{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/4j09w0bp16/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Charles Ares"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 1, tape 12"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Ares, Charles (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-06-09"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Charles Ares conducted by Julie Ferdon. Ferdon discusses his childhood and life in Tucson. Ares was a student at the University of Arizona at the time that Morris Udall was a student, and became a lawyer working with the Udall brothers' law practice."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.003 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Charles Ares conducted by Julie Ferdon. Ferdon discusses his childhood and life in Tucson. Ares was a student at the University of Arizona at the time that Morris Udall was a student, and became a lawyer working with the Udall brothers' law practice."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - azu_ms396-003_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2586.192,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/271/original/azu_ms396-003_side1_a.mp3?1744847751","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2586.192,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape 12 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good afternoon. It's Tuesday, June 9, 1998 and we are in room 122 at the University of Arizona, College of Law in Tucson, Arizona. My name is Julie ferdon, and I would like to welcome Professor Charles Ayers to another in a series of oral history interviews that formed the Morris K Udall history project. Okay, let's get started. I'd like to thank you for your participation, Professor Ayers, and start by just getting a little biographical information about you, like when and where you were born?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1.0,41.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was born in St Mary's Hospital in Tucson, Arizona, September 11, 1926, my parents, at that time lived at Marana. My father was a cotton farmer there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=42.0,53.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What tell us a little what it was like growing up on a cotton farm. Do you remember my","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=54.0,58.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: memories? Of course, that are little dim because it's quite a while ago. Most of my memories are of the Depression, because it hit very shortly after I was born. And my memories of farming at Marana, there are a few fragments of memories in the in the fields and that kind of thing. But mostly they were of the gloom of the depression and the economic disaster that it was for that whole community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=59.0,90.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How did it affect people in that community? Well, they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=91.0,95.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had moved into that into the Marana area to open up what was called the post project. That whole area of land out there's very fertile land around the Santa Cruz River, where the Santa Cruz river spreads out and sort of disappears now, and a guy named post had developed it as a farming area and sold the land to farmers. He had recruited whole townships of people from Colorado, including my parents, and they bought one of the farms. Purchased it, of course, on time. And one of the problems with it was that the water source for irrigation was a cortera, the pump, the well was at cortera. There was a concrete ditch that ran along the highway out to Marana. May have gone further than that. I don't really remember remember that, but my father was astute enough to realize that if you, if you owned the land but didn't own the water source, that you were in a precarious position. And I guess the contract under which they bought the land this, this is just hearsay, but I think it's true that a contract specified that they weren't to drill wells on their own land, so they really were dependent on the cortera water. My father saw that as a danger and tried to organize the community to purchase the water with the well and the water works. But was he was unable to do it, and when the Depression came, the price of cotton started down, and the price of water either stayed the same or went up. And as a result, I think it's true. I'm not an historian of the event, but it's family lore that virtually everybody there who were still paying for their land on time lost the land, and many of them, the company that the finance company that had purchased the mortgages, traded them land in California for their equity in the land in Marana. Some of them went to Visalia, fruit fruit orchards and things of that sort. They offered my father, nothing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=96.0,239.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think maybe that's where your populace leanings? No question start. No question you. You moved back to Tucson around 1935 if I'm correct,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=240.0,252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the chronology is not is not clear to me. Actually, we left Marana, moved to a farm at Flowing Wells, and then to a farm at continental and then my parents leased a farm that had an apple orchard on it down in El Frida, Cochise County. And I went through the eighth grade down there in El Frida Elfrida, then my parents not wanting to send me to high school in Pierce, which is a little, I'm sure, pretty bad High School in Pierce sent me to California to enter the ninth grade, living with my sister in Santa Monica, and I finished, I guess, half a year. Were there. And by that time, they had moved back to Tucson. So I came back to Tucson and entered Mansfield Junior High School in the ninth grade, I guess. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=253.0,309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then you went to Tucson High School, Tucson and graduated in 1944 and then, as I understand it, you went from there directly to the Navy. Why the Navy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=310.0,323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It was the only Well, I graduated. I was 17 years old. I wouldn't have been 18 until September, and to show you the difference in the world, for at least some people, I wanted to go into the service. The war was on. It was in the last stages, as we then knew, but, or maybe we didn't know, but it was, it really was in the last stages and but I wanted to get in, into the service, and so I, I enlisted when I was 17, and the only branch that would take you the Marines might have, I guess maybe they did, but I was not physically big enough for the Marines","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=324.0,365.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and you, so you were in the Navy for two years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=366.0,369.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I was in the Navy, I guess, about two","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=370.0,372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: years. And from from the Navy you, you came back here and enrolled at the University of Arizona in about 1946 or so, did you find that the post war student body being ex veterans, many of them do? You find a difference in today's student body compared to the post war student body, just in motivation or anything? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=373.0,399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm sure that there are obviously lots of differences, but most of them explained by time and changes, generational changes, I suppose. But that group of returning veterans were older. Many were married. Some had children by that time. They were at at the University of Arizona, and I'm sure most other state universities like this, very, very oriented toward occupations, toward getting an education, in order to get makeup, lost time in developing families and a job and that sort of thing. So they were, no doubt, more serious, more more mature, I suppose, than many undergraduates today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=400.0,448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: When you were a student, you enrolled in 46 and in 46 and seven, Mo was a Mo Udall was a basketball star, and in 47 and 48 he was student body president. Were you aware of him","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=449.0,460.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: then? Or I was aware of him. I didn't know him. Have any","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=461.0,464.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: impressions of him as student body president, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=465.0,468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not that I not really, that I can recall, except that he was obviously, you know, an able person, very outspoken, very sure of himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=469.0,476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, did, did did you know Stuart at this time while you were in college or not, until later, you moved on to the law school in 1949 which was, as I understand it, only two years you had, only two years as an undergrad before moving to the law school. Didn't have to happen that. And I think Morris did something like that too. How does How did that work then? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=477.0,498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the admissions requirements were that you had to have two years of undergraduate work and at least a C average, and you could, you could enter the law school. No doubt it was a very bad system, and it was one of the worst decisions I ever made, to go to law school after two years undergraduate school, I had very bad advice. Why","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=499.0,522.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: is that? Why did I have bad advice? No, no. Why? Why do you think it was bad advice?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=523.0,527.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Because I should have stayed in school and undergraduate school and gotten more education,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=528.0,530.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: broader education. Sure was law school still three, three years, three years as it is now right. How did the law How did Law School differ then than it does today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=531.0,543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, it was, there's no comparison in the quality of the education that we offer now and that we got then. It was much smaller, though the entering my entering class had 108 people in it, but with virtually no admission standards, an awful lot of my classmates should never have been there and and after one semester and one year, they weren't, we graduated 35 I think, out of the 108 was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=544.0,576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: there an attempt to get rid of students, or was that just, I don't know that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=577.0,580.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there was an attempt to get rid of them, but it was perfectly understood that those were the days when they systematically weeded out a third of the class, at least in the first year. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=581.0,591.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: they have any clinical type of classes? It was strictly learning V law,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=592.0,595.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right? Okay. It was a very small faculty, very. Bare bones curriculum, very private law oriented. It was, it was assumed that all the graduates would go into small offices, probably in Arizona. Now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=596.0,611.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in Did you you didn't know Stuart Udall or Morris Udall in law school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=612.0,615.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Either they were both gone by the time I get got to law school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=616.0,618.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Oh, that's right, okay, in in you received your degree, Law Degree in 1952 and you immediately, pretty much, went to Washington, DC to become a clerk for justice. William Douglas, that's right, what? What was your greatest impression of justice. Douglas of lesser impressions too. I'll take any","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=619.0,647.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well of his intellectual brilliance. I mean, this was the most powerful mind I have had ever run into, and probably the most powerful mind I've ever run into. And he thought that the speed of light. He was very perceptive. He was very impatient. He didn't want to waste any time on anything except to get to the merits of something, get to the heart of it. Very demanding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=648.0,673.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you ever have occasion to compare him later in life to Mo Udall, or to anybody else you, you've run into, compared","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=674.0,684.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Douglas to them? Yes, oh, he was unique. No, I don't think I ever, I don't think I ever compared him to Morris. No, not really, not really. He was, he was unique.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=685.0,700.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, after you, you hadn't taken the bar before you left and you returned here and took the bar exam after that, and you went pretty much directly into the county attorney's office. That's right, why the county attorney's office? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=701.0,714.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: one of my classmates, Harry Ackerman, was a deputy county attorney. Morris was the county attorney. Harry was one of the deputies. And Harry and I, we've been quite close in law school, we studied together, and we had always had it in mind that we would probably practice law together after my clerkship. So when I came back, we did. We opened a small law firm. We rented office space from Morrison Stewart in the Valley National Building. They had little COVID whole office up there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=715.0,744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now this was at the same time you were in the county attorney's office. Yeah, you could county","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=745.0,748.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: attorney, the county attorney and all these deputies could practice privately. So Harry and I decided that he would handle the civil Our civil law practice, and I would get some experience trying cases as a deputy county attorney.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=749.0,765.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What were the primary issues that the county attorney's office dealt with? Then,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=766.0,771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: routine crimes we had it was very different from the way it is now. I'm sure homicides were relatively rare, and I remember that we tried, I guess the first homicide case that I participated in, I assisted Morris in a first degree murder case, a capital death penalty case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=772.0,792.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did was there any organized crime, Mafia sorts. There was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=793.0,797.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: organized crime. They had, on occasion, they had had prostitution rings. They had had gambling in this in the state, there was some official corruption, and there had been, you know, those kinds of things happen with some regularity, I suppose, right","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=798.0,821.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: with I'm assuming that the the Attorney General's Office probably didn't have an office down here then, so you were, I don't really think they did okay, so you're probably the show in town for that sort of you told me just the other day that you thought Morris ran the best county attorney's office ever. Could you elaborate?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=822.0,845.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, he hired good people. He had a very interesting staff. I was looking at a picture of of the staff, I guess, in last year of his term, and that staff produced not only Morris, who then later became a congressman and a presidential candidate, but three federal district judges, The dean of a law school,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=846.0,880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, in a very small step. And a former ambassador, that's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=881.0,884.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: right, and a governor ambassador,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=885.0,890.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Raul Castro succeeded mo when he left and did go on to become an ambassador, I believe, under Johnson. Yes, I. And Marianne Ryman, then Richie, later was in that office as well. If there weren't many Hispanic or women lawyers at that time, not very many. Why do you suppose they chose to work at the county attorney's office?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=891.0,914.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, partly because of Morris, he attracted people who, you know, able people who wanted responsibility and and to be encouraged to develop themselves as lawyers. And Morris was a very good one of the reasons I thought he was such a good county attorney was that he would hire good people, and they gave him responsibility and and he would back them up. He supported he Morris himself, had started into the practice of law at a very high level, for for somebody who ran out of law school. So he was accustomed to taking responsibility and doing things, doing things right, and he hired people who were similarly inclined. And I think, I think he he encouraged Mary Ann, who had, I don't know that there was more than one woman in her class or but probably not, maybe only one or two at the most. But she was an able lawyer and a good lawyer, and it was a good place to put in how to try cases.