{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/5h7br8p607/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Fred Harris"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 1, tape 42"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Harris, Fred (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2000-05-09"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New Mexico--Albuquerque (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Fred Harris conducted by Julie Ferdon. Harris worked for President Johnson during his Presidency, also working with Stewart Udall. Harris ran against Udall in the Democratic primaries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.017 (uid)","MS396.018 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Fred Harris conducted by Julie Ferdon. Harris worked for President Johnson during his Presidency, also working with Stewart Udall. Harris ran against Udall in the Democratic primaries."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 4 - azu_ms396-017_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2587.104,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/293/original/azu_ms396-017_side1_a.mp3?1744847810","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2587.104,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape number 42 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good afternoon. It's Tuesday, May 9 year 2000 and we're in the office of former Senator Fred Harris at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. My name is Julie ferdon, and I would like to welcome you, Senator Harris, and thank you for participating in the Morris K Udall oral history project, good, good project. Although we'll be concentrating in this interview on the 1976 presidential campaign, I'd like to touch on some other aspects of your life that brought you to that point. Let's begin at the beginning. When and where were you born? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1.0,39.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was born in Oklahoma, in a little town of Walters, about 1500 population in southwestern Oklahoma, November the 13th, 1930","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=40.0,52.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and as I understand, your father was a sharecropper.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=53.0,55.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He was in a little of everything. He come out from Mississippi with his parents in 19 six, I believe, and they share cropped on a place east of Walters, which he wound up eventually, just before he died on him, and he lived on it, that very farm. But in the meantime, he was mainly a cattle trader, although he did some other things too. He farmed some and from time to time and did other things. But most of his life, he traded cattle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=56.0,97.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And you were you grew up during the Depression. In fact, your, your, your, your first mystery novels is set in Oklahoma in the depression and deals with the cattle trader. What effect did growing up during the depression have on you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=98.0,114.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know. It's a period when people in Oklahoma particularly, had to really live by their wits and kind of keep body and soul together by hard work and great deal of self reliance. It's also a period when the government had to step in and kind of put a safety net under things, and also intervene in the economy, and all of those things are things that stuck in my mind,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=115.0,154.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as I understand it, you got involved in politics very young, beginning in High school when you were student body president, then you went to Oklahoma University. I did, and were president of the League of Young Democrats, as I was and and from there, you went to law school again at Oklahoma University. That's right. When did you get your degree there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=155.0,176.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: In those days, you could do a combined degree, where your first year of law school counted as the last year of undergraduate school. So I got a bachelor's degree majoring in political science in 1952 and then a law degree in 1954","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=177.0,195.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, I think it was that way when mo went to law school at the University of Arizona from there, you went into practice briefly. Did you have any specialty area? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=196.0,206.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: practiced law for 10 years in Lawton, which is a town very near where I grew up, but a larger town. It's the third largest city in Oklahoma, but also in southwestern Oklahoma, and I did pretty much a general practice. I soon formed my own law firm, and was the founder and manager of it, and we practiced every kind of law, pretty much except criminal law. Normally, we weren't involved in criminal cases.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=207.0,241.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How long was it then, before you ran for Oklahoma State Senate, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=242.0,247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was elected to the Senate. In state senate in 1956 I'd been out of law school only a year and a half. I was 25 years old, which is as young as you can be. Yeah. What happened was that the incumbent state senator had come down with a brain tumor from which he died, and there was a vacancy, and I got sort of pushed into it. Some of the other people that were running had quite a bit of opposition. One was the mayor of Lawton, the other was an incumbent state representative. And the district included not only Comanche County, where I was then living and practicing law, the county seat of which is Lawton, but also my old home county of cotton County, the county seat of Walters, which gave me a kind of an extra edge and. And so I ran and was elected to the State Senate, and then four years later, re elected, but I continued to practice law from 1954 to 1964 when I was elected to the United States Senate. So that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=248.0,319.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was 64 and you were what, 34 or 33","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=320.0,323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: when I first got elected to the United States Senate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=324.0,327.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That was a year that Senator Barry Goldwater was soundly defeated by Lyndon Baines Johnson. Do you think that had any effect on your election? Was yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=328.0,337.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think it did some. It certainly was a help to me that the presidential candidate of the Democratic Party was a neighbor, Lyndon Johnson, well known, very popular in neighboring Oklahoma, and also that he was running so much ahead of the Republican nominee, Barry Goldwater, my opponent in the general election, famed football coach, Bud Wilkinson, the Republican nominee, endorsed Goldwater, and I, of course, endorsed the Democratic nominee, Lyndon Johnson. Johnson carried the state very heavily, and I think that was a help in my own election.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=338.0,384.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: When you arrived at the Senate, there were two prominent Arizonans serving in the Senate, then Senator Barry Goldwater and Senator Carl Hayden. What were your impressions of those two men starting say, with Goldwater,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=385.0,398.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I didn't have much contact with Goldwater, except because he and I were not on a committee together. I saw him from time to time, and I would see him on the floor of the Senate, of course. But even before I came to the Senate, people told me, and later, Senators told me that he was a very nice person and congenial, easy to work with, and from what little contact I had with him, I found that to be true about Carl Hayden. Carl Hayden was I had to immediately see him. I was elected to an unexpired term for two years, and so I was running for re election to the Senate almost from the time I first went there, it was very important for me to get on a water committee, one that's now called Energy and Natural Resources, in order to finish up a water project of my predecessor, who had died in office, Senator Robert S Kerr of Oklahoma. So the chairperson of the Senate Democratic Steering Committee, which names Democrats to fill vacancies on standing committees, was Senator Carl Hayden as I went to see him. And also, of course, I had an introduction to him, from senator from Oklahoma, former senator from Oklahoma, Elmer Thomas. I was the first, I was the third United States Senator from my fairly small city of Lawton, Oklahoma. There was Elmer Thomas, who had been later defeated, but was still living there and had served with Carl Hayden, so I went to see him, and he listened to my pitch. I told him it was very important for me to get on that committee that Kerr had been on in order to finish the Arkansas River navigation project. And he said, All right, I'll help you do that. And when you get on it, I want you to help me finish the Arizona, the Central Arizona Project. I later saw him quite a bit in the center's dining room and on the floor and other kinds of caucus and other meetings, and two or three things that remind I remember about it once, I remember we had a vote in the Senate. Well, first, I mean, once, he said to me that he had been elected to the House Representatives in Arizona in the same year Arizona was became a state. He said he was coming back from Washington with his wife, and when Arizona, when the enabling legislation had been passed, and he got off the train at Chicago, he said, and had a picture taken for political campaign purposes, and he told his wife that he was going to go home and run for representative. And she said, What would you know about it? And he said, as much as anyone else, and he was elected, of course, he said he had first campaigned for office, for sheriff, at a time when the best place to campaign in Phoenix or near Phoenix, was at stage COVID. Crossings. When the stage stopped to water the horses, people got out and stretched their legs, and you could give them a card and campaign them. He also told me, as he's had to other people, two or three other things about campaigning. He says, if you were shaking hands and somebody asked you about an issue, just say it's good to meet you and go on to the next person. And he said, also, he said, don't talk to the press. They can't quote silence. He said, one other thing I remember my name is that's wonderful. He was getting up in years already when I went there, and it certainly wasn't by the time I left and he one time, Time Magazine said, on a very close vote, that elderly old Senator Carl Hayden of Arizona, daughter in and voted and daughtered out, and Soon thereafter, we were Democrats eating in the Senator's private dining room. And he said, from the end of the table where the senior Democrat sits in that room, he took issue with the article. He said, I don't daughter a shuffle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=399.0,676.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's wonderful. Did you end up voting for the C, A, P, I did, was it a project you you supported or worked for, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=677.0,683.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I didn't know much about it? In the committee,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=684.0,688.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: there was another Arizonan of some power at that time us, Secretary of Interior, Stuart Udall. Did you know Stuart when he was Secretary of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=689.0,697.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Interior? Yes, I knew him almost at once. I rented a house out in McLean, Virginia, very near the place where Stuart and Lee Udall lived. He was Secretary of Interior, and also, since I was very much interested in Indians coming from a state with a lot of Indians Oklahoma. I had a lot of contact with both Stuart and Lee, and later got Stuart to appoint my administrative assistant, Dr William R Carmack, as assistant Assistant Secretary of Interior for Indian Affairs. But I remember saying to Stuart, I'm little worried about buying a house. I only have two years assured, and then I have to run for re election. And he said, but that's the way it was when I came here, elected to the House. I bought a residence right away, and you should too, because it'll go up in value in any event. And that turned out to be true. I did buy a house in McLean, and when I left, 12 years later, left out of Washington, it had tripled, something over tripled in value. So it was good advice. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=698.0,770.