{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/4746q1v70n/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Tom Udall"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 4, tape 8"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Steere, Peter (interviewer)","Udall, Tom (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1996-10-25"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New Mexico--Santa Fe (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Tom Udall conducted by Peter Steele. Tom is the son of Stewart Udall. Tom discusses growing up moving back and forth between Arizona and Washington, D.C. while Stewart was in government. He discusses his life and work as a lawyer and in government, and working on Mo's Presidential campaign. Tom also discusses the Navajo Uranium Miner and the Downwinders case, and his assistance with research for the cases."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.062 (uid)","MS396.063 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Tom Udall conducted by Peter Steele. Tom is the son of Stewart Udall. Tom discusses growing up moving back and forth between Arizona and Washington, D.C. while Stewart was in government. He discusses his life and work as a lawyer and in government, and working on Mo's Presidential campaign. Tom also discusses the Navajo Uranium Miner and the Downwinders case, and his assistance with research for the cases."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - azu_ms396-062_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2734.536,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/361/original/azu_ms396-062_side1_a.mp3?1744848018","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2734.536,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mars. Udall, oral history. Tape number seven, Peter steer is interviewing Tom Udall in his home in Santa Fe Tom, I wanted to start by asking you just a few questions in terms of your background and career. You're not obviously as well known on a national level as your dad and and Mars were, and for people who will be using these tapes down the road, it would help us get a little bit of background. You were born in Tucson, born","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1.0,34.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: in Tucson, Arizona, may 18, 1948,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=35.0,39.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and Tom, did you obviously grew up in Tucson for a while. I assume at some point, when your dad went to Congress, that the family moved to Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=40.0,49.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Actually, what we did is up until the sixth grade. I lived full time in Tucson, and then in 1954 when four, when, when my father was elected to Congress. Congress was basically from 54 to 60, which is the time period that dad was in. The Congress was only in Session Six months a year. And so they came in in January and they let out in June. So for the first seven years of my schooling, I spent the first semester of school in Arizona, and then the second semester in Virginia. We drive back Christmas, and then we come back home in June, and we went back and forth like that, six months in each place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=50.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So you would basically be in one school for six months and then another school when you came back. And this would be through 1960","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=106.0,113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that would be through through 1960 and then dad was sworn in in 1961 election was November 60, and then he was sworn in six sworn in 61 and then I came back then. And then eighth grade, which was the next year, was my first full year of school in one school, and and then I spent High School back there. And when he was he was in the cabin Iceman High School in McLean, Virginia,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=114.0,143.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: McLean high and so you finished high school back there, then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=144.0,146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: finished high school back there, and then came out to Prescott College in Prescott, Arizona, in 1966","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=147.0,156.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and that would have been in the early years when Prescott was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=157.0,158.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was in the charter class at Prescott College, which was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=159.0,162.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: an alternative at its time, was an alternative educational experience. Can Can I'm a little familiar with some of the things that Prescott college was doing back then. Tom, can you talk a little bit about your educational experiences at Prescott and how that influenced you? It was not the same as if you've gone to the University of Arizona or Arizona or Arizona State University at the time, because their whole teaching methods were somewhat different. The whole program was different. The","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=163.0,186.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: idea of Prescott college came out of a Ford Foundation study, and the study focused on the issue of what was wrong with the liberal arts, and the conclusion that the Ford Foundation study came to is that with regard to the liberal arts, we were putting things in smaller and smaller boxes, and there was no interdisciplinary study going on where You were having teaching across disciplines and having professors from different disciplines, team teach, and those kinds of things. And so really what Prescott the aim of Prescott college was to try to teach in an interdisciplinary fashion, to bring people together, and and and the faculty and the students in the administration were all supposed to be living in a learning community. The idea wasn't that that they just come and teach classes, that you they were there and available to you at all hours, and that this would be a true exchange and a true learning experience. So the college was organized in a way where, instead of English, 101, and those kinds of compartments in traditional liberal liberal arts, they were organized in very broad global centers. And there was a center for man and anthropology, a center for the sciences, Center for the Humanities, and then an overarching center called the Center for civilization, and that would unify all of these centers. And so the attempt was always to make it interdisciplinary, and many of the courses that we took were team taught, where you'd have a. History professor and a scientist both in the same classroom trying to grapple with scientific issues and history issues at the same time. So it was, it was I, it I was in the charter class. There were just 75 students, about, I think, 21 PhD faculty members and administrators, and we were on this square mile of campus outside of Prescott, Arizona,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=187.0,327.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, there was some emphasis in the curriculum. There one environmental education and environmental issues that not correct the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=328.0,337.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it's more recently, it's taken even a greater emphasis in that area, but, but one of the thoughts of the early founders of Preston College, Dr Ronald Mayer, who was the head of the college, was to use this outdoor laboratory. And so we had, we had an extensive geology program. And one of the the thoughts was, is that you would use the setting you were in, for example, what could be greater for a student than to float down the Grand Canyon and study geology? And there was an actual field trip part of the geology courses at Prescott College, where they would get on a raft and float down for 10 days and look at all the various geologic structures and study it from that perspective, while also studying it in the in the classroom. So it was, it was a it was the other part. It was very different in an end, it the emphasis was in using the out of doors. The other way we use the out of doors was in terms of the orientation for the college Dr Nair and after the, I think it was the first year, the second year, decided on having a outdoor Action Program. And he brought down the the he hired Outward Bound The first year. And the theory was, is that when you came into the college, instead of a traditional one day orientation, you would have a three week orientation in the wilderness, where you would go out into the wilderness with a group of administrators, faculty and the new students. And and eventually I was one of the instructors, and so I in the courses that occurred later on. But our idea was to have instructors that were actually Prescott college students to lead these groups. You'd go kayaking, sailing, mountain climbing, and do all of these things while you were learning about what the college was about. And, there was an honor code at the college, and part of the orientation was for everyone to pass on what the Honor Code was all about and and basically what the approach of the college was. And so we use the out of doors as that that setting for the orientation. And they did that every year that I was there, I think in the second year on and I think it was maybe the third or fourth year where I then became an instructor, after working in out of bound and led one of the courses.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=338.0,487.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, when you were growing up, did you have an opportunity to spend much time with your your grandfather, Levi, and your grandmother, Louise and and if so, can you talk a little bit about their influence on on you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=488.0,502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I, I didn't have that much, that much time spent with with Levi and Louise, and I think that was probably more than anything due to our separation in terms of distance. We I was born in Tucson and and they were living, I think, in Phoenix at the time. And then we moved east in in 1961 completely. And then I think my my grandfather, actually died before dad. I don't know the exact date, but I think he died before dad was sworn into the cabin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=503.0,541.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Levi did 1960 Yeah, 1960","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=542.0,543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so it was, it was before dad was he would have been on, he would have been only and 12, I would have been 12, so and then Nana, as we called her, or Louise, she lived until 1974 and so we would see a little bit more of her. But I just, I in my memories of Levi was that he was a very, he's a strong, silent kind of judicial figure. He had been a he'd been a judge and read law and went to the Arizona Supreme Court. And I always just remember him being very quiet and solid and, and I, and that's probably the extent of my my, some of my memories there. His wife, Louise, was much and my grandmother was much more outgoing and much more lively. And, and I. Remember when, when we would come out west sometimes, then we would go to their home and visit. And she always just for us as kids. Had lots of activities going on, lots of she'd always organize other cousins to come over, and we'd have a have a good time there at the house. But I never, I don't think I ever really reached the age where they were, where I got that exchange that you get with your your grandparents, spending a lot of time with them, actually, like now my sister's kids are getting with my father and my mom. They're they're getting a much more intensive experience than we had, and it was, it was more than anything, I think, just a separation. Here, you're close. Proxy here, we're very close. My sister, just a couple of miles away, my mom, helps with the kids. In the morning, the grand the grandchildren, come over and spend hours at a time, either hiking with my dad, or just playing around the house, that kind of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=544.0,666.