{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/1n7xk8689t/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John Seiberling"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 3, tape 25"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Seiberling, John F. (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-09-11"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Ohio--Akron (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with John Seiberling conducted by Julie Ferdon. Seiberling was a Congressman from Ohio. Seiberling served on the Interior Committee in order to establish the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Seiberling and Udall both worked on conservation efforts together."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.037 (uid)","MS396.038 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with John Seiberling conducted by Julie Ferdon. Seiberling was a Congressman from Ohio. Seiberling served on the Interior Committee in order to establish the Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Seiberling and Udall both worked on conservation efforts together."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - azu_ms396-037_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2582.52,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/319/original/azu_ms396-037_side1_a.mp3?1744847894","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2582.52,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape number 25 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good morning. It's Friday, September 11, 1998 and we're at the home of former Congressman John Seiberling in Akron, Ohio. My name is Julie ferdow, and I would like to welcome Congressman Seiberling to another in this series of oral history interviews. You Congressman. Thank you for for joining us. I'd like to begin with just a little bit of biographical information, if I might.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=0.0,33.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Maybe you should check to see if your sound is the level.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=34.0,37.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, well, I can. I can. Actually, I'm kind of loud here. You could see I can watch the panels and back wind it and run it through. I'll be, I'll be watching it okay throughout. We can just, I just watch it and and turn it up and down, and don't worry about it when I do. You were born September 8, 19, 1818, in Akron. Is that correct?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=38.0,69.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was born in the fourth room in the tower, fourth story tower room at Stan. He would Hall, which was my grandparents home, which I'll give you a brochure about its now Museum. Oh, great. I was the first person born in that house, and my grandparents first grandchild. And it was a great place to grow up. My mother moved to the gate house after the gate lodge after I was five, because she said, I can't bring up children in this huge house. It's a 65 room tutor house, but we had the run of the place, which was several 100 acres of beautiful gardens and woods and bridal paths and so forth, and a lot of kids in the neighborhood, and I think that's where I got my first interest in saving parts of our natural landscape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=70.0,131.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Was it in the country, it was basically right","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=132.0,134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: on the edge of the city at that time. The city has since grown around it to some extent, but from the from the higher points on the land, in the gardens, you can look north across the Cuyahoga Valley, and you just see the same beautiful terrain that we saw when I was a child. And I was glad, once I became a member of Congress to have the opportunity to protect that beautiful area, and the result is now the 32,000 acre Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area. But for my interest in the Cuyahoga Valley, I might never have gotten on the interior committee, but I was determined to get on it so I could do what I could to protect that beautiful area for our future generations as well as the present generation. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=135.0,188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you obviously took great advantage of being on the interior committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=189.0,192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, well, I did it on purpose. Good for you. But then, thanks to Mo, I had the opportunity to work on a lot of other wonderful projects in my 14 years on the committee, and Mo's leadership and inspiration made a big difference there also, as well as the getting the support of a lot of the other members of the committee. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=193.0,224.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's great. I'm, I'm probably going to be going somewhat chronological in this okay, well, I'm sorry, no, don't, don't that's, that's it. To me, it's very important to know people's beginnings. In fact, I My understanding is that mo got involved and interested in the land because of growing up in St John's, and that's where his interests stemmed from. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=225.0,249.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I do think one's background and family interests do make a difference my my grandfather was born on a farm west of Akron, and you know the old saying, you can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy. And he became very interested in protecting natural areas. He hated to see any trees cut down, even on his own property, and my father was a great outdoorsman and Hunter and Fisher, and used to go up every winter and stay with the Indians in northern Michigan and fish through the ice and go hunting. What Indians would those the. Chippewa and Ojibwe and so it just seemed natural to me as growing up that if you saw some beautiful natural landscape, you ought to try to protect it and keep it that way. So that's just a little aside, but I better start answering your questions. Well, tell me where you went to school. Well, I went to public schools in Akron and then I went to Stanton Military Academy in the 1930s for four years. And even though I later on became a very strong advocate for strengthening the UN and for peaceful methods of solving our problems, I think it was kind of a fortunate accident that I went to military school because it enabled me to do a better job in in in the Army in World War Two, I then went to Harvard College and graduated in 1941","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=250.0,373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: enlisted. What was your major? There?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=374.0,375.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: American history. Then I after Pearl Harbor, I enlisted in the Army and eventually rose to the rank of Major, spent three years overseas in Europe, was in charge of planning the motor transport supply operations for the Normandy invasion. And even though I was still in my early 20s, I had more authority than I've ever had since","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=376.0,411.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: you got off to a roaring star. Then after","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=412.0,413.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the war, I joined I went to Columbia Law School, and graduated Columbia Law School, practiced law in New York for five years, and then got the opportunity to go with the Goodyear law department in Akron.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=414.0,430.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What area did you what area of law? Did you practice antitrust law and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=431.0,437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: corporate law generally? So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=438.0,439.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you moved back to Akron? Was that 1955","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=440.0,443.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: 1954 54 and when I left Congress in 1986 the end of 86 some of my colleagues said, Well, you're going to stay in Washington, of course. And I said, heck no, I'm moving back to Akron. Why would you want to do that? They said, I said, because it's a heck of a nice place to live. I have a lot of friends, and it's home.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=444.0,467.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, when you moved back to So, when you moved back to Akron, you worked for in the Goodyear law department, doing corporate sorts of legal things. Now, in 19 in 1970 you were elected to Congress in the 14th district. What inspired you to run for Congress at age 52","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=468.0,489.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, the Vietnam War was very upsetting to me. I felt we were on the wrong track, losing young men's lives and killing lots of native peoples to no real purpose. And I, our congressman was a Republican who just went along with whatever the administration's foreign policy was never accomplished very much. And I worked for various people who as a volunteer in their campaigns when they ran against him, and I got more and more frustrated because they couldn't seem to figure out how to beat him. So finally, in 1970 I decided I'd try doing it myself. Now, who was that? William Ayers was his name, a, y, r, E, S, who was Congressman for 20 years, and his principal campaign platform was Ayers cares, which got him re elected 20 times. I mean, 10 times. But had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=490.0,558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you been politically active at all before you ran for Congress, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=559.0,562.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: only to the extent of helping with other people running against Congressman Ayers as a result of that. You know, political parties are anxious to have volunteers. Why I became active in the local Democratic Party and also i The other, another interest of mine. Sorry about this eye watering, but no problem. I became active in in the Regional Planning Commission trying to see if I could, through that help protect the Cuyahoga Valley. But. Which I thought was really a beautiful area that needed preservation. And eventually I got elected the President of the Commission, and I learned a lot about land use planning as a result, although I'd done a lot of reading on it myself, Lewis Mumford books and people like that. So by the time I got to Congress, I had some background in conservation and land use planning through that channel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=563.0,635.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: When you when you arrived in Congress,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=636.0,639.