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were, you were both friends of the Kennedys. Did you ever run into him, either when visiting or socializing with the Kennedys, or did you socialize with he and Lee any other times? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=771.0,783.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we saw Stewart and Lee socially a good deal, in their home and in ours. And I did see him at the home of Robert Ethel Kennedy some I never saw him at Hyannis court. But what was your impression of Stuart Stewart? I think, is a really well motivated person, very solid and very sincere and real, very much committed on issues, for example, of environment and preservation. And I thought was maybe the best Secretary of Interior ever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=784.0,821.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How about his brother, Morris Udall, Moe had been elected to Congress in 1961 to replace his brother Stewart in those early days in the Senate. Had you heard of moe or met him? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=822.0,833.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I heard of moe almost at once, and had occasion to see him at various functions. I don't know. I don't think I saw him much socially, but I saw him at democratic things and so forth. I knew a lot about him, and knew him as a very progressive person, right on the issues and well motivated, and also to send time a person with with a keen sense of humor that's always been a hallmark of his image. Oh yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=834.0,869.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in October 1967 Mo, broke with President Johnson and became one of the first legislators to announce his opposition to the Vietnam War. Do you recall that at all? And recall your response?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=870.0,885.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't remember the circumstances. I know he did, and you still own the war, but I didn't know you. I don't remember it. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=886.0,893.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: stayed loyal longer, but I think split with him. In spring the following year, 1968 I think along","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=894.0,902.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: legacy, it was close to summer. It was prior to the Democratic Convention in 1968 I had been deeply involved in the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, the Kerner Commission, which Johnson appointed and they put me on I'd been very active, and what we had to do was to look at the causes and prevention and deeper causes of the riots which had taken place in the central cities, most of the cities of the country. And I simply had not focused on the war until rather late being late, relatively and finally, when I did, primarily because of my association with Robert Kennedy and two, three meetings that he got together small little groups to talk with experts, and also because of my association with Clark Clifford, who, about this time, decided on his own, once being made Secretary of Defense, that the war ought to be wound down and we ought to withdraw. So it was in, I think long, about late June, maybe something like that, in 68 that I first spoke out against the war. How","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=903.0,981.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did President Johnson Take it? Take your defection that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=982.0,985.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Johnson both because of my coming out against the war and also because of the report of the Kerner Commission, which he felt did not give sufficient credit to the Johnson administration for what he had done in the Civil Rights field and against poverty. He was wrong about that our relations became very, very strained and cold and weren't sort of healed again until later on, the year after he went out of office and I was the national chairman of the Democratic Party, I flew down to the Johnson ranch, and we spent the day together. But the change in my position on the war added to the Kerner report in which I had been quite central the relations were COVID. To say the least.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=986.0,1045.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I know from Moe it was difficult, because his brother was serving in the cabinet at the time too, and my impression is Johnson was not one to take defection. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1046.0,1055.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, not at all. He wasn't at all. I happened to be at a reception at the White House. This was before I came out against the war, but the day that Frank Church had done so, Frank Church was a senator from Idaho, and we were he and I over by the hors d'oeuvres, and Johnson came over and Frank Church offered a kind of an apology. Said, you know, I didn't like to oppose you, in effect, he said, but I felt I had to go along with Wayne Morse. Wayne Morse was a senator from Oregon. I don't mean he didn't mean that Morse made him do it. He just meant, I guess, that he agreed with Morse reasoning. And Johnson said to him very curtly, well, when you want to get the SO and SO dam built, I forgot what it was, but obviously something in Idaho, why don't you go see Wayne Morse about it. He was not one, as you said, to take defection lightly","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1056.0,1126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in your in your 1976 book entitled Potomac fever, you mentioned that on the eve of President Johnson leaving office in 1968 you were with him in the White House, when an aide came in to say that interior secretary Stuart Udall was waiting outside and wanting him to sign a paper to form a new park, and that Johnson refused to complaining that all kinds of people were asking him to sign all kinds of things at the last moment, what more recollections do you have of that incident I spent,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1127.0,1161.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: as I said, We'd been our relations had been quite strained for a good while, but I went down there, it seems to me, it's on a set. It was a Saturday before he was leaving at the White House on a Tuesday, and I spent at least an hour there. Johnson had always liked to talk to me. Well, he liked to talk to anybody. He once said to me, you after some meeting I went to he said, You go back down there and tell him you told me what to do. He said, That reminds me. He said, one time I came back. From talking to President Roosevelt, I guess he was in the house then, and he said, I told Sam Rayburn. And I went down and I told Roosevelt this and that. And he said, Sam Rayburn said, that's a damn lie. There's only one talker when you're talking with Franklin Roosevelt. That's the Rosa at any rate, Johnson, I don't like to talk to me, and maybe to everybody, and so we spent a whole hour, and all around things were being creeded up. There was a noise of crates being nailed together, and you could see them there in the room. And things were being boxed up and crate it up. And they were to leave on Tuesday. And every now and then he got a message. Somebody came in with a message so and so, but the one that I remember most, and maybe that's the only one, he told me what it was, or whoever it was, said, Secretary Udall is out here, and it seemed to me that he wanted the President to sign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1162.0,1264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We were talking about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1265.0,1265.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: either the woman said, who brought in the message, or the President said, and I think it was the person, or it must have been him. Anyway, somehow I came to know that what Udall wanted, Stuart Udall, was to sign some executive order setting up a park or refuge or something like that, which made I thought, and the President refused to see he said, No, I can't see him. And then he said to me, but I don't think tied directly to what Stuart wanted. But he said, If I did everything people wanted me to do at the last minute here, they'd send me to the pen. I think he was talking about in general, not the Stuart Udall request.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1266.0,1314.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you have any idea what national you had mentioned that it was a national park that he wanted to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1315.0,1318.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thought it was a nice but it's some something like that that the President could do by executive order, as Bill Clinton has lately done with some things. But I never did talk to Stuart about what,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1319.0,1329.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: about what it was. Hopefully, you later co chaired, not much later, co chaired the Hubert Humphrey campaign for president after LBJ didn't run again, co chaired it with Senator Mondale. That's right, I'm curious. Both Hubert Humphrey and Robert Kennedy were friends of yours, yes, and they both ran that year, very close. Why did you pick Humphrey over Kennedy? It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1330.0,1363.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: seemed to me that I had already kind of made the decision, mostly earlier. What had happened was when Lyndon Johnson was running for re election with Humphrey as his running mate, of course, the Vice President, I got a call from Mondale, who was, of course, from Minnesota, and a US senator then, and very close friend of mine, my seat mate in the Senate, and he said, they want us to No, I'm sorry. This is that where Mondo calls me is a little bit later. This call was from Orville Freeman. Orville Freeman was Secretary of Agriculture, and he asked me to head up a group called rural Americans for Johnson and Humphrey, and I agreed to do it. And this was at a time when my other seat mate, Robert Kennedy, was for Lyndon Johnson for a good while after this, Kennedy, though he did break with Johnson on the war and I was with him when he went over a speech about that with me once. But even though he came to disagree with Johnson on the war, he still, for a long time, continued to support Lyndon Johnson's re election. So I agreed to do this thing for Johnson and Humphrey, and then Johnson withdrew, and Humphrey announced, and I came back to town, and Robert Kennedy tried to call me, but we never did make connection, and he was my very close friend. And Humphrey called me and I went out and had breakfast with him at his South Capitol apartment, my wife and I did, and he was trying to decide what he was going to do for sure. But I felt then that when Walter Mondale called me and asked me to co chair with him the Humphrey campaign, that it was something that just about another fourth. Way to do that, from what I'd already agreed, I'd already agreed to Johnson Humphreys re election, and Humphrey was a major part of that for me. So it was a really, it's an odd circumstance to be in where you've got two very close friends, and they were very close friends of mine. I saw them a pretty along the time and a lot socially, both of them separately. Of course, each knew about the other. But Time Magazine once said about along this time that I was the only person who could have breakfast with Lyndon Johnson and lunch with Hubert Humphrey and dinner with Robert Kennedy. But and that was true, they all knew about each other and my friendship with them, so I did that. And it was really a very painful thing for me to do, not to support Robert Kennedy, but I thought, really, I had already pretty much made that decision earlier.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1364.0,1557.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You were after Humphrey got the nomination, you were one of two people that he considered for vice president, the other being Edmund Muskie. Was the fact that you were being considered for vice president a surprise, or was that something that you'd sought? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1558.0,1574.