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=915.0,977.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What? What were your impressions then about Mary? Ann breyman,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=978.0,984.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, she was little ahead of me in law school, and I didn't know her very well. I just I knew her, but we were not close friends or anything, but she was obviously a very she was a good lawyer. She was very serious, very conscientious, and she did her work and did it in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=985.0,1006.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: professional fashion. And how about Raul Castro? Raul was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1007.0,1010.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: really a part time deputy when, when I was in the office, he had a private practice, and he worked part time, as I recall it, as a deputy county attorney, didn't have an awful lot to do with roll, although I knew him reasonably well. My wife had been a student of his when he taught Spanish, and so we knew each other. Never tried a case with him. Where did he teach Spanish? I think here at the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1011.0,1041.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Who were the, who were the people in the office that you said became federal district court judges?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1042.0,1044.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Marianne, right, okay, Richie, she went to the US Attorney's Office, and then, and then ran for a superior court, and then was appointed to the federal bench by, I guess, President Ford,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1045.0,1066.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Fred Marcus, Alfredo Marcus became a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1067.0,1070.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: federal district judge was browning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1071.0,1072.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Browning was not a new browning. Clerked for our law firm Utah and Utah and and the office to crop when they got out of law school. He and Don estes officed across the street from from us, and and Morris referred stuff to, to the running Estes law firm. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1073.0,1096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, now one more question, I think, about the county attorney's office. How has it changed? Or has it changed? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1097.0,1104.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, it's, it's vastly larger now, crime is a very big burden on this community and and the office has gotten very, very large. There's also, it has also become a place for professional prosecutors as people who stay in the prosecutor's office for their whole career, or virtually their whole","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1105.0,1126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: career, when you were, when you worked there, it was more a stepping stone someplace. It was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1127.0,1130.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was a, it was really a way station. I have to say that I don't suppose we were as technically developed. As as lawyers have to be now under present circumstances, the law has gotten a lot more complex. The procedural system is more complicated and and that in that respect, I'm sure they're better prepared than we were at that time. We were generalists. It's a collection of generalists and but I think there was also the sense that we were not apart from the rest of the practicing bar. And I think there is now a sense that prosecutors are have set themselves apart, or the community has set them apart from the rest of the practice","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1131.0,1186.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well. And when you were doing this, you also had your private law practice when at some point in time you while you were doing working simultaneously in the. County attorney's office, and then with Ackerman and Ayers, you moved over to Udall. And Udall, that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1187.0,1205.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was after Morris left the county attorney's office after the ill fated judgeship campaign. It was okay. And then he then he moved his his and Stewart's law firm, down to a building that he had bought on Court Street, and initially, Harry and I rented space from them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1206.0,1226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, and and so when you were still in the county attorney's office was when Stuart first ran for Congress. That's right, in 54 most said in an oral history that was done of him that he had considered running for Congress himself, and, in fact, really wanted to, but deferred to his his older brother. Were you aware of that at all at the time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1227.0,1253.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, see, I didn't have any. I didn't have any real relationship to them. At that time, I went into the office in 53 guess in the fall of 53 and I had, I had worked with Stuart a little bit when I was in law school on political stuff, but I I didn't know anything about the Morris's ambitions to run for Congress at that time. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1254.0,1286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when, so you weren't involved in were you involved in Stewart's campaign at all? No, then or when the same year, Mo Ran for superior court judge, I suppose, as sort of a booby prize or something. Were you involved in that campaign at all? Yeah. How were you involved? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1287.0,1314.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: when Morris announced that he wasn't running for re election to the county attorney's office, naturally, people started looking around for a new horse to ride, and particularly when Morris announced that he was running for judge. Judges don't have any political patronage or anything like that. There's nothing. They can't they can't give anybody anything. Most of my colleagues found something else to do. I didn't. I worked with Morris on his campaign, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1315.0,1347.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how was he was telling us as a campaigner, obvious at that time,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1348.0,1352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, he was, yeah, he was, he was a talented campaigner, tireless, worked hard, did all the right things, some of it, I think he hated I remember one afternoon, hot before the primary, 445, o'clock in the afternoon, stopping at a bar to go in, to shake hands. And it was clear we had to do it. I remember the look on Morris's face as he took this deep breath, because he knew the minute you walk into a bar that time of the afternoon, you're going to catch an awful lot of guff from the barflies and but you have to do it, and you have to smile and make jokes and all that. And wasn't pleasant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1353.0,1401.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I gathered that the results of the campaign weren't pleasant, disastrous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1402.0,1405.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Disastrous. It was, as I recall it now, it was the first year they used voting machines, and they did not have a sense to rotate the names alphabetically. And that combined with the fact that Morris's father was running for Supreme Court, re election of the Supreme Court, and he was at the top of the ballot in the non partisan judicial section. Stewart was running for Congress, for re election to Congress, and he was in the federal, federal office at the top of the ballot. And then people couldn't find Mo. Couldn't find Morris's name because he's down at the bottom of the list. They","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1406.0,1445.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: couldn't vote just a straight Udall ticket. I couldn't do it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1446.0,1450.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and you couldn't you couldn't vote us. You couldn't vote a straight ticket if you're going to vote for for Levi, because they do it that way. In any event, the thing got all messed up, and people simply couldn't find Morris' name, and he began to get calls late afternoon or early evening by people complaining that they couldn't find him on the ballot. And I don't know, seven or eight o'clock, Morris called me and said, We're dead. And we did. We were we lost to a very non script candidate who then lost in the general and what was judgeship, died of boring,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1451.0,1489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: beaten by the big political machine. So he returned to private practice, to Utah and Udall, and you, you left the. County attorney's office the same time, right? And and you went to Udall, and Udall from there as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1490.0,1505.