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: by the way, when I ran in 1970 Mo, Udall agreed to come out and and be the speaker at a fundraising dinner here in Akron, and that's when I first met Mo. Oh, okay, he told me he checked with Stu beforehand and found that I was really a genuine conservationist and not just a politician trying to make the right noises, and that's one reason He came out. How had you known Stu? I didn't know Stu, but Well, I take that back. I had met Stu when he was still Secretary of Interior, because through Congressman Charles Vanek of Cleveland, who was also interested in preserving the Cuyahoga Valley, I went down to Washington after the 1968 election and before the new before the President Johnson left office. And we and Charlie van ick, I went in to see Stu Udall to see if we could he would give some of his discretionary funds to start buying land in the Cuyahoga Valley for preserve it for National Park purposes. And Stu did come up with some money, and it was a couple $100,000 or something like that, which to get it started. So that's how I met Stu. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=640.0,725.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and so your first time you met Mo was when he came out for your fundraiser in 1970 What was your impression then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=726.0,730.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I was very impressed. And Mo is not only an impressive person physically, but wonderful speaker and full of marvelous humor and jokes and so Mo was a great success here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=731.0,753.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What? When? When, when you arrived in in Washington. Mo had, had written a book called The job of the congressman. Yes, by then, did you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=754.0,765.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: read helpful book? Yes, indeed, did you and Moe ran a little seminar for freshman Congressman too. Which","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=766.0,774.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did you attend that? Oh, yes. Now was he actually running it then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=775.0,778.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, he spoke. I think other members participated too. But where was it held? In one of the committee rooms. I forget cannon building or someplace.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=779.0,792.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Is that book still being used by Congressman? To your knowledge, I wouldn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=793.0,796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: be surprised. It certainly is the basics, but things have changed somewhat in Congress. But you know, the basic operation stays the same. What?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=797.0,807.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What committees were you first assigned to when you got well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=808.0,813.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was on the Judiciary Committee from the start, and went and all through my 16 years in Congress. But my first term, I was also on the science committee, science and astronautics, even though I had applied for the interior committee. So when I my second when I after I was elected my second term to a second term, I reapplied to get on the interior committee, and got Phil Burton and Moe and a few others to support my candidacy, and managed to get on. And what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=814.0,852.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: year was that? 1972 72 okay, I know you and Moe worked on a number of bills together. The the ones that, of course, stand out the most are the 1977 Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, and then the Alaskan Lands Act. If, if, if we might, I'd like to sort of begin with the Surface Mining Control Act and and and talk about that. Who? Let's start with who were the who were the original sponsors back in 1971","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=853.0,891.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, I'm not sure I can recall all of them, but let me give you. Little of the background of this. First personally, I remember in the 30s traveling with my father through southern Ohio and seeing a lot of land that had been devastated by trip strip mining and and I remarked to him at the time, well, this is terrible. Why do they allow this to happen? And I made up my mind, if I ever had a chance to do anything about it, I would. So when I was elected to Congress my first term, there was a bill introduced by Ken heckler of West Virginia Congressman Ken heckler, to completely ban all surface mining of coal, and he got quite a few co sponsors, including me and Wayne Hayes, of Ohio Congressman. Wayne Hayes introduced a bill which eventually became the vehicle, which became law, which was the Hays approach, was not to ban it, but to regulate it so that the land would be restored and so forth. And Moe was one of the co sponsors of that, I'm quite sure, and I was too, but I took the position personally that the heckler bill should be the standard that we would try to have as a goal, recognizing the political realities we'd probably have to end up with something like the Hays bill, but that was the background, and I know one of the other most active proponents with Moe of strip mining legislation was Congressman Philip Burton of California, and so, in fact, I think Burton was was more hard line than Moe and wanting to get a really tough bill, Mo was. Mo is one of the the people who tried to work out a consensus. Phil Burton was more of the bulldozer approach. But I think both approaches helped a great deal in getting the final result. As I recall, the bill was HR three that became the vehicle, which was the the hard line, not the heckler bill, but the hard line regulatory bill. Eventually got a different number, I guess. But I think that's what the original, original one was. One was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=892.0,1079.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I noticed that the bill was first introduced in 1971 and and it didn't pass until 1977 and in the meantime, the interior committee had reported out bills at least four times, and it went through two presidential vetoes. What Why was it so difficult to pass? Well, the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1080.0,1103.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: cola mining industry was dead set against it, and not only didn't they like the details, but they were against it in principle. They didn't want any regulation. And Congress was in the process of transition, and the environmental movement was still sort of a growing thing. It hadn't reached full power, but a lot of the old guard type of congressmen were still in charge of things, some of the reforms which through the democratic study group, were promulgated, starting in 72 and 70, starting in the the Congress that was elected in 70 and continuing through the Congress That was elected in 72 some of those internal reforms were made, made a lot of easier, getting good people on committees. And of course, we had a lot of good people coming in to the Congress at that time, new members who were not wedded to the old way of doing things. But I'll always remember the first hearing that they had on strip mining in the interior committee, and at that time, the chairman of the committee was Wayne Aspinall of Colorado, who was the old style support. Order of the moneyed interest, sort of person, as far as mining was concerned. And the heckler bill and the regulatory bill were both before the Committee on and they had a commit. I guess it was the full committee had a hearing. Espinal was there and and Jim Wright was then on the committee, and they were very hostile to the to the proponents of this legislation, and Ken heckler deliberately needled them and got them even more worked up. But the the as a result of the internal reforms of the in the Democratic caucus, which resulted in some rule changes in both caucus rules and house rules, we managed to get more conservation minded people on the committee, I was one of them, and so the committee became quite environmentally minded, and the subcommittee which handled minds and mining became more environmentally minded. So the committee was took the lead and got some of this legislation through the house, though we ran into problems with the Rules Committee a couple of times, as I recall,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1104.0,1293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I noticed in his book too funny to be president, Mo stated that parliamentary procedures had killed the bill time and time again, despite the fact that it had parliamentary support. I mean, had popular support. Do you recall what what the parliamentary maneuverings were? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1294.0,1310.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I remember one of the big hurdles was to get the Rules Committee to give us a rule, namely, a rule permitting us to bring the bill up on the floor, because unless you could bring it up under the suspension calendar, which required a two thirds majority in the House, you had to get a rule from the Rules Committee, and the Rules Committee was dominated by the old style congressman who represented a lot of this extractive industries, the chairman of the Rules Committee. I forget who it was at the time, but it was very, very conservative. I think it was somebody from Mississippi. But anyway, the record would show","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1311.0,1366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what I understand, that the coal industry enlisted the help of all the electric utilities in this what? What was that all about? And what was the result?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1367.0,1378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: They could go to the utilities and say, Look, this bill will result in increasing the price of coal because of the environmental restrictions, and so that will make you have to increase your rates or lower your profits. And of course, the that was a very effective argument with the utility companies, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1379.0,1402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was this throughout the country that they got involved, oh yes, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1403.0,1406.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: then they tried to get labor unions involved too. But we had an interesting situation where the the most of the membership of the United Mine Workers were deep mine workers, and they saw the strip mining workers who were not organized as a as rivals. So we did get the deep the United Mine Workers Union to support strong strip mining controls and but some of the other unions that bulldozer operators and so forth did support the opponents of the legislation. So it was a fascinating mix of of interests, interests","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1407.0,1458.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in I understand that. I know that one of the major issues was jobs, increased unemployment. You represented a predominantly blue collar constituency, didn't you how? How did, how did you deal with that? And how did your constituents feel about the bill? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1459.0,1478.