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there was an, incidentally, a periscope item in Newsweek, which I know I learned came from Frank Mankiewicz, who was Robert Kennedy's press secretary, although it was a blind item in Periscope that said that Robert Kennedy was considering me for his vice presidential running mate. Then as time went on, and incidentally, Walter Mondale and I extracted an agreement from Humphrey. He actually read a speech where he was to divorce himself from the Johnson war policy and called for withdrawal and into US involvement in Vietnam. He also promised that to Larry O'Brien, whom we eventually brought in to head up the campaign on a day to day basis. It began to be rooted about that I was on a list, rather long list, at first, for a possibility, for the possibility of being Humphreys vice presidential running mate, and that came to me sort of cumbersome and awkward for me, so I called him one night from New York. I'd been in New York, doing a bunch of things, interviews and so forth, and I called him late one night, my wife was with me, and I said to him, Listen, I'm going to make an I'm going to be on a national television show tomorrow night, and I'm going to announce that I'm not willing to be considered for vice president. Won't take myself out of it, so you won't be embarrassed. We were very close friends, and so you won't be embarrassed by any feeling that you ought to do. And it's been awkward for me. So he said, No, don't do that. Freddy. He called me Freddy like he called Monday and Monday Leo and various things. Humphrey. He said, No, don't do that. I really am considering you. And he said, Go on and, you know, do that television interview and help yourself, and we'll see. By the time I got to Chicago for the Convention, which, incidentally, Mondale and I tried to get changed. We feared just what was, what did happen in Chicago. The Humphreys choices were down to two, me and Ed muskie. Before that, there'd been a bunch of other people talked about, and by then, they had all been eliminated. I got practically an hour by hour sometime, minute by minute report I was one floor down from Humphreys suite in the hotel as to what he was thinking and so forth, and he had a press conference set for a certain time. And I said, Well, he, you know, he won't announce it until he talks to me. I know one way or another. I mean, you know, he's not going to choose me. He'll certainly talk to me first. And there were two or three false alarms, and the press conference was missed. Humphrey was a had a hard time staying on time, and it got way past that the night before he was to finally make the decision. I got a report just before he went to bed that he was sort of leaning toward muskie, but he was asked at the last well, who had you you. Uh, rather be with and he said, Harris and and then in a kind of so he sort of threw up his hands and said, Let's go to bed. So he went to bed and still undecided. The mayor of Pittsburgh, a supporter of his was for me. The mayor of Philadelphia, a supporter of his was for muskie. The head of the FL CIO was for muskie. The head of the UAW United Auto Workers was for me, and his staff split right down the middle Mondale was for me. And so he had a hard time finally making the decision. Eventually called me said, Could you come up? Well, I went up and walked through a reception room with a bunch of staff people and others there and into a bedroom. He took me back to a bedroom, and we talked for a little while. And you know, he says, Is there anything I should know about you that would make it a problem if I were to choose you for vice president, and there wasn't. And so we talked a little more, and then he said, Would you hold on? Well, he left. What I didn't know at the time was he walked just across the hall to the other bedroom where muskie was, and then he came back and talked to me some more, and then he asked me to hold on again, and went across the hall into the other bedroom to talk to muskie, as I later learned. Then he finally came back in and in tears in his eyes, he said, Fred, I'm going to have to choose the older man. That was his exact words. And I said, Well, if that's your choice, I'll nominate him. And he said, would you go with me to tell him? By then I knew as me and muskie, of course. So we walked into the other bedroom, opened the doors. Door was closed. There stood muskie against the other wall, turned around, and Humphrey said rather long sentence for muskie, I guess he said, Ed, shake hands with the man who's going to nominate you. Yes, and I did. I did nominate muskie.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1575.0,1930.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's a great story. You went from, from there you went to in 1969 you You chaired the Democratic National Committee, that's right, and you were still a senator at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1931.0,1943.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The I decided that it was worth doing in order to reform the Democratic Party. The convention in 68 was terrible. It was a part of the awfulest year, really, of that half century, probably 1968 with Robert Kennedy killed and Martin Luther King killed, and that terrible Chicago convention with what somebody called a police riot, one commission did, And I thought the party ought to be reformed and modernized, made more democratic. That was the main reason why I had Humphrey agree for me to be chairman of the Democratic Party. I had actually campaigned for it then and get myself elected by the National Committee, but Humphrey made the first decision","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=1944.0,2004.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when you, when you were overseeing these reforms to the delegate selection process, did you have any thoughts that you might one day run for president, or that you might be the beneficiary of those reforms? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2005.0,2017.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: didn't. I thought at some point I might run for president. You know, I think everybody who goes to the Senate sees presidents up close, and you come to think, well, I could probably do that. It's like Jimmy Carter said he had presidents and presidential candidates. He met him when he was governor, and he thought to himself, well, I could do that. Well, I think that's true of every senator. You think, Well, I could do that, also, you come to feel, as I eventually did, that you can only do so much as a senator, the great old senator, Richard Russell of Georgia, said to me one time that governors generally have a hard time here in the Senate because former governors, because he said, When you're a senator, or he said, when you're a governor, you make a decision and execute it. And when you're a senator, you make a decision and talk about it. So you come to feel, as I did, a lot of people do, that you've done about all you can do in the Senate, and that if you were president, you could actually get some of these things accomplished and but at that moment, when when I was chairman of the party, I wasn't that wasn't very importantly on my mind. I just wanted to see if we couldn't bring back into the party the bunch of these young people and anti war people and more progressive elements. Thoughts that were very much alienated from the party and vehicle for doing that, I thought, was to modernize and democratize and reform the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2018.0,2109.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: party you were at the DNC. How long 69 and 70 and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2110.0,2115.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: then I stepped down, and Larry O'Brien came back in again. We call Larry O'Brien The Once and Future chairman. He was the chairman before me, and then for a while, he was the chairman after me. Again,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2116.0,2130.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1971 you announced that you would not seek re election to the Senate, but would instead run for president as a people's candidate. Were you concerned about your re election to the Senate? Then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2131.0,2144.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That wasn't why I ran for President. I just thought that, as I said, in order to really accomplish some things I wanted to do in regard to issues, the presidency was the place to do it, the I would I would have had a tough re election campaign, but that was nothing new. I've been elected to start with by 51% and then I was re elected by 53% so I'd always had a lot of opposition, and the opposition was intense, especially after my efforts on race and poverty and the Kerner Commission, and my efforts eventually against the Vietnam War and the more national stance I took as chairman of the Democratic National Committee, but I had long since decided I wasn't going to run for re election, and and I decided at first to see what I could do about running for President. As it turned out, I couldn't. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2145.0,2209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you? Did you seriously think you had a chance of winning? Or was it more to make a statement now","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2210.0,2213.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: then I was hoping to have a chance to win, but I could see you very soon that I couldn't by the time I decided, which was quite late, you need to be running for president full time for two years at least, ahead of time. And by the time I decided to run for president in 72 the or for the year 72 McGovern already had, well, locked up, I discovered, but only after I'd sort of gotten into it, the people, a good portion of the people that I had to have, and so people say, well, didn't you run for president in 72 Well, the answer is, actually, no. I sort of jogged for President in 72 for a very short period. I never entered any primary or anything in 1976 I actually ran for president. It,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2214.0,2266.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it was reported about your 71 race, that that you were sort of forced out of the race after, I think, six weeks or so, after spending $300,000 and a couple reports I've read that were advanced to you by millionaires. Is that? Is that accurate? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2267.0,2286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: can't believe it that we spent that much money. I don't think that's that much money, okay, but I don't, I don't really","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2287.0,2292.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 300,000 now is nothing, no, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2293.0,2295.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was a lot. And I know I did have one very strong supporter in a Wall Street broker, but a personal friend who had married a woman from Oklahoma, but his the amount of money that he put into the campaign would have been only a fraction of that. We spent hardly any money. I mean, it doesn't seem to me now that it was very much money, but I don't remember the amounts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2296.0,2331.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: When you return to the Senate then to finish 72","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2332.0,2335.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you know, that was prior to the campaign","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2336.0,2338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: finance act of 1974","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2339.0,2341.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so that we didn't there, went to kind of reporting requirements and so forth, and that's why I haven't any recollection about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2342.0,2350.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that. Was a long time ago, yeah. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2351.0,2352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in one way, you could say the reason why I couldn't run was because I couldn't raise the money. But actually, you know, that's a symptom of not being able to put together a campaign. If I'd have had a good campaign, and a good campaign was, was a possibility, I could have put together the money. So it's, you know, it's a kind of a symptom rather than a cause. Right money,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2353.0,2378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when you return to the Senate to finish out your term. I understand that you worked on land reform and strip mining, and those were two things. Moe was very involved in it. Then he was chief sponsor of the strip mine control bill, and also sponsored bills to establish a national land use policy. Were you at all? Aware of those issues with him at the time? Have any communication with him at the time about those issues?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2379.0,2402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think the answer is yes, but my present recollection isn't distinct about any of that. I mean, I was quite aware of his progressive positions and leadership on a number of those kinds of issues, but so far as our conversations about it, or collaboration about those issues, I have no present distinct memory","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2403.0,2427.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: about the same time, in around 71 Mo, was very involved in sponsoring the campaign finance reform bill. Did you have a position on the bill at that time, or was that already after you had left?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2428.0,2443.