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And Tom when you, when you finished at Prescott College, then at some point, you made a decision to go into law as a career, and you went to law school immediately after finishing. Prescribed, was there, was there some interim time before you started law school, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=667.0,680.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I had, I graduated in May of 1970 and I didn't start law school in England at Cambridge University until October of 1973 so I had a period of time there several years Where I was doing a number of other things. The first thing I did out of Prescott college was immediately join a campaign of my it was based a fellow named Oren Beatty. He was my Father's right hand person for 14 years, the time he was in the Congress and the time he was in the cabinet, and Oren decided to come back out to Arizona. He was a native born Arizona, or he'd been there since he was very young, and decided to run for Congress in the district where I went to college, and there was this very conservative Congressman by the name of Sam Steiger really didn't fit my bill of what a congressman from that district should be. And and I had known Oren and grown up with with seeing or in around and I just thought he was great. And so dad encouraged me to to sign up with Oren and helped out a little bit financially, and the next thing I knew, I mean, I was orange, really, all purpose a in those days, you didn't have big, fancy campaign staffs, Lauren and I would get in a car, and I'd be his driver, and then we'd get to town, and we'd need to to rustle up the press. And so I'd run down to the local newspaper and bring the press over, and I'd help when we'd be riding along in the car, editing the press releases and helping him out with that. And so I was driver and sign, put her upper and assistant press secretary, and just everything rolled into one. And so I spent from graduation all the way till November, doing that pretty much it was pretty much full time. Is a very intensive experience. And then the experience I mentioned that I gained at Prescott College of instructing Outward Bound courses. I then worked a number of outdoor action courses not Outward Bound, specifically because other courses were starting up that were very similar. And I worked about seven or eight of those in various places around the West, some in Colorado. They're the format is just like Outward Bound. It's a 26 day course. You take kids out, you have a marathon, you have a solo, you have the the final expedition. It's the components of Outward Bound. It's just the programs were named differently. One was called challenge discovery. Another course that I did in in Baja, California was for Denver East High School. High School is an inner city high school, and they had hired us to take kids into the mountains and give them a mountain experience hiking up a canyon in Baja, California. And so we that was, I think that was a little shorter than 26 days, but that was the city. Was the same format, give them backpacks, teach them to orienteer work as a group, those kinds of things. And so I I did that for a period, and then I worked for Senator Joe Biden in when he just took office. This is before. This is before I was still before I went off to. At Cambridge University, and I worked for Senator Biden. He had that tragic I actually went to the first time I met him was when I went to Delaware with my father. And there was a flurry the last three or four weeks in campaigns that usually happens of Senate races that are identified where there's a challenger that's really making headway and has a shot, and that was the case with Joe Biden. He was running against a guy named Caleb Boggs, a three term incumbent. And dad, I was back east, and dad was going up to campaign for him, and I had a day or so. And so we went up together, and I met Joe Biden, and then he did knock off that incumbent, and he had that horrible accident where his wife and his kids were killed before he took office, but he came into office, and I think I started in February, and worked for about four or five months in that time period, until the summer. And then we had some family summer trips planned out west, and we did those. And then I took off for Cambridge in the fall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=681.0,967.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Probably, what did your work? What was your work involved with when we were working in Senator Biden's office?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=968.0,974.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think my title was something like a system for special projects, and really what I ended up doing was being kind of a troubleshooter and helping with with any project that came up during the day that that might be an emergency or might need some urgent attention. I remember doing things like drafting correspondence. Sometimes I get an assignment from the administrative assistant. They say Senator Biden is going to speak to so and so a group and and he needs you to to pull out facts and figures on what's happening in that area. Might be health care might be juvenile, crime might be crime overall. And so I would, they would have a file there, and I'd pull the file out and read it, and then what we call nowadays talking points, I just pull out some of the relevant facts and figures and try to give a little bit of a history in the facts and figures and where we were. And then what would summarize the bills that were pending before the before the Senate, I think I went to, went with him occasionally, to to some of the talks, correspondence, and then then the other part of it was actually analyzing legislation, treaties and legislation and writing a briefing paper for him to to read and educate. And the purpose would be to educate him on why a particular treaty or a bill was before the Senate, how, how many times it had come up, what, how it had changed. What were the amendments that were going to be proposed? What were the pros and cons on the amendments, what, what interest groups would take different positions, the national groups, what they were saying, and what their problems were, were with the bill. So it was basically those, those kinds of tasks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=975.0,1096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, I'll come back to Cambridge, but I want to go back just a little bit before you left for Cambridge, once, your dad took office in January of 61 as President Kennedy, Secretary of the Interior. You know, shortly thereafter, Mo was elected in a special election through a rather bitterly thought primary, and then an election in May which he, you know, took your father's old position as a district, District Two congressman in Arizona, only having two districts at that time. During that time period after, you know, the family had moved to Washington, MO arrives, not, you know, shortly after to take up his first congressional term. Did you get to spend much time with Mo when you were in Washington in terms of visits, talks? And I think what I'm beginning to sort of get at here, if so, what kind of an influence did mo begin to have on you? Because at this time, at the time you would have moved in, 61 you would have been 13 years old, and, you know, up to the point you finished high school, you would have been in Washington. Mo would have been there. And, you know, these are, as I guess, the child psychologists say that our formative years, you know, I'm sort of curious to find out, you know, what kind of interactions went on between yourself and and Mo during that time period. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1097.0,1177.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the the probably in the earlier years, when I'm down around the age of 12 or 13, more of the involvement with Mo and his wife Pat was through the kids. I actually feel like our our two fans. Families, the Morris Udall family and the Stuart Udall family and the six kids in each family, it's really, in a way, like one big family. I mean, they thought they're my first cousins, but the way we grew up, we were very close to them, and saw a lot of them. We all grew up in Tucson. We weren't we didn't grow up very far apart, and we saw quite a bit of each other as kids. And so I think it was my first memory would be, was it was exciting for us that they were coming back, that the kids were coming back? Now, it was very short lived, because Pat and Moe, split up, and the kids went back out and back out to Arizona, but, but that was the early period. Is when my memory of them, of the kids, coming back and having some contact with the kids. And then I think is the is, I got older in the 14, 1516, range, when, when you start getting at the point that you know you're, you're focusing more outside of yourself and what's going on in the world and where things are going. And you're, you're getting into high school. There was a, there was a great deal of contact between Mo and my dad and the they would come over to our house, or go over to Moe's house and talk about the the issues of the day and and there was quite a bit, it was the same kind of discussion that we would have around Our breakfast table or dinner table, or whatever, but, but dad and Mo would be visiting about whatever the issue was. And, you know, I don't even remember many of the issues right now, but the that was something for me, that that I and I think it probably had more of an influence on my life, because I was older than and I was at the point of being interested in what was going on, and so i i Was it most of the time, really, in the role of just sitting and listening and hearing what they were saying about the Congress or about the the relationships within the cabinet, or how a particular issue was proceeding, or discussing The personalities that they had to deal with, and and Mo and dad both have that experience of being in the house, and I think early on, I would imagine, I don't, I don't remember specific discussions, but I'm sure that Moe was probing dad a lot about his experience in the house and who the players were and how It worked. And then, as they moved further down the line, and dad got his agenda together as Secretary of Interior, I'm sure it was the other way around, of him probing Moe in terms of, you know, how to, how do we work all these angles in order to get the to get things through that that he wanted to propose the major pieces of environmental legislation that were put through in the 60s, and so there was always that sharing going on, and visiting going on that I think that's probably the beginning, or The sparks, or were there of being interested in public service, of being interested in public policy issues, and being sparking an interest in me, and in just being involved in my society and caring about how it operated, and playing a Part somehow. And so that was in and Mo, I would describe Moe and my dad. I mean, they're, they're the two of them. As I grew up and as I got older, there it was like having two dads rather than having one, because Mo was, he was just as accessible, and he was always he was always there, back in Washington, if I happen to go back to Washington, although, you know, after I came back out west, I didn't have as much, I didn't have as much contact with Mo although all of us as kids were very close. And we always spent our vacations. We always tried to spend our vacations back with back with our parents. And usually mo would be back there, some of his kids would be back there, and all of my brothers and sisters would be back there. And so we'd have that, that interaction going on. Tom,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1178.0,1473.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did you ever have opportunity to watch mo in action, so to speak, on the House floor. Did you ever go to sessions of Congress. And you know, having been in a vision where I've watched films of this, and one feeling, the one is left with watching mo in action on the floor of the House, was an incredible ability to almost measure my mesmerize people and with his arguments, his logic, any. You have any thoughts or feelings whenever you had an opportunity to do that and sort of watch him arguing a particular bill or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1474.0,1504.