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I introduced some legislation to provide for an abandoned mine reclamation Fund, which would hire people who were displaced by drip mining. I. Legislation to operate bulldozers and so forth to reclaim the hundreds of 1000s of acres that had been ruined by strip mining. So my thought was, if we have a charge on coal mined by strip mining to raise a fund to employ people to reclaim the land that had already been destroyed, the so called orphan lands, that that way we could offset the concern of some of the people that legislation might cost jobs. And as a matter of fact, my bill eventually was incorporated into the final law that was passed, and there is a reclamation fund still today that's based on a tax on both strip mine and deep mine coal. The strip mine coal tax, as I recall, finally ended up as 25 cents a ton, and the deep mined coal was 15 cents a ton, because I also wanted a differential. So the strip mining coal, strip mined coal would pay a higher tax, and that that's how I dealt with that problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1479.0,1579.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You introduced an amendment concerning the situation where the the surface land was owned by one person, and the and the subsurface coal by another. Could Could you describe the situation and how your amendment dealt with it? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1580.0,1600.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there was a problem out west with federal land, where the federal government had granted mineral rights to certain businesses, in other words, the right to mine the minerals, but the surface was on. The surface rights had been granted to ranchers or people in agriculture, and so you had a conflict. If a coal miner, coal mining company, came in and strip Mined Land that that would in effect destroy the rights that the surface owner had, whether he was owner of the surface or lessee from the government. And my feeling was, and I think the feeling of most of the people who supported the legislation that the surface owner's rights should take precedence unless it could be shown that he had waived his rights, or knew that at the time he acquired him, that he might lose them. This put Moe in a difficult spot, because some of the big business enterprises in Arizona were involved in mining, and so that was one of the few places where Mo and I were on the opposite sides of the issue, and we eventually did work out some compromises, but that was a very tough situation for Moe, and the compromise we finally worked out was that the matter would be handled in accordance with state law, but that if the state courts found that there was no intention to permit surface mining, that in a particular case, that then the state law would prevail. And there were some precedents in West Virginia and Kentucky, as I recall, that we felt would give us a little peg to try to protect the rights of the surface owner, a legal precedent, in other words, but that's how we finally had To resolve it, because the the rights of somebody who'd already paid for mineral, for the minerals seemed to have a very strong appeal to members of Congress. I'm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1601.0,1771.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: curious personally, if it was Mo's difficulty based on his constituents. In other words, if he didn't have mining constituents to look at, would he have agreed with you? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1772.0,1784.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: always assumed that that was the case, but I never tried to figure it out down to the last detail,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1785.0,1796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: given the tremendous controversy. Surrounded this bill and the variety of issues and variety of players and all, what did you and Mo do to achieve consensus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1797.0,1812.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, the usual effort to try to sit down with the other side and figure out where you could reach some kind of common agreement, and beyond that, Ryan, the only other solution is to line up the votes. And if you have enough votes, you go ahead and RAM something through. We did manage to build up a strong consensus in Congress, just as there was a consensus in the country to have effective strip mining controls. You may recall back in the 70s, there was this tremendous surge in environmentalism in the country, and that was reflected in the attitude of members of Congress, and a lot of new members were elected as A result too. So we got more and more in the situation where we had the votes to do a lot of things. But of course, when you get down to the details of writing legislation, then that's where it really gets tough. But it wasn't until we elected a real environmentalist as President Jimmy Carter that we got anywhere with the strip mining legislation","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1813.0,1907.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: after after six years and and three Senate House conferences and two presidential vetoes by Ford. Did you ever see mo lose his patience or get angry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1908.0,1923.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, Moe was a remarkable, remarkably patient person, more patient than I am, certainly more patient than Philip Burton, but I once said to MO That Mo was the closest thing to a true Christian that I knew in the member in the Congress of the United States. And I said to Mo, sometimes, Mo, you're too Christian when we need to really be a little bit unkind to the opposition, but I think that was one of Mo's great assets. When Moe got up to speak on an issue, everyone recognized that here was a guy who would go the extra mile in order to try to reach consensus,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1924.0,1985.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: um, what were President Ford's vetoes based on, if you know, and, and, and, how was he brought around? In the end, he wasn't. He wasn't. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1986.0,1998.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: the only way we got it passed was to get rid of predators. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=1999.0,2001.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: so Carter was the one who signed the final bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2002.0,2006.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I mean, I think very highly of Jerry Ford as a person, but he represented a political philosophy of being strongly pro business, even when business was wrong. And I guess that's that's the only way I could explain it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2007.0,2032.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did passage of this bill involve any field trips?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2033.0,2035.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, yes. So we had some wonderful field trips. We went. We flew over West Virginia and Kentucky, and I personally had some field trips of my own in Ohio and Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania had was the first state that enacted a really meaningful statute on strip lining and but I'm getting ahead of myself, we also had some trips to the west, and I can Remember flying with Mo and helicopters over Arizona and Wyoming, and I guess those were the two principal places at the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2036.0,2091.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: But were you looking those wouldn't have been coal mines","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2092.0,2094.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in Arizona. And also we flew over Utah, the. Were looking at copper mines, pit mines, because the legislation did deal with that too, ultimately. And we looked at coal mines in Wyoming, though, and I remember flying with Mo in these helicopters with the doors open, and all that's holding me in is a seat belt we're hanging out over open space, and I got some interesting photographs of photography was one of my hobbies and and I used the photography to show pictures to my colleagues in Congress of the horror chamber of horrors exhibits of some really terrible strip mining masses that had just destroyed the surface of the land. So the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2095.0,2150.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: pit mines were also included in the bill by the end,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2151.0,2154.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, they were affected, but not as much, but there was definite provisions for dealing with the problem of Surface Mining that was not coal mining. And those problems are quite different from the problems of coal mining, but never and they are as devastating in terms of the amount of land that is erect. But nevertheless, it, it was a concern of Moses as well as mine and other members. And then later on, after the strip mining law was passed, we we again took a flight or went, went on some field trips over West Virginia and Kentucky and Pennsylvania to look at areas that had been strip mined and reclaimed, as well as those that had not in other words, we were doing oversight of how the act was being implemented back in 8485 I guess it was around there, and that was very illuminating. And we learned a lot about how the act was being administered, et cetera. Let me say that one of the problems that we were trying to address with the strip mining law was to have a national law that would set national base, basic standards, and then have it administered by the States, but in the abs, but but some of the opponents said, Well, let the states handle this. This. Well, the problems. What problem was that if one state like Pennsylvania and back under General under Governor Gilligan, Ohio, too, enacted strong strip mining legislation, but they couldn't effectively enforce it, as long as they were the mining companies were competing with companies in West Virginia and Kentucky, where they had almost nonexistent legislation. So we made the point which Congress recognized that there had to be federal standards. There could be stated enforcement of them over with oversight by the federal government, but there had to be federal standards, or the states would all be competing with each other as to who could have the weakest standards. And that's a point that Moe made many times in our debates on the subject. And I remember when I went to Pennsylvania to the properties operated by the largest strip mining company in Pennsylvania at that time, the C and K coal company and and the they were doing a pretty good job of reclamation, but the president of the company told me that they would they were spending something like $1,200 an acre on reclamation because they said The land is valuable to us, and after it's reclaimed, we can use it again for farming or timber or whatnot. But they said, if we had strong strip mining legislation in other states comparable to Pennsylvania, we'd spend twice as much per acre in reclaiming and do a better job. So that was one of the reasons, I think, that some people in the industry, at least in states like Ohio and Pennsylvania that were trying to develop strong laws, these people began to put the word out that it was in the interests of good operators to have some kind of national standard, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2155.0,2384.