{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/5m6251gq6d/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Jim Corbett Interviewed by Miriam Davidson"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright held by University of Arizona Libraries\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Miriam Davidson Papers, MS 433, Box 3, tape 8"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Corbett, Jim, 1933-2001 (Interviewee)","Davidson, Miriam, 1960 (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1987-02 (Created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 Jim Corbett discusses his thoughts on Central American governments engaging in civil war and acts of terrorism and torture as means of intimidation. Corbett provides opinions on United States policy regarding Salvadoran and Guatemala refugees and the influence the United States has on Central American politics. Corbett also discusses other Sanctuary Trial cases and the state of his health after his indictment. He discusses his trial and how the United States government approaches political trials differently from criminal trials. He then discusses the bias of Judge Earl Carroll during Sanctuary Trail proceedings and the influence he had over the jurors. Miriam Davidson finishes the interview with a discussion of her manuscript.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS433.008 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Miriam Davidson Papers (is part of)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eSide 1 Jim Corbett discusses his thoughts on Central American governments engaging in civil war and acts of terrorism and torture as means of intimidation. Corbett provides opinions on United States policy regarding Salvadoran and Guatemala refugees and the influence the United States has on Central American politics. Corbett also discusses other Sanctuary Trial cases and the state of his health after his indictment. He discusses his trial and how the United States government approaches political trials differently from criminal trials. He then discusses the bias of Judge Earl Carroll during Sanctuary Trail proceedings and the influence he had over the jurors. Miriam Davidson finishes the interview with a discussion of her manuscript.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright held by University of Arizona Libraries\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - azu_ms433-008_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2021.52,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/189/098/original/azu_ms433-008_side1_a.mp3?1685570756","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2021.52,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["azu_ms433-008_side1_edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Same, with the same intensity as before. The persecution has shifted over where people are being murdered, but the line is not known. And this really acts to intimidate a society in a much more effective way, because people can speak out in some measure, they don't know when they are going to be targeted. And so there's a tendency for people to get their nerve up over a certain period of time, but eventually just quit, you know. So it's a very different, it's a different social situation. Formally, the whole structure is the same: the death squad system, the existence of torture, and all that, but it's being used with much more finesse","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=0.0,51.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you don't think it's because of American instruction?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=52.0,54.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I'm sure that that the Americans have been trying to teach them how to use torture more effectively. It's not that the Americans are trying to end torture, oh, maybe","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=55.0,63.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well maybe get better intelligence, so they target people better. Who, instead of machine gunning the whole family.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=64.0,71.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, certainly they're trying that. Although part of it has to do with historical conditions, the Salvadoran government was close to losing it, and was actually holding things together by massive terrorism during the early 80s. Now, it does have adequate confidence that it can keep control of the military and the police. With that confidence, it can use a different form a much more tactful form of torture and terrorism to rule the country. And that's what they're doing. But there's been no change in the sense that the military would be held accountable for torture and murder.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=72.0,121.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Do you think they're gearing up for another wave of repression or another big attack?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=122.0,128.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, I think it's going their way. I think that they, the same repression would return if they got into the same problems that they faced in the early 80s, where they thought they were going to lose the military. And we're simply trying to intimidate the the population into docility. It would certainly return under those circumstances, they wouldn't have any reason to right now, it seems to be going their way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=129.0,160.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, but there's seems to be this kind of cyclical thing where they loosen up for a while and everyone relaxes a little and then protest, you know, the students can throw rocks at Duarte or whatever. And then, and then they clamp down again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=161.0,177.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: there could be although right now, they, I think it's almost always in response to changing circumstances. If, for example, the economy just absolutely came apart, it might be that they, they would feel the need to exercise a much wider, much less discriminate form of terrorism. Right now we see a very different shift, with the guerrillas shifting to somewhat more terroristic tactics. For example, having declared that there would be no traffic on a given day, and then shooting at civilians and killing civilians on the highways. Now, that's an attempt to show that they can still give an order and have it followed. But their method suddenly becomes a method of terrorism rather than agreement to follow their commands. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=178.0,238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Have they lost popular support or is it just under a stalemate, the war?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=239.0,244.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I think they're losing it rapidly. I mean, from the beginning of people just wanted the whole darn thing to quit under almost any terms. But at that time, in the early 80s, they didn't know who would be, who would emerge as dominant. But they felt caught in the middle now they're caught in the middle and they can see pretty well that the government is not going to be toppled. And so that it's not popular to have all this misery going on where there's no question of who's likely to come out on top.