{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/4f1mg7hc8m/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["David Burr Udall"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Southern Arizona History Connection, Incorporated Oral Histories"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Udall, David Burr (Interviewee)","Head, Linda (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2024-08-13 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Tucson"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eA video oral history interview conducted at the law office of Burr Udall, Tucson, Arizona.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":[".mp4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eCopyright held by University of Arizona Libraries. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS839.006 (UID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["St. Johns, AZ","David King Udall","Morris Udall","Stewart Udall","Levi S. Udall-Chief Justice Arizona Supreme Court","Elma Udall","Law Practice-Arizona in 50s, 60s \u0026amp; 70s","Snowflake, AZ","Henry D. Ross-Arizona Supreme Court Justice","Joseph H. 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Udall. Burr Udall, I've never been known as David. I was born January, 20, 1925, nine. I'm 95 years old. I was born in St John's Arizona, up in northeastern Arizona. Well, okay, we came to Arizona in 1880 Brigham Young sent my grandfather, was named David King Udall to St John's. He came with 50 families. He was in charge all of him. He was 29 years old, and they established it. And then slow, but sure, it grew. It's St John's is about 5600 feet. It's high, it's cold, it's miserable, one of the ugliest towns you'll ever see, there's nothing good about St John's. They there's no street lights, maybe eight stop signs. The main street is paved. That's it. St John's, when the Mormons founded all these little places in Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, and they tried to send four people, a blacksmith, a carpenter, a teacher and a midwife, and they figured they had it covered. There's six of us. I'm number six. All of us were born in the front room of the house, and we were delivered by a midwife. I The Mormons found in Las Vegas, Nevada, I don't know if you know that, but lots of little towns, and they were very industrious and got things done. Let me tell you what we didn't have in St John's. It was 1400 people, basically 60% Mormon, 60% 40% Hispanic. They had two churches, a Mormon church and a Catholic church. We had no medical, no doctors, no nothing. The nearest medical was 90 miles away, Gallup, New Mexico, our house, just to give you a feel for what was up there, and it's all changed, but we had no central heating or cooling. We did not have a hot water heater. We did not have a refrigerator. We had a bathtub, and we had a big stove that you'd put a number three tub and fill it up with water and fill up the tub. All the women bathed, you let it out, did it over again. All the men bathed. Every Saturday. We bathed whether we needed it or not, and if you didn't, then next Saturday you hopefully got to bathe again. Or if you didn't, you did it three weeks from then. I uh, what else? When I was a kid, I think I was in a third or fourth grade, and my mother's uncle was the county treasurer, and they got him with his hand in the cookie jar, and my dad was the judge, and he didn't believe in that. And he'd come home, and he'd walk in the house, and he'd say to mom, Louise, what's for supper? Mom would say, if you're going to send my uncle to jail, you can fix your own supper. And he I don't remember my dad fixing any supper. He couldn't cook, Neither could I, but he gave him one to two years in the state prison years later, meaning when I was old enough got out of law school, I said to my father, why in the hell didn't you bring in another judge the Senate make your relationship with mom a lot better. And he said, Well, it was the middle of the Depression. The county could not afford to spend the money to bring up a judge just to sentence him. And what difference did it make? The two closest judges were my brothers. So. It. So we had St John's pretty well surrounded when I was seven, my like I said, there were six of us, and I'm number six, the My oldest brother, Stuart and Morris, decided I was big enough now to do the chores so they could sleep in. So here's what I did every day of my life till we left St John's. I got up in the morning. We had a big cast iron stove. Weighs about 600 pounds. How they got them across the prairies beyond me, it had 10 or 12 burners, and I don't remember the fire ever, ever going out. There were always embers. So the first thing I did when I got up in the morning was get wood in there. So when mom got up, she could cook breakfast. Then I went down. I milked two cows, fed them, brought the milk back the house and put it in the place where we kept milk, slapped the hog, and then I chopped enough wood to keep the fire going till five o'clock at night, when I did it all over again. And it wasn't I wasn't unique. Every boy in St John's did that ever every day, that for a while, not true. They had one restaurant that was open from 11 in the morning to one in the afternoon to serve the kids going to high school. High school, when I was there was 120 students my graduating class was 23 dad, oh, that's what a dad never went to law school. He took law by correspondence and read it with one of the lawyers up there who became a superior court judge, and then dad ran against