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you mentioned a number of the of the players in terms of congressmen. What about staff? Who are some of the significant staff people for this bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2385.0,2396.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, on. The I'm trying to remember, Oh, well, one of the principal staff people, and I can't remember his name. Now, as mo always said, two things happen as you get older. One is your memory weakens and I forget the second, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2397.0,2425.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was Stanley's Scoville involved at all? Well, to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2426.0,2428.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: some extent, but we had a, I will look at Don crane. Don crane on the Republican side, on the Democratic side and on the Republican side. What's the name Peters? Well, we had a strong staffer on the Republican side, and we also had some support from Philip rupee, who was one of the ranking Republicans on the committee, Congressman rupee of Michigan, r, u, p, p, E, so, oh, I'm trying to remember the Republican staffer. Anyway, we did have some good staff people working on and Congressman Burton had one of his staff people working on it too. So that helped a great deal. If,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2429.0,2496.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: if you had this bill to do over again, is there anything you would do differently?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2497.0,2503.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, I think in general, we did about the best that could be done. And significantly, one of the things that the Republican Congress has done, and that the Republican president did Reagan. Under Reagan was to try to weaken the bill, and I'm sorry to say that that the the current administration, the Clinton administration and Bruce Babbitt's Interior Department, are not doing a good job of enforcing that Bill and carrying on the kind of oversight that should have been that should that the bill envisioned. I inquired why to some of my friends and environmental movement, and they said, because, basically, Babbitt is not interested in the regulatory side of the Interior Department. He's interested in no national parks and that sort","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2504.0,2574.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: of thing. That's too bad. It is. Too bad. I'm going to take this opportunity to flip the tape over. Okay, do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319#t=2575.0,2577.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270319/transcript/78640/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/640/original/azu_ms396-037_side1_a.vtt?1744914635","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/640/original/azu_ms396-037_side1_a.vtt?1744914635"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - azu_ms396-037_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2721.312,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/320/original/azu_ms396-037_side2_a.mp3?1744847898","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2721.312,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, okay, if you think we've adequately covered the strip mining bill,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=0.0,8.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, not adequately, but to the best of my recollection, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=9.0,13.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: is there anything you'd like to add that you can think of before we move to Alaska?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=14.0,19.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, let me just say, I think without Moe's leadership, we never would have gotten the strip mining bill through, at least not as good of one as we did. But Moe had when Moe got up to speak, other members recognized that not only was Moe a person who really did try to work out consensus, but Moe spoke for the environmentalist movement in the country, and so Mo's stature made a big difference in getting that bill enacted.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=20.0,60.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I on january 4, 1977 you and Mo introduced HR 39 which I believe became known as the Udall Anderson bill, setting aside over a million acres of land in Alaska, most of which, I gather, was already federal land. What? How did it all start? Did you? Did you and Moe collaborate from the very beginning on this? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=61.0,94.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: first of all, let me say, originally it was to be the Udall Anderson CyberLink bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=95.0,101.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I wondered about that, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=102.0,105.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in 1980 John Anderson was running for president, and Moe wanted to get him on the bill again. And John said, Well, I'll go on it if it's only Udall and Anderson. So Moe came to me and said, it's a terrible thing to ask someone to take his name off a bill, particularly when he's had as much to do with it as you have, and if you don't want to do it. I won't take it off. And I said, Mo, you know me, I'm only interested in results. I don't care who gets the credit. And if we get this bill passed, that's all I want. So take my name off the bill. I had wondered came the Udall Anderson. I had","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=106.0,154.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: wondered, when I was researching this, it just seemed so obvious that your name would be on it. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=155.0,161.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that's why it wasn't okay now in 1975 Well, let's start from beyond earlier, the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, which was passed in 72 and which Mo was one of the supporters of had the famous 17 d2 provision, which said that before the state before any more state lands are selected, And before any more native lands are selected by the Native corporations, the Secretary shall identify lands that should be considered by Congress for national protection as parks or wildlife refuges or wilderness or national forest and said the secretary can set aside up to 80 million acres of land which will not be open to mining claims and other claims for five years, until or until Congress acts. So that's the famous 17 d2 provision. Someone","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=162.0,244.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: once said that d2 is the most, most famous amendment, or whatever ever Would you agree with that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=245.0,252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it was a very famous provision which eventually was shortened, in common parlance to just d2 I still have a T shirt that says me too for d2","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=253.0,264.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: anyway, in 1975 Secretary of interior, see who was secretary, Rogers Morton, designated over 80 million acres for consideration for parks, etc. And there was an article about it in the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=265.0,293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in the National Geographic with pictures of some of these areas. And I. Read this article, and I thought, gee, I'd like to get up and see some of these areas and see what what's involved. So I got two other congressmen, Congressman Goodall Byron of Maryland, a Democrat, and Congressman Alan Steelman of Texas, a Republican, to agree to go with me, and we'd go up to Alaska and spend a couple of weeks looking at these areas and and the Park Service very eagerly encouraged us, and they did all the logistics to organize a really wonderful trip, which we all took to Alaska, and we floated the Charlie River, and we flew up to the north slope and we went down the Alaska Peninsula. Now, Mo wasn't this was just the three of us, and we, I just became very enthused about Alaska, and took a lot of photographs and had prints of some of them made and showed them to my colleagues on the committee. And the result was that in 1978 when Congress, the time was starting to run out for the d2 designations by the Secretary of Interior Congress had to had to act before the end of 1978 so there was decided to set up A special subcommittee to deal with the Alaska lands issue. And Mo and my other Democratic colleagues said, Well, you're the most senior member of the committee who's actually been to Alaska, who's a Democrat, the only other member of the committee who had spent much time in Alaska was Don young, a Republican and so, and he was from Alaska. So they said, We're going to make you chairman of a special subcommittee. We'll call the Subcommittee on general oversight and Alaska lands, and you can chair it, and we'll get this process started. What year was this? 1977 this was in our organizing of the of the interior committee for the new Congress. So I thought, boy, this is really some assignment on how are we ever going to get this through the Senate, where in particular they're very cozy about protecting the rights of other senators on matters involving federal land inside that senator's state. So I thought about it and decided that the only way we were going to succeed was to make this a national issue, and what we were going to have to do was to really work to get the news media all over the country involved in this and get the environmental movement charged up. So we decided to have hearings in the lower 48 before we ever had any in Alaska, and we had a hearing in Washington, and we had one in Atlanta and Chicago and Denver and Seattle, and roughly covered every major region of the United States who testified at these hearings. Well, we heard over 1000 witnesses in the lower 48 alone, environmentalists from from see the the environmental organizations formed. The Alaska coalition had about 50 or more different organizations, labor unions, businesses, environmental groups, League of Women, voters, united, auto workers, tremendous. Number of organizations, and they all sent people to testify in our hearings in the various regions. Fact, we had witnesses from every single state in the Union, and the there was, one of the results was we got a lot of publicity in the local news media, not only television, but newspaper publicity, the Chicago Tribune, Denver Post, etc. And this later I had, I. And people come to me and say, you know, I've testified, and I'd never been active as an environmentalist, but then I had the opportunity to testify before your subcommittee in Chicago or wherever it was, and I've become an active person ever since those subcommittee hearings really got us a tremendous amount of publicity and a consensus developed in the country that we got to protect our heritage in Alaska,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=294.0,627.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how did, how did Alaskans feel about this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=628.0,632.