airport, of returning deportees. So I don't know how I can do that ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1265.0,1274.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: well, of course, as it was presented, it was something that had been heard. The documentation I saw later, was not decisive. conclusive in that, the story was printed up and I saw it two or three months later, that is in the form of a photocopy of a newspaper clipping from some left wing paper in New York. At the time, I went to Nogales. What was his name, Parada Molina,  Enrique was it? Enriques? had received a letter from his mother warning him about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1275.0,1324.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, see, I put that in and I put, you know, Frank Shutts saying that it had happened. But as far as documentation goes ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1325.0,1332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: but I never saw documentation where, except there was this newspaper report, but it didn't cite witnesses or anything else, so that I don't know whether there is any eyewitness documentation anywhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1333.0,1348.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Is there some sort of Human Rights Office that I can get in touch with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1349.0,1352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I don't think it ever turned up with the Salvadoran Human Rights Commission.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1353.0,1357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Hmm, okay.So there really isn't ... mostly hearsay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1358.0,1360.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, it is hearsay, I think. I'd have to say it's hearsay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1361.0,1366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But I'm still trying to get that ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1367.0,1369.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I mean, as a, as a report as hearsay, that that had an influence, it had an influence, but and it's hearsay that came through several different sources of hearsay, for whatever corroborative value that might have.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1370.0,1389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, I mean, well, that's all I have, and he just said it would make it all the more stronger to say, in facts, you know, this actually occurred or something. But it's real hard to get that kind of, like I could put it I mean, 'cause that has meaning within my story. Like there, you know, like the Rio Sumpul river ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1390.0,1406.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: There was a report at a later point. I forgotten where that was, I think it may have been the Albuquerque or the Denver Post paper, where there was an account of the highway from the airport to San Salvador, describing it as the Highway of Death bodies being found there and then dumped there and left there constantly was just ... at that time, people were just getting killed all over the place. And part of that just had to do with the fact that if the people, the deportees were dumped at the airport, they had to get into town without money and if people were walking around loose, especially after curfew, they were just killed","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1407.0,1454.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Uh huh. Well that's a little different than the massacre of the people ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1455.0,1461.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: anyway, it's hearsay and at best corroborated by having filtered through several different sources. (Right). I don't know where Frank Shutts got the you know, where he had heard the report. Because this newspaper report was after that date","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1462.0,1479.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Maybe I should find, try to get a hold of him. But he, his memory isn't that good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1480.0,1485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: He's in Hermosillo these days.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1486.0,1487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, that's where I met him. Okay. Oh, that the your poem, he wanted to know if it was, he said, is this an old Quaker hymn or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1488.0,1498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, No I just, I just did it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1499.0,1503.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: When did, did you write it a long time ago, or recently?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1504.0,1507.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I had written ... No, it was fairly, of recent vintage, I'd I'd written something along that line, much of what I had there and then revised it at the time I sent out that letter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1508.0,1524.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it was pretty ... it wasn't something from years ago. It was contemporary with your ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1525.0,1529.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, it was pretty much at that general time. I was, among other things, experimenting, you'll notice with my verse that I'm always trying for these intricate relationships.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1530.0,1544.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, you are right. There was one syllable left out, it was \"helping\" instead of \"helped\". Oh, that's another ... I wanted to check with you. On some of ... I guess in quoting your, your stuff in the Arizona Librarian, I did some, a little bit of shortening and cleaning up your language. So I better check with you that it's okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1545.0,1569.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, I probably won't remember what I said well enough to ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1570.0,1571.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I've got the original. (Okay.) I can dig it out, just, I just wanna check with you and make sure it's okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1572.0,1587.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1588.0,1587.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I guess the rest of these questions have to do with the second half. I wanted to know about the, in describing the Chicago controversy, at first I put in what you'd told me about the Indian couple. I don't know if I should put that in. What do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1588.0,1605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I've been avoiding identifying Chicago with that. It appears in the Pendle Hill pamphlet. And I simply refer to it as a solidarity group back East.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1606.0,1616.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You don't think I should go ahead?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1617.0,1619.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, my preference is that it, they not be identified. However, I at the same time. I'm always reluctant, if something's true, to say don't say it. So I just leave it up to your judgment and the way it fits.