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, he would, he was, he was always a very engaging person. And in these, just these living room conversations, whether it was at Mo's house or at our house, I think he just he had that same kind of energy that he really put himself into the issues and into his life's work and and so when you saw him, when my mom or my dad had take me down, and I think I probably the first memories are probably going back to my mom, taking me down and seeing my dad, you know, on the floor. And I was very, very, very young then, and don't remember exactly what the issues were, but the, you know, Dad would be down there talking, and it was really a much different institution then, because I think all of them were on the floor. Then the impression I got later on when I was back in Mo's office, very, very late, as they seemed to all be watching what was going on in the floor from their office on their closed circuit television that was showing them what was happening, rather than convening over there and and and hearing the speeches. But Mo, he was, he was, he's a very dynamic figure. And and he was very outgoing. He was very gregarious. He was always willing to talk about whatever part of his at least to me and and any others that were there any, any part of of his job. And I even remember a few times. He would include me when I'd stopped by in his staff meetings. He would, and I don't remember quite remember the years, but he'd have a staff meeting. I just happened to be down there or something and stop by the office doing something at Library of Congress, and he'd have a staff meeting. So why don't you join us? And he encouraged me to speak up and state my opinion, and he had a way with his staff. He'd always throw out whatever issue it was and ask their advice. I think he probably most of the time, already knew where he was headed, but I think it was a way of a management tool, of including them and making them feel that they were they were buying into the work they were doing that they they were helping shape, certainly the background that he was basing his decisions on, if not the actual decision","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1505.0,1652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom. The next question sort of evolves out of the one I just asked you, and perhaps a little more general, growing up with a well known father and uncle who were both leaders in a new involved evolving environmental movement. The 60s mark a watershed for the environmental movement this country. There's no question in terms of gear switching, in terms of how things were done from from previous decades. How did, how did that influence you in you know, in some of your decisions, in terms of career, some of your stands on environmental issues, and did you, do you look at yourself, in some sense, as inheriting some of that mantle of environmentalism or conservation, or Just, do you differ a little bit from that? Or is that remain a very, very strong influence?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1653.0,1706.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The the, the, the thing that really hit me, the first, I think, was how much both dad and Mo really loved the land and loved being out of doors, and that just always showed in our upbringing. When I talked earlier about us going back and forth between Arizona and Northern Virginia, when we would come back west, there would always be some kind of summer vacation, even when we were the youngest of kids. And I think several of the summers then were spent over on the beach, over on the ocean, at Laguna Beach and and I think my parents were always kind of ratcheting up the the out of doors for us. I mean, it was, it was early on when you're a small kid. I mean, the beach, it's sometimes even hard to handle the beach with those big waves smashing and whatever. But then, then we would, later on, go on Jeep trips and and, and my father took us out and we did rock climbing out in card rock in Maryland. And so there was always a component of our lives where my parents, our vacations, were out of doors. We were doing things out of doors when we built the house, when they built the house in Arizona, it wasn't in a. Tight little suburban neighborhood. It was actually out there in the desert and and we had a horse when we were young. We lived on the edge of a big wash and, and I just always had the experience of growing up in the out of doors and I and it probably wasn't exactly like where Mo and my dad and his brothers and sisters grew up in St John's but, but it wasn't very much an outdoors experience, and learning the desert and learning the desert animals and the desert plants and those kinds of things. So that was the the start, I think, for me, of just having a great appreciation for the environment, just being being a part of the natural world. And then as as you grow older, you start there were all the discussions dad and Mo were having. You become more aware in the world of what's going on, and clearly their work in the Congress and then my father in the cabinet and Moe's run for president, a major thrust of what they were doing was, was conservation, Preservation, just really old fashioned environmentalism. Back to Teddy Roosevelt and some of the real historic figures on on environmental issues and and I think my, my natural affinity for the the the environment that I grew up in and all of that contributed to giving me a real interest in environmental issues. And I, I've, I've, I've maintained that all of my life. I mean, I've been it when I got out, I went to Prescott College. We had that, that outdoor action program there. I strived to be an instructor, and very early was and then spent a couple of years just doing out of doors on the loose kinds of things, you know, just out there teaching courses. When we weren't teaching courses, we were doing a reconnaissance for a course. And so I spent several years of my life almost exclusively in the outer doors. And my cousin mark, as you probably know, I mean, he's, he's, he carried that particular part on, and was the director of the outward bound school for almost 15 years. And at a particular point in my life, if it had taken a little different twist, I I could have very easily seen me doing the same kind of thing, because I just enjoyed it so much and loved it so much, but I took a little different path, and I think in all my in all the jobs and in wherever I've been, I've tried to stay involved with the environmental movement and the environmental issues and where I'm living and that kind of, that kind of thing. And then as Attorney General, it's been one of my big issues here in New Mexico over the last six years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1707.0,1988.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And Tom, I want to talk about that a little bit a little bit further down the road, but let's, let's get back. I think we left you leaving Biden's office, and you're about to go off to Cambridge. Right? What influenced your decision to go to law school at Cambridge?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=1989.0,2001.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I went to this little college of Prescott in Arizona, and it was headed up by a New Zealander by the name of Dr Ronald Nair and Dr Nairn had a network of people internationally that he knew in the education scene, and one of them was a gentleman by the name of Dr Clive Perry. Dr Perry came and visited Prescott, and I had the opportunity to meet him, a good friend of a girlfriend of mine, actually the brother of a girlfriend of mine, went to Cambridge the year before I applied, and I started hearing about that experience then. And he wrote me and told me that they had this great program, international program, for students at Downing College, Cambridge University. And he's encouraged me to apply. And at the time, I was applying to law schools all over the West, mainly, mainly in the West, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico. And so when, when I heard about the program from this friend of mine, Alan Cox, I thought this was a great opportunity. And there and the I worked with the president of school in an independent study program, so I became much closer to him than most students at Prescott. And he was saying what a great opportunity would be. And he weighed in and made some heavy recommendations. And I had never been to Europe. I I'd only. I think as far as being out of the country, I've been to Canada, been to Mexico, but I'd never been to Europe and and for me, at the particular time I applied, it was almost on a whim. I think I thought, Well, this sounds great. Put in the application. I had all my other applications in and, and I got in and, and then I talked with my parents, and I talked with Alan Cox some more about it, and may have had a phone call with Dr Nairn, and the next thing I knew, I was on, I accepted, and I was on the way to Cambridge and that. And I just, I thought, What a terrific way to one, see Europe and have that experience. And secondly, go to study at the roots of the common law. And all of our law is basically drawn from from English law. And so it was a way to to go all the way back. And from what I understood about the program, it wouldn't set me too far back in terms of American legal education. I ended up getting two degrees in four years, rather than one in three years. And I actually could have shortened that somewhat. But for most presidential campaign","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2002.0,2169.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 1976 the Cambridge program went for prolonged. Cambridge","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2170.0,2172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: program was two years, two years. October of 73 and then I was out, and I was back out here at the University of New Mexico in the fall of 75","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2173.0,2182.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: okay, so then you finished your law degree here, and you at University of Mexico?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2183.0,2187.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I got a Bachelor of Laws at Cambridge University. And then they I had been talking with the University of New Mexico, and some of the professors out here. One of them had gone to Oxford and fell abundant in a ballot and and he had told me a lot about their programs here and and they had had led me to believe, and it was true when I got here, that they would accept many of my Cambridge courses. Archibald Cox, for example, was t right after the Saturday Night Massacre, he went to Cambridge from the school he was at, I think, from Harvard over to Cambridge for one year sabbatical, and I took his American constitutional law course, which is a fascinating, fascinating course. It because a lot of it was about Watergate, the Constitution, and all of the conflicts but the the the real point there is that that Cambridge being the basis of the common law, there were so many courses that were just like first year law courses. They could just transfer them straight across towards property, contract law, this American constitutional law courses, so I was able to get about a year and a half of credit towards a three year degree by getting by doing two years in Cambridge","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2188.0,2268.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, when you finished law school here then at UNM, as you said a minute ago, we're up to a time period where most running for President. Did you become involved in Mo's presidential campaign, and if so, in what way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2269.0,2284.