him and beat him and became the judge. Then later in 1946 dad ran for the Supreme Court statewide. Back then, now you get appointed and got elected, and so he moved. Mom and dad moved to Phoenix. My age was perfect. I was World War Two. Ended in 1945 I got out of high school in 1946 so I never had to put up with getting shot at. But the people the Army and the Navy and whatever they wanted people like me to go in the service so the people that fought the war could come home. So I did. I enlisted and went and I knew I could researched it. I was going to get all the benefits the people that fought the war got. I got the GI Bill, the whole eight yards, and I enlisted in the Army, and they sent me to the Philippines for two years. Then when I came home, St John's, we didn't live there. Mom and Dad had moved to Phoenix, so when I got out, I came straight to Phoenix, and that was Oh early December when I got out. And then the middle of January of 19, oh boy, 48 it would have been I came to Tucson to go to school and back then, and I think it's still true, if you graduated from high school in St John in Arizona, they had to admit you as a student. So I showed up here when I got to Tucson. It was January. Tucson was about 50,000 the paving on Broadway and Speedway stopped at Tucson Boulevard. They were dirt roads after that, I think the U of A was maybe 4000 you pretty much knew everybody, and I need to go back to St John's for a second. When I was 11, dad took me to Clifton he was holding in court, and we got up the we got there late. We got up in the morning and went in, and I looked around the bathroom, and I came out, he was shaving, and I said, Come with me for a minute. I went out and I said, What's that? He said, That's a shower. That's first time ever saw a shower. I was 11 years old, so when I got to the U of A I. I lived in a dorm the first semester, and then Morrison Stewart and me had a job at the infirmary, at the U of A you were the janitor, the night watchman. You got the food, you wash dishes, you did everything. It's a great job. You got room and board, and I did that for five and a half years, and back, I was going to be an engineer. I flunked out of that college, and I didn't do real well, and I was going to get a degree in accounting, and my I went to Phoenix, and my dad said to me, how do you like it? And I said, I hate it. I cannot imagine doing this all my life. And he said, Why don't you go to law school? I said, Every damn lawyer, you don't I know as a lawyer, I'm not going to law school. And I came back to the U of A that 1952 around Labor Day, and back then, the U of A didn't pre register or anything. Day one you registered and got your classes, and the law school did not require anything except three years undergraduate. So three days before class started, I walked over to law school and said the Dean's secretary, I'd kind of like go to law school. And she said, give me $35 and you're in. So I didn't come out with a lot of student debt. I Yeah. So because of some health problem I had, I couldn't work, so I went to summer school, and I got out of law school in two and a half years. And the name of the firm was McCarty and Chandler, and they hired me straight out of law school. And this law firm started March 119, 52 I came. March I mean, yeah, I came. February 27 1954","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3195/collection_resources/144329/file/266752#t=6.0,736.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3195/collection_resources/144329/file/266752/transcript/77070/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: they paid me $250 a month. I wasn't worth it, but that's what they paid me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3195/collection_resources/144329/file/266752#t=737.0,743.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3195/collection_resources/144329/file/266752/transcript/77070/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And probably early June, my wife graduated and got a degree in social work, and she went to work for the juvenile court as a probation officer. So we had a long courtship. We started in June, got married in January, and we set out, my wife was something. She was a giver, she wasn't a taker, and she was a doer. And everybody says to me, you know we well, we set out to have six kids. We had two, and the good Lord said, That's all you're entitled to have. And so we lived with what we got. They everybody says to me, How come you never run for office? Your family? Everybody ran for office. Well, we'd been married seven or eight years, I think, and I came home one day and I said, Alice, I think I'm going to run. And she put her hand up. I stopped, and she said, if you're going to run for public office, you need to get another wife. So I thought that out and stayed didn't Alice and I were married 65 years. She died in four years ago, when I started to practice law in Tucson, Arizona, there probably 120 lawyers, maybe 100 not that there weren't that many. There were three superior court judges, one federal judge, no public defender, no court commissioners, anything like that, and everything was in the old domed courthouse, including the jail. The jail was up on the second floor. So the first two cases I tried. I tried with Tom Chandler, who hired me their plaintiff's cases. Then he said, Okay, you know how? So I tried four or five cases by myself, and because there was no public defender, every Thursday, Friday, usually Friday, you'd get a phone call from one of the judges secretaries saying the judge