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1620.0,1636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It's so hard, it sounds, you know, without some concrete, specific incident, it seems like you know you can't really ground the ... it's just, it's just all words you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1637.0,1649.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah. Well, use your judgment on that. It is true that that incident was what really kind of woke us up to the basic differences between us. And it is an incident that independently has been brought up by John Fife, by me, by I think one or two others when illustrating. In other words, it wasn't something where one of us said it and then another picked up on it. It was a real traumatic sort of thing for all of us to have that happen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1650.0,1682.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Have you ever talked about it since, with the people in Chicago?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1683.0,1688.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I haven't. I think that Michael McConnell may have told John that at the Washington meeting, that everyone felt bad about it, and they wished that we'd not talk about it anymore.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1689.0,1704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: we'll see they're always saying don't talk about any differences, don't bring out any problems. We have to present a united front. And all that stuff. Okay, well, I don't know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1705.0,1718.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: So use your judgment. It's, you know, it's true. So, if it, you know, my comments are are admittedly from a more of a network point of view. And I don't think that that should override it, if you feel that's, you know, to the point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1719.0,1747.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: well, they already I mean, I I'm talking with John the other day, you're still trying to work out better organization, you're gonna have a meeting,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1748.0,1756.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well there ... I don't know that we are. That is it's taken the form, of, that rules out Quaker sensibilities already. They're gonna have people assembling to vote. (Oh, okay.) So, as far as I'm concerned, it's already ruled out. You know, if you go and you vote that tacitly says yes, I'm entering into this. Presbyterians get along with that form.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1757.0,1785.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah. See, John thinks that it was fine. As long as it was horizontal as long as there wasn't ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1786.0,1791.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well its not horizontal if you vote. You're immediately ruling out whatever minority there is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1792.0,1796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, but you have to have some sort ... what are they gonna vote on, though?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1797.0,1800.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, that's just it. The only thing you can vote. (On policies, or ...) Well, that's all you can vote on. If its consultation, there's no reason to rule out anyone's opinion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1801.0,1808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah. I thought it was the whole idea was to setup a kind of network a communications network?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1809.0,1815.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, that was the idea. But the fact is that the form that's been imposed on it was quite consistently been a form that starts with voting, which means you're starting with the policymaking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1816.0,1824.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean they vote,  they elect someone to go represent them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1825.0,1827.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: They're supposed to. It doesn't really happen that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1828.0,1831.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it's still the same MCC people?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1832.0,1834.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Basically, as far as I know, unless there has been some change I don't know about. I hope to see John later on today and ask him. It sounds like they're not having a genuine consultation, in that, unless they've changed radically, they continue to have voting where an opinion will come out of this where the minority is not going to be heard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1835.0,1860.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I guess they figure that's the only way to ... to, because it seemed like for years, there's been stalemate between Tucson and Chicago,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1861.0,1871.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Presbyterians tend to see it that way. If we can win, let's go vote and knock them out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1872.0,1880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You mean that's a horizontal structure?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1881.0,1883.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: You know, yeah, except that it's not horizontal when you're voting. You immediately have a principle of hierarchical coercive operation in the very way that you're deciding. And so, you know, as far as I see it, I'll say what I see from a Quaker point of view, whether other Quaker meetings agree with me or not, remains to be seen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1884.0,1910.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, the big question I have is whether this, people who are going to be at the meeting adequately represent all the sanctuary community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1911.0,1917.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: There is no ... you know, Pima Meeting hasn't even been informed of it. Or, as far as I know, most other sanctuary congregations. It's just whatever activists assemble and decide they're going to do something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1918.0,1929.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, it's too bad that John is going for that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1930.0,1931.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well I, you know, I think he sees it as this has a long term problem, and Presbyterians do believe in coercion of minorities by majorities, and he knows that he can win. So that's really what it's what's happening, I think. I'm making a lot of assumptions here that I have to check out. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1932.0,1954.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: well, you know, he was telling me the other day that they want some sort of better networking, better communications. They've needed it since '84 at least. And I guess he figures this is the only way to do it. So, that's the, what's happening with the movement right now, huh? they're doing that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1955.0,1980.