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=245.0,286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well it sounds like nothing's changed. Wait, so you don't think there's going to be another big offensive in the war?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=287.0,292.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: The FDR- FMLN?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=293.0,294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: No, that the government would try and wipe them out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=295.0,294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, the government the government will have different offensives, but uh, guerrilla warfare isn't won by offensives and I think everyone down there knows it, certainly the US government knows it. And so the gradual chipping away that's going on now, now that they that they're competent in the military forces probably will tend to it, there'll probably be armed resistance for some time to come. But it's likely to go increasingly towards various terroristic efforts to work one's will, and even forms of vandalism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=295.0,295.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So what about the refugee flow, you think it's going to be more ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=296.0,342.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: well, we're going to see continuing flow of refugees who are fleeing the situation, which is one of warfare, Civil War, in terms of the high risk protocol refugees, it probably will continue at about the current level, because the government still cannot rule without torture and terrorism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=343.0,372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Is Guatemala, still very unstable? I imagine so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=373.0,378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: it is, although, a similar thing can be said about Guatemala. In fact, there's less armed resistance there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=379.0,384.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: The government pretty much reasserted its control?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=385.0,387.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT:  The government seems to be in pretty good control, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=388.0,393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So it doesn't look like there's gonna be any major change in the Central America. situation,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=394.0,400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: it's not foreseeable, much of the impulse towards change could come from different administrations. That is everyone knows that Reagan is going out in a couple of years. And so at the same time, everyone knows that the United States is a superpower and the superpowers don't give away their territory to the territories themselves. That is they don't, we're not going to permit people to go independent in our sphere of influence. And so that it's predictable that any administration is not going to simply tell the, Salvadorans or the Guatemalans or the Nicaraguans to do their thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=401.0,446.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, what about Contadora? Couldn't I mean, if someone like Jimmy Carter, of course, Jimmy Carter was the first big supporter of the military in El Salvador.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=447.0,457.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think the Contadora and some of the other processes might be followed by a new administration. That is, there's a difference between the cold warriors who think that everything is accomplished by military means. And the more pragmatic Democrats and Republicans who recognize that our sphere of influence is largely economic. And that unless you force them out of our sphere, they're in it, you know, like a magnet, drawing iron filings, and you can say quite predictably, that they're going to be in it regardless of what governmental changes take place. So that I think there might well be room for much more change than the Reagan administration is willing to permit because it seems to rely almost entirely on efforts of military control.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=458.0,515.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So you don't see ... if there were a big flood of refugees from the Contras or something. But I guess that would still be okay with the Chicago people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=516.0,525.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: What's that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=526.0,527.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You know, people who don't want to fight the Contras or something","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=528.0,530.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, well, Chicago doesn't want to open the [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=531.0,537.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Not at all, huh? Even with the Contra war?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=538.0,541.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: As far as I know, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=542.0,543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Would that be a fragmenting of the movement, if there were suddenly a whole bunch of refugees showed up from Nicaragua?,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=544.0,551.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: it's hard to say what would happen, it could well be that there wouldn't be support from a lot of folks in terms of helping people who got in trouble up in Nicaragua. But that remains to be seen. Not much test of it so far.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=552.0,569.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You think that might happen? Or what do you think will happen with the Contra war?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=570.0,573.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT:  Well, my feeling is that they're not going to get it off the ground. But if it does, if they do, or if Reagan simply decides to bomb Nicaragua out of existence, we're going to have refugees in large numbers and we're going to have to try to respond to them and that would be very much ... sanctuary is all about here. It isn't what sanctuary is all about in some other places.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=574.0,602.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What happened to ... Laura? What's her name? That, was she the one ... is she still in jail?