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's an interesting question. The the anchorage times, which is the principal newspaper in Alaska, was dead set against this legislation, and so was the newspaper in Fairbanks, the newspaper in in Juneau was a little more favorable, but the Alaska legislature was dead set against any legislation. They said this, we want to develop our state and the federal government should keep their hands off of it, et cetera. And but the interesting thing was that the legislature authorized the hiring of one of the top national polling firms to conduct a survey of how people in Alaska felt about the legislation, and to their embarrassment, the survey showed that 62% of the people in Alaska favored protecting their natural lands along the lines of such legislation. Anyway, we had all the moneyed interests against us, so before we had all these hearings in the spring and summer of 1940 and 1977 and only after that did we then take the subcommittee to Alaska and hold hearings, and then in August of 77 July and August, actually, we went to Alaska, and we held hearings in every major city in Alaska. We also went to villages all over the all over the state, and listened to what the local people and the natives had to say, and we heard another 1000 people in Alaska in our hearings, and lo and I were hung in effigy, and in Sitka and various other places, who","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=633.0,754.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was behind, who was Behind, hanging you in effigy. There was an","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=755.0,760.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: organization called Citizens for the management of Alaska lands. And the head of it was a guy named Tony Motley and they were actually funded by some of the big moneyed interests, mining and timber and that sort of thing. And they went around and tried to thwart the publicity we were getting. They were organizing counter publicity. They did, for example, in Sitka, tremendous pressure was put on the local stores to shut down the day we had our hearing there to shut the whole city down. And why was that? Well, this was supposedly a mass public protest against this legislation. And the interesting thing was, I remember one of the some of the people from the Chamber of Commerce came in and complained that they were losing all this business as a result of our hearings. And I said, Well, it isn't our hearings that we didn't shut you down. They said, No, but we were told we'd be boycotted if we didn't shut down. So I said, Oh, really, isn't that interesting? They said from the Alaska pulp Company, which was one of the companies that was using all the timber cut in Alaska to make pulp, so they could sell it to Japan, and the Japanese could then make rayon and send it back to us, and did a big markup anyway. So we did learn a lot about Alaska. We Mo and I flew all around and looked at some wonderful places, as well as having some fascinating hearings. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=761.0,875.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did you chair those hearings? Yes, and that was in your capacity as the subcommittee chair. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=876.0,880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of course, Moe was chairman of the full committee by then, and he he was the dominant person. And we took along with us, Margo, Hornblower of The Washington Post, one of their writers. And Dave Hess of night, Ritter newspapers and and a couple others flew around with us all over Alaska, and that got us a tremendous amount of publicity too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=881.0,910.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you have camping? Camping trips? Oh, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=911.0,914.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we one of the interesting ones we had was at a place called Selby lake that's up in the in the mountains, north of the Arctic Circle. And we camped on the shores of this beautiful lake. I went swimming in the lake almost was rather cold north of the Arctic Circle. In fact, the anchorage times, or one of the newspapers had a picture of me in my bathing suit coming out of the water, saying, Trent Congressman severling Takes a Dip in the lake. Anyway, one of the things that happened was Mo and a couple of the others decided to go fishing, and while they were fishing, lo and behold, an airplane lands on the lake and taxis up near where we were camped, and out comes two guys of the Alaska Fish and Game Department, demanding to Know if Mo and whoever else was fishing, had fishing, state fishing licenses. I guess they were hoping to find hoping that, and to their embarrassment, everybody had a license.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=915.0,990.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: They probably wanted to arrest you. The only time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=991.0,994.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we ever saw them in this entire trip all over Alaska, the only time they showed up was when we were camped at Selby","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=995.0,1000.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: lake. So you think maybe that was a set up, sort of, oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1001.0,1004.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: yeah, no doubt about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1005.0,1008.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Sounds like you had a lot of people up there who were bound and determined to stop this bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1009.0,1013.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah. No question about that in the Anchorage. Times. Another interesting thing that happened, I guess I was a little more naive than Moe about reporters. When we first landed in Anchorage in our field trip, we held a press conference at the airport, and all the news media showed up, except there was no one there from the anchorage times. So after the press conference was over, in comes a reporter from the anchorage times and wanting to know if he could interview me. So I said, Okay, you should have been here at the press conference, but I'm glad to be interviewed. So first thing he says to me is, well, the people of Alaska think that it doesn't really matter what they say in these hearings, you're going to have that you've already you and the committee have already made up their minds. Is that correct? And I said, Well, if that were the case, we wouldn't bother to even come to Alaska. I said the reason we're here is because we were very concerned about what the people of Alaska feel is in their interest. We want to protect their their legitimate interests, and that's one reason. That's the primary reason we're going to hold hearings here. And he said, but in all you care about is the votes. And I said, Look, if all the votes, if all we were talking about is votes, 400,000 people in Alaska, which is the entire total population, wouldn't stack up much against 250 million people in the lower 48 would they? But I said, obviously, we're we're here because we're not just here because of the votes next day. Headline, in Anchorage times 400,000 people of Alaska. Don't count. Daesh, CyberLink, so I called up the times I said, this is absolutely total distortion. This is what I said. And the anchorage time, and I demand a retraction. The anchorage times printed things another article next day, saying we've checked with our reporter and we believe he was accurate. And so that's that. So so it sounds like I should have said I will not. I will not be interviewed unless someone else is here from our committee, but he wanted to get me off in the corner. That's the kind of atmosphere we were dealing with out there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1014.0,1175.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: It sounds like the press was not exactly unbiased during and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1176.0,1179.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in Ketchikan, where we also had a hearing, this is kind of interesting. The local pulp company, Ketchikan pulp, which was doing the same thing, cutting Alaska trees, making them into pulp, and shipping it off to Japan. And it was owned by a Japanese company. They they got the local labor union that worked for the company to picket our hearing. And the day before the hearing, I was walking along the street in Ketchikan, and I came to a little storefront that was the local labor union office, and in it were a lot of signs saying, cyberling is a flat tire and things like that. And there just ahead of me was a woman with a little boy, and a little boy was looking in the window, and he said, Mommy, what are all those things, those signs there? And she said something, oh, I don't know. And he said, Oh, wait, I know it's that man who wants to cut down all the forests and stop fishing and stop hunting here and stop airplanes flying in Alaska. And I thought I ought to introduce myself, tell him all that I'm that man, but I thought he's obviously been brainwashed. I might scared him. Scared him to death. Well, the next day, we were picketed at our hearing, and I am a strong labor supporter. Anyway, I went up and shook hands with each one of the pickets and introduced myself. And then when we had the after we had the hearing, the head of the AFL CIO local labor council called me up in my hotel, and he said, Congressman. He said, I want to apologize for picketing your hearing. He said, We know you're a strong supporter of organized labor, but we were told by the management that if we didn't picket the hearing, why we'd be fired. Why this is amazing, isn't it? Talk about tough pool boy anyway, at the hearing, we had, we divided the group up into the witnesses, up into groups representing various points of view, and we had environmentalists all testify as a panel and industry and so forth, one of the environmental organization witnesses was a big, tall guy with long hair, and young fellow with long hair and wearing a t shirt and Don young nudges me and says, looks like a hippie. Looks like a hippie. So this man gets up to speak, and he says, there's a lot of tension in this room. Before I testify, I want to get us all a little more relaxed. He said, Let us imagine we're out on a beautiful mountain side on Admiralty Island, and the sun is gleaming on the bay, and way below us on the shore, there's a female bear and two cubs walking along, and a hawk circling overhead. And man that sun feels good. I think I'll just take off my shirt, take off his shirt, and Don Young says, you're going to have a streaker. You're going to have a streaker. And then he says, in fact, that son feels so good, I think I'll take off my pants. And Don Young says, Oh. And then the kid stops, and he says, No, on second thought, I'll just tell you how I feel about Alaska. And he turns around, walks off the stage, and I thought, boy, that really summarizes pretty well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1180.0,1437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, were the environmental groups very visible in the Alaska hearings. Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1438.0,1441.