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, as far as I know, it's got that problem in it. As I say, I need to get in touch with John and find out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1981.0,1991.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: oh, I had written that, you know, that in the jury selection you'd excluded an ex CIA agent. And the editor said Was it JJ Angleton was the name that he had? That must be some ex CIA agent in town?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=1992.0,2009.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, I don't remember that as being the name. And it was a presumed CIA agent. He had worked in Laos, Cambodia. He was a Major actually but our assumption,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2010.0,2024.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: With Intelligence?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2025.0,2026.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, he didn't go into it you know, he, he indicated that what he was doing was such that it took him all over and I've forgotten what his testimony was, but it gave a clear indication he was Intelligence, possibly CIA if he was doing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2027.0,2044.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: This was in the early 60s or something before the ...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2045.0,2047.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, it was in the middle of the Vietnam War. It could have been army intelligence or something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2048.0,2056.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, and then in the second half, I also identify the Coronado National Monument. I guess I shouldn't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2057.0,2061.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: As what, as a place where people ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2062.0,2064.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Where the Naco Five incident took place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2065.0,2068.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, that's, I mean, the government certainly knows that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2069.0,2071.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Right, I guess its a little late to protect them. And then I had also written this thing about,  remember you told me that these trails down there were used by Yaqui smugglers. (Oh, yeah.) He wants some sort of independent confirmation, is there some book about the area or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2072.0,2090.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: About the, about the mezcal smuggling? Wh my my information was from Charlie Morgan, who was a prospector, who had claims right up next to the Crest Trail, lived in Ash Canyon down below and served two terms for moonshining himself. That was my primary source.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2091.0,2117.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Is he still alive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2118.0,2118.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT:  No, he died a number of years ago, he lived in ash Canyon. He was born in Bisbee, and ... a real ole' timer. The, I did, I've have heard the same account from other people. I can't remember who, who it would have been. Most of them probably dead by now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2119.0,2146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I get mad that he won't take your word at face value.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2147.0,2147.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, I've also I've also talked with Mexicans when I was trailing horses up at the Rancho Martinez, which used to be one of the ranches in the Green Cattle Company group up about 10 or 15 miles outside of Cananea, who mentioned the mezcal smuggling days. So it's something that's known among or was known among folks pretty generally, but I don't know that anyone ever wrote about it. A good story. I guess that's why he wanted me to mention it. Okay, well, it seems to me pretty, just common knowledge or whatever. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2148.0,2196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. Your ... what is the current treatment of Salvadorans by the INS? They're OR'ing them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2197.0,2213.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: They are OR'ing large numbers of them for budgetary reasons, and I don't know what, what percentages currently. They're OR'ing most of them until the October budget started. And then they continue to OR I think that Amy could give you some idea of what what numbers they're getting. But I don't know. Or you might just call Bill Johnston and see if he'll ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2214.0,2244.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay and what about Guatemalans and the Nicaraguans?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2245.0,2247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: it's I think it's the same with any Central Americans. They seem just to, you know, as far as the Border Patrol and INS are concerned, it's just a budgetary thing. They don't have space. Or money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2248.0,2261.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It's not a political ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2262.0,2263.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: as far as I know it. I think there was some report in the paper here a few months back by, you know, where they interviewed someone with the border patrol or someone about it. And I think the indications were that it was budgetary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2264.0,2279.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, there was, that guy in Florida was releasing Nicaraguans for humanitarian reasons.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2280.0,2284.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah that was something else ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2285.0,2289.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay. It was, he said that, you know the editor was telling me there seems to be this pattern of discrimination, and you need to make much more of it. And I'm wondering if there's, I mean most ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2290.0,2305.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, against Salvadorians? (Yeah.) There's a GAO report that Amy may have at the TEC office that came out recently that comments on the pattern discrimination. And there was also a memo written by the INS itself back in the about '81 or so that mentions the, that has a an item on page I think 83 or 81, something like that. Referring to the difference between Poles and Salvadorans and this was written by the second in command at the INS it was one of their top officials. And it is cited in that Frontline documentary where they throw it up against Abrams and Abrams really fudges. You might get some good lines if you look at documentary you know, that Frontline did back in '82, was it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2306.0,2363.