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well we were. I think all of us in in the Stuart Udall family, were all very interested in Moe's campaign, and we've been talking about it from from very early on back back into 75 and I think I came home from Cambridge for one Christmas, and at the Christmas, there was a old time friend named Richard Schweitzer with us at the house at Christmas, and we had these long discussions about and Mo was discussing the possibility of running for president, and it was, it was very exciting. And so when I went back to Cambridge, he had already started gearing up after Christmas, and I knew that I was going to be out and be back in the United States sometime that summer and start law school in the fall. So I tried to encourage everyone to send me clippings, and tried to follow in whatever newspapers were over there and and I'm sure that Christmas when we were back, there were probably a couple of times where I went over with my father and maybe some of the other kids. And some of those kids, we sat around Moe's house, he and they talk strategy, about what, what they they were, what they were planning. And dad, I think, from very early on, was, was Mo's national campaign manager, and he was, he was really, they were like Alter Ego situation. If mo couldn't make it to something, dad could go and cover for him just as well. And they were just, they were very, very close and plugged into where they were headed and how the strategy should work and and that kind of thing. And dad, at one point, I think he had in order to help Moab. Out he had, he had bought a lot of gold, put some money in, some gold for for savings, I think, $15,000 or something, and had to eventually sell it in order to support himself during the period that that because he didn't have much going on in the way of income coming in to to keep working for most campaign. But in any event, I came back, and then when I got so, I tried to follow things as they were developing over in England, I got back that summer, and I remember specifically having a meeting with Moe and him telling me had just gotten back from New Mexico. By then, I knew I was going to New Mexico and and this may have been a meeting in his house, or may ran into him down on the hill or something. He said, I just got back from New Mexico. There's this great guy out in New Mexico that's heading things up for me by the name of gene Gallegos. I think Mo. I think mo already knew that I was headed out to New Mexico because he told gene about me, and he said, you know you you make sure and get in touch with him when you get out there. He's my state chair. We had a small group, an organizational planning meeting. We've moved things along. What people are excited, and hope you'll help me out. So I first one of the first things I did when I landed here at Albuquerque, New Mexico. I drove a van across the country with all my things is, is check in with this lawyer that was the most campaign chair, Gene Gallegos. And Gene gave me the he made me the number two person, kind of the Assistant State campaign chair for the entire campaign. And in particular, Gene was here in Santa Fe and I was down at the big university in Albuquerque. In Albuquerque is the biggest city, and so he wanted us to really get going on organizing the campus, getting into the local party organization and and then Gene and I traveled all around the state of New Mexico on weekends and when, when both of us could fit, fit it in on the presidential campaign, it would be the two of us come into town, interview with the press, meet with volunteers. We had a caucus system. Then New Mexico had a caucus system. So the key was getting to communities and organizing the local party activists to be for Mo and since gene had just run for Congress in 1972 in the McGovern year, he ran a very close race. He was very well known, especially in northern New Mexico and and I think most of the active Democrats knew him all around the state. And so he had a had a real base on which to to to build on and to help mo out. And I traveled with him. We organized the university, and we, we had, we organized, finally, organized the visits when mo came in near the end of the campaign and near the caucus. And we ended up we we the first rounds of the caucus which occurred, and I think about March, it was very early in the process. We won the two biggest cities in the entire state, two to one for Moe in the caucus system, Bernalillo County and Dona Ana County, one, two to one, what? And then we had the governor opposed to us. The governor of New Mexico was Jerry alboca, and he was helping Jimmy Carter. They were very close, because they were governors, so we had some major opposition. But between genes contacts and all of the work we did, and then Mo and dad just spending so much time in New Mexico. I think they always felt like, like New Mexico and Arizona were, were the same state, in a way, and that they always used to describe it, having one leg in each state. These as kids, they used to compete against New Mexico teams, basketball teams and all of that. So anyway, I worked, worked all the way, all the way through and and eventually, what I did when the campaign got more serious, they wouldn't let me take a semester off of law school. So I dreamed up a way where I could take a minimal number of courses and then drop some courses right near the end of the great period where they wouldn't go on my record, and and, and I worked very intensively. Then went up to Wisconsin, worked, I spent a week that there was the big race in Wisconsin where we were all very discouraged. Mo, we've done well in New Mexico, but, but it started turning against Mo, and then by Wisconsin, the word was in the whole family and Mo's campaign staff is that Wisconsin was going to be the last ditch, and then Mo was, he was way behind. There was no chance of him winning it, and that that. Know, all the family should be up there to to just kind of end the campaign. That was the idea was to go up, and the family was all going to be there and the campaign would be over with. And then there was that miraculous, close race. And even the networks called it that night. It was razor thin. And so I was up there, campaigned a little bit with Mo. That not Mo and my dad. Stan Curtis Tom, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2285.0,2726.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think I'm going to take a break now. I think my tapes about to run out. And so why don't we take a break for a second? Sounds good. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361#t=2727.0,2729.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270361/transcript/78739/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/739/original/azu_ms396-062_side1_a.vtt?1745266022","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/739/original/azu_ms396-062_side1_a.vtt?1745266022"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - azu_ms396-062_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2759.136,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/362/original/azu_ms396-062_side2_a.mp3?1744848020","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2759.136,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, when we left off, you were, you were describing the the end of most political campaign for president once, that was once, that was over. I assume then you, you know, continued your finishing law school at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1.0,18.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: right, I came back after that semester where, I think I took, I took six hours and and, and I the following semester, I finished up and then graduated May of 77","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=19.0,35.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and Tom, did you then start into private, private practice in Albuquerque the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=36.0,39.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: fir the first job I took was as a clerk to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals judge living here in Santa Fe a gentleman by the name of Oliver, said I clerked for him from the fall of 1977 until the fall of 78 just a 10 Circuit Court of Appeals clerkship. He was the chief judge for part of that period of time, and and then I took a job, following that, with the United States Attorney's Office as a prosecutor with the United States Attorney's Office for three years, working 7881 in I was living here in Santa Fe but commuting to Albuquerque.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=40.0,86.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, so when you, when you work for the US Attorney's office that was working out of their office in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=87.0,90.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Albuquerque, that's right, working out of their Albuquerque office.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=91.0,95.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What type of you worked on? I assume, a wide range of different types of cases. Can you summarize some of your experiences in the in the US Attorney's Office, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=96.0,106.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was assigned to the general crime section, and we, we general crimes was everything that wasn't, that wasn't drugs, basically the drug section. And then there were some people that did some banking and tax crimes. But other than that, general crimes had everything. So it was we had counterfeiting cases, bank robbery cases, all the immigration cases, either smuggling of people into the United States for a fee, people that had been deported but then re enter. There were, it was just all the cases from the Indian reservations, which in New Mexico, we have 22 tribes. So all of those cases, the major crimes on the Indian Reservation, are all done in federal court and prosecuted by the US Attorney's Office. So those cases would all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=107.0,167.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom during that three year time period. Were there any cases that you were involved with that dealt with environmental law or environmental issues at all at the federal level?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=168.0,179.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, no way there wasn't, I don't think there was that much prosecution of environmental crimes back in the late 70s and early 80s. At least there wasn't here in New Mexico. I'm sure there was in many of the larger cities, but there didn't seem to be that much activity out here. As far as prosecutions,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=180.0,201.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were you involved? And I may have my ears off, but there there was a in New Mexico, there was a very strong movement for a period of time, and my recollection is that this is starting in the mid 60s, but maybe it's going into the mid 70s as far Hispanic groups in New Mexico dealing with land rights issues. And there was, I believe, even Mr. Trent terrena, and there was an occupation of a county office. Is this the same time? Is that it's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=202.0,236.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: earlier, a little earlier, it's earlier, it's it's really before I got into New Mexico, is before I came to New Mexico. That was, that was I got here in 75 and most of the real conflict and confrontation had already occurred and had already taken place. Now we're still today feeling some of those tensions in New Mexico, but, but I think that the raid on the courthouse and the con, the confrontation with the Forest Service and the other federal officials that manage the federal lands that was, that was a big issue, and Tom just to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=237.0,276.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: amplify on that a little bit, because I think it's An interesting question in terms of New Mexico history, because history, because you had a legal system in this state that was based on the Spanish system, you know, and it's a particular interest in regarding how land was set aside, how common areas were set aside in these small villages that were used as common areas. And it's very, very different in some ways, in English law. And you. Had mentioned a minute ago. This still persists as a problem today, with with the historical perspective of what happened, and I don't want to get into this in great, great detail, but with the history of New Mexico, where Anglos basically stole a lot of land, there's no question as this went on and and, and the legal system was used against people of Hispanic descent, who lost their land because of it. And you mentioned a minute ago that this is still an issue. In what way is this still an issue? And how do you get involved with this now? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=277.0,328.