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, and I held some hearings. I began to hold some hearings as an individual senator, even though the subject matter was not within the jurisdiction of some committee of which I was chair or even a member. And one of those issues was campaign finance reform, I held hearings on that in the Senate and common cause and others testified also earlier, before Lyndon Johnson left office, he had all the Democratic members of the Senate Finance Committee, of which I was a member to the White House to discuss public financing of presidential campaigns, and we all agreed to support that idea. And the only thing that was debated at the meeting at the White House was whether or not the public financing for presidential campaigns ought to be made available for the seven, for the 68 campaign when Johnson would have been running, or whether it ought to be made applicable only to the campaign after that and we voted to we decided to make it that it was a good idea, and we thought public financing was a good idea, that it ought to be made effective at once. So the Finance Committee reported out such a bill, and it was passed and became law. However, Robert Kennedy and others who became were soon to become candidates themselves or supporters of other candidates than Lyndon Johnson, decided that that was going to put too much money in Lyndon Johnson's pocket, and so that campaign financing system and that law was repealed in the same year. It was past our heavens. And as we didn't get a campaign financing law and campaign finance reform law generally, again, until 1974","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2444.0,2576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: interesting. I wasn't aware of that, actually, you know, I think I'll take advantage of this and change the tape. Sure do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293#t=2577.0,2579.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270293/transcript/78611/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/611/original/azu_ms396-017_side1_a.vtt?1744913769","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/611/original/azu_ms396-017_side1_a.vtt?1744913769"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 4 - azu_ms396-017_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2713.512,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/294/original/azu_ms396-017_side2_a.mp3?1744847815","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2713.512,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, this aside, too, you mentioned in your in your 1976 book, Potomac fever, that by 1974 you had begun seriously thinking about running for president again. At that time, your friend Fritz Mondale was considering running. Did you ever discuss with him your plans to run.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=0.0,21.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Here's a no what I not in advance. What I did do was to I wrote a four page memo, single spaced, addressed to Monday, about how I thought he ought to run for president in 76 and how he ought to go about it in a populist way, with populist issues staying in people's homes and so forth. And by the time I had that finished, why he'd already pretty much decided he was not going to run, according to reports, and I had a couple of friends of mine read it, one of whom was Jim Hightower, who was later to become my campaign manager and then Commissioner of Agriculture, now a radio commentator. And he said, Well, why don't you do that yourself. And so I re worked the beginning of it and made it, rather than a memo to Mondale, a sort of statement of my own about how I was thinking about doing it, and began to circulate it, and decided then to run for president myself. Did you ever speak with Mondale","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=22.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: about that? No, never did. Didn't in November 23 1974 Moe announced his candidacy for president. I think that was probably the earliest anybody had ever announced Yes. Before, had you known that he was considering running? No, that came","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=106.0,120.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: as a great supply surprise and also a great disappointment to me. We I and my main friends and supporters in Washington around the country, had already decided that I was going to run and how we're going to do it and so forth, and the field looked pretty good. We thought things looked pretty good for me and my campaign in the way the field was shaping up. And then all of a sudden, Mo Udall decided to run. And by then, we were already committed to running, but I saw at once that he was the most like me and would be the most serious competition for a person like me in the Democratic contest","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=121.0,177.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: a Couple of weeks later on, I think, December 12, 1974 Georgia Governor Jimmy Carter announced that he was going to run. What was your reaction to his announcement?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=178.0,188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: We had that didn't seem to be of any real significance to me or to anyone I knew it. It later did become very important in my mind, very, very early in Iowa, I began to run on the UAW and a lot of people like that were supporters of mine in Iowa, and a lot of labor people. Tom Congressman Tom Harkin's wife was my campaign manager in Des Moines, and believe he was a congressman. Then, at any rate, the I began to run on the people like I remember in particular the first time I heard this was from UAW people in Iowa, and they say I went to a coffee and I met this governor from Georgia, whatever his name is, said, Carter, yeah, Carter. So, you know, I don't see how I could support a Southerner, but I really liked him. And I said very, very, I mean, I just kept hearing this Carter was running a very personal kind of campaign, as we were, and so I said to a group of my staff people very early, I said, you know, a person that's really in this thing is Carter. And I remember one of my staff people said, Jim Monroe. Said, Well, you know, why do you say that? And I said, well, people just keep telling me they like him. And he said, Yes, but what does that mean? And I said, these are, these are, this is an exact conversation. I said, Well, it's better than a kick in the head. You know, somebody's going to say something about you. It's pretty good thing for him to say they like you. I think this guy's in it. Well, they all said, Oh no, you know, because he wasn't even showing at all. The polls, but he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=189.0,301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was, he wasn't it a month later, on January 11, 1975 you announced your candidacy in Manchester, New Hampshire. I think so you were the third, probably about the third announced candidate. So in addition to you and Moe, a number of other liberals announced that year, including Terry Sanford by birch, by your friend, Sergeant Shriver, and eventually, Frank Church,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=302.0,328.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, church was in it after I was out of it, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=329.0,332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: oh, he was okay with with so many little","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=333.0,336.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, long before the announcement, I'd been involved in the I mean, I was already campaigning. For example, I spent Thanksgiving that year on purpose in a borrowed home in Concord, New Hampshire. You know, we were already campaigning, but then the formal announcement came later. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=337.0,355.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did mo know that you were running before he announced? You said you didn't know that he was, yeah, I doubt it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=356.0,363.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I don't, I don't think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=364.0,365.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: With so many liberals in in the race, I have to ask you what, what was it that you thought you had that that these men didn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=366.0,377.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, for example, a lot of labor people were for me, who were very much opposed to to Mo.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=378.0,385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I was that. I don't it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=386.0,386.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had, I don't know whether he'd had a vote. I can't remember now, it seemed like there was a vote for right to work, or at least not against right to work, or Arizona's a right to work, some other stuff, I don't know, but at any rate, some of my strong support, for example, was from the Service Employees International Union, a union, you know, John Sweeney is from that union. He's now the head of the FL CIO, and that was a union, is a union that organizes people at the low end of the wage scale, janitors and elevator operators and people like that. They were very strongly for me, and a lot of those kind of people were not. They didn't want to be for Udo. That's one of the things that occurred to me now and then on a number of other kind of populist issues, I and my supporters felt we were much we were considerable contrast with the Udalls more sort of New Deal liberal kind of approach. In retrospect, I don't know that the differences were that great on those issues, but at the time, my supporters felt they were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=387.0,465.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did you still consider Moe your primary rival? Yes, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=466.0,471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had we? And it was increasingly clear, once he got off to a great start in Iowa, that Carter was just for purely tactical political reasons, positioned perfectly, since there were so many of the rest of us over to the left","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=472.0,489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: of him, Yes, he was. Let's talk about the style of the Harris campaign. You ran a guerrilla style campaign using primarily volunteers, living in people's homes, traveling in a camper. Was this primarily a financial decision?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=490.0,508.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It was both I had written in that four page memo all of the details of how to do this when I was thinking, I was writing it for Mondale, and then wrote it for myself. And I thought that the campaign ought not only to be a populist campaign on issues for a fairer distribution of wealth, income and power, and specific ways to do that with tax reform and so forth, but also that it ought to be populist people oriented in the in style and so they didn't stay in high price hotels and so forth. That was a style adopted by design, but also out of necessity, since we didn't have a lot of money, and I wound up Charles Moore M, O, H, R, of the New York Times was later to write that I had the largest and most professional staff of any of the presidential candidates. And I think that's true at the last we had, I think 131 in the national staff, none of whom drew a salary. There were a few who got stipends and so forth, but like my campaign manager, for example, Jim Hightower, he drew no salary. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=509.0,586.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you don't think it hurt your campaign to have non paid professionals. It would","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=587.0,591.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: have been a lot better if we could have done this. If I don't know about the salary part, but Carter was able to put. Into Iowa, for example, and in other places, but Iowa in particular, paid organizers very early person who's now my very good friend, who from and lives in New Mexico, Tim craft went in there for Carter in Iowa, but we weren't able to do that. And one reason we weren't was that our matching money was held up because of the Supreme Court case Buckley versus Vallejo, which questioned the constitutionality of the Campaign Finance Reform Act and therefore held up for a long period, very critical period, to the federal matching money that we had coming to us from the Federal Election Commission. Carter, at that period, was able to borrow from himself. He loaned his campaign, which you could legally do, do the money to put paid operatives and paid operations in Iowa, and we weren't able to do that, they would have been good if we had a lot of money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=592.0,666.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 2020 hindsight. If you could go back in time, would you change the manner in which you ran the campaign?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=667.0,672.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, I'd do the same thing, both because it was a conscious style decision and also because of the necessity of doing it that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=673.0,683.