{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/5x2599zx81/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Episode 8803: John and Clara Lee Tanner"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["KPOL"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Eyewitness to History videocassettes, MS 685, box 2, tape 23"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Chanin, Abraham S., 1921- (interviewer)","Tanner, Clara Lee (interviewee)","Tanner, John F. (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1988"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAbraham (Abe) Chanin interviews anthropologists Clara Lee and John Tanner.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["U-Matic"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS685.023 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Eyewitness to History videocassettes (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Interviews"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAbraham (Abe) Chanin interviews anthropologists Clara Lee and John Tanner.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/160/230/small/azu_ms685-023_a.mp4_1653501582.jpg?1653501583","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - azu_ms685-023_a.mp4"]},"duration":1650.24,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/160/230/small/azu_ms685-023_a.mp4_1653501582.jpg?1653501583","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/160/230/original/azu_ms685-023_a.mp4?1653501568","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":1650.24,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["MS685-023 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Welcome to eyewitness to history, your personal trip through history. A trip through history as we experienced it, and remember it a trip through Living History. Professor HN, who was a veteran of a half century of Arizona journalism will be your God. You will visit some of the state's most important personalities and your neighbors who are eyewitnesses to history. Today's guests are John and Clara Lee Tanner, authorities on South West Indian arch.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=16.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Welcome to eyewitness to history. Our guest today, without a doubt, the most knowledgeable couple in the arts and crafts of Southwest Indians. Clearly Tanner was a student first at the University of Arizona, and then a professor of anthropology at the University of Arizona. John traitor. John Tanner was a traitor to the southwest and us for many years, and then had desert house crafts. I would like to begin with you clearly because I understand that you came within two years of being a native born to Sona. And is that true?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=106.0,142.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That is right. I was born in North Carolina. And my folks came out when I was two years old.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=143.0,149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How was it they came to Arizona and when they're ready was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=150.0,152.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 90 No seven. And theoretically it was for my mother's health. And she had better health and anyone else I ever knew.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=153.0,164.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Now, how did you turn to field of archaeology and anthropology.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=165.0,168.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: In my freshman year I took an elective course. Anthropology, general anthropology and the bug with me. And who is your teacher? Dr. Byron Cummings. Wonderful, wonderful instructor and Gilman. And from I was majoring in English. I went on majoring in English but also majored in anthropology, archaeology it was in those days,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=169.0,198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Dr. Cummings was one of the great figures of archaeology. And even today, his work stands as landmark in many areas. Indeed it does. And I'm interested, having read some of the stories of field trips in the early days, I'd like you to tell us it was not easy going out in those days in the field. Well, that's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=199.0,219.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: a little bit different from later on. Usually, we had very simple accommodations, if we were lucky, we'd have a tent. Frequently we did not. We put our bed rolls down wherever we landed, sand rock, I recommend rock over sand. And I remember one summer and on a field trip. Contrary to the present where they have showers and all the rest of it. We had a tin tub and a Saturday night bath. And accommodations were along that line all the way. But it was great fun not knowing any better. We enjoyed what we had.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=220.0,264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Tell me what was the fascination that that you had and looking back to the early history of those people who who habituated this area. What was your fascination?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=265.0,275.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, I think that perhaps the most interesting thing was that they were the ancestors of the living Indians. And we knew a little bit about the living Indians. And also the Southwest has a very long history of man. And, in fact, the longest history of man in this in the state in the North America. South American continents, because man came here early and settled down, we do have comparable early men elsewhere, but not the continuous occupation. And I think the fact that here were these wonderful remains prehistoric people, many of them so well preserved. Maybe that's when the basket bug bit me because to find whole baskets,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=276.0,325.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you know, in back hundreds of years, hundreds of years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=326.0,328.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And then of course, since that the only time they have discovered baskets, which are 7000 8000 years old,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=329.0,336.