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: they were. And there was an environmental organizations in Alaska too, so, but we had all kinds of people speaking in our hearings. And of course, some of the best hearings were at the at the in the native villages. I remember at a place on on the Bering Sea, there was a village called Togiak, T, O, G, I, a, k, and some of the people who testified were really old people, and they didn't even speak English. They spoke Inupiat, which is an Eskimo. And I thought, Gee, I wish I weren't sharing this meeting, because I love to take the faces. Take photographs. The faces are just so wonderful. One old man said, and he had a translator to translate. That's what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1442.0,1495.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I wondered. If you had he said, You.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1496.0,1499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: We native people depend on the land for everything, for our clothes, for our food, for our housing, and if you allow the land to be destroyed, God will forgive you, forgive us. Will forgive you because he's merciful, but our children won't. And that all got written up in the Washington Post and the night newspapers and everything, and that kind of epitomized the whole thing. And that sort of testimony getting publicized really got us a lot more support all over the country. So anyway, those hearings were just fascinating. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1500.0,1547.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I bet they were. Mark Trent Wein has told me that you have just unbelievable patience when you're running hearings, that you have an ability to sit and listen to countless people and absorb massive amounts of information?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1548.0,1567.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, that was what my job was. I thought when the whole thing was was finally past. Most said that I was his right arm. And I thought, well, I don't know anybody whose right arm I'd rather be, but I got to get some Kleenex. You were talking about my being a patient chairman in 1975 when I was up on my own with Congressman Byron and Congressman dealman, one of the things we did was spend three days floating down the Charlie River, which is a wonderful Wild River, And our the guide who was in my raft was a big, burly back woodsman type named Bill Brown, and one of the first day we were out on this float, we stopped After a couple hours to go ashore. And Congressman Steelman proceeded to take a leak in the river. And I said, Hey, Alan, that's our I said, that's our water supply. Go inshore a little bit, and I didn't think anything more about it. And after the Alaska Lands Act was passed, it was five years later I got a letter from Bill Brown, our backwoods guide, and all the letters said was dear congressman. Ever since we floated the Charlie river together, I followed your career with great interest. You are a person of civilization, intellect and excruciating patience. Maybe some someday, maybe even in Texas, people will understand that pissing in the river is a no, no. Sincerely, Bill Brown, you can put that in the official archive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1568.0,1705.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's great. Now you were you and Betty, were just mentioning when we were during our short break, about mo taking over the controls of one of your planes when","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1706.0,1715.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we flew up to Alaska in August of 77 you we flew up in an army, I mean, in an Air Force, jet transport. And Moe asked if he could take controls as and flew it as co pilot for a while. And we're going along the coast of Alaska, and over the Gulf of Alaska, just offshore, and as we were flying along, all of a sudden, the plane made a very sharp turn in bank, and I looked out and I saw right ahead of us had been a big mountain that had been in a cloud, and all of a sudden the cloud had lifted, and I guess the pilot had suddenly grabbed the controls and had to make a sharp turn. But flying in Alaska is very tricky. I'll bet Betty told about how we were after the hearing in Togiak, we flew up this long river valley between two mountain ridges, and as we got farther up the valley, the mountain ridges kept. Coming closer and closer together, and there was a low cloud ceiling that peaks of the mountains were in the clouds. And finally, a Betty said to me, you know, it's getting awfully narrow here. Maybe he should turn around. And I said, Honey, he can't turn around. It's too, too narrow a space. At that point, the pilot pulled right up into the clouds, and we flew in the clouds for a few minutes, and finally came down out of the clouds. And we're on the other side of the mountains and in brilliant sunshine, and there are these marvelous there was this marvelous landscape of of forest with one lake after another just going off into the horizon the today Lake. No, it's forget the name of those lakes. Anyway. It's near Bristol, Alaska. But the scene of this, I mean, his flying right up into the clouds. This the nickname of our 70 year old pilot was radar Ray. And the reason was he knew the terrain so perfectly that he could even fly in the mountains without radar. And he didn't. Was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1716.0,1874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that in a small plane, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1875.0,1875.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was in a small plane,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1876.0,1877.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: did you have how many congressmen were? Were part of oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1878.0,1882.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we had about six or eight congressmen. We had Congressman Tino, Ron calio of Wyoming, and trying to remember some of the others that were with us on when we went up for the hearings. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1883.0,1902.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'd have to look it up. So did you have a fleet of small planes? Yes, we had several","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1903.0,1906.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: small planes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1907.0,1909.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and that carried camping equipment. Yeah, all of that. Boy, what a wonderful experience. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1910.0,1915.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was wonderful","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1916.0,1917.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in, in, in, on May 19 of 1978 the house approved Senate. Well, the house approved, approved the Alaska lands bill, and the Senate approved a different version. They compromised on a conference bill, and then the house ended up passing the conference bill, but the but the conference bill, as I understand, died in the Senate due to a filibuster by Mike Gravel. Is that? Is that correct? That's correct. What was that when Gravel was reading Ford's biography or something into the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1918.0,1960.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: record could be, I don't, I didn't follow the details of what went on on the floor of the Senate, but there's some interesting things that happened the first time around the toward the end of the session in 78 we tried to see if we could put together a kind of a informal conference committee, House, Senate conference committee, and reach an agreement on a bill that we submit to both the Senate and House as a consensus bill, and we met for several days in the little room up in the top floor of the Senate wing of the Capitol, and Mo Udall chaired the house delegation and Senator Jackson of Washington chaired the Senate delegation, and we had all the principal actors There, Don young myself and Mike Gravel and Senator. Mike Gravel and Senator, No, the other senator from Alaska. His name slips me at the moment, still his senator from Alaska, Ted Stevens. Ted Stevens, yeah, and we had Secretary of com of interior there and and very high level group of people. And we worked for and we had all the staff of the two Senate, the Senate and House committees there. And we worked for two days and two nights, and till 1011, o'clock at night, and it looked like we were going to reach a consensus, and when Mike Revell and Mike Revell had sat there the whole time and not sat. Work, and when it looked like we were going to reach some kind of an agreement, gravel, then finally pipes up and says, Wait a minute. I haven't been heard from yet. I want, I have some things I want to put in this bill. And so most said, Well, all right, what? What do you want? And he said, well, first of all, I want you to add a provision here, authorizing a a Susitna River Dam, a high dam on the Susitna river. And we said, well, you know, that'll kill the thing, right there, Mike, and there's, there's a big controversy over that, as to whether it's cost effective as well as environmentally sound, and but Mo said, suppose we agree to that. Do you have any other demands? And he said, Yes, I want a provision that says the state can authorize a construction of a highway over any federal land in Alaska, whether it's in wilderness or park or what. And we said, well, you know, that's impossible, and that just would kill it right then. And then, sounds like he was trying to scuttle the bill. So then the Senator from Vermont, I forget his name. Said, Well, Mike, I understand that if we agreed to that, you have one other demand, and that is to authorize, to add an authorization for a C level Panama Canal. Is that correct? And gravel said, That's right. So it was so everybody said, Well, it's obvious that you don't want us to have any legislation, so I guess you've just wasted two days of our time senator, and that ended the meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=1961.0,2209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So that that was toward the end of the session in 1978","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2210.0,2220.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and I thought, Well, you never know what can happen in the Senate. So I made it a point to be on the floor of the House constantly. And every single bill that came over from the Senate as the conference report, I would interrogate the manager of the bill, whatever Congressman was managing the bill as to whether there were any provisions dealing with Alaska, and if there were, I would then demand an explanation, because the Senate has different rules than the house. They can put in non germane amendments, and I was going to make sure they didn't sneak anything in that would have, you know, wiped out the the designations of rod secretary, Rogers, Morton or or some other thing. And I was on my feet for 40 hours straight on the last weekend of the session, just trying to monitor these bills from the Senate. At one point, they sent over a Rivers and Harbors bill, and of course, it had a lot of authorization for rivers projects and harbors in Alaska and other places. So it requires every bill requires unanimous consent to pass at that point, and so when they brought that bill over from the Senate, I got up and objected, and that killed the bill. But it was a pork barrel Bill anyway, so I didn't mind killing it. So at that point, Mike Gravel comes over to me. He's come over from the Senate to see what this bill, how this bill would fare, because he was chairman of the committee that passed the bill in the Senate. So I said he came over to me and said, Why don't you agree to this? You know it doesn't hurt you any. And I said, Well, you guys are playing hard ball. I said, I just want you to see that, that two people can play at that game. And he I said, but let me tell you, ask you this, why don't you agree to the consensus that we worked out in our little ad hoc committee meeting over the last few days. I said, you know, if we don't have it, the Secretary of Interior and the President are going to designate all these as national monuments anyway. But Why provoke a confrontation between the Congress and the State of the State of Alaska, why not have this done in the right way? And he said, Oh, well, I don't want to. He said, I like conflict. He said, I believe in secession. I said, Well, all I can say is, if you want to have secession, you better get a lot more people than 400,000 Near state. That was the end of the conversation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2221.0,2402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What kind of guy was he? I mean, how would How would you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2403.0,2406.