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=603.0,607.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Laurie Thomas? No, she got out, I think in the Christmas [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=608.0,613.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: She was in for a year or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=614.0,614.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Or I think, close to two years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=615.0,621.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And now Stacey's in for 120 days or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=622.0,625.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, I'm not sure the exact time, something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=626.0,627.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And this is for her arrest with Jack?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=628.0,631.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, the second charge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=632.0,635.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And he served his, he did like six months in a halfway house or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=636.0,644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=645.0,644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because she appealed, Steve appealed, and they lost their appeal, is that what happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=645.0,648.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, they appealed on both of them, but Jack was not willing to sign some of the conditions that Judge Vela had imposed. And therefore just got it out of the way. While, Stacey, might have had ... not getting it out of the way until, now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=649.0,667.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And the appeal, what happened with that? It's lost?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=668.0,670.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, it went down in the 5th Circuit Court.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=671.0,676.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So that must have been just recently.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=677.0,678.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: It was a little while back, but must have been last, or early summer, something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=679.0,682.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: After the trial, Steve went to do that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=683.0,685.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, let's see. No he was he was tending to some of that during the trial. It was after the trial that the government was going to retry Stacey and decided against it. On the reversal on the first charge, that was reversed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=686.0,706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So that still stands, if you're taking someone in ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=707.0,708.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, the reversal. Well, the Fifth Circuit Court reversal stands in any case, all they would have done was in light of that reversal re-try her, given those provisions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=709.0,709.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I see. So what about more future arrests and stuff, do you think that they might be, uh","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=710.0,730.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Could be. It's up to the INS I mean, we're letting them know what we're up to and continue, as well as just the chance of interception on the road.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=731.0,741.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you haven't have you had any more conversations with any of them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=742.0,744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: With the INS?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=745.0,745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=746.0,745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No. Ricardo and I talk about getting around to it and we just haven't. And some of the TRSG procedures and whatnot are such that you know, where we're working on 'em, or they're in transit ... in transition, so that I haven't been pushing to get together with the INS on these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=746.0,765.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And what, where are they in transition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=766.0,767.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, in considering whether we will begin notifying the INS of every border action that we do we notify of many but not all at this time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=768.0,780.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What happened to Cathy's separate group is that still ... is it on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=781.0,785.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, as far as I know, I haven't ... it's very separate, I don't hear much about what they're up to. I saw Carla over at the [INAUDIBLE] the other day, she wrote a really good letter to the editor. Yeah, well she's very active with Cathy, and whatever they're up to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=786.0,802.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: She's not in TRSG anymore?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=803.0,803.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=804.0,806.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But she was over at Southside, so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=807.0,808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, well she's I think back with the TEC Monday night meeting over there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=809.0,814.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What does that meeting do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=815.0,816.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I don't know. I never go there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=817.0,824.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I guess I'm not gonna get too specific about the mezcal. I don't know what he wants Oh, I was gonna ... do you know what they do at Father Quinones's church? they feed the kids or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=825.0,842.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: They feed poor people","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=843.0,844.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Not just kids, adults, children? They have a ... because every, seems like every time I go there, there's 50 million kids in the courtyard, getting their lunch or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=845.0,853.