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You You were described by some as a Wallace without the racism, and at one point in a march 1576 article in Milwaukee Journal, you were quoted as saying that you were you were trying. You were uniting the McGovern and wall in constituency, excuse me, can you explain what you meant by that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=684.0,704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, this kind of thing, of course, Wallace was a figure abhorrent to Me and despicable and a poor thing despite his eventual attempts at apologies, I think, was never able to erase the terrible things he did to people in Alabama and throughout the country and exacerbating the problems of race. But a thing that really impressed me was that after Eugene McCarthy, a leftist candidate for president in 1968 was out of the race against Johnson. Polls showed that a substantial portion of his supporters said they were going to vote for Wallace, and at that time, that was a very shocking fact. How could they? But we've seen it again and again since then, for example, we've seen it again with John McCain. Senator John McCain of Arizona, very, very conservative Republican running for president, but who had a bunch of progressive Democrats who supported him, and I think a part of all that is the aura that each of those candidates had that they were against The way things were and they were against the establishment and the system, so that Wallace did have some good, populist kind of supporters who didn't agree with him on race. And that's, that's what I meant by that. I meant to try to get those people back. And also what we wanted to do is this. Wallace once said that to be a successful candidate, you he said, You have to get the you have to put the hay down where the goats can get at it. You've got to speak a language that people understand. And I felt that, that I could do, that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=705.0,847.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: your your campaign audiences were often reported as being largely long haired hippies, hippie types. Was that true and and if so, do you think it hurt your campaign?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=848.0,859.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It was, it was a very mixed for example, you know, in place like Lincoln Nebraska, when we had our big outdoor meeting to organize that state, in every state, once we got a massive supporters of sufficient size, we'd have a statewide meeting and organize a campaign and choose a manager for the state, and so forth. And in Lincoln, most of that audience were red faced farmers, where the top of their forage were white, where their bottle caps as they rode the tractors had shaded them from the sun. So we had all types. But it is true that what I was. Trying to do was to put together people of all kinds. And some of those were these alienated people, the kind who had supported Robert Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy to some degree, a few that had supported people like Wallace. I went down to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, for example, once at a huge meeting in a hotel ballroom in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and and I told this, this group, I said, I said, last night in Wisconsin, I'm going to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and I'm going to put together the, the best looking coalition of all kinds of people, some American Indians, blacks, a lot of my redneck kin folks, my people had come from Mississippi. My dad's people, I want to put together the best looking political meeting anybody ever saw in Mississippi or the damnedest race riot one or the other. And people laughed like hell. And a distant relative of mine came up to me afterwards, and white guy and tears his eyes said, I waited all my life to hear people talk like you do. Well, that was my ambition, was to put together all of these various kinds of people and and, and our crowds were like that, but a Secret Service agent told me, when I later had Secret Service, he laughingly said, you know, a lot of the people in your audience are people we used to try to keep away from Birch Bayh. My detail had once worked for in birch Bayh's campaign. I didn't take Secret Service for a long time, it finally did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=860.0,1002.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: A number of people thought you were a radical.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1003.0,1004.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, you know, Evans and Novak wrote, once wrote an article on me and Mondale in 68 for Harper's Magazine. I think it was and they called us establishment radicals, which I think was about right, probably for me. You know, I'm not, I'm not a bomb thrower, protester. I never liked March as much and and I'm not a third party person, so that's, you know, I think that's what that's not a bad way to have described me at the time, establishment, radical, looking after all, a member of the United States Senate, that's right, and chairman of the Democratic Party.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1005.0,1057.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Looking back, do you think your campaign may have had the effect of of aiding Mo Udall by by casting the glow of moderation over him, possible,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1058.0,1068.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: but I don't really think it had much effect one way or another like that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1069.0,1073.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: although you you suggest in your book Potomac fever that The some of the other candidates borrowed heavily from your issues and themes like full employment and tax reform, breaking up the oil companies. Was that the case, or were those just the liberal issues of the time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1074.0,1092.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think that's true. And then Carter himself later told me, and he told other people, that he borrowed from my campaign, both in issues and in style. You know, he began eventually to, in the general election, to stay in people's homes, for example, and he walked on his Inaugural Day down Pennsylvania Avenue. He told me that himself, and he told others. And I think that's true, and I do think that in the that people, if you look at the first debates, where we all appear together, and the last debate, you find some movement on the part of some others, maybe in the emphasis they gave to issues, or in some ways, I think just paying more attention to them. So I do think it had some effect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1093.0,1140.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Thinking of those debates in 1975 the Liberal candidate spoke at a series of five issue forums sponsored by the Americans for democratic action and some liberal unions. As I understand it, you almost always received the most applause, but Mo Udall won the straw polls. Why was that? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1141.0,1161.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: can't remember about the straw polls in those but virtually always, I think in joint appearances, I got the most Applause Now, and I don't remember about these things. It depends on the audience. I was contesting primarily with birch Bay for the new democratic coalition endorsement in Massachusetts and in New York. I think when both those places, what we did was to keep him from getting the endorsement. In California, I got it the. It was there called CDC, California Democratic coalition, I think. But I can't remember these particular forms that you're talking about. I do remember this, though, about a forum where I got the most applause, or I thought best response, but the result, I think, at least on the television audience, was different, and that was we all appeared at a giant meeting in Iowa which was taped, and I spoke to that audience in sort of the old style way of speaking to a political crowd, and, you know, sort of red faced and yelling and so forth. And I went away from there feeling very good. There wasn't any question. I had made the best impression. That evening, I was staying with some people in Northern Iowa at their home, and we turned on the television to see the taped program of that debate, and it was just overwhelmingly clear that Jimmy Carter was the best he had spoken in much more calm television tones, and it came across as much better on television. Mine, on the other hand, seemed a little bit too frothy and fiery, or, Yes, a little bit too fiery. And that was a that was a shock to me too. It also convinced me. Well, I was already convinced by then, that was late in the Iowa campaign, that Carter was probably going to carry my serious was going to win. Yeah, the Iowa.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1162.0,1320.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So you by Iowa. You thought that Carter was I thought he'd win","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1321.0,1324.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: in Iowa, in Iowa by when I wasn't sure he'd win elsewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1325.0,1328.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Let's talk about LaDonna for a minute. Your wife at the time, LaDonna Harris, actively campaigned with you, and in fact, had quite a following of her own, as I recall, yes, what effect do you think her participation had on your campaign? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1329.0,1342.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think really great. I should point out what you may not know. I'm not sure she and I have been divorced now for 18 or 19 years. I remarried. She lives here, continues to have Americans for any opportunity. She lives in New Mexico, and I see her regularly. Had much with her yesterday. She was a really vital part of that campaign, as she was in all of my campaigns. And I think in joint appearances was a very humanizing kind of influence. It made me less of a sort of formal politician to people. They saw me as more human, I think, in her presence than they might have otherwise, helped to humanize me. And I think she was a great influence on me in regard to a lot of issues as well. She had a particular appeal to for my campaign for women and minorities and and she was more or less scheduled separately from me. She we sent her to a lot of places on her own. And I thought she she did a really terrific job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1343.0,1415.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were many of the other wives of candidates actively campaigning. Do you recall?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1416.0,1420.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No. You saw Rosalynn Carter with Jimmy some and I think she also campaigned on her own. But I don't believe that was true of any of the others. Not birch by and not not Shriver, except a little bit Eunice Shriver, I think was, went with him to some things, but I don't think anybody campaigned to the degree that LaDonna did, though maybe Rosalynn was there was was close.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1421.0,1454.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you or LaDonna know Moe's wife, Ella Udall, had met her,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1455.0,1460.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: but didn't know her well. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1461.0,1463.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how about the role of humor in politics? Mo, of course, was known for the humor he employed, and you were known for your sense of humor as well. What role does humor play in politics?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1464.0,1474.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, should it play? I think it don't play a big role. It's one time I was a when I was a state senator, there was a guy who was governor, Howard Edmonton, starting off as governor, as happens with every governor and every president that will start out popular, you know, and you you can't imagine that they're going to ever be unpopular. And while he was still popular, this governor. Who was Howard Edmondson, whom I later beat for the Democratic nomination for the United States Senate. I was in little town back in my home state senate district, and a guy, Aaron Neal, said to me, tell me about this guy, Edmondson, the governor. And I said, Well, you know, he's very progressive, he's reform minded, he's very smart, and he kind of brushed all that aside. He says, Does he ever laugh? And I thought a minute, and I said, Well, I've never seen him laugh. And he said, Well, that tells you a lot about it. And I think that's true. I think you ought to be able to see the sort of the absurdity of things and be able to laugh about things. And that was certainly true in my campaign. And of course, Moe, of course, is well noted for that. One of the most famous things to come out of that campaign was his story, which Poor Little Joe Biden tried to appropriate later. Oh yes, the barber shop. That's one of the best stories ever in politics, I think, where the barber said, Oh yes, we were just laughing about that yesterday or laughing about that this morning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1475.0,1575.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's right, yeah, that's that's definitely one of his most well known jokes, your strategy was to place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1576.0,1585.