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he's a nice fellow in many ways, but he just was determined that he was not going to agree to what we wanted. He wanted to have Alaska wide open to whatever they wanted to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2407.0,2426.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, he, he ended up effectively killing the bill that time around. Right? Yeah. In order to to prevent, or, I should say, to to protect the land until Congress could act again. The executive branch put into effect some major emergency measures, including withdrawing 1000s of acres, if not millions, millions of acres of land. Was this mostly Carter's doing? Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2427.0,2466.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: In fact, Carter and the Secretary of Interior said that if the Congress didn't enact legislation in 78 they were going to exercise the President's powers under the Antiquities Act to withdraw these lands and designate them national monuments, which they then proceeded","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2467.0,2488.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: to do. That's a pretty unprecedented move, isn't it? Yes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2489.0,2492.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: on that scale, although it had been done before. That's the way we got a lot of our national parks. For example, Death Valley was originally created under the Antiquities Act by presidential proclamation. Death Valley National Monument.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2493.0,2512.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What was Carter's interest in Alaska? Had he been up there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2513.0,2514.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Or Carter was very strong on environmental issues. I don't think he'd ever been to Alaska, but he saw that this was one of the big environmental issues of the day, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2515.0,2529.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I understand he put the Alaska lands bill as his number one environmental priority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2530.0,2535.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah. Now, one interesting little feature in 1980 when the house, the house had passed the Alaska Lands Act and sent it to the Senate, we passed it early on, and this wasn't 1980 we passed it in 79 as I recall, and sent it over to the Senate. And Senator Tsongas, who had been on the house interior committee before he was elected to the Senate, was had a meeting with the with Scoop Jackson and whoever was the majority leader in the Senate at that time, And Ted Stevens and Paul Tsongas was a freshman Republic, freshman senator, excuse me, a Democrat. And he got, sort of got sandbagged into agreeing to a unanimous consent agreement under which the there wouldn't be any filibuster of the Alaska lands bill, but there would be they wouldn't take it up until toward the end of the second session of that Congress, in other words, the 1980 session and so when I saw Paul Tsongas later, I said, Gee, Paul, by agreeing that they wouldn't take it up till toward the end of the session, I'm afraid you've played into gravel hands, because he can figure out stalling tactics to keep you from taking it up until finally, the Congress has adjourned. And of course, that's what they did. And they finally did. The senators passed a bill in September, as I recall, after the recess, the summer recess, and the Senate bill did not have some of the protections that were in the House bill. It wasn't too bad a bill, but for example, it did not provide for making the North Slope. Of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, a wilderness. It left open what Congress would do in the future about that part. And of course, that's still a bone of contention today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2536.0,2711.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm going to stop you there, because I think we're just about to run out of tape, and then we'll flip it over. Thanks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320#t=2712.0,2714.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270320/transcript/78641/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/641/original/azu_ms396-037_side2_a.vtt?1744914669","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/641/original/azu_ms396-037_side2_a.vtt?1744914669"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - azu_ms396-038_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2366.496,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/321/original/azu_ms396-038_side1_a.mp3?1744847905","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2366.496,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, okay, we're starting the second tape in the John cyberling series, tape number 26","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1.0,7.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Okay, so continuing with the story of what happened in 1979 and 80 the Senate finally came up with a bill which was not as strong as the House passed bill in such matters as protecting the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge coastal plain, for example, but it was toward the end of the session. And so the question was, well, will the house take the Senate passed bill and let it go at that. And I decided that maybe we we ought to hang tough for a while. And it got to the point where Secretary of Interior, Cecil Andrus and staff of the White House, and Mo and all the other congressmen who were involved in this bill were were putting the heat on me, because I was still saying that I was going to oppose it if the if the Senate Bill was voted on in The House, unless they cleaned it up and did restored some of the house provisions, such as the Arctic Wildlife Refuge. And finally, the Interior Department put out the word that the only person preventing the passage of the Alaska Lands Act was John cyberly. Well, I didn't mind that because I thought, you know, that at least makes it credible, that maybe I would kill the bill if they didn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=8.0,112.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: fix it somewhat. But finally, we got closer and closer to the and end of the session, and it became pretty clear that we weren't that see, I'm trying to remember, did we finally pass it before the lame duck session or after,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=113.0,143.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I guess we did hold it up until after, till after the Congress reconvened in the lame duck session. And that point we realized that it was either the Senate bill or nothing, because certainly Reagan wouldn't have supported as strong a bill. So at that point, we all agreed to pass the Senate bill in the House and send it to the President, and he signed it into law, and the rest is history. So effectively","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=144.0,176.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the election of Reagan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=177.0,181.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that clinched it, clinched","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=182.0,184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it added incentive to get it through. Don young in describing Mo, described mo as one of as my greatest adversary, next to John cyberling. Oh, yeah. How would you describe Don Young?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=185.0,203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Don Young is a unique individual, and he's very strong on developing natural resources. And in fact, when he became chairman of the interior committee, changed the name to the Resources Committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=204.0,228.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's what I heard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=229.0,232.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The idea of somehow Don young, the arch anti environmental member of Congress, chairing the committee formerly chaired by such a Titan as Mo Udall, is really almost grotesque. But I always liked Don young, personally, and I think that in a way, Don Young was a real asset to the environmentalists in Congress, because Nick Begich, who was tragically killed in the plane crash, was a Democrat, and he represented Alaska, and if he had continued to represent Alaska when we were getting the bill dealing with the Alaska lands bill, it would have been much harder to roll over Nick Begich than it was to roll over Don young, because Don young didn't have much support in in Congress and for his position, whereas Nick. Begich, being a Democrat and being very well liked and being a liberal, we would have had to reach an agreement with him, and because he came from Alaska, and had to confront the kind of interests that were opposing the legislation, in particular the anchorage times, he would have had a hard time agreeing to some of the things that we finally got into that bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=233.0,323.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Who were some of the staff people involved in that bill?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=324.0,330.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, Clay Peters was a Republican staffer. That was very helpful. Of course, Moe's staff were particularly helpful, and I'd have to do some checking to recall all their names. Mark trout wine was certainly one who was Moe's Chief of Staff. I forget that's Stanley Scoville. Dan Scoville was another and then there was a woman staff member trying to remember her name. She was very, very helpful. Do you have any women staffers names?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=331.0,379.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You know, I sort of know who you're talking about, too, and I can't think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=380.0,382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: of that, yeah, her name slips me at the moment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=383.0,386.