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I'm not sure. A lot of that program has probably become more articulated in various ways. So I'm not sure just what the status is currently.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=854.0,868.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Okay, and it said in that Chicago Tribune article that right after the indictment was handed down, you had a flare up of your arthritis, is that true?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=869.0,885.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I don't remember it in connection with indictment. I had it once earlier when I was supposed to be doing several different things. You know, I just got stressed from that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=886.0,902.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well it surprised me because I didn't think that the indictment was actually that stressful for you. But I thought it might have been ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=903.0,908.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: It wasn't. So I can't remember. Oh, I ... it wasn't it wasn't arthritis. That was when I got, remember that that really bad kind of flu that was going around at that time? And I was down for ... oh, gosh, a month that I could scarcely ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=909.0,932.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Right after the indictment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=933.0,933.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah. But it wasn't arthritis. It was that flu. Where ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=934.0,937.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Was that during the symposium? Were you ... During the symposium?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=938.0,939.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I came down with it, people were coming down with it all over the place. Yeah. And during that time of year, and I did find right down to about the time, the final days of the consultation. I was coming down. And then I was just really sick for at least a month. But that I think that it could be from the you know, staying awake so much, because there were so, there were so many demands. It wasn't arthritis, and it wasn't indictment, related.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=940.0,979.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: What was your reaction to the indictment? You weren't surprised? Or ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=980.0,983.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: I was surprised, I thought they'd use a grand jury against us. And I'm still puzzled by that. But we figured that, you know, they would do something by somewhere around mid January. That's why some of the planning meetings for the consultation, rather than having it in early January when more people might have been available, because of Christmas. We at one point back in the fall, actually made the decision to hold it when we did because we thought that by mid January, the Reagan administration would be geared up after the election to do whatever they were going to do. So you know, we had actually discussed the fact that that was the time when we'd probably get some signal about what they were going to do. And everyone was still wondering about Cruz I'm sure.  yeah, well, we didn't. We didn't know how it would all tie together. With our suspicions about Cruz and what-not. We I think all of us made the assumption that if they didn't read the newspapers, they'd have some way of figuring out anyway what we were up to you know, so there wasn't a question of there not knowing we were there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=984.0,1072.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And you, I mean, was it, were you, thought, Oh, great. Now we'll finally get to it. I mean, were you optimistic at that time that the trial was gonna ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1073.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well I, I wasn't optimistic about our getting things in front of the jury. I'd seen how it worked already in Texas. And you know, especially with the motions in limine coming right with the indictment. And then we knew instantly that Carroll was one of the very worst federal judges we could have gotten. So ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1080.0,1083.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Most conservative, or ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1084.0,1108.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, most autocratically authoritarian, where this sort of thing would be very difficult. For the defense in Carroll's court, you know, just given his past record, his disposition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1109.0,1129.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, and I was, I guess I want to ask the lawyers too a little bit more about this international law business, I guess, courts don't really pay much attention to international law. Do they? It's like they don't even ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1130.0,1139.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, it's something that people have to do. I mean, the Nuremberg Tribunal may mandate it. But unless you have the mechanism right in the community, that's what a lot of my Pendle Hill pamphlet is about you can't expect the courts, who are representatives of the state, to say that the state has lost legitimacy in this [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1140.0,1158.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: it's really hard to do, especially when jurors are such sheep. Well, I didn't mean to write it this way. But the guy got the impression from my book that the there was maybe excessive amount of hubris or something on the part of the defense lawyers, and maybe that they overestimated the amount of information that the jury were getting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1159.0,1188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Probably, yes. Well, I don't know whether it was hubris precisely because Steve Cooper's comment, and Steve was always one of the really cautious conservative ones.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1189.0,1199.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, probably why you got out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1200.0,1202.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Could be, at any rate his comment was that if it had been a bank robbery case, everyone would have been declared innocent easily. In the political cases, you've got just a heck of a big obstacle to overcome in the jury in that, it's clear that this is what the government wants. And that in some sense, what you're doing is, is a challenge to government per se. So that it's much more difficult, with the same evidence to get someone off on a political trial than it is on a straight criminal trial. And that was Steve's comment. And I think that it probably had a bearing on the expectations of folks like Bob Hirsh, who usually is dealing with drug dealers. And so his experience with juries was primarily in terms of criminal cases where virtually no jury he had known would have convicted given evidence of that crime. On a straight criminal case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1203.0,1271.