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It wasn't a joke. That's an actual thing that happened to move. Yeah, it was. That's why he resented Joe Biden using it as if it had happened to him. Biden told that story when he was running for President later on, as if that had and they said to him, oh yes, Senator Biden, we were just laughing about that yesterday. Mo said, you know, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it was some joke. He was appropriate, but that's something that actually happened to me. Mo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1586.0,1611.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: used to say about jokes once you use them three times, but that one was that one actually joke.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1612.0,1617.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, that was a real, real occurrence, and that's what that my humor was that kind of stuff. I told people about things that people actually said or did, like my mama said this or that, or whatever. And two things that people quote of mine a great deal about that campaign is I said, and you know, they everybody wrote, and does write about the Iowa caucuses that it's a winnowing out process. And I said at the press conference where I ran third in that Iowa caucus, the winnowing out process has begun, and I've been winnowed in. And the other that jillians of people is hardly a month goes by. Somebody somewhere doesn't quote what I said after New Hampshire, they asked me at the press conference, well, what happened? Why didn't you win here? And I said, ours was a campaign of the little people, and I guess they couldn't reach the levers. I said, we're going to have to give them some stools for the Massachusetts primary. And I think that's something Jim hottower and I giggled and laughed about as we were walking down toward the the press conference. Yeah, I think humor is a very important thing, and I and I think it says a lot about a person, whether or not they there, they've got some humor about them. Gary Hart, for example, just could not he couldn't even tell a joke. I saw him in a one pathetic attempt at it, in a joint meeting with some other candidates for president, and people were just scratching their head, what Bill Clinton? Wasn't that good at it at first, but he's with writers and help. He's got","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1618.0,1721.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you. You mentioned in your book that your your strategy for the 76 campaign was to to place in the top three in the early primaries, and then the top two in the middle primaries, and and then be first by the time the later ones, such as Iowa. Your Iowa was the first. I'm sorry, Ohio, yeah, I meant Ohio. You were off to a very good start in Iowa, which was January 19, 1976 you came in third, with Carter coming in first, and then by second. What did, what did you do? So well, in Iowa, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1722.0,1755.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: everything worked just right. We it was a, you know, I was a retail and politics state, and we had huge volunteer operation in there. Our entire national staff, practically was in Iowa. Then what happened was Oklahoma? Well, two things happened, one was Oklahoma, and the other was Florida. We had made a decision not to go to Florida, and one reason, and so had everybody else, except Carter and George Wallace. And Carter was able, in the process of meeting Wallace there, to project himself nationally as the Democratic alternative to Wallace. He was a good southerner. He. As compared to a racist Southerner, and that proved to be a really key thing for him. It was incidentally, Carter's progressive views in regard to race that helped him. That southern black supported him. For example, like Daddy King, Dr king's father supported him. Was a huge help to Carter among white liberals in the north and Iowa, for example. So Mississippi happened between Iowa and New Hampshire in a positive way for Carter, but Oklahoma happened for me, as Jim Hightower would say, our crack staff hadn't thought about Oklahoma. Oklahoma had to put its caucuses up earlier. And like a lot of people want to do these days in these western states, you know, they say, well, the process is over before we get in it. So not having to do with my running, they had changed their caucus system, and all of a sudden it dawned on us that after Iowa, instead of being able to pick up and move to New Hampshire like Mo Udall and others were going to do. Udall was badly wounded in Iowa, we were going to have to send everybody to Oklahoma. So we did nothing at all. We were able to do anything in New Hampshire. We picked up everybody from Iowa and put them on busses and cars and airplanes to Oklahoma, and they spent, all you know, every waking moment, organizing Oklahoma against a really hard onslaught from Carter, who had the very vigorous and active support of the conservative Democratic Governor David Boren and Lloyd Bentsen, who was the next door neighbor senator was running those two put on huge campaigns in Oklahoma. We wound up, therefore, in this kind of position with Oklahoma, we kept trying to say, you know, to press people trying to talk it down, saying, Well, you know, Fred hadn't actually lived in Oklahoma, you know, for a long time. He's been in Washington and so on. And they would say, Oh, yes, but where's he from then? Virginia. I mean, everybody's got to be from somewhere. What's his home state? So Oklahoma had to be our home state, of course, and therefore it was a no win situation. If I carried it. People say, Well, sure, that's his home state. If I didn't carry it, well, then it was a terrible blow. Can't even carry his home state. We managed to eke out what was about a tie at the caucus night with Carter, which we considered to be about, okay, and then pick up and hustle on up there to New Hampshire. But we got to New Hampshire, of course, and found that Mo Udall had made enormous inroads. He was running some television. He'd gotten the support of who was, the endorsement of person who had been unwilling to do Nixon's bidding in the Watergate, Archibald Cox, Archibald Cox, and they were advertising that. And so we started very much behind. We brought in volunteers from everywhere and brought in all our staff and so forth, but it was a catch up operation from then on. Did you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=1756.0,2011.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you ever run into more as staff personally in during the New Hampshire campaigns?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2012.0,2016.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, a lot. But I don't have any specific recollections","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2017.0,2020.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and recollection. You said, you you said, after New Hampshire in your book, you said the handwriting was on the wall, and we knew it that night after you'd lost New Hampshire, that's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2021.0,2031.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right. My press secretary, Frank Greer was typical, though, of our main supporters and others. He didn't want to say and didn't want to believe that it was over the three of us. Frank Greer later, you know the he handled the advertising for President Clinton and so forth, but this was his first political campaign. Frank Greer and Jim Hunter and I walking down together to the press conference where I was to say, how come we lost, and that we did lose. Greer kept saying, oh, with every step. Well, listen, I think you know, you could say that actually, this, you know, was a victory, because, you know, and I said, I said, Hell, Frank, I mean, we lost. Well, it was pretty clear, but still, there was some hope that with the support of some unions and a lot of good progressive people in Massachusetts, that we might sort of somehow pick up the campaign again. But you placed fifth","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2032.0,2096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in Massachusetts in cyber. Qualified place, and really","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2097.0,2100.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: believe it, and it was really over, I thought, on the night of New Hampshire, and it came as a big blue to us. We thought we were doing much better. Our our canvassing showed much better than it turned out. And the night before the election, you know, we had a huge rally. Walter Cronkite said to me, Fred, you're going to win this thing. We thought we're going to do a lot better than, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2101.0,2131.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: mean, it was close. Are you talking about New Hampshire or Massachusetts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2132.0,2134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He said, this huge rally we had, and God, it was just wonderful. And he said, Fred, you're going to win this thing. I thought we were going to do much better in New Hampshire, but as I said, You told him about such a small number of votes in any event. I mean, it's not very many votes one way or another here, between these various places, I therefore knew pretty much it was over after New Hampshire. The trouble was, and if you didn't know it, you'd know it this way. Before that, whenever I traveled, I had four or five reporters always with me. ABC was generally with me, and CBS and sometimes NBC and nearly always Associated Press, sometimes Washington Post, New York Times. But after New Hampshire, suddenly I've got nobody traveling with me. It's the same thing that happened to John McCain lately. I don't mean John McCain, Bill Bradley. You just can't imagine what the change is. So that you might be saying, you know, people saying, Well, Fred, why aren't you speaking out on so and so? Well, hell, I am,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2135.0,2203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: but nobody knows it. I remember when that happened to Mo, yeah, all of a sudden the press wasn't there. Not only you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2204.0,2208.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: have you can't get any money, but you can't get any free notice either. So if we, if we hadn't thought it and I did that it was over. That was sort of brought home to you every day","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2209.0,2224.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: afterwards, after New Hampshire and Massachusetts, where Moe came in second. What did you think his chances were at that point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2225.0,2233.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thought Carter was going to win. You did still. I didn't think Carter was going to win for sure, until after New Hampshire, I thought he was going to win Iowa before he did as I mentioned. I thought, after I looked at that televised rally, I thought, from what I already knew, Carter was going to win Iowa, then he wins Mississippi. I mean, Florida and Mississippi, Mississippi and then Oklahoma, as it turned out, he got more delegates in the final thing we didn't know for a while than I did in Oklahoma. Well, I knew he was the he's the favorite then, and after New Hampshire, it was clear to me he was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2234.0,2279.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: going to win well, and with so many liberals running and splitting the vote,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2280.0,2283.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, and then people getting in late, you know, scoop, Jackson tried it and so forth, but it was just, you can't do that too late.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2284.0,2291.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Wisconsin, you knew I'd get to that. Yeah, as you wrote, you knew, after New Hampshire and Massachusetts, as you said here, that the campaign was pretty your campaign was pretty much dead in the water. Carter was ahead with Mo a close second. Wisconsin was clearly a very critical state for Moe. You were still, however, on the ballot and and even though you decided not to mount a major campaign or a serious campaign, a number of people were concerned that you would draw enough votes away from mo that he would he would lose. Did anyone in the Udall campaign, either mo himself or any of the staff people, personally contact you and ask you to withdraw from the ballot? I don't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2292.0,2338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think so. Mo didn't, and I don't think anybody else did, but I couldn't. I wanted to. I mean, it's clear to me that I'm not any longer in this thing and but I'm roaming around, for example, Pennsylvania, sort of going through the motions along about the same time. But there were two principal reasons why I couldn't withdraw prior to Wisconsin. One, not the major reason, but one reason was we had, I had mortgaged my home, a second mortgage on my home, and owed a hell lot of money otherwise. And it was in order to come out anywhere close to even, I had to get the federal matching money. The law was pretty clear that the Federal Election Commission would only pay candidates if I withdrew. There was a great doubt. And I think. Correctly that the federal matching money would not be paid to a non candidate. The second thing, and more importantly, was this, my supporters in Wisconsin elsewhere, but particularly in Wisconsin, but some other places too, wanted to be delegates, and they had filed as delegate candidates. For me, this was strictly true in Wisconsin of some labor people, including, for example, the Service Employees International Union, had been such strong supporters of mine. And there were some other unions as well, graphic arts union, some others, I can't remember whether they were important in Wisconsin or not, but service employees and some other unions were and they said, If you withdraw, they knew it was over too. They knew I wasn't going to be the nominee if you withdraw. However, prior to the Wisconsin primary, there's no chance that our people who run as your delegates can get elected delegates to the national convention. Well, I didn't think they could get elected, you know, without an active campaign on my part anyway, I didn't think they could get elected delegates, in any event, since I wasn't actively campaigning. But my you know, the obligation was these labor people in particular, they weren't obligated to me. I obligated to them for all they had done for me, and so I agreed to stay in through the Wisconsin primary. And as I recall, they didn't get elected delegates anyway, that was their hope.