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the the the issue right, the hot button issue right now on, on everybody's radar screen, is there has been a ruling by an Arizona federal district judge named by the name of Carl Mickey was an old friend of Mullis and my father's, and he ruled that the forests in northern Arizona and in northern New Mexico should Have to protect the habitat of the spotted owl, and so he issued an injunction that stopped all logging on those lands. And not only did it stop logging, but it stopped the small traditional village, the people that live in the small traditional villages, from going out and collecting wood, firewood, firewood in in the forest. And many of these people, that's that's what they eat their houses with in the winter. And so there was this burning of environmentalists and effigy, a whole series of articles where some of the activists on these forest, forest issues that press the lawsuit, some of them are New Mexicans that are over there in Arizona, suing on this issue, and adjoining joining those lawsuits, they have, they have really pushed the issues to the extreme and, and it's very much divided these traditional northern New Mexico villages and and, and the environmentalists which, in which I don't think that should occur, I don't think it has to occur. And I've tried to do what I can to try to to build some kind of consensus and work with both of the groups and talk to them. I'm not involved in any of the lawsuits, but but through there's a group here called the Community Building Institute, which seeks consensus on these kinds of issues. And some of the parties have come in, and I participated in those kinds of discussions and tried to move the issues along. But it's a it's a very, it's a very sticky issue, and, and, and it just seems to me that that there is a way out of it, as long as we get everybody together, rather than sitting on both sides of the fence and throwing rocks at each other, throwing insults and accusations, which, that's what it's broken down","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=329.0,485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Tom, hasn't that injunction been lifted? Now the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=486.0,488.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: injunction has been lifted. As far as the the gathering of wood. The injunction still place on some of the logging and and, and there's a piece of the logging that a judge here is allowed to go forward, and there's some controversy on that, but I think the main there was an article last week in the paper on Judge Mickey's lawsuit, and that most of the injunction was still in place, and what he has focused on is that the Forest Service just hasn't done their work. They haven't gone out and come up with plans to show how they're protecting the habitat of the of the Mexican Allen. So he says he feels he has no other choice. He's not trying to obstruct things. He just thinks that under the law, they haven't followed the law, they haven't come up with their plans. And so he doesn't have any choice but to say, stop until you come up with your plans and show a way to protect","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=489.0,544.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: this critical habitat. So these families are now in these smaller than the smaller traditional villages in the northern part of the state, who heated with wood, cooked with wood. There they are now able to gather their title.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=545.0,555.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I believe they are. I believe they are, but they're because they were stopped for a period of time, I think that they're very worried that it might occur again in the future, and and there's still the resentment","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=556.0,570.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: out there. Well, it's I'm assuming, I've not read the decision of the judge that handed the injunction down, but, but I'm assuming you know, the destruction of habitat from large logging operations is considerably different than a grandfather and grandchildren walking out and collecting dead wood to haul back for fire. And it's too bad that there couldn't have been a distinguishing aspect between this at that point, because obviously a large logging operation is much more. Is much more to. Destructive. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=571.0,599.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: clearly there was a real understanding here. I've never gotten to the bottom of it, but all of the sides are blaming the blaming one another. The Forest Service says, well, they never intended it, and the environmentalists say they never intended it. And the local people say, well, we don't know what anybody intended, but we were told not to do it, and the judge says, well, he never intended it. So you can't quite get to the bottom of why it was halted, why they weren't able to collect wood. They're now back to a position where where they can. And in fact, some of these groups took wood up to them and and were trying to do everything they could to patch things up. Some of the individuals, I think we're trying to reach out, but use the bridges there. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=600.0,646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as a representative for the state of New Mexico. The Mexico itself, as a state, was not involved in these, in these suits, New Mexico's it's not directly, directly or indirectly. Tom, I think we, I think we left you coming, well, when you finished your time with in the US Attorney, Attorney's Office, is that the point where you went to work for the New Mexico health and environmental departments? Yes, can you I?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=647.0,675.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I actually went, I went into private practice. I was in 1981 is when I left the US Attorney's Office in would have been joined in the fall of 78 so the fall of 81 I left. There was the and I went into private practice here in Santa Fe with shared some offices with some attorneys downtown, and I started practicing. But what I was really aside from practicing law, I was also organizing a political campaign. I ran for Congress in 1982 in the Democratic primary, and they the because of the census, in 1980 they created a new congressional seat in northern New Mexico. Up until that time, there were only two seats, and so Albuquerque, in the north and the southern portion of the state, those were the two seats with the third seat, Albuquerque became its own seat with a few other counties, small counties, southern New Mexico was another seat. In the North was a seat and the north, the northern seat was the seat where no incumbent would be running. This is a new district, brand new district, no incumbent running. 1982 this is the third congressional district. Congressional District, third congressional district. So I was practicing law. I was working with My Father on on some of his cases we were doing, I think, during that period of time, some depositions and some traveling. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=676.0,771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: we were doing a variety of either the downwind or cases or the uranium minor cases.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=772.0,778.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So Tom, you ran, you ran as a candidate in the Democratic primary in the fall of 82","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=779.0,783.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, summer the year I from the fall of 81 and it probably really got geared up about the first of the year. So from January of 82 until June, our primary is here in June. For that for that period I was running in the primary. Then I lost that race in 1982 to it was a four way primary race, and I lost to Bill Richardson, who's the congressman in this district. He's been there ever since. So this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=784.0,812.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: new congressional district, there was four, four people, including yourself, who were running in the Democratic primary against each other, and Mr. Richardson emerged as a victor in in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=813.0,822.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the primary, and then one in the general. He's been re elected every time since,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=823.0,829.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: once that election was done with that, I assumed that when you went then went to work,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=830.0,833.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: went to work, I continued practicing law and working on some of the cases with my with my father, and then in the fall, we had the gubernatorial election, and it would have been I, if I had been the nominee, I would have been running and but I lost the primary, and that's when we elected a new governor. The governor took office in January of 1983 and I joined as the General Counsel of the health environment department. I believe it was in February of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=834.0,869.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 1983 and I'm assuming the New Mexico health and environmental department by its very title, is the Department of New Mexico government that deals with a lot of different environmental issues and health related, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=870.0,880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had all of the major environmental issues except some of the ones involving the parks. There was a natural resources department that had parks in the state parks, and then there was oil conservation division, which had some of the supervision in the oil. Gas Industry. Aside from that, all of the other environmental activities, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, Rick super fund, radioactive monitoring, all of that was, was in the environment, inspection of all the restaurants for food food violations. All of that was within the environment department. This was the largest department in state government, and at the time 3600 employees. I was the General Counsel, so I was the supervisor of a 13 attorney office, and it was divided into a group of attorneys that would represent the department the health side of the office, which that was all the state hospitals and the programs that were providing mental health services and other drug treatment services. And then the other side was the environmental side.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=881.0,958.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom what kind of environmental issues when you move into this office as a chief counsel, what types of environmental issues were you having to deal with at this particular point in time in New Mexico?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=959.0,972.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, because of the breadth of the department, it was almost everything it was, as far as the legal issues that were coming across my desk, there were, there were administrative enforcement actions that were being taken in front of the Water Quality Control Commission. These are administrative actions. If somebody has a permit, they're violating their permit, we would, we would take them in front of that, that regulatory board, we the environmental improvement board is, is another environmental board that was responsible for air, it's for all the non water areas, and they would be promulgating regulations so so that the staff At the Environment Department would, in conjunction with my legal shop, develop regulations, and then we go before the board and have hearings and get the regulations adopted. I for a period there, the Cabinet Secretary fired the head of the environment division that was called within this department, environmental improvement division, and I went down to that office and spent two and a half months as the Acting Director of the environmental improvement division, along with my general counsel responsibilities. And in that position, I was actually signing off on all these administrative actions and supervising the people that were working in the department on a day to day","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=973.0,1067.