would like. Here Monday morning at nine o'clock, which meant you were going to get a criminal appointment, and they were pro bono. You didn't get paid anything. And I'm, I think, a five month lawyer, and I get the phone call and I show up, and the judge says, Mr. Udall, stand up. And the clerk says, state Arizona versus first degree murder, Mr. Udall, you're appointed defending now, in this day and age, everybody to have a heart attack, not back then, and that was in August, and we tried the case in October, three months this day and age, it takes three to five years to get to trial, and they convicted him a manslaughter, which is they weren't asking for the death penalty, which I think he was probably guilty of. And two months later, I get a phone call from the federal judge appointed me to do another first degree murder case in federal court, and I tried it, and they convicted him a manslaughter. My claim to fame is I have tried a case in every county in this state. Most people can't tell you how many counties there are, let alone where they are, but I have tried over 400 jury trials, so let me bore you with a couple of cases that I enjoyed talking about with me, and I'm going to go back to St John's for a second. Dad was born in St John's, just like I was. I was born on his birthday, and when he was a kid in St John's, the high school was two years. So if you want to go further, you went to Stafford Thatcher, Graham County, and you got on the horse. There were roads, and rode down, took about five days, and spent from Labor Day to Memorial Day in Stafford or Thatcher, that was, I think Dad was attending high school, and that's where he met My mother, and they got married down there. So I Well, I'm trying a case in Graham County, where mom was from and where George iron the jury. And I say, Okay, ladies and gentlemen, am I related to any of you? And two hands go up, and I think, oh boy. And I said, the first woman, yes, ma'am, How are we related? And she said, I'm your aunt. She said, I'm Senior since you were nine years old. I wouldn't expect you to remember me. Second Lady was a dude. She got up and stood up and pointed at me and said, We're first cousins, and we met five months ago, and you better remember it well, I didn't, but I said, Of course I remember it, but I'm asking these questions for the other lawyers so he'll know what's going on in small counties they have the pictures of past judges in the courtroom, not out in the hall, and I'm trying a case in St John's, which is Apache County, and dad was the judge there, and his picture is in the courtroom, and we're starting the trial, and the other lawyer said to the judge, we have a motion take up. And the judge said, Okay, Bill, what the hell's your motion? He said, We want you to rule that Udall can't stand under his father's picture. I should have got that transcribed, but I didn't. And the judge looked at him and he said, Bill, all these people in St John's nowhere is Levi's kid. Don't worry about it. So that's kind of my story in practicing law, trying cases is hard work, and back in my era, we didn't, I mean, a four day trial was kind of a long trial, but we didn't over kill the. By doing a lot of depositions, a lot of discovery. I mean, this day and age, everybody thought, well, I'm going to file a motion for sanctions. I never, ever heard of a motion for sanctions the first 30 year sized proximal it didn't happen. You just said to the other lawyer, hey, we got to work this out. And he'd say, Fine, we do the other thing I didn't mention when I started to practice, there were four women lawyers in Pima County, Rose silver, Mary, Ann, Richie, Joanne, Deimos and Frances, and I'm sorry I've never remembered her last name, and she was the Civil attorney for the county attorney. So now you know, when I'm at law school, there were three girls in my class, and that's the first class they ever had that had more than one woman in the class. All three of them turned out to be judges. They all did very, very well. And when I went to law school, because of the fact you didn't take any tests, like I told you, you just showed up and paid your money, they had seven teachers, professors, I guess is the better word. And they would look at you at the first class. Every one of them would say the same thing, look at the person you're sitting next to, because at the end of this semester, one of you isn't going to be here. And they flunked half of us, a little over half they flunked. So it was a different world. And we, first class was 740 the last class was 1230 that was it. Nothing in the afternoon, nothing at night. Now they're going 24 hours a day. They got classes going in law schools. Grandpa died, I think I was seven, and I knew him, and I knew his wife. He was a polygamist. He had a wife in St John's and a wife in snowflake, and he had 16 children, and the wife in snowflake, who was the second wife, died first, and he brought all those children to St John's, and they were raised there. My mother's side of the family is the most interesting mom's maiden name was Lee, and one of my great grandfathers. Her grandfather was a guy named Jacob Hamlin, who was always known as Jacob. He was never known as anything, but that he was a mountain man, and he, for instance, you stayed north of the Grand Canyon. You stay at Jacobs Lake. That's him. He had, he lived in St George, Utah. He had four wives, 24 children. Mom's other grandfather, my great grandfather, was a guy named John D Lee, as in Lee's Ferry on the Colorado River. He's the guy who started that and get ready. John D Lee had 19 wives and 65 children. 