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I want to ask you to when when you read the days of the Spaniards coming into the area, they didn't talk about Indians who have beautiful baskets and had great architecture, they talked about the savages. Now, when you went into the field, what was your conception? Were these people savages? What were they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=337.0,357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: to me, they were not savages at all. And of course, the Spanish were to close up on their own culture, and suddenly came upon this different culture. Having had beginning with general anthropology and studying primitive peoples around the world, one becomes fully aware that man goes through certain stages, including us. And those Spaniards who came were too far removed from a much more primitive stage themselves. But of course, they didn't know that. And wouldn't admit it, I wouldn't admit it. So of course, these were savages to them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=358.0,395.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: John Tanner, you went out in the field as a trader, to many tribes in the southwest. And this was in the 30s, wasn't it when you're trading now tell me about your impressions that you had a working with the Indians who were the really early artisans in, in their specialties, and basketry and weaving and and in silver?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=396.0,416.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, those days were really the greatest I think, and the economy was very poor. Indians were poor. But with all of that, they were a happy people. And they were they were nice to be with and nice to trade with. We, even in those hard pressed times, we got what we thought were terrific bargains and in the rugs, for instance, in that time, someone made a study and a Navajo woman would make about seven cents an hour weaving a rug. Well, that sounds pretty terrible right now. But you have to think of it that that was seven cents she wouldn't have had if she hadn't woven the rug. And also remember that bread was five cents a loaf back in those days,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=417.0,469.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and we were just not yet fully out of depression.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=470.0,473.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So that was a fun time. And the trader, a trader was a terribly important person. At that time, he the Indian was really confined to a very small geographic area, he didn't have transportation except on foot, or by horseback or wagon, so he didn't travel far.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=474.0,496.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And he needed needed the trader had to have the trader had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=497.0,500.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: represented a community and it was interesting to see the interplay between the trader and the Indian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=501.0,506.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We've come right back to some more of your days trading in the field with the Indian, the southwest, we'll take a break at this point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=507.0,549.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'd like to talk to both of you out about the skill skills of the Indian artisans. John. Were they always skillful people in the arts and crafts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=550.0,560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, I think they are they're people that know how to use their hands. And it's quite interesting in that you may think of, for instance, we know a painter, who was painting and doing fairly well and he decided one day Oh, I think I like to be a silversmith. So he starts making silver and it immediately it's saleable. You know, it's perfectly good. They just have this innate ability, and I think it's reflected in what they do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=561.0,592.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: They're so close to producing everything they had in life. Literally everything Homes, whatever they had around the home, all their utensils, clothing, jewelry, everything. So they still have that ability in their hands.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=593.0,608.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What is your question that has always been in my mind? Essentially, they will have baskets because they needed that in their daily life, right. But also, as you look back at the baskets that are being unearthed, they're beautiful. Why did they put beauty into there? Why didn't they simply make them utilitarian vessels like our pots of today in the store?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=609.0,630.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, I think they had an innate sense of artistry. Most Neolithic there, Neolithic people, Stone Age people. And most stone age, people have this sense. And you find the world over, that they decorated their everyday utensils, they decorated their clothing. They wanted that they needed that was part of their living. And the people themselves are reflecting the same thing today. Of course, they they have other interests, such as selling what they may, but you know, they may they make a great many things which they still use hobbies, still use baskets, in the wedding ceremony used to be one Hopi lady told me last year that she she had to make 34 to give to the women who helped her during the wedding ceremony. And of course, there's wedding ceremony sometimes last month. So you have a lot of help. But by the same token, they use certain designs on those. They also use baskets in a basket dance. So you see they're still using them themselves, as well as selling them. John, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=631.0,704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: want to ask, you know, the work of silver really came, didn't it with the arrival of the Spaniards?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=705.0,709.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, it came in the middle of the in the 1800s. And we think that the Mexicans really are responsible for starting them on. Yeah, so it's more than the Spanish. Yes, probably drifting over from the Rio Grande as blacksmiths maybe but also doing a little artwork on the side. So contrary to many people's belief, jewelry made out of silver is very recent,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=710.0,734.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: because early jewelry was mainly stone, stone, shell shell","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=735.0,738.