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: A little bit later, I practiced with Ackerman for a while, and then Morris invited me to join the firm, and I did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1506.0,1514.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what, what led to to that decision?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1515.0,1518.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Morris needed somebody in the firm. Stuart was in Washington, couldn't practice law. Morris needed somebody, and we got along well, and and so,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1519.0,1532.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: so it's just the two of you. Well, initially, actually, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1533.0,1536.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no Stuart was involved in it, but in a minor fashion, because he didn't participate very much. So initially it was, it was Morris and me,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1537.0,1544.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: yeah, did you ever practice with Stu Stewart as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1545.0,1548.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, technically, I was his partner. And when he came back in the summer, times we he would, he would practice law","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1549.0,1554.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in the summer. Oh, so he'd go to Congress during the term, and then come back and recess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1555.0,1559.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: He'd come back. How,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1560.0,1562.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how was it to practice with Morris and Stewart? I mean, how, well, how did they differ in their styles or their approaches, or, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1563.0,1570.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Stewart, by that time, I think, was not very much interested in practicing law, and it didn't turn him on. Morris was just born to it. Morris was a great trial lawyer, and I learned a lot from him. The one thing he couldn't teach anybody else was his self confidence. See, I guess you're born with that. I think it's a Utah trait, but he immensely self confident, and of course, happily had the stuff to back it up with, so that it paid off. He was a wonderful trial lawyer. I've tried, I tried a number of cases with him, and he was something to watch. And it was he was instinctive. He had an ability to talk sense to juries. He had an ability to make things understandable to juries and to make connections with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1571.0,1621.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So it was mostly a trial work that, yes, yeah, was it civil? Primarily, yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1622.0,1626.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not entirely, but primarily we, we tried. We tried a court martial at Fort Huachuca, a marijuana bust back in those days, that's right. Well, the army was the army cracked down because they were beginning to have some difficulty, and so they, they swept up some of these kids from the 36th Army Band. And it was really pretty sad. These were these. Almost all of them were college graduates. They were musicians, and had been college musicians, and most of them were on the way to being teachers, music teachers and other things. And so marijuana conviction at that time was a terrible blow. And so it was an important case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1627.0,1674.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did you get them all? I don't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1675.0,1677.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: want to put it that way. They were acquitted by a court. Quote you,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1678.0,1686.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: at some point in time, you and Mo were were joined by Paul Reese, right, weren't you? How did Paul had clerked","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1687.0,1693.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: for for Levi, for Morris's father, and recommended him very strongly. And so he came down and he joined the firm. Was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1694.0,1703.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he also pretty much trial? Yes, lawyer, yeah. In in 1956 when you were in practice with Mo, he chaired the Arizona volunteers for Stevenson. Did you get involved","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1704.0,1717.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in that? Not very much. I didn't get very much involved in politics with Morris, but on the Stevenson campaign, I do remember mo being the state chairman. And I think I remember only one time meeting Stevenson in Phoenix, when he was there on some sort of a speaking engagement. I went up with Morris.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1718.0,1738.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He in 1960 he published the Arizona law of evidence book. Do you have any idea or remember how he came about to be involved in that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1739.0,1752.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know how he came about, how he came to be involved in it. I'm sure it probably was Morris's idea. He had to see he had incredible energy, and he never was satisfied to do just the mundane work at a stuff of whatever job he had. He always did something beyond that. And so he he taught, part time at the law school that labor law that he Yes. He taught labor law Yeah, and he'd always been fact. When he was a student, he published an article on the law of evidence, I think, at the in the University of Denver Law Review, if I'm not mistaken. And so he had those he had those instincts. And it's a sort of a. In a part of the family tradition, I think to be somewhat scholarly. Were you involved in writing? No, no, I wasn't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1753.0,1807.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: At some point, Judge Joseph Livermore came to co author that with Moe. Do you know how that came about? Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1808.0,1816.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I was responsible. Somehow. I suspected that I won't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1817.0,1819.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: say I was responsible, but I knew that Morris had gotten to be a heavy load, and he needed somebody to work on. And Joe had been my successor in the law school, and was an evidence expert, and I thought it would be a great thing, and so I suggested to Morris that he talked to Joe, and suggested to Joe he talked to Morris, and they got together and did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1820.0,1840.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it, and at some point, Morris quit working on the law of evidence and pretty much turned it over and to live more. Do you know when that happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1841.0,1850.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: No, I don't remember. I don't remember that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1851.0,1855.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Also in 1960 the same year he he published the book. He chaired the the committee for modern courts, which was a bar attempt to reform the court system. Were you involved in that at all? With them,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1856.0,1869.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to some extent, but I don't have much recollection now, what we did, what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1870.0,1873.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were you remember the goals? The goals","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1874.0,1877.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: were a unified court system that is an administratively linked system of courts. Before that time, they had been simply a collection of courts that were sort of linked only in a kind of a common law way. You took an appeal from the Superior Court to the Supreme Court, but there was no administrative control over the lower courts by the Supreme Court. The modern courts amendment was designed to change that. Can I gather it passed? Oh, yeah. The major thing was, was merit selection for the two major counties. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1878.0,1913.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: right. Up until then, they had been all elected. All elected. What is that the primary legacy would you say for the modern court system, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1914.0,1921.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, yes, it is the primary legacy and the most important one. But the administrative structure is also important, because court systems now are so complex and have so many, so many duties other than simply deciding cases, that it's important to have an administrative structure. There's something now called the Administrative Office of the Courts, which didn't exist in the early days, and things would be a shambles without something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1922.0,1953.