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: So his ridiculing Reno and the government's case, and stuff really kind of backfired on him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1272.0,1278.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: No, I don't think, I think they were very well balanced on that. And with a somewhat different jury, we would have been off. A lot of the jury hinged around the fact that the decision, you know, the decision was made, as it ordinarily is, to knock out potential leaders and the one potential leader left in wanted to get us, so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1279.0,1303.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: well, that was another question he had, I guess I should direct a lot of these to the lawyers. But he said, How could that, her party affiliation have made that much difference? Was that really the determining factor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1304.0,1313.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Because she was right in the balance? A lot of them said, We've got to get rid of her. You know, Hirsh had an intuitive feeling we don't want ... and a number of them did. But the fact that according to their information she had changed party loyalties from Republican to Democrat, was a very positive indication. That was false information. Just the other way around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1314.0,1343.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah. Well, the editor wants me to take ... who was this private investigator that ... you know, I'm sure they won't tell me though. If they still employ the guy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1344.0,1352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, it was, I don't know if it was even private ... I remember the guys, the guy who made this report, I don't know where he came from exactly. But, you know, it's one of those things that is done very routinely, where they check the record of ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1353.0,1369.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Drive by their house ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1370.0,1371.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: And of course, these are public records where you just look up their party affiliation. Voter, voter registration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1372.0,1385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, I guess that's most of it. I'm gonna have to do a lot of re-writing then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1386.0,1393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: if there would have been one, I mean, there was there was a real argument about whether to get rid of Sheaffer. you know, to use up our strikes, if there would have been one more strike there's no question that she would have been out. It was that close on the whole thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1394.0,1412.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well Fife seemed to think that the jury really did know, but the judge's power was so strong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1413.0,1420.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, I think that the jury, as it understood what it was up to, thought that it was supposed to go in and listen to the judge's instructions, understand what the judge wanted them to do, and then do it. And that, in their comments later on, clearly came out. I think most of that jury does not communicate by very close logical reasoning, but, as most people do, by body language and everything else, and the judge had communicated for six months what he wanted them to do. You know, I think that that probably was also an influence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1421.0,1455.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I agree. What about this one, the judge was seen meeting privately with the jurors that I mean, when I when I remember at the time, David and I were here at home and and it was like the second day of deliberation and I didn't have a beeper and so I was every 30 seconds I thought, oh, no, that you know, verdicts and I gotta get down again. So David, called up. Because he always joking around with the marshals and they like him and stuff and he asked the marshall what was going on, and the marshall said, oh the judge is meeting with the jurors, and David said are all the lawyers there? and the marshall said, No, just the judge, jury and David hung up and he said that's funny, the judge is meeting privately with the jurors. And I said, that's impossible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1456.0,1503.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: He wasn't supposed to do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1504.0,1504.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I said that can't be, its an automatic mistrial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1505.0,1507.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: The defense was really outraged. They also didn't keep any record of what was said. The stenographer didn't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1508.0,1513.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: I thought she was there, that she ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1514.0,1515.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: She was there, but they didn't record it. And as a result, Steve and a few others decided just to sit there in the jury room all day while they were in session, rather than risk having to judge pull it again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1516.0,1530.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Well, why didn't they demand a mistrial right then? They, they were still really confident of a hung jury or something, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1531.0,1536.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, they may ... I'm not sure what they did in that. They certainly were considering, I guess probably. At that point, they, they may have felt that asking for a mistrial was not the best thing to do. I can't remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1537.0,1556.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Because that seems to me to be their best chance, or something. And if they wanted a mistrial, that would be the time to get one. I guess I'll have to ask them that. Okay, I guess I can let you go.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1557.0,1572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Well, if at any time, once you're getting down to the wire, you want me to do any proof and comment or whatever,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1573.0,1579.