58 of them were boys, if you think about that for a second, and you get up every morning and say, I got to feed 85 people today, you might just get on the horse and keep going, but, but he didn't. And the other thing I always tell about me was in mom's family, dad's family, everybody and his sister was named David, and that's my first name. My dad had a rancher friend named burr Porter. That's where the burr comes from, and he'd left town before. I never met him. I never knew him at all. In this day and age, you get a gift card. I got a cow and a calf for being named after him. I got livestock. So I don't know St John's, you know is like I said, It's the ugliest town you'll ever see, and we were segregated. We didn't the Mexican kids and the Mormon kids went to separate grade schools, and we all went same high school. The reason wasn't the town, it was the churches you. Mormons wanted to get the kids, when they got out of the school, and teach them the Mormon religion. The Hispanics wanted to get them into the Catholic thing, to teach them Catholicism. And we, I mean, there was never any big problem up there with the races or anything. But when Brown versus Board of Education came out, one of the first people they were looking at was Apache County, and so they they got it desegregated right away. It's a different world. They I know one of the teachers in high school was a guy named, oh, I'm drawing him back. He'll come to me in a second. And if a boy got out of hand in school, they would turn school out, and he would wrestle that kid on the front lawn and just tear him up one side and down the other and let him go. We had one bar in St John's the town drunk was a Mormon, which shouldn't surprise you, and he had the best nickname of anybody ever knew. He was known as lantern because he was always lit and Stewart. When Stewart was 16, he ran him for Constable, ran his campaign, raised money, and he got beat by 12 votes. But Stewart's campaign was, if he had a full time job, he'd quit drinking. That didn't work. They didn't we did insurance defense work, and whatever the insurance company sent in, that's what you did. I mean, you had a car accident, you got sued. You're my client, and that would last maybe a year and get done. Probably the most famous person I ever met as a trial lawyer was Jonas salt, the guy who developed the vaccine for polio. And I tried a polio case here, and he came and testified. And very interesting guy. He's about five foot eight. He was smarter than hell, obviously. And it was interesting, you know, coming back to St John's for a second, you ask about things that happened, and not much happened there. The one thing I remember was, well, and I meant to say this before is we, everybody took care of everybody. The Mormons are very strong in education and very strong on families and anybody had a problem, you took care of it. We had the power came on at seven in the morning. I went off at eight o'clock at night. And if you and my family was big in reading after eight o'clock, you either had a lantern or a candle, a candle to read by the telephone system was eight in the morning to seven in the evening, and it was somebody always said, the Smithsonian should have taken this thing. We had a lady called Central and she sat on the main street looking at and you know you would call, and when you called, she knew who was calling, because our number at home was 40 dad's number at the courthouse was 41 and you'd call, and you'd say, I need to talk to John. And she'd say, he just drove by. I think he's going to the drug store. I'll give you the drugstore. So you did all that. The one bad thing that happened, and again, I think I was 10 or 11 years old in St John's, a butane truck was parked, and one of the two gas not gas stations, car dealerships, and it caught on fire, and we didn't have a fire department, anything like that. And the back of it, that circle, blew off and flew across the street. Eat and killed the sheriff. That was a big deal back then, because you had to get a new sheriff. You had, you had to start all over again. It was just a different kettle of fish up there, because there was, you know, my mom made black bread. She put molasses in it. That's about all I can tell you. And it was great. It's, she taught my sisters, my wife, how to do it. It's, it's great stuff that bread they i Yeah, so what else St John's always sticks in my brain, because, you know, that's where I all my background and who I am came from being there. It was I was I was an adult, by the time I was 13 when World War Two came, every buddy over 35 left and went in the service and St John's our one crop was alfalfa. Hey, and you bailed it and took it to Gallup, and they sold it to the Navajos. But the bale hay back then, there was one person you needed, and that was the tire. You had to tie the wires to keep the bales together. I was the only one in St John's who could tie so I was very, very important. They I had a pickup at 13 and drove around and picked up my crew, and we went out and did it, but St John's went to communism as the only way we could do it. You were a water you were a raker, you were a mower, you were a bait or whatever it took you did, and you do ranch one, farm two, whatever, and get it done. So it was just, I think when I was bailing hay, I got paid 20 cents a day. Maybe it was 15, I don't remember, and it was 10 hour days, and it was hard work. It was you had to be able to do it, do it quickly and do it properly, to get it done. When I