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I met the producer of it, Hector Galan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2364.0,2366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh yeah. And he did a, he did a good job and he was the one who first broke that memo. And then he was he faced down Elliott Abrams with it or whoever was doing the interview and it really you know if you see it on the TV, it comes across very clear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2367.0,2385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: It was a good thing. Glad they did it. So currently the refugee flow is way down. I mean, what's your knowledge of that? Because John was telling me they hadn't had a run in three weeks or something, it was real slow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2386.0,2394.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: the the high risk refugee, the protocol refugees are way down, you know, just a reduced number, we have a little surge going through now. We've got a run going on today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2395.0,2412.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, it had been slow. And there's, there's a whole series that we're going to be doing, or TRSG is doing it, but, yeah it had been slow. And you don't know whether this surge is going to continue or just how it's going to ... Do you think it's seasonal or relates to the situation in Salvador?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2413.0,2434.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: it could be halfway seasonal. There was a similar lull about this time, you know, right after Christmas. Last year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2435.0,2443.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And what's going on in Salvador, now? They've got their, uh. They're not as indiscriminate in their killing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2444.0,2451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, yeah, that's definitely the case. I think I have a copy of something that I wrote with me. But anyway, they definitely there isn't the indiscriminate killing that was going on in the '80, '83 period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2452.0,2471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because of U.S. training? Is that the difference? Was there better intelligence?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2472.0,2475.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, my estimate is that at that time, they were desperate. I shouldn't get a copy of that for you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2476.0,2482.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You have it here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2483.0,2484.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, it's it's at the AFSC office. It's a sequence. It's two legal size sheets printed on both sides. And they had a letter that I wrote in December plus an abbreviation of my Pendle Hill supplement that I used at Pendle Hill, not, it's not in the pamphlet, but it's a supplement to it. And it kind of outlines the differences that happened. And definitely my opinion is that the Salvadoran and Guatemalan governments are now confident that they can suppress rebellion by means of troops that are recruited from the populace itself. Whenever that is happening, you don't have a revolutionary situation. In other words, opposition, armed opposition simply results in further entrenchment of the military rule. Now, back in '80, '81, '82, '83, the government, the Salvadoran government really thought it might lose it, you know that, because whether you're viewing it from right or left, everyone knows that the only successful revolutions are those where the troops just quit fighting, or even turn against the government. And this, many people think, I think, as well, was the reason that Archbishop Romero was murdered. It was just almost immediately after, you know, a day or two after he had said to the troops and the police, quit killing, don't obey orders to kill. Well, that might actually have made the difference. Back then. Now, the troop, the troops are pretty much under government command. And as long as that's true, the government can be much more laid back. In other words, it can rule. It can rule through terror. It doesn't have to substitute for rule-through-terror, terrorism itself, which is an abdication of rule basically, where you just try to make people huddled in their houses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2485.0,2636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And that always backfires. Because it gives them the people don't have anything to lose anymore,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2637.0,2641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: you know, at a certain point, except that of course, it can work to make them huddle in their houses. And of course, it drove 10% of the population, probably those most likely to resist, out of the country during those crucial years. But anyway, that's the whole way in which terrorism is being used now with this much more surgical approach is a far more effective way that can be integrated into actual rule rather than just trying to terrorize people into into a kind of autistic state, which was what was happening in '80 to '83 period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2642.0,2679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What, I thought ORDEN was supposed to get all the peasants on the side of the ... you know, to organize them into little groups and ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2680.0,2688.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: well, they did with the paramilitary sort of thing and that, but of course that resulted in just neighbors terrorizing neighbors and, uh ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2689.0,2700.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Is that still in effect?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2701.0,2702.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: ORDEN is still there, all the death squad system is still there. However, it's, you see it in '80 to '83, it was often a lifesaver to be a member of ORDEN for a peasants. So there were lots of reasons to join. Currently, ORDEN people are often getting killed by guerrillas or guerrilla sympathizers, guerrillas basically, you know, with the executions. So those people who joined ORDEN back then and were known to be members are now in trouble. And they, of course, that was the case with this particular Naco Five group. So probably there's, there's been a shift in terms of structure as far as the willingness of peasants and others to participate in these paramilitary groups that were always under the direction of the Treasury, police, the National Guard and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2703.0,2764.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, this book makes a big deal about the, of course you know, since it's about nuns, but it talks about the basic Christian communities in Salvador and how and that was what really frightened the government, as the Church, the church was, you know was advocating a non ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102#t=2765.0,2767.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93024/file/189102/transcript/63014/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/014/original/azu_ms433-011_side2_a_edited.vtt?1704474166","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/014/original/azu_ms433-011_side2_a_edited.vtt?1704474166"}]}]}]}