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: basis. Thomas, at this time, did, did this bring did your work? Bring you into contact with environmental activist groups in the state? Oh, sure. And could you talk a little bit about some of your interactions with them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1068.0,1078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Um, the at the time. I don't think our environmental groups were nearly as sophisticated as they are now. But clearly we had a solid group of Sierra clubbers. Audubon. There's a there's always been a very active movement on the nuclear issues in the state of New Mexico. There's a group called Concerned Citizens for nuclear safety. They have, maybe they hadn't started then, but there, there was another group called Southwest Research that was was monitoring this huge nuclear project we added in Mexico called the waste Isolation Pilot Project. It's supposed to be its first of its kind nuclear repository in in the world, and and it was moving along, and the governor, the governor was particularly interested in that, and he was handling a lot of that, although I think we were giving legal back on some of the legal issues, he had the scientific group, group, the independent group of scientists that was funded by the federal government, attached to his office, giving him advice on on each step of the development of this nuclear waste repository.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1079.0,1157.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And I think Tom, if I'm not mistaken, that repository came about because of the bill that Mo was involved with. You know, Mo in in in Congress. And I guess my question I wanted to sort of go into at this point, you know, you find yourself dealing with some of these issues. Your father has always had a long standing interest in the nuclear, in the history of the nuclear, thing that culminated with, you know, his book The winds of August, which was published a few years ago. Mo, got involved in the aftermath of the Three Mile Island nuclear accident, when he launched his own interior committee investigation of Three Mile Island nuclear accident. And that sort of cascaded into a big interest with a whole variety of nuclear issues, waste disposal. Nuclear Plant safety. Did Mo and Stewart's and most interest and involvement in this influence you at all in terms of some of your perspectives and on nuclear problem? And I want to attach a little rider to this question, because I was just reading it in the paper this morning, New Mexico, the Santa Fe and is that? Yes, the morning paper, I was reading an article this morning about this huge new contract that Los Alamos is getting, you know, and obviously Los Alamos is a big thing for Northern for for New Mexico in terms of bringing federal dollars in and projects and stuff, all of this stuff sort of rolled together. And will your dad and Mo's interest in it? Did it influence you in terms of your thinking on some of these issues?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1158.0,1238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, it did. It definitely influenced me in terms of my thinking, because some of the projects I was specifically involved in a period of private practice I was I was assisting my father on the cases and learning about the whole history and and the history is just a very sordid affair with how the government behaved and how it treated its citizens, and in a very real sense, I think it treated the citizens like guinea pigs. I mean, they were they were experimented on. They weren't told about what the real risks were, whether it was the uranium miners or the people living downwind of the atomic bomb. The more you learn, you couldn't help but get more outraged, and then the more you learned, you also learned about the serious dangers of radiation. And there are some real problems in terms of humans dealing with radiation and dealing with its its effects on man and and developing the structures that you need to have to protect human beings from radiation. It just seems like we seem to slip up quite a bit in that in that particular area. So whether it was practicing law and learning about it, or the environment department learning more because the state played a role in the whip project, or following what Moe was doing with Three Mile Island. It had an influence on my life and and I think it made me very cautious in terms of promises that were being made by the Department of Energy or its predecessor agencies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1239.0,1348.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, when you I want to take one step back when you were running in the Democratic primary for the new congressional seat, did your dad and Mo help you with the campaign that did Mo, your fathers are in this area so but did Moe come out from Washington at all to help you with the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1349.0,1365.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: campaign? Well, every, every campaign that, that I ran in Mo, was always there for at least one campaign visit, if not more. He,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1366.0,1380.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he was very good like that. He always when I call him and say, we're getting near the end and we'd like to do a couple of fundraisers and a real quick hit around the district on a plane, he'd just say, you know, tell me the date, and we'll try to coordinate it with coming west. And he'd do it either on the way to a trip to Tucson, or on the way back, dad and mom were the same way. They by then, they were back out west, and they came over all the Well, half the children were here, and then, very recently, all of the grandchildren, except for grandchildren, except for one of them here. So my mom and dad have been spending more and more time in Santa Fe they weren't living here at the time, but I think they were in 82 they were spending the summer here, three or four months in the summer, and so they were they probably came over a little early, because I remember them being here for a good chunk of the campaign, helping out. And mom loves doing card files and that kind of organizing. And dad would travel and visit with people give advice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1381.0,1451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, you worked then for the New Mexico health environment department. For how","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1452.0,1455.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: long I worked for the health environment department, about 15 months. And the guy that hired me, Bob McNeil, who was the Cabinet Secretary, I really went to work for him as his general counsel. And when he moved on over to the governor's office, I moved on back into the private sector, and then eventually, in 1985 moved down with a law firm with some of the people that I had practiced with at the US Attorney's Office, and later became","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1456.0,1491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: a partner with that law firm. And this was back in Albuquerque, back in Albuquerque, and this law I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1492.0,1495.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: moved down there for five years from 85 to. 90 was elected Attorney","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1496.0,1501.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: General, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1502.0,1502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: then he ended up as a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1503.0,1503.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: partner this law, this law, law firm, again, was, it was a general practice","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1504.0,1508.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: dealing with it was a, it was a 40 person law firm had, aside from the Albuquerque office, three branch offices around New Mexico, Farmington, Las Cruces and Santa Fe we did a variety of trial work, and I even got a chance to try a jury trial in the plaintiffs case down in southern New Mexico. As you know, most of the civil cases now, they settle. So it's great opportunity to be able to try a case, get back in the courtroom like I was doing with us. Attorney's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1509.0,1546.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Office. Tom, did this welcome get involved in the environmental cases at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1547.0,1552.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Not very many. Not very many did I No, not very many that I can think of. I'm sure there were some there, but, but I at the time, most of my environmental work at the time I was spending there was a group called the Rio chama Preservation Trust. We were fighting for wild and scenic river status in northern New Mexico, and so I got on the board of that organization, and we were trying to influence water issues. So most of my environmental work during that period of time was outside the office, and it was either involved with a whip project and doing things like that, or up north working on the wild city protection for the child. Tom, you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1553.0,1607.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: had mentioned a couple times since we've been talking, one of the other questions I wanted to ask you was, did you work with your father on the uranium miners in the downwinders cases? And I know you've talked a little bit, we've mentioned that in passing and some of the other questions. Could you talk a little bit about the work you did with your dad on Sure?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1608.0,1624.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, first of all, dad ran those cases as very low budget affairs. He would try to associate outside lawyers to help him out, as far as the trial part of the cases, especially the down Winder case, he brought in Dale Harrelson from Tucson, and Dale was going to be the lead litigator on that case, but dad saved the uranium miner cases for himself, and he really was the one that ended up going to trial. And I, I really served a number of different roles at various points. One was to help him with the research. There was an awful lot of that to do. Then, at a critical point, we had to take depositions, which, for the Navajo Indians, were very, was a very laborious affair, because you had to do it with translators. And one of my law school classmates, who's now the president of the Navajo Nation, Albert Hale, was a lawyer practicing up in the Four Corners area, and so we enlisted Albert and God translators, went up there with Bill Mahoney, another one of the dad's friends from Arizona, former ambassador, and we went up and did the depositions, and then I even tried some workman's compensation cases up in Utah that revolved around the uranium mining issues with a young lawyer by the name of Kenley brunsdale. Kenley worked for Wayne Owens, who later became a congressman, and Kinley was supporting, was Dad support attorney up in Utah, many of the Iranian minor cases. So we, we, so I worked at it at a number of different points when I was in private practice on those cases, and really got to participate in the overall strategy, the settlement discussions, if there ever were any, get to meet all the lawyers, sometimes taking depositions, sometimes backing up others that were taking depositions. It was really a great, great experience, although it was very disheartening near the end. Just kept losing,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1625.0,1763.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: losing, Tom, losing. What? What prompted you in 1990 and correct me, if the date wrong, to launch a campaign to become involved in a campaign for attorney general the present position you hold now, what was the decision making process you're working for a private law firm in Albuquerque and in private practice. And here's another Udall jumping back into public service again. What was the decision making process that went on with you then? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1764.0,1791.