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You hear, you hear nowadays, about other attempts to to reform the court system. And I'm wondering if, if they're now looking towards simplifying it some","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1954.0,1967.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know any, any real efforts to simplify the court system. See, I don't think that the Arizona court system in particular is, is overly complex. I mean, it is. It is a relatively clean administrative structure. It's a relatively clean judicial structure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1968.0,1986.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And was this the structure that was set in place by the modern courts movement?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1987.0,1990.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, but it builds on what was there before. It was never very complicated system. One of the advantage of the Western advantages that Western states have is that they they were able to build their court systems pretty much on the basis of practical reality and not having to fight through the crusts of of ancient court structures that made no sense. And so they the result was that they starting fairly small and clean. They produced relatively simple, straightforward court structures.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=1991.0,2024.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: One way that the courts are going now is they're increasingly emphasizing dispute resolution,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2025.0,2034.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: other than judicial trust, exactly, settlements","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2035.0,2037.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and all kinds of dispute resolutions. That was something that Moe was very well known for, was resolving disputes between parties in a way that was amiable to all sides. Were you privy to that at all? Do you know what made him particularly successful in that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2038.0,2056.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I know the personal characteristics that made him successful at doing that sort of thing. They were that he would listen to people, that he was a quick study. He understood things very quickly, and understood what people's real interests were, and he was able to deal with people in such a way that they sensed that he respected them and their interests, and that he was straightforward about things, and he would talk common sense to them about what the best resolution would be, that would be best for everybody. And there was this sort of personal. Little agreeableness about him that made people trust him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2057.0,2107.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, around this time, you had an opportunity to teach law at New York University, right law school, that was in 1960","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2108.0,2118.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: 61 I went back there, I made the decision in 60","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2119.0,2121.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How did mo take news of your leaving?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2122.0,2126.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't have much of a recollection. I had been teaching part time at the law school at this university, and enjoyed it, and Douglas was always interested in having his former clerks go into teaching, and he's the one who got the ball rolling by having Deans from schools in the East contact me. And it was, I suppose it was clear to even before that happened, that that teaching was something that that I liked to do, that was probably more my style than being a hired gun. So I don't think Mars was surprised when I said I was going to do that. What? What happened to the firm? Well, I always said that, that as a result of my deciding to go into teaching that my partners had to find federal jobs because Stewart, then was Secretary of the Interior and Morris was going to run for Congress. But the fact is, that's what happened. So you're leaving broke up the campaign. It really didn't but, but it just happened to happen at the same time to work, the same time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2127.0,2201.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1960 I think both Morris and Stewart were involved in the John F Kennedy election campaign, which led to some big events the next year in 1961 when on March 8, Stewart was appointed As Secretary of the Interior and on. On May 2, Morris ran in a special election to succeed Stuart. They, of course, then both went back east to Washington area and you were in New York City. Did you keep in touch? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2202.0,2235.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: to some extent, I had not much contact with Stewart. I do remember we had a good friend in New York who was an American Indian, a woman who had married, I guess, a stockbroker or something. But she somehow we had met her in the village where we lived, in Greenwich Village where we lived, and she was very active in Native American Affairs nationally. And when Stuart came to the Metropolitan Museum for some event of some sort, we had a session with him there. But beyond that, I was in his office two or three times, I suppose, when we went down to to Washington to visit, but we were there to visit Morris and Pat so I had some contact with with Stewart, maintain some contact with with Morris.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2236.0,2287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In the next year, Mo was appointed to the interior Committee, which had him on the interior committee and Stewart as Secretary of the Interior this very broad question, but, but what? What combined effect do you think that the two of them had on environmental law and policy in the course of their careers? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2288.0,2312.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a good historian of that, of that era, particularly, but it's I've always thought that Stuart, after Harold Ickes was probably the best Secretary of Interior we've ever had, and that was Stewart's understanding of the Environment and natural resources that he had a powerful effect on the country and on our policies in that respect. And Morris in the same way, but also but in a different way. Be as a congressman, you have different kind of influence, but his work in the Congress, as he gained seniority and gained more power on that committee. I don't know any congressman who has since, certainly, since that time, has had the kind of impact that Morris had at","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2313.0,2368.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what point when you knew them. I mean, they were both known as avid environmentalists and outdoors people, and yet, until this time, you don't really see that coming into to their respective biographies or histories, at what point did it become evident to you their interest in the environment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2369.0,2393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I think that's a that's an interesting question I hadn't thought about but i think i. It, I think, was sort of natural given their backgrounds in St John's and the country, country life. I don't know much about their contact with with Native Americans, except, of course, their mother Louise was very active and wrote a book with Mississippi, called me and mine, and it's evident that the Udall family was very close to to to the Indian people understood them. And I think particularly with respect to Stewart, who was quite avowedly a liberal Westerner, naturally interested in natural resources, and Morris, though not in quite the same ideological way, but but equally as attuned to those interests. It just, it couldn't be much of anything else,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2394.0,2472.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: sort of a similar question. They, they came from a very conservative Republican background, and both turned into rather Liberal Democrats. What, at what point do you think or what influenced them to go their own ways?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2473.0,2488.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, first see, I'm not, I guess I wouldn't have characterized their background as conservative Republican. There's a there's a certain, there's certainly a wing of the Udall family that's Republican and very conservative. I think it's also true, probably that Levi and maybe Louise, their parents were conservative. I thought Levi was a Democrat. However,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2489.0,2513.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you may be right, actually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2514.0,2516.