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: items like that. And, of course, there's been this terrific change and in the whole art picture really from from the utility time when everything was made to us to a time when they would sell some things and, and what keeps it alive today is the market if there wasn't a monetary market out there, there wouldn't be any Kraftwerk. Well, there's a little maybe for ceremonial reasons clearly said continue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=739.0,765.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: But actually, I think many of the crafts have died in certain individual groups, because they themselves did not use it and did not get in on an early market. So they weren't familiar with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=766.0,779.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that. Why was it true that some tribes develop more skillfully in arts and crafts and others?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=780.0,785.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think some had greater ability. Also, I think the nature of the life of the people, for example, Apaches and Navajos were wandering people, and they develop basketry, but not pottery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=786.0,800.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So really, then you can understand the difference the hippies who are sedentary, right? homes up on top of the Masons, the plateaus, right? And so they developed the pottery because they needed it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=801.0,811.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and used it and used and even after contact, continued to use it, then they sold it. And so they've had a continuous market.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=812.0,819.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's an interesting story. I also want to talk to you about something else. We found a lot of shell. And yet we're not on the ocean.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=820.0,831.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Shell was about the only commodity traded, while shell plus little copper bells, tiny copper bells.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=832.0,837.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Where did these trade items come from? And how did they get here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=838.0,840.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, we can start back 10 12,000 years ago, with the early man, traders, these early men were the small game hunters and food gatherers, and they traded to the west coast for Shell.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=841.0,858.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So there was movement then, yes, it hadn't they hadn't. And movement, of course, was not by jets or SSPs. Or automobiles it was by foot. Oh, by so you have to think that they rather remarkable,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=859.0,871.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and yes, indeed they were and then in the sedentary period, from about the opening of the Christian era to the present time. They traded more extensively with the peoples of the Gulf of California, very little from the Gulf of Mexico. Very little, very little, and a continued West Coast trade.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=872.0,891.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So we really had inter trading of the various tribes all through that area when we would thought that that people could not have had Watch movement because of the great differences of the hardship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=892.0,901.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So the movement is amazing. Contacts are amazing. They're demonstrated and other ways to trade a shell happens to be the most important to all those people get around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=902.0,914.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Now, John, I wanted to ask you, you saw the development of the silver work. And basketry now has tremendously expensive because of the Hopis work. Are, are the items beyond proper pricing today? Or are the true values being finally given to the Indians?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=915.0,936.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, of course, they've I don't know how you establish a true value. But if it's if it will sell, we say that it's got to be all right. There are many of us, I think that feel prices have gone beyond what they should be. But you can't argue with the fact of success. There was a Navajo two girls woven Navajo rug to gray Hills type, just recently. And that sold for under $60,000. Yes. Now that rug in our opinion and opinion of others that we respect probably was worth maybe 20 $22,000, maybe 25,000. But here, this sets a new record, a new high.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=937.0,980.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We'll come back to that in just a while after we get a break because that's a fascinating part of the story. John $60,000 for Navajo rug would have been unthinkable in the time that you were working on the reservation. But are we seeing better work today in Indian arts and crafts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=981.0,1036.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes, I think in many cases, we are seeing the finest work that there's ever been. And there's such a In fact, this is an exciting time is a dramatic change taking place and that is moving from tribal art to individual art. We're getting individual craftsmen are doing their own thing. And it's it's creating some very interesting things. Look what's happening to cucina dolls. They're now really becoming sculpture, wood sculpture. And we used to think if we got 15 bucks for a doll, it was a lot of money. Well, now, the better dolls are going for six $7,000. And that's quite a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1037.0,1075.