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'd have to jump back two years before that, because in 1988 Congress. Manuel Congressman Manuel Lujan left the seat, and I believe, became Secretary of Interior under one of the President of the time, I guess President Bush and President Reagan. And when he left that seat, once again, there was an open seat in the congressional seat around Albuquerque, this would be what district this this is, this is the first, is the first district. So I was with the law firm, and I went to my my colleagues, and told them, you know, these don't come along very often. This is very unexpected, and I asked for their indulgence, could I take some time and do this? And they said that would be fine. So then I went out and ran for Congress, and I got through it, and it was a very short campaign, because Luhan had tried to orchestrate it for his brother. He waited until the very end to resign. And so the primary period was shortened, and then the general election period here is only about five months. I got in a 12 way Democratic primary 12 to it. There were 12 to begin with by the time the voting took place, in June, two of them had dropped out. I still think all 12 were on the ballot, but two of them had dropped active campaigning, and it said some had endorsed other candidates, some had just said they dropped out. And so I won that primary with I don't think it was much more than 25% of the vote. There were several candidates that were right behind me. Then I went into the general election against the eight year locally elected district attorney. And this was the Michael Dukakis here. Michael Dukakis running for president, and as we all know, in the summer he was he was up, way up, and all of us were very hopeful the Democrats were going to do well. And by the end he he really pulled the number of people down. I ran 2000 votes ahead of his voting totals in New Mexico, but that wasn't enough to get me over the top, and I lost by","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1792.0,1947.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: about 5000 votes to the Republican district attorney Steve Schiff, and he is now the congressman. He's still in that position. He's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1948.0,1954.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: still in the position in the first congressional district. So I went back to the law firm, and I just run of what I felt was a very good race. My name recognition was very high in New Mexico, I was getting all sorts of very positive encouragement from people all over the state to take on shift again. People were saying, well, will 90 will be a different year, and it will turn around. And, you know, it's usually those off years where the President doesn't do as well, and we have a Republican president, and so you're going to be able to to take him on. And so I listened to all of that, and then I listened to to mainly, it was my daughter and a few others that she's now in a political consulting business. But at the time she was she was young, but she was very smart, and she thought is the race has started shaping up. With the best race for me was the race for attorney general. And the reason was, is that when you looked at the field, there was nobody on the Democratic side that had been a prosecutor and and most people perceive the Attorney General's office, because there's a major component of criminal experience in the Attorney General's Office is criminal and knowing criminal law and handling Criminal Appeals and all of those kinds of things. So as it shaped up, that looked like a good race. I knew a lot about the Attorney General's office because my wife Jill had had been in the office for eight and a half years, and had been she'd been a Deputy Attorney General, and she we had visited about many of the issues. It was always a fascinating office for me. I almost took a job there. I was offered a job there, but I took the United States Attorney's job. Back in 81 I could have gone to the Attorney General's Office, the United States Attorney's Office, I thought was a better job, and so I took the job there. So that's that they I eventually decided on Attorney General, rather than running for Congress and and I had a four way primary way of race, and won that, and then run won the general election, I ended up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=1955.0,2096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: getting more votes than any. Anybody else on the ticket. And then same thing with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2097.0,2101.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: my re election. It's a four year term. It's a four year term. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2102.0,2105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I ran in 90 and then ran in 94 and was re elected. And so starting out, I couldn't even get out of primaries, and then at the end here, I've ended up being getting more reports than anybody else want to take it? It's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2106.0,2120.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: quite a contrast. And so Tom, you're in your current position. Then through 98 through 98 and then, well, the next question want to ask you, which you may not want to answer, but I ask it anyhow. What? What are your future plans? Well, in terms of the area of public service, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2121.0,2135.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I would very much like to stay in public service. I i I've enjoyed this job. I've enjoyed leading this agency. I've enjoyed the interaction with the wonderful staff that I've brought aboard to deal with these challenging legal issues, and it's a great job. The longer I spend in it, the more I believe the comments that attorneys general made in the past to us when we get together at association meetings, that this is the best political job in the country. Frequently you hear that, but the Attorney General's job is the best, best political job in the country, and I really think it is. It's a, it's a, it's where law and politics come together, and, and that's a very it's where social change is taking place, and, and it's just an exciting place to be. Are","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2136.0,2195.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you? Are you involved at all in Mark's campaign? Up in color,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2196.0,2198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mark Mark and I have spoken frequently on the telephone, and then at one point he mentioned he'd like me to come up, and he would base an event around an appearance I would make in his district. And I think about six, eight weeks ago, spend a day with to a newspaper. We went through the district, met people, we had a fundraising event that night with a lot of local people from Boulder. It's a good event. I think my father followed up maybe four to six weeks later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2199.0,2243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom I want to jump back to moe for a second. During Mo's long career in Congress, he was Moe's was known for his ability to resolve conflicts, to reach consensus. I won't go into a lot of examples. The Alaska land Acts was certainly one where he was able to bring a hugely divergent group of people together for a remarkable vote to pass the final bill over over a long, long period of time, actually following up on something that your dad had tried to do in his last year as Secretary of the Interior, but President Johnson wouldn't, wouldn't go along with it. Did most style or his ability in terms of reaching consensus influence you at all, in terms of your own politics, your own career, and in terms of the things that you you had to do. Did it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2244.0,2286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I I think it must have. I don't. I don't remember having an experience where I looked at his style and said, you know, that's a style I like, and I want to adopt it, although, when I look now at the ways I think problems should be resolved, I think consensus building is very important. This Community Building Institute that I've been a part of here the last year in Santa Fe the whole thrust of that is collaborative leadership, a different kind of leadership to deal with these complex problems. And I think Mo was on the Vanguard that movement of trying to bring people together and do things. And I think that really was his mode, and it was also my father's mode of operation, building consensus, because those, those environmental issues back in the 60s, the things like the wilderness bill and some of these other bills were major. There were major forces on both sides. Tom, one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2287.0,2359.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: of the things I talked with, with your with your dad the other day, was this group that he's been involved in organizing the mineral policy center that has one as one of the one of their goals, which people have been trying to do for some time, is to amend the 1872 mining Act, which still has a great deal of impact, both in New Mexico, Arizona and other western states. Are you involved at all with your partners work in that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2360.0,2382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I followed it very closely. He gets his faxes from Phil Hocker and the mineral Policy Institute here at the house. So I read every one of them. I believe, just like he does, that we need to reform the 1872 mining law as one of their. The worst laws that's on the books right now. As Attorney General, About four years ago, I brought together a group of interested experts, I should say, Phil Hocker with the mineral Policy Institute, the executive director, Senator McClure from Idaho, he did this up in Sun Valley and several others, and had a round table discussion about the 1872 mining law. And then I authored a resolution of the Western attorneys general calling for reform of the 1872 Biden Hall. So it's an issue that time is common. I'm only very sad that the Clinton administration and the Democratic Congress didn't get that accomplished before the 1994 sweep by the Republicans. I think that they lost an opportunity there. They really could have gotten it done. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2383.0,2470.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: didn't. Tom, are you? Are you currently involved at all in the Clinton Gore campaign in New Mexico?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2471.0,2476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm I'm on the the overall steering committee, co chairs of the operation, trying to spend time helping them organize the environmentalists. My assignment is to be the lead person to the environmentalists. Organize them, have a press conference and and trying to identify environmental issues between now and the election, and then I'll be traveling the last four days with an entire Clinton forest steering committee, a group of about 10 around the state, barnstorming trip to try to turn out the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2477.0,2518.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: vote and get the legal stuff. Any thoughts on the upcoming presidential election?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2519.0,2523.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I really, for me at this point, I we shouldn't be too confident, but I think the election is over as far as the presidency, and I think President Clinton is going to be re elected. Not sure quite what the margin is going to be. I think the big issue is what kind of Congress he's going to have. I'm at least hoping that we'll get the house back, maybe the Senate, if he wins by a margin over 10% and this is going to be the first time since FDR, that we've had a Democrat re elected the presidency. And I just hope that President Clinton focuses on history and remembers that this is his last opportunity to do something good for the nation that takes his responsibilities like that. I can't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2524.0,2577.