went to grade school, high school, they were big in teaching you Arizona history, Arizona geography. And I don't know as you know this, but in 1930 I think it was probably maybe 1931 they built the Coronavirus Trail, which comes from hannigan's minnow in northeastern Arizona, in the Clifton marincy. Until then, the only way you could get from Northern Arizona to southern Arizona was go to Prescott and go down Yarnell hill into Wickenburg. Then in 1937 they built the road between sholo and globe, and now you had another way to get there. But I, you know, I was talking about dad going to Thatcher for high school, there was no road. You just, you worked your way down and figured out how to do it, and I'm sorry. Brother Sherwood is the guy's name who wrestled the people he was. I don't know why I forgot his name. I remember, you know, a couple of things. I should have been in church, but I wasn't, and we lived our house, which still there was a block from the high school and a block from the Mormon church, and it was just vacant land between those places, And dad was running for the Supreme Court, and one Sunday, we had a basketball court in front of our house, and I'm outside playing basketball when I should have been in church, and here comes a highway patrol car and stops and I'm thinking, I haven't done anything. So I go over to the patrolman, and I said, Why are you? No, he said, first he said, Does Levi, you don't live here? And I said, Yes, he lives here. Is he home? No, he's in church. He'll be here in about 10 minutes. He. And he said, I have the governor, and he wants to see him. And I said, Okay, come on in the house. Well, they were going to the governor was a guy named Sid Osborne, and he was, he had polio. He was in a wheelchair. So 10 minutes later, here come mom and dad walking across the vacant land, looking at that patrol car and looking at me, because they figure I've done something. So I hustled over there to say I haven't done anything, but it's the governor, and he's here to see dad, and so we get there, and I honestly don't remember. I think the highway patrolman just picked him up and carried him in the house, because we didn't have any way to get a wheelchair inside the house. And mom made lunch, and we visited for a while. And finally, Dad says, Why are you here, Governor? And he said, Well, Judge Ross, who was on the Arizona Supreme Court, died three days ago, and you won't learn about it for another two days, because it took five days for us to get mail. It just was forever. And when I ran for governor, I told Joe Morgan, my campaign manager, was a lawyer in Prescott, that if there was an opening on the court, I would appoint him. And I think you're the best candidate, but I politically have done it. And Dad said Governor, when you make a commitment, you got to keep it appointed, but do me a favor. And he said, sure. He said, tell him, tell him, I'm going to run against him. I'm going to beat him. And he did. That's how dad got to the Supreme Court. It was just a different world up there. The dad. What dad did was, you know, back then, like I said, I think Pima County had two judges, and Dad went on the bench in 1930 the year after I was born, every and I think Maricopa County had four, and every other county had one, and dad wrote them all a letter, I'm sure, because our phone system wasn't that great, and said, if you have a hot potato, If you've got something that politically is bad for you family. You know, if you're in Bisbee and you're against Phelps dodge, you don't have to rule against them. And they're going to assign the case to me, and I'll come down and I'll come and try it so you don't take any heat. I'll take all the heat, there was a case, and I don't remember. This was probably late 30s, early 40s. That's called a train limit case, and the Arizona legislature passed a bill that said any train that came into Arizona could not have more than 18 cars, so they had to break it down. Because, you know, I don't know if you ever look at a train, but they're 5060, cars, and it was a lot to help the railroad people get more work. And and the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe sudo saying it's unconstitutional, and it was a hot ticket in Tucson because they were big in railroads. And so they asked dad, and he tried the case here for six months, he would leave St John's Sunday about five o'clock. It's about a four and a half hour drive, get here, try the case, leave here Friday night at five and drive back St John's to take care of his church work and see his family, and he spent there were no air conditioning in the courthouse. There was no nothing. And they brought in a box car full of exhibits and parked it right outside the Congress Hotel, where that is and he sat in that box store by himself with no heat in the middle of August for 10 days, reading those exhibits, pretty unreal. And finally, he ruled that the statute was unconstitutional and the. Arizona Supreme Court reversed him, and the US Supreme Court affirmed him. So he was always proud of that, but probably the most important case, the one dad, was the proudest man. When he got on the Arizona Supreme Court, he'd been there, I think, a year and a half, and he wrote the opinion that let Indians vote. And if you ever ask him the most important case he ever handled, he would tell you that was the one. Oh, I was going to mention Morris for a minute. When he was about seven, he was holding a piece of string, and his best friend cut up and stuck the knife in his eye. And like I said, we had no medical