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: quite a difference. But the skill has improved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1076.0,1078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's improved, there really are sculpture, they're modeling the figure and they're doing it so beautifully. Many of them are, are carved out of one piece of wood, which which has been done in the past. But the general way is that you carve the arm SEC separate and tack it on and leg and so on, but they're really trying to, to do give evidence of being a piece of artwork as against just to craft maybe,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1079.0,1105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: fairly we know when we wandering the hills, we see the petroglyphs, signs of some Indian type of art. But Indian painting today has developed into worldwide interest. How did it get started? And how good is it today? You've done a I think the finest book on on Indian painting. Thank you. And I'd like you to tell us a little bit about how did Indian art really painting really get started and where what level it is today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1106.0,1134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The very first painting on paper was really not paint there was a trader left piece of paper on the counter. And where was this pencil? Oh, I forgotten the place. But in Arizona","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1135.0,1148.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1149.0,1148.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It was in Arizona and and this Indian sat there and just drew a train, which he'd seen an amazing thing. He it was an old fashioned train. Of course back in the 1880s smoke coming out of the stack. He showed that quite realistic. But he did a few things. And then the next incident was an archaeologist ethnologist who had some Hopis paint. Some Katrina's. Then the next incident that was in the 1890s in the first decade of this century, a school teacher at San Ildefonso gave the children in Mexico in New Mexico gave the Indian children these, what he called watercolor setups with brushes and they started painting thing that was the beginning and one of those persons became fairly well known, he did become well known because he died very young. But in the next decade, we have the real beginning. The second decade of this century was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1149.0,1212.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: this important coming out. I understand there was a school in Santa Fe government school where, where art was taken very seriously in many of the painters, I remember talking to, to some of the hippies who went to school there and develop their art.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1213.0,1228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes, Dorothy Dunn tried to keep the Indians as she thought in the traditional fashion. They've painted in flat colors, no background, no foreground, ghosts, Fred Capote put a little blob under the feet or close under the feet, not always touching. I was never sure whether that was earth or a shadow. And then from from that beginning, others branched out a little. But that early style prevailed at the Indian School in Santa Fe, Fred","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1229.0,1262.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Capote has told me that Dorothy Dunn was a major influence in his career. And I think he was probably the father of Hopi painting. He was, but I want to ask you a question. Paul dite, the artist who specialized so much in the Plains Indians, tells me that he feels that there's more of a Chinese influence on on Indian painting of the Southwest. And he thinks that they didn't teach them properly, that they pushed him in this direction more than likely to develop on their own.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1263.0,1293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, I don't think there's any Chinese influence, there's similarities. Certain things lingered in Chinese painting for a long time, which have more or less characteristic of early painting among other people. And I think that's where you get your parallel. This very fact, no background, no foreground colors,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1294.0,1315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: or where are we in, in quality of Indian painters today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1316.0,1320.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, we have a mixed group among the Indians, we have those who continue in the traditional, as a matter of fact, the young fellow took the top prize at the Santa Fe market in August. And he had a strictly traditional painting these figures marching across the vapor, no background, foreground, nothing of the sort. So I thought that was rather interesting. However, we have other individuals who've been who've been to school, Mexico, City, California, all over the country. And many of those have gone beyond the traditional. And they are now painting in various European, Western European American styles. Everything from the abstract on","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1321.0,1368.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: John, when you look at the paintings today, and you see some of the outrageous figures, I think they're outrageous figures Indians painted with green faces, and they are there. They're protesting I suppose. Well, I'm or the treatment. What What, what are your reaction to these paintings?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1369.0,1386.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, of course, painting is a wonderful thing to talk about. Because it's a very personal you know, you'd like this, you don't like it, and you're very strong in your opinion. But I think this is part of what was just said before of this movement from a tribal art to, to an individual art. The tribal art was reflected more in these paintings clearly was talking about yes, there were certain conservative style, pueblo. Now these people are out competing with any painter anywhere in the world. And so of course, if people want their work, the price goes up. They start out modestly and pretty soon they're getting pretty good price. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1387.0,1424.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you've seen tremendous change in Indian arts and crafts and cleverly Tatar and John pattern, I want to thank you very much for being with us and presenting this interesting picture today on eyewitness to history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230#t=1425.0,1427.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1978/collection_resources/74370/file/160230/transcript/38331/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/038/331/original/azu_ms685-023_a.vtt?1654117106","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/038/331/original/azu_ms685-023_a.vtt?1654117106"}]}]}]}