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: So I think they but the Democrats that they that they came from, and the Democrats of Arizona at that time were by and large liberal, I mean, conservative Democrats. They were mostly Pinto Democrats, as we used to call Morris and Stewart, were bright young guys who were moving out on their own. They were charting their own course. They were going their own way and a part of the and they came. They came to the university as adults anyway, after the Second World War. And there was a, there was a strain of American veterans who were liberal and who had, who were the children of the New Deal. And they were, and they were continuing in that, in that, in that vein, and more particularly, Stuart was, was quite ideologically liberal. Morris was too, in a much more pragmatic and quiet","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2517.0,2576.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: fashion. So, and to some extent, they were products of their time. They were product of their time. I'm going to stop to turn the tape over. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271#t=2577.0,2579.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270271/transcript/78587/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/587/original/azu_ms396-003_side1_a.vtt?1744912941","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/587/original/azu_ms396-003_side1_a.vtt?1744912941"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - azu_ms396-003_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":1498.56,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/272/original/azu_ms396-003_side2_a.mp3?1744847754","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1498.56,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, we're on the air again in 1961 from 1961 to 1965 you were involved in what was called the Udall land syndicate. I'm very curious about that. Could you tell us about that? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1.0,18.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: can't tell you very much. I was sort of along for the ride, and I had a very minor piece in this, but the for we were making money and as lawyers, and had a little bit of extra and Morris and John badger, I guess. And I'm sure there were other people who got the idea that that it wouldn't be a bad thing to do, to buy land for and hold it and then see if it would, as this community grew, if it would appreciate in value. And so that's what we did, land speculators, yeah, we kept that very quiet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=19.0,57.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It hasn't been talked about since I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=58.0,59.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: noticed, sure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=60.0,62.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 1960s was civil rights was a major issue during that time. Were you aware of or was there a role that the Udalls were particularly prominent Stuart","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=63.0,74.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was, yeah, there were. And this was a little, I was a little behind this group. So I don't know that much about but when Morris and Stewart, particularly Stewart, were very much interested, very much involved in civil rights, Stewart in particular, but Morris as well, and I can't remember what called Civic unity, something like that, multiracial groups attempting to deal with questions like school segregation, things like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=75.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I know they were at least I think they were both involved when they were in college, in opening athletics to all races,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=106.0,113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right? Well, the whole thing with respect to racial segregation. I think that was the legacy of the Second World War. I mean, we had fought this war against a nation that espoused sort of master race theory, and we had rejected that, and a lot of bright young, well educated people like Morrison Stewart in the service took that seriously and meant to make it work when they came home.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=114.0,143.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think that might have been the issue, or at least an issue that led them away from Mormonism, which they had been brought up in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=144.0,155.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I'm sure, I'm sure it must have had that effect, though I don't know very much about that. I never, I've never really talked very much to to Morris or Stewart about religion, about their religion, and about their relationship to the church. I knew that that Mrs. Udall was very active and devout, and I'm sure Levi was too. The boys just didn't seem to carry that on and and I think that was it was it was the time they were, they came to they got away from home. They'd been out in the world, away from the grip of the church. They simply moved off into a broader world, and that particular aspect of life didn't retain its holdover","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=156.0,207.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in in 1965 Pat and mor Shuda were divorced. Did you know Pat? Yes, what? How would you describe her?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=208.0,220.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Pat was a very engaging person. She could be the most charming person. She also could also be the toughest person she ever ran into. She was. Pat had an ego about as almost as big as Morris's. She She all. She did not take well to his public life. She didn't take well to adulation directed at Morris. She detested homecoming because it was filled with good old boys that Morris knew when before he knew her, and that didn't work well. So she was, she was very generous, very outgoing. If she if she liked you, there was nothing she wouldn't do for you if she didn't like you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=221.0,268.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: But being a congressman's wife","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=269.0,270.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was not her was not I don't think so. I don't think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=271.0,274.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Um, you, you eventually returned to Tucson in 1966 and became Dean of the Law School here, which you retained for seven years, 77 years. The following year, Mo came back to the university to the Sunday evening forum and gave us. Speech in which he came out against Vietnam, right? You introduced him that night. Did you know that he was going to do this? Yes, he had told you that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=275.0,308.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, he told me what he had in mind. We talked about it. I'm not sure how long before the speech, but sometime before","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=309.0,315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: he came back to do it. Did he ask your advice on","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=316.0,319.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, I don't know that he asked my advice, but we talked about how he was going to do and what he was going to do. One of the things he was very concerned about. Stewart was still in the cabin at that time, and Lyndon Johnson was a pretty touchy person, and so Morris was wanted me to be very sure they had a question and answer. Period after the speech, people in the audience wrote out questions and passed them down the aisle, and they brought them up to the to the stage, and that one of the jobs of the person who was kind of the moderator, I guess, was to sort of pick out the questions and organize them in some kind of logical fashion. And one of the things that we were we planted one question, and it was done deliberately, because Morris wanted to do as much as he could to keep Stewart from paying any price for what Morris was doing. So one of the questions was, have you talk to your brother about this, and does he agree with you? And the answer was no, I have not talked to him, and I have no idea whether he agrees with me or not. I don't think he does.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=320.0,387.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: How do you, in fact, talk to them, to him? Do you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=388.0,390.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: know? I don't have any idea. I he may not have I think he was. He wanted to be very careful not to get steward implicated at all. Now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=391.0,399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you told me a story about your introduction of him being particularly brief. Would you like to well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=400.0,406.