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2339.0,2495.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In the end, you received, I guess, over 8000 votes, and Moe lost to Carter by just under 8000 votes in Peter Bourne's book entitled Jimmy Carter's campaign, he speculates that, and I quote, had Udall persuaded Harris to pull out and pledge him his support a week earlier, and had he received a few 1000 votes scattered among other liberal candidates, He would have defeated Carter. Do you think that's true? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2496.0,2522.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: don't have any. It seemed to me that there's no way to know, and that's kind of pointless speculation. I was asked that first lecture I ever gave here was lecture under the stars in summer of 76 I actually, that same year out here at the University of New Mexico, somebody got up and asked me, had you pulled out? Would MO You doll? I mean, let's see, wouldn't MO You doll, something like that, if you had pulled out when MO You do have got the nomination or whatever. And I said, It remind me something my uncle Ralph used to say, used to say, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bust his ass every time he took a hop. It's one of those, if questions that I don't think you can there's no way to know. But it wasn't a thing within my power to do in any event. And I was asked this in another interview from a couple of guys who were writing a book. And the first draft of the book, which I also reviewed for the University of Arizona, press, put it down, totally wrong, and they recorded it too, and I think the publisher might have changed it. They said that I didn't withdraw from Wisconsin because labor people were against Udo, and therefore didn't want me to pull out and give him some advantage. I don't see how they misunderstood me, and I'm sure they've changed that by now. The Labor thing was not against Udo in that instance, the Wisconsin thing, it was, you know, God, we stood by. You don't leave us high and dry. Now, our people want to be delegates, and you say, I'm not a candidate, then hell, they don't have any chance at all to be elected delegates to the national convention at that point. I don't know the answer to that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2523.0,2636.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: at that point in time, but I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2637.0,2640.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: think Carter would have gone on to win whether he won Wiscon,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2641.0,2644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Wisconsin or not. Which would you have had any preference at that point for Udall or Carter?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2645.0,2651.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I'd like Udall better. Is that right? Yeah, you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2652.0,2657.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you again in your 76 book. You mentioned that you described Moe as as a man I thought was particularly suited to President, to be president, having grown tough in his outspokenness on the issues as the primaries progressed. What kind of President Do you think he would have made?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2658.0,2673.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think he made good. He's he did get tougher, I think, during the campaign on the issues harder edged, and I liked that. It was one of the reasons why, as I said, some of my supporters wanted me to run, even though he was running, to start with that they didn't think he was but I think he became better candidate. But I think what would have been the. Good as the president most because he had rapposition on issues, but also is he was very good in in dealing with people. I think he was a very good negotiator. He.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294#t=2674.0,2676.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270294/transcript/78612/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/612/original/azu_ms396-017_side2_a.vtt?1744913795","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/612/original/azu_ms396-017_side2_a.vtt?1744913795"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 4 - azu_ms396-018_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":864.576,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/295/original/azu_ms396-018_side1_a.mp3?1744847817","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":864.576,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yes, we're now on tape 43 with Senator Fred Harris. You've now had experience in two presidential campaigns. How have things changed in the presidential races? How do you think they should change","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=0.0,18.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the major changes in the amount of money involved soft money and independent expenditures. Bill Clinton, in 1996 prior to the conventions, raised some $30 million in soft money and spent it in a tax on dole who was going to be the Republican nominee, but did it within the law. So that soft money is money that is used for, in that case, so called issues advertising where you don't say vote for somebody, vote against somebody by the party. And it is unlimited as to source. You can get it from corporate, money, whatever, and unlimited as to amount. He got it in huge chunks, 250,000 100,000 that is, I think, a very alarming development in presidential politics and independent expenditures, which the first one self money is allowed by ruling earlier by the Federal Election Commission, Buckler versus Vallejo, was a decision in which the Supreme Court said that you can't limit how much a you can't limit expenditures. They're different from contributions because of freedom of speech in political campaigns, and you can't limit, therefore, what a rich person spends on his own campaign or her own campaign, and you can't limit what a non collusive independent source spends for or against a candidate. All those things have caused us a lot of problem with increased the increased influence of money. So that's the main thing still. However, with federal campaign, public financing for president, it'd be easier for me to run for president today than it would be to run for the United States Senate. Is that right? And also, very fortuitously, it's still true that you can run for president sort of one state at a time. It's kind of like running for governor County at a time, and if you do well in the first county, then you raise a little money to run the next county. That's that's still true running for president. So I like all that, but the soft money and independent expenditures all that as a and the candidate, rich candidate, who doesn't take public money, like Ross Perot or like George W Bush, can spend unlimited amounts to so those are great problems, but otherwise, things are about like they were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=19.0,183.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you. You removed yourself from the race not long, couple of days, I think, after Wisconsin, how long after withdrawing? Did you move to New Mexico? Almost at once. Was it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=184.0,197.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I had always assumed that I would when I could live anywhere I wanted to, I'd move to New Mexico. I started coming here in the 50s, vacationing, and I came at least once a year, every year thereafter I'd lived in Oklahoma because that's where I grew up, and I lived in Washington because that's where the Senate met. But I'd always assumed that at some point when I could live wherever I wanted to I moved to New Mexico, so when that race was over, decided this is time to get out of Dodge, and others in my campaign did the same thing. Jim Hightower, who was from Texas, thought it's time to go, go back home, go back to the grass roots. And he went back to Texas. So I moved out here in 1976 from while I was still in Washington, I had an offer from the University of New Mexico to join the political science department, and that fit exactly what I wanted to do. I was writing a book, too, and so I came on out here. I like this place better than anywhere I've been in the world, and I still do the first year I came here, the borrowed a guy's cabin up on the Pecos River East of Santa Fe in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains, and made that headquarters. Went up to Taos Pueblo for the first time when I was in the second grade. We made Taos Pueblo. We went to an opera Carmen at Santa Fe. We. We went to the green corn dance at Santo Domingo Pueblo, which must have had 700 dancers. We camped at Bandelier National Monument with those cave dwellings and so forth. And I thought this is the most exotic place I've ever been, and it still is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=198.0,316.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'd have to agree. Personally, I like the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=317.0,318.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: mountain hiking, and I like the biking, long distance biking, and the cross country skiing and all that, so I came right on out here as soon as I was free to do so after that, after being out of the presidential campaign, what classes do you teach here? I teach always two courses. One is an introduction to American government, which is a large introductory course. It's a now we're, we've got it. We let it go to 160 I used to let it get bigger than that, up to 250 students. And then I was teach a course on Congress, which now we're, we're letting go to about 80 rather large courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=319.0,361.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Have you remained politically active? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=362.0,363.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I lately was the state chair of the Democratic Party here in New Mexico in 68 and part of 69 I was trying to help get a young guy, like a lot, former mayor here in Albuquerque, Martin Chavez, elected governor. We didn't make it. We couldn't meet the incumbent Republican, but we did get Tom Udall elected to Congress, which was a good thing. We elected all democratic statewide officers and re elected a majority to the House, State House representatives. What's your impression of now you state Chair of the Common Core.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=364.0,398.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You are state chair. Now, okay, and as we discussed earlier, you're running for for board, national board. Well, I'm a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=399.0,405.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: candidate. Nominee, right, right? The committee nominee. What?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=406.0,410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What are your impressions of Tom Udall, who was Stuart Udall, son who just was elected in 98","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=411.0,415.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I like Tom Udall. I've known him long time. My son in law, Manuel Carina, who's now a Democratic candidate for the statewide Office of Court of Appeals, was his chief deputy for eight years as attorney general. And so I've seen Tom a lot and no great deal about him. He I think he's a he's like Stuart. He really feels very deeply about the issues. He's a good progressive. He's honest and and I think he's just like a duck that's found the water in going to Washington, DC. I think he's just found a fit for him","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=416.0,456.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: well and with Mark Udall. Mark","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=457.0,458.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: also is there, of course. Do you see","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=459.0,462.