care. Mom took the knife out and they didn't. My folks didn't do a damn thing. And three days later, he started grousing. He couldn't see out of the eye. So they took him to Phoenix, and they it was infected, and they took it out, and they gave him glass eyes. And mom found some place in Denver, and they'd sent a case about this long with 24 eyes in it in the mail, and it was a family project. You sat him down at the kitchen table, put the eye in your mouth to get a wet and then stuck it in the socket to see if it fit. You didn't care if it matched color, or if it looked this way or that. Did it fit the socket. About every four months, he'd break them and we'd do it all over again. Towards the end of World War Two, the army figured out four F's, Marci, sore F, for that reason, considered a desk, and the guy said, in the desk, go ahead and get killed like everybody else. So they took him in, and they made him plastic eyes, so when he dropped one, it didn't break. They made him a blood shot eye. So when the good eye was blood shot, the bad eye was blood shot. Morris the fight, the fact they only had one. I was so young when he lost, that the depth perception was never a problem. I mean, he, he got a pilot's license. He could fly. He one of my old stories, he he had a big game. He played basketball here, and his one claim to fame that nobody ever mentions, he's the first university of Arizona basketball player to ever play pro basketball. I and it was back. They didn't have a draft back then. It was the Denver Nuggets got him. But when he was playing here, he had a big game in New Mexico, and Arizona was winning big, and with two or three minutes to go, they took out the starters and put in the subs, and he sat down, and one of the reporters in the Albuquerque paper tapped him on the shoulder, and he said, You don't nobody with one eye can shoot the ball that well. And he took it out and handed it to him. Guy damn near had a heart attack, but when the game's over, the guys leaving with Morris's eye and Mars has chased him down the hall. Wait, wait, I need my eye back. My basketball story about me saying in St John's Thanksgiving, they had a basketball game the town versus the lees. The mom was the lead and Stewart is a starting guard on the University of Arizona basketball team. I'm a senior in high school, and he came home for Thanksgiving, and I said to him, you play for the Lees and I'll play for the town, and you guard me, and I'll guard you, and we'll find out which one I was the best I'm being a smart high school kid. So he scored four, and I scored 24 and I never let him forget it. And his answer was always I wasn't trying. It was just the big brother taking care of the little brother. So, no, well, you know, I, I have a number of complaints about the courts. Now, I told you, discovery is what's given the lawyers a bad name. And I. The other thing that just drives me, why? When I started for a number of years, 20 at least, if you went to the courthouse for whatever reason, whether you're in trial or file a motion or whatever, and you always stop to see all the judges, how are you? How's the wife, how's the kids, how's the dog. How are things going in this day and age? You can't talk to a judge. You can't get in the court, because I learned when they sent them to judges school. Now they say, Do not ever be alone with a lawyer period, because everybody's going to think you're prejudiced. Well, they're not. So one of my old stories is this, how you get to see a judge in this day and age, Stan Feldman, who I think you've interviewed, but was on the Arizona Supreme Court. And a good lawyer, a good friend of mine, we tried a bunch of case against each other. He's trying a case, and he does what every lawyer does before they go to argue. He stops to urinate, and he can't get the zipper. The zipper gets stuck. And bailiff comes and said, the judge wants you. What are you doing? He said, The zipper is stuck. Bailiff leaves, come back. Says, The judge wants C in chambers. So he wraps his coat around him and goes in. And the judge was Alice Truman, and she said, Take off your pants. And he said, What? And she said, Well, you're wearing shorts, aren't you? And he said, Yeah. He said, she said, I've seen men with shorts. Take off your pants and I'll fix the zipper. So that's how you get to see a judge. And she fixed it. When I started, we did, we didn't do a lot of discovery. If you got a criminal appointment, you went to the county attorney and they said, Here's the file. Read it, the whole thing when you're through. If there's somebody you want us to interview or somebody you need to talk to us, let us know with there was no hiding the ball or anything about that. And then as time went on, it became more of don't tell anybody. And then they changed all the rules. So now you have to tell them. But people, I mean, they take 20 depositions in a case, in my view, that they could live with, taken two. And so litigation has become very, very expensive. If you don't have a lot of money, you can't hire a lawyer anymore. And that was never true. I mean, when I started, you didn't say, I'm a divorce lawyer, I'm a criminal lawyer, I'm a transactional lawyer. You said I'm a lawyer, and whatever came in the door you did. I mean, I think I was six months lawyer, and I'd had a loved bankruptcy, a divorce, whatever was there. And if people didn't have money, you just said, Fine, I'll do it for free, you know. And if you can get money down the road, Fine, let me know. 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