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: his wife, Ella, at that time, they'd had a bad experience with a former governor of Arizona. We introduced Morris at some kind of a rally sometime, and took all the speaking time just making the introduction, so that by the time Morris got the microphone, there was very little time left, and the audience was exhausted. And Ella was adamant that we were not to do that, not to have that happen to Morris again. And she kept after me, saying he's got to be brief introduction. And I said, I kept telling her, I understand that I don't get a long introduction, so I'm perfectly aware of what I'm supposed to do, and so when I introduced him, I said, I have the privilege of introducing a person who needs no introduction. Morris Udall and sat down, and Ella was furious,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=407.0,455.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: but she probably never asked that of anyone else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=456.0,457.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well, she didn't do it of me,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=458.0,461.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what do you think the long term effect was of Vietnam on this country? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=462.0,466.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: horrible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=467.0,469.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: In what manner?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=470.0,471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well it, for one thing, it well it, for the first time we had to face, after the fact that we could lose a war, which, in effect, is what we did. And we lost, of all things, to a third rate, Asian country that our assumption was we would just obliterate them. And turned out that we were not as smart as we thought we were, and they were a lot smarter. And it was a war we knew did not know how to deal with, how to fight and and fundamentally we were. It was wrong for us to be there in the first place. It was. It was hopeless and wrong. And so that sobering experience of facing up to the fact that we were not invulnerable. We had won the second world war, but we couldn't win this two bit war in Asia. Complicated by the fact that so many people saw this in terms of communism versus American capitalism, and that bothered people a lot bothers everybody. So getting a more realistic view of ourselves is a very tough thing for us, and we there are lots of myths that we believe about ourselves, and we tell ourselves to say these things over and over, and we believe them, and it turns out some of them weren't true. So that was that was hard for us, and it led to a lot of cynicism and a lot of belief by a lot of people that somebody must be responsible for this. Somebody did this to us. We this wouldn't happen if real Americans had been in charge. And so there's a lot of suspicion and a lot of a lot of animosity toward government. The other thing that that, and perhaps more more lasting, and you couple couple it with, with Richard Nixon's experiences, we learned that our government would lie to us, and that the profound. Defect of that. We got that through the Vietnam War, and we got it through Nixon's presidency and the Watergate stuff, and as we frequently do, we overreacted to that. We over learned the lesson of holding people accountable, and we over learned at the extent that we're very cynical about government, so that we don't believe anything they tell us. And I think that distance between us and our government, and the suspicion the cynicism we have about politics and politicians has had a profound","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=472.0,637.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: effect and not really gone away seeing stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=638.0,640.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, it's not gone away at all. It's not gone away, gone away at all. It took in many respects. It's one good effect has been that we have a more sober view of the world. I hope we don't believe so many Fourth of July speeches anymore, but it also has undermined our respect for the many good things that government can and does do, and many good things that politicians can do, because we don't trust anybody","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=641.0,680.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's right. The year after mo came out against Vietnam, he he made his mark challenging the seniority system. In 1968 he challenged House Speaker John McCormick, and in 1970 he challenged Majority Leader Hale Boggs, he lost in both cases. Did you ever talk to moe about these races?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=681.0,704.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't remember talking to him about the Hale Boggs thing. I do remember talking to him about the John McCormick I remember one story that he told was of the the evening that he decided he should call the speaker and tell him that he was going to challenge him and he'd always had this very easy relationship with John McCormick, and McCormick liked him, and but Mo and Ella got on, she got on extension from her home, I think, and they called the speaker to tell him, the reaction was stunned silence and then frozen, just frozen attitude toward toward it that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=705.0,745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: lasted. Oh, yeah, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=746.0,747.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: think so, yeah. Oh, you don't do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=748.0,749.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that. Yeah. It certainly had not been done to that point. No, so did their relationship ever get back on keel? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=750.0,755.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: don't think so, but I don't I wasn't close, so I don't know, but I don't think so. What?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=756.0,760.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What do you think motivated him to do this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=761.0,766.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, one part knowing that he could do it better. Morris almost always knew that. That's why somebody, I think, on this, on that television program, but the Utah scholars, things they asked was I surprised that he ran for president? It didn't surprise me in the slightest, when Morris had that he had the notion that that and and correctly, that he that he could do it better than than anybody who was running at that time. He had a healthy ego. He had a huge ego. He also had huge abilities. And he was right. He could have done it better. He might have been he might have come to the surface at the wrong time. I think that's probably true, but among those who, who we've seen, he would have been vastly preferable to any of them. I I'm an admirer of Jimmy Carter, but he would have been a better president than Jimmy Carter. He would have been much more open than Carter really was, because Carter had this streak of stubbornness and and I guess, meanness in him that that Morris didn't have. But I uh, I just think Morris thought he could do it better than John McCormick could, and he was probably right. And it's, again, a part of this. I think it was characteristic of Morris when he came back to the university after the war, he and Stuart were on the cutting edge of things. They were pushing things. They were doing things. They were moving things. The worst thing, I think, for Morris could could contemplate was a static situation where nothing was moving, where we weren't trying to do better for new things. And I'm sure that's what Bucha Morris to do this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=767.0,874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well. And when he when he lost both of those challenges, he turned around a few years later and announced that he was running for president from the House of Representatives. So he, I guess, wanted to stay on the cutting edge of things. Did Did he tell you about his plans ahead of time? Then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=875.0,892.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, we were pretty we had different we were in different worlds at that time, I was in academia and he was in politics. Were you. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=893.0,899.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: touch at all so sure. So it didn't surprise you when, when he announced, just based on his character, I'm sure","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=900.0,906.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we had, we had discussions about it now and then, but nothing serious, like sitting down, planning it out, or anything like that. I never participated in anything like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=907.0,916.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How about after he lost the primaries? Did Did you ever have an occasion to sit back with him and share his thoughts on the campaign and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=917.0,927.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, we talked on, but I don't have specific recollections. I remember he heard his stories of the campaign and why things went the way they did, and how tough it was, and how they ran out of money and and everything was done on a shoestring and that sort of thing. Did","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=928.0,946.