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: yeah, I want I'm gonna show you once I do my rewrite, I'm gonna show it to you. Because you haven't even seen the second half yet But it's such a mess now that I have to do a lot of rewriting. Because what I'm going to do is make this middle section, that's what these two reviewers wanted was something to carry, there's too much of a break between the first half and then you jump into that trial. And you don't know what happens in the intervening three years. So a lot of the stuff and trial is flashback to Chicago stuff. Put that in the middle section. And then in the final section, I can get to more of the the or I guess I'm gonna have to make it a little shorter or something because they both said, No, this blow by blow description of the trial is really tedious. But he didn't say that, Greg McNamee didn't seem to think it was tedious, it just needs a little more context I think. And I also thought blow by blow, they, I only use three refugees. They want blow by blow, six months long. It's actually a very condensed version of the whole thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1580.0,1585.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Oh, it'd have to be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1586.0,1630.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: But I really wanted, it didn't come across that, how manipulatve the judge was, how outrageous some of the things were, you know, so I really have to be more ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1631.0,1670.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: The attorneys in looking at the record at one point. Thought that the point where he would not allow the tape of that discussion in September, that Nixon testified about, to be played, was probably one of the clearest reversible errors that came up. And I've noticed that it's the most outrageous, as in people's perception, that, that they would let the government agent say what the conversation was, and distort it. And not let the actual tape be played.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1671.0,1714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: You don't recall what it ... Was it about the Elba Teresa meeting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1715.0,1720.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah, let's see. It was. Yeah, it was about September 7th, 10th, somewhere in there. And we were talking about getting a counselor down to Mexico City. And it was the one where they were trying to nail me on the conspiracy. It was really what my count depended on. And where Nixon gave all that extensive testimony, you know, nicely edited and slanted about what I said and all that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1721.0,1752.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Oh, is this where you said we have to do what's instrumentally valuable?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1753.0,1756.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: It could have been ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1757.0,1757.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: And Fife said we gotta right that wrong?  I didn't put it in, becasue I didn't, it wasnt ...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1758.0,1759.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JIM CORBETT: Yeah. But at any rate, where they, where I you know, I was describing what the reason was for the concern about whether the children might have had experiences which would traumatize them and the story about the lock-up up in, in Seattle and they wouldn't let that tape go on. Allowing Nixon to testify about what was said at a meeting and then not allowing the actual recording of what was said at that meeting. Many of the attorneys thought was the most clear reversible error, as well as bias, that they've seen in things so it could be a good illustration. I don't know whether you wrote it up or not. Oh, and then then Steve, when they went back to Minne, Minnesota had a, had a really good way of explaining the trial in terms of bias. Have I mentioned this to you about the person who broke, breaks into a house in Minnesota? Well, Steve explains it this way: suppose ... And this is to explain the necessity defense, in part. Suppose we had a case where a person breaks into a house at one o'clock at night, the owners are not present. And this, he's, and he's charged with breaking and entering. And the jury is permitted to know that this person did go and force the door and entered the house and was found there. They're not permitted to know that it was 40 below. This is, and this person was driving on a rural road and there was car trouble and managed to walk a half mile to the house, found no one there, no other houses nearby and broke in. In other words, the the other factors would be very important to deciding whether this person actually committed breaking and entering or was simply saving his life. So that's the illustration that Steve gives in terms of everything that was ruled out. And it's bearing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1760.0,1904.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MIRIAM DAVIDSON: Yeah, its like Kohlberg's six stages of it's, I guess it's kind of based on Rawls's system or something, where the very basic level of right and wrong is fear of punishment. And then the little, the way they test people as to what stage you are, they ask you, Hans's wife is dying, and the doctor or the pharmacist won't give him the drug, or he's charging $2,000 for this drug, should he break in and steal the drug to save his wife's life? And the stage six gu says, of course, because you know, saving a life is much more important than breaking the law. But a stage four person will say, No, the law has to be upheld. Tough luck for her. So it's real interesting, because people will, will always I mean, they, their, your children, their brains grow at a certain level. And they go through this, or they always go through the same stages in the same order, they never skip a stage and then go back or anything like that. You know, your original, your primary thing is fear of punishment. That's why I won't to do something. And then it's another it's an ... the next level iswanting to be good, wanting to be liked wanting to be socially acceptable. And then at the highest stage, you're sort of have this universal sense of what's right and wrong, universal troublemaker. Well, its really ana sad story, because this guy Kohlberg who figured all this out and truly a brilliant psychologist, he went crazy and ran off into the marshes a couple of weeks ago and disappeared, committed suicide. Yeah, here's a brilliant Harvard psychologist, famous, tortured and troubled Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098#t=1905.0,1907.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/910/collection_resources/93023/file/189098/transcript/63009/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/009/original/azu_ms433-008_side1_edited.vtt?1704473839","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/063/009/original/azu_ms433-008_side1_edited.vtt?1704473839"}]}]}]}