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: help Tom president, President Clinton recently has been involved in environmental issues and to the point, with the with the designation of the new national monuments in Utah, which was, you know, obviously there's some political decisions that go into this too. I'm not saying that he doesn't believe in it, but, you know, there's been some highly publicized things that the Utah national monuments, the compromise reach to present, prevent the mine up near Yellowstone Park, which has gotten a lot of publicity. Do you I asked your dad the same question, do you think once we move beyond the fall election and and move beyond where you know, some decisions are clearly driven for political reasons. President Clinton is re elected, he doesn't have to worry about running again. Do you think there may be a change in the Clinton environmental policies in a second term?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2578.0,2635.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I I hope there will be. I hope that he'll be even more aggressive on environmental issues. I hope he'll tackle the 1872 mining law. If he still has a Republican Congress, I hope he continues to stand up to them on cutting funding for the Environmental Protection Agency. That's a key agency for making sure that there's a there's a real force out there to come down on business and government, cities and counties, if they're violating the environmental","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2636.0,2675.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: laws. Tom, there's another question I wanted, I wanted to ask you, there's a new book out that, you know, I asked this of your dad also, and it's just out. And so you may not be familiar with it, but Thomas powers an economics professor at the University of Montana. He's written a new book called Lost landscapes and failed economies, and the crux of his argument in this book is that the old you. The extractive economies in the West based on mining, ranching, agriculture, to some extent, is dying, and he feels that economic prosperity will grace only those communities that preserve their landscapes and learn to profit from them. Respectfully, this is a brand new book. It's a book I think, personally, is going to be an important book. He's an old professor of mine from a few years ago, but this sort of philosophy, and if you look at some of the data that he accumulates, and particularly in Arizona, I assume it's similar in New Mexico, where the percentage of people involved in gaining their livelihood from the mining industry, from the ranching is been declining to the point where it's very, very low percentages of people who actually gain their livelihoods directly or indirectly from that. Do you think he's right in terms of this, and what kind of changes do you see in that sort of in that context, as we move into the next century? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2676.0,2752.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: definitely think he's right. I think we're moving from economies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362#t=2753.0,2755.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270362/transcript/78740/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/740/original/azu_ms396-062_side2_a.vtt?1745266082","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/740/original/azu_ms396-062_side2_a.vtt?1745266082"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - azu_ms396-063_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":573.48,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/363/original/azu_ms396-063_side1_a.mp3?1744848023","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":573.48,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom, when the tape ran out on us, there you were responding to my, my, my question about the extractive, the old extractive economy, versus what may be moving in a new direction. And you believe you called it an attractive economy. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=1.0,15.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: know, we're moving, moving from economies of extraction to economies of attraction that's very dramatic here in New Mexico, just one example. And then in the 1980s we had 10,000 jobs in the uranium mining industry right around grants New Mexico today we have zero. Those were very high paying mining jobs, and most of the trade in uranium has now gone to foreign countries. I think Canada is able to produce it much cheaper. And so we're seeing that kind of global competition that is replacing some of these activities out here and what, what it's being replaced with. We're seeing incredible growth in tourism. New Mexico has almost $3 billion activity in tourism every year. We're getting more urbanized. The people that are living in the urban areas very much want parks and wild and scenic rivers and places to ski and fish and hunt and all of that is is very important to to them, and so they've gained much more of an appreciation of where we live in the outer doors and the quality of life that this provides. And so I increasingly, I think the West is going to be more protective of what it has and more caring and think more about preserving rather than","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=16.0,117.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: pillaging. Tom. This question raises another question in my mind, because, and I'll speak more about Arizona than New Mexico, because I know Arizona more, even though what you just said, we still have, you know, sitting governors in Arizona, and certainly senior members of the legislature who deal with issues and build and still argue. You know, you know, various protective things for mining, this, this sort of backlash coming out of the election of Gingrich and a number of very conservative Republicans in Congress. These, this tremendous backlash against the Endangered Species Act efforts on the part of conservative Republican congressmen in Washington, you know, including, including mo Mo's long time colleague on the interior committee, Don young, who's now chair, since the Republicans took over and George Miller became a member rather than chair, and George Miller have thinking probably a little bit much more along those lines than than Don young of Alaska ever did or ever Will. There's, do you think this, this sort of backlash against a number of the pieces of legislation that your father was involved with, that Mo was involved with, is just, is a passing thing, much as the sage Bucha rebellion sort of team and went, do you think this is again something, or is this going to be a hard political fight to deal with some of these people who want to another bill introduced to open up some of the Arctic wilderness that mo had set aside for oil drilling. Do you think this is still going to be an ongoing battle?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=118.0,206.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Mo always used to say that that they keep coming back and and what he was referring to, he always couldn't believe it that you'd set up a national park. You'd think you'd resolved an issue the Alaska Native playing claims, or some of the Alaska parks issue, or the drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and then two or three years later, they'd be back again trying to do the same thing. And so I think in order for us to keep protecting the environmental jewels that we have out there, and the environmental treasures we have, I think there needs to be every generation a renewal and recommitment to these environmental values, because the Big special interests are always going to want to pillage some of these national treasures and view that they're being held back by these laws, and so they're going to go into the Congress, into state legislatures, and be advocating for changes. And the people as a whole need to have a recommitment to the kinds of things that we've done in the environmental area, to know to elect people that aren't going to buy that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=207.0,287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Tom one of the last things I wanted to talk to you about you and your present position, and most on Mark, who's running for position up in Colorado, you represent the. The fourth generation of the Udall family to be involved in public service, going all the way back to David King was a territorial legislator in Arizona and his church leadership roles and a number of other people in the family coming up through time in a wide range of positions. You have any any sort of closing thoughts on your family's history and, you know, long involvement with with public service, and I think in the earlier generations, it was a public service that was different. I think in perspective from today, there were, there was some political things, but was also leadership in the church. It was leadership within the within the small communities that the families had settled in, any sort of overall thoughts about your family history and how that has influenced you. Sure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=288.0,345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I in a light way just to tell the story of the brothers and sisters and cousins they they always used to kid me that I was the one that got the defective gene in terms of wanting to pursue a political career. And now Mark wants to do it. But I think that that there must have been something that was passed on through all of these generations in terms of public service. And I think one of the the individuals that said it the best was, was my grandfather, Levi Udall, and he talked about, he didn't talk about politics. He didn't talk about politicians. He just he talked about public service. And he said, If the good people don't go out and serve the public, he says, the bad ones are going to take over, and then then you know what you're going to get. And it was just a very simple way of approaching things, a very down to earth way, but, but it's when you look at it over time. It's a very time tested kind of axiom is we need some of the best and the brightest out there leading us, and if we don't have them, if we scare them away by the the process that we've set up, which increasingly discourages me right now, the whole political process for 30 minute attack ads, the incredible amount of money that needs to be raised, the fact that that you don't have that much of a chance unless you can raise very significant sums of money for most of the major offices. All of that, I think, turns some of the best young people away from politics, and if we have that, we're going to be relegated to really second class leadership. And it doesn't take long for second and third class leadership to drag you down as a nation, drag you down as a state, or drag your your local community down. So we we need to, and that's one of the reasons I spend a lot of time with younger people. Whenever I get an invitation to go to high schools, if grade schools, elementary schools, all of these different young people, if they want to stop by my office and have a visit and spend an hour talking about issues, I always see them because I think they're getting a very distorted vision and distorted perception about what public service is all about. And if they just look at this, these far off politicians on the television, it's like we're not a part of that. And they don't realize they are a part of it. They have to get involved in it. Be fine if we lived in a dictatorship, to not be involved and not care. But when you live in a democracy, you have to care. You're invested in the system. And unless people get involved try to make it better, it's the whole situation is going to deteriorate. So I think we're in some trying times, and I really believe that that we need an emphasis on more public service rather than less, and encouraging young people to get into","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=346.0,561.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it. Tom I think it's a good place to end. I want to. I want to. Thank you very, very much for taking the time to talk with me, and I think we'll stop the tape machine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=562.0,570.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Okay, sounds great. You.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363#t=571.0,573.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146525/file/270363/transcript/78741/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/741/original/azu_ms396-063_side1_a.vtt?1745266141","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/741/original/azu_ms396-063_side1_a.vtt?1745266141"}]}]}]}