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you get any sense from that, why he felt that he had lost, or your opinion as to why I think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=947.0,952.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it was resources,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=953.0,956.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and you think he would have been a better president? Yeah. Carter, yes. Do you think he was just a product of his times, and in that sense too? I mean, what if he were to run for president today and had the resources? Do you think he could make a serious a run for it? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=957.0,982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, I think he might have, I think, I think the role that that Clinton has played, sensing that, that a Democrat had to, had to lean back to the center, and that this is a time for centrism. Morris could have done that. Morris was he was very successful in Arizona. And you couldn't run in Arizona and call yourself a liberal. You had to call yourself something else. And he did. And Morris was always able to keep people to the right of him comfortable with him, even though he took some very interesting, challenging positions, but he was able to do it in such a way that that they didn't regard him as a bomb thrower. I don't think he could have done that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=983.0,1034.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He didn't seem to burn bridges behind him either. No, in 1979 he was officially diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. Were you aware by then that there was something wrong? What? What had you concerned? Do you recall","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1035.0,1053.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: just that he, he, he just seemed to be slower, and which wasn't characteristic of Morris, he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1054.0,1064.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in the ADC continued to be really highly productive, passing the Alaska Lands Act and Nuclear Waste Management Act, among a lot of other things. Did it become obvious to you at any point that the Parkinson's was getting in the way of his ability to do his","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1065.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: job. Well, I don't know about doing his job, because I wasn't with him daily in the Congress, but you could tell that more it was beginning to affect Morris very profoundly, and that he was struggling with the medication to keep him on the knife edge between under medication and over medication. And it was pretty clear that that his speech was being affected and his physical abilities were being really slowed down considerably.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1080.0,1111.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you ever have occasion to talk to him about that? Or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1112.0,1115.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no only, only to the extent that we talked about the difficulties that he had in in managing the medications and his health. But I never, I never presumed to talk to Morris about whether it was time to stop or anything like that. That wasn't, that wasn't for me to get into. I didn't. I wasn't with him daily, and he didn't ask my advice about that. In","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1116.0,1142.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 1988 his second wife, Ella Royston Udall, died in what was ruled as a suicide. Did you know Ella? Yes, and can you tell us something about her?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1143.0,1157.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, you know, I don't. We didn't. We didn't know Ella nearly as well as we knew Pat, because she was a part of his life in Washington, not it, not in Arizona. I thought she was a great deal more political. She obviously was more political at Pat, and she, she was a part of his political life, and she seemed that seemed to be to sort of characterize their relationship, was their common interest in politics. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1158.0,1188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: she was, she was better suited to being a congressman's wife.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1189.0,1192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I suppose she","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1193.0,1194.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was, yeah, let me ask you just a couple of general. Questions, compare and contrast. Stewart and Morris, what were their greatest, greatest strengths and weaknesses? I feel like I'm giving a law school exam.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1195.0,1212.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, from my observations, Stuart was more ideological, more philosophical, more comfortable with the life of the mind. Stewart, for example, became he and Lee became very enamored of Robert Frost and saw themselves really as as a part of the of the literate society. You know, Morris, on the other hand, was much more action oriented, much more pragmatic. I didn't say that Morris was any less intelligent or intellectual, and Stewart, he simply didn't see himself as an intellectual. He saw himself as a when they were in in practice, as a practicing lawyer. Stewart had a, had a, as one of his aides once said, a very rich inner life. Uh, that. And I think, I think in political terms, as it turned out, though they didn't, it didn't look that way to begin, but I think Morris was a much better, much more skillful political person than Stuart. Had better judgment, had more restraint, had had a better sense of where things were going. Stuart could float off now he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1213.0,1306.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: never after he he left Washington as Secretary of Interior. He never again ran for public office. Why do you think that was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1307.0,1318.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I think Stewart had stepped out of the realm at that when he became Secretary of Interior, when he was such a good secretary of interior, and that was his calling, I thought. And he was good at that sort of thing, but he, by that time, his his political connections to the to the working party, I think, had had evaporated, eroded, and his base, he no longer had a local base. And you have to have a local base to run for thing, unless you were Kennedy and can move to New York and run for the Senate. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1319.0,1358.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: do you think about the career that he did follow from that point, I guess he couldn't go back and be interior secretary. There's only one of those jobs,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1359.0,1366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, and he, and he wouldn't sell himself as a lobbyist, for which I have always admired Stuart greatly. For that he didn't. He just didn't sell himself. Nobody bought Stuart, and as a result, I think it's been hard for Stewart to find a solid working base,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1367.0,1392.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and yet he's continued to practice law, and in some fairly cutting edge","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1393.0,1396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: uranium cases. He was involved in those, yeah, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1397.0,1401.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Native American claims cases. One more question. Over the years, how did you if you did see no change,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1402.0,1419.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I just don't grow he was a he was a very effective, very active, small state lawyer, until he went to Congress, and he made the transition very easily, as a matter of fact, from this, from the small from the bush leagues to the big time, which I which I always thought was because Morris just had that kind of ability. He was a big time person, and yet he didn't lose his his aura of being a small state lawyer, small state politician, but he moved into the big time, and people took him and respected him for his ability. And so I think he just he grew in sophistication and ability to deal with all sorts of different people. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1420.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: in some sense, I don't think Morris changed a lot, but that was because he was pretty something when he was when he was practicing law in Tucson. That","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1481.0,1490.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: sounds like a good note to end it with. Thank you very much for your participation. We appreciate it. Thank.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272#t=1491.0,1493.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146493/file/270272/transcript/78588/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/588/original/azu_ms396-003_side2_a.vtt?1744912969","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/588/original/azu_ms396-003_side2_a.vtt?1744912969"}]}]}]}