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Stuart Udall at all? Do you ever socialize with Yes, I seem","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=463.0,468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: fairly frequently at democratic functions. Primarily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=469.0,477.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I always ask as a final question, I always ask the same thing in a lot of these interviews, we tend to speak about the the most strengths. I wonder if we can flip the tables and and if there are any weaknesses of Mo that that you were aware of?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=478.0,499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, none occurred to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=500.0,508.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think of them. One thing that I think would have been a really helpful thing to moe would have been if his family history had been more highlighted while he was in public office. I only learned it later from Stuart about how they grew up in that little town that was half Mormon and half Hispanic, just about, I guess. And just, you know, that whole background Stewart, for example, and I've talked several times about this. He actually worked horses, as I did as a kid, and grew up like that in that rural area and small town background. And I think all of that would have, would have been very good for more for for people to know that's interesting. What about Mo Yeah, it would have made him, I think, more understandable and human. I think he there was perhaps a kind of slight remoteness about him, not nearly so much say as with a guy like Walter Mondale, Mondale was the funniest and the most personable. Is person when you see him, but he could, he could never bring himself to reveal much about himself or his history. Personally, most politicians can't avoid the. Putting almost any issue they discuss in a personal context. You know, I remember when my father was ill and he, you know, he couldn't pay his bills or whatever. Monday was just almost rigidly opposed to your knowing that much about him personally, Moe wasn't like that, but I think that he would have profited more had we known more, had the public know more about his background and his family and the way he was raised, and where he was raised, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=509.0,629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so forth. That's an interesting observation. So what's what's next for you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=630.0,637.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I really like teaching, you know. And I've been doing this a long time now, since 1976 I started in the fall of 76 and, and I continue to be very much involved in politics. I'm, you know, I'm always on somebody's steering committee, running for governor, whatever, and, and, and then lately, I've gotten into fiction writing. I'd always thought at this stage in my life I'd write fiction. I've written a bunch of other books, but now I'm into writing fiction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=638.0,669.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, I hope you stick to mystery writing. I'm really enjoying my publisher","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=670.0,672.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: is Harper Colin, and I've got a great editor there and wonderful person. And after this first book, they wanted me coyote revenge. They wanted me to write next a political novel like all the king's men, which they said you can set, if you want to in 1930s Oklahoma. What I'd done back before started writing fiction. I did a lot of research about the 30s in Oklahoma, and I had intended to write a non fiction book, which I was thinking about calling before the world changed. Because things changed so family scattered. Everything changed at the end of World War Two. Well, when I finally turned my hand to fiction. I used that sort of stuff in this first novel. But then I told Noah. They said, we'll get back to okie Dunn, who's the protagonist in this coyote ruin, but write the political novel first. So I said, Well, no, let me write one more mystery first next. So I did this called easy pickings, comes out in November, as I told you. And then they said, well, now okey, now write the political level. So I talked him into this kind of a compromise. I'd write one more next, the okie Dunn mysteries. It's called early returns, because he's running for sheriff to get ladies appointed first. And then I'll turn my hand to the political novel, which we're now calling bedfellows. So I'm on a another two book deal with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=673.0,775.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's exciting. That's exciting just Tony, Tony Hillerman, who's also here at UNC","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=776.0,780.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: all the time. Of course, he give you some pointers, yes, and he's just a wonderful person. He's from Oklahoma, too, you know, oh, I didn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=781.0,786.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: realize that. Yeah, I didn't realize that, yeah. Well, that sounds wonderful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=787.0,790.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Funny story for you about this blurb, you know, he wrote a blurb. Everybody authors write burbs for each other, and one time was bunch of us having lunch, all writers, and I said to them, Tony was sitting next to me. And this other author by the name of Norman Zollinger, very famous here in New Mexico, was sitting next to him. He just died lately. And I said to some of these others, Tony Hillerman wrote a really nice blurb for me on my book coyote revenge. Norm Zollinger, teasing Tony spoke up and he said, Tony Hellerman is a blurb whore. He said he would write a blurb for the Albuquerque phone book, but he said, Tony Fred has just got one rule. He will either read your book or he'll write a blurb, but he will not do both, so Tony wrote a great blurb.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=791.0,848.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well. Thank you so much for participating in this. Had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=849.0,851.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that many questions because I wasn't thinking about talking about only anything just but more. No, this has","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=852.0,859.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: been excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295#t=860.0,862.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270295/transcript/78613/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/613/original/azu_ms396-018_side1_a.vtt?1744913825","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/613/original/azu_ms396-018_side1_a.vtt?1744913825"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 4 - azu_ms396-018_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":328.848,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/296/original/azu_ms396-018_side2_a.mp3?1744847819","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":328.848,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, okay, we're on side B. Then it really was helpful for you to be from Congress, as opposed to from the Senate or something as well. Well, maybe from","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=0.0,7.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the Senate would have been more or less the same. But then coming from the outside, not being a member of Congress, either the House or the Senate, yeah, it was a real advantage","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=8.0,21.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1988 10 years after you left Congress, Stewart's 98 I'm sorry, 1998 Yes, Stuart's son, Tom Udall, was elected to your old district. Isn't it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=22.0,36.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, half of the old district, because, oh, is it? Yeah? Now there's three districts, as opposed to two. When,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=37.0,45.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when I had that does, does a new district include Albuquerque at all? Or is it mostly? It's mostly Santa Fe now there's, yeah. Do you know Tom Yes. What are your impressions of him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=46.0,56.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I didn't support him, obviously, you know, I had my own. I think he'll grow into it. You know, I don't think he's a Mo Udall, but nor will ever be. I don't, I don't believe because mo had more definite ideas of to where he wanted to go, and maybe in time, Tom will develop those","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=57.0,81.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you know Stuart, yes, you know Mo, yeah, you know Tom. How, how? How would you compare these men? Well, of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=82.0,90.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: course, to me, Mo is number one, you know, because that's my that was my good friend, and we worked together for many, many, many years. Mo had more of a sense of direction, of where he wanted to go and what he wanted to do, and did, I think Stuart comes closer to moe in in that respect, and it's too early to tell about Tom. Depends how, how he develops his career.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=91.0,124.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, I have one final question, which I ask everybody. Yes, we've talked a lot about most strengths. What if any weaknesses did? Did you observe?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=125.0,137.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: You know, I never looked, looked for any but, but I think we have missed one of his strengths, and that is his self deprecation. He was always, always had a story of some kind or another. My favorite one is, you know, it's very famous now that he was running for president in New Hampshire, and he walks into this barber shop and what was it? He said, I'm Moo Dahl. I'm running for president. And the guy said, Yeah, we were just laughing about it that, you know, that's but he always would tell the story about when Senator Hayden first went to the to the Senate, they asked him, you know, how Arizona was, and he said, Well, it's fine. All we need is a little water and a few good men. And somebody got up and said, That's all they need in hell, you know? And so he always had some kind of a some kind of a story, and that was one of his great strengths, on 101 rotary that was one of Mo's great strengths, as a matter of fact, other than his sense of direction, and he knew where he was going, the that he could diffuse The issue with a little story that that he had was that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=138.0,222.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as you may know, the new United States Institute for Environmental dispute resolution was formed under the Udall Foundation, and partly in honor, in honor of Mo was that was that part of How he resolved disputes was the use of humor,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=223.0,243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: very much so, or he'd run over you, at least from my perspective. You know that I sat kind of as the opposition to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=244.0,256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: to the legislation. Yeah, he run over you nicely. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=257.0,258.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, yeah. He was like, I told you, you know that story about this pile here looks like $250,000 would be the right figure, yep. And you, oh, sure. That's why we always remained, remained good friends. I would visit him when he was at the Veterans Hospital, and it would break my heart to see him. I never knew whether he knew that we were there or not. I suspect that he that he did but, and that's the tragedy of the whole thing, that that, I think his mind was working very well. Yeah, but his body, you know, was not able to respond. And that must be the frustrating thing about it, especially","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=259.0,306.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: for someone like Mo, who was such an orator and yes, yes and an","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=307.0,310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: athlete, yes, yeah. I never knew him as an athlete, but, but I did, of course, as an orator and and a player in the political business.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=311.0,322.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, thank you very much. Okay, your participation in this program.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296#t=323.0,325.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146504/file/270296/transcript/78614/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/614/original/azu_ms396-018_side2_a.vtt?1744913852","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/614/original/azu_ms396-018_side2_a.vtt?1744913852"}]}]}]}