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I do know who you're speaking of, and I can add it, add it to the record later. Okay, go ahead. I was just going to ask you one, one last question on on Alaska and, and it's actually not not directly on point with Alaska, but in 1976 Mo Ran against Jimmy Carter for the presidential Democratic nomination, and yet we see in 1980 that they're working pretty closely together. It appears on the Alaska lands bill. How would you describe Carter's and Mo's relationship in 1980","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=387.0,426.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, I think it was very, very warm relationship. And, you know, there was nothing personal between them. They just each wanted to run for president. That's all. I supported Moe in 76 and though I didn't campaign for Moe, and the reason I didn't campaign for him was simply because my own group and my own campaign committee were split right down the middle between Mo and Jimmy Carter, and when, before the election, I announced to the press that I had voted by absentee ballot and voted for Mo Udall and some of my own supporters were really put out by my even putting it as stating that to the news media, even though they knew my position, they were annoyed that I, in effect endorsed Moe instead of Carter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=427.0,498.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What kind of President do you think Moe would have made? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=499.0,502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Moe would have been a wonderful president. Mo was a really big man in every sense of the word, and it's just tremendous tragedy as to how Mo's life has ended, because he was such a vigorous person, and having sort of brought down by a terrible illness of the kind that he's afflicted by, it's tragic for him, not only Moe, but everybody who worked with Moe and admired him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=503.0,538.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Would you like to break now, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=539.0,539.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: let me just mention one other thing. As part of our tour of Alaska, 1977 we land. Took helicopters and we landed on a high plateau above the nazina River Canyon with cloud with snow clad, cloud peaks all around us, and beautiful day, a summer day, and when we got out of the helicopter, Mo looks at this incredible landscape all around us and says, I want it all. Well, we gave them all. We gave it all to them. It's that landscape is now part of the largest national park in the world, the 13 million acre let's see, what do we what did we finally call it the our. Wrangle st Elias National Park and reserve and one of my subcommittee staffers, Dora trapkin, one in that picture I showed you looking out over in the Zena Canyon. When Mo saw the picture, he said, Let's name this the Dora Trent wilderness area. Well, we didn't name it for anybody, but I thought that Mo was always ready for a little humor in every situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=540.0,631.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Daddy was yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=632.0,634.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, that ought to that sort of summarizes the basket theme.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=635.0,639.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Shall we break for the moment? Yeah, all right, we're, we're back on the air again after having taken a wonderful, personalized cruise through the Cuyahoga Valley. You were mentioning that that one of the things you all worked together on in the interior committee was the federal land,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=640.0,664.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Federal Land Policy Management Act, flipma. That was a very important piece of legislation, as I recall we we got that through in 1976 and it was before Mo Udall became chairman of the interior committee, but he was then Chairman of the Energy and Environment subcommittee, and I forget who chaired the Public Land subcommittee, perhaps John Melcher at that time. Anyway, the Congress was trying to develop some legislation to set basic formats for the management of the public lands, particularly the national forest and the bureau of public land and the lands administered by the bureau of public lands. That same year, the House Agriculture Committee, and I think, with the participation of the house interior committee passed the National Forest Management Act of 1976 My recollection is correct as to the year and for the lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management, the so called BLM lands. The Congress enacted the Federal Land Policy Management Act, and Mo was one of the leading proponents of getting that legislation through. On the House side, I was active in it myself, and I think Congressman John Melcher, and in the Senate, Senator Henry Jackson and some of the other Western senators. So I don't have any strong impression as to the details, but it was a very important act, and I think something that probably the archives would want to have a record on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=665.0,811.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yes, definitely, you mentioned, also when we spoke on the phone before that, that mo had opposed the energy mobilization act.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=812.0,822.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Well he did, and he didn't, what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=823.0,824.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: first place, what did that act provide, and second place,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=825.0,827.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and Mo sort of supported that. And that was after Jimmy Carter became president and made energy conservation a big issue, and someone got the idea of enacting a bill called the Energy mobilization Act, which set up an energy mobilization board. And under the Act, it would have had the power to override any national, state or local laws that were impeding the production and the conservation of energy, in other words, and this could be done without any court review and subject only to challenge on the grounds of constitutionality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=828.0,884.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was this for emergency measure only? No, it was for, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=885.0,888.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the big push was on. Jimmy Carter was all for doing something to increase energy production and conservation, and he did get. Legislation, a lot of legislation through which which had a long term beneficial effect, but someone came up with the idea of this piece of legislation, and I sort of have a recollection that that mo originally supported it. I took the position, and so did Congressman Burton and a lot of others that this was very bad legislation because to give a board that wasn't even elected the power to override federal, state and local laws in the name of energy conservation and energy production, I said that just would open the field gates to a lot of manipulation and even corruption, but the Carter administration was supporting it, and they did manage to get it through the House despite A lot of opposition. Burton and I and others filed dissenting views and in the committee report and so forth, and it went to the Senate, and the Senate tinkered with it some, and because of that fact, it gave the the members of the House who, some of whom had supported it an excuse to switch and oppose it, because the Senate changes, and so it ultimately was killed and was never heard from again. But that was an interesting episode that pitted a lot of liberal and environmentally minded congressmen and against some others.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=889.0,1006.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So you might want to see what you've got in the archives on that subject. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1007.0,1012.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that would be interesting. An interior committee staff person, Mark trout wide, told me that you and Mo were, quote, unquote, an incredible team, and said as necessary to one another as ying and yang. And my question is, what do you think was the basis of your working relationship and of your personal relationship?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1013.0,1036.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as far on legislation that I helped I managed through the Congress without the really tremendous support of Mo Udall, both in terms of getting on the right subcommittee and getting subcommittee members who were compatible, and so that made a big difference to me as a member of the committee. And in return, of course, I admired mo greatly and supported him wherever I possibly could as one of his","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1037.0,1084.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: What do you think? What do you think made you a complimentary team?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1085.0,1089.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I think we just respected each other's commitment to the environment and sound legislation, even though we didn't always agree 100% on details.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1090.0,1104.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How would you describe Moe as chairman of the interior committee? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1105.0,1109.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Moe was a really great chairman. He always tried to get us to look at the big picture, and he tried to get everybody working together as much as possible, and keep them in a good stay, good humor, which was helped by his quick wit and humor. And I think the fact that he chaired the committee gave the committee a lot of standing with the members of the House generally, and the Senate too. He was very highly respected by members of the Senate, and I know he was highly respected by Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill, so that was tremendous asset if you were Subcommittee Chairman trying to get your bills through the house, and then if you could add to that the support of one of the greatest political pugilists of all time, Philip Burton, that that could even make A bigger difference in getting your stuff through the house.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1110.0,1184.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You had once said that if it were not for the general support of Moe, you would not have been a committee chairman. How well","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1185.0,1192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I might have been a committee chairman, but I wouldn't have had as probably as effective a committee or. Or been as effective as a chairman","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1193.0,1203.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: by by, certainly by the 80s, Mo's health was deteriorating. Did the deterioration in his health, health at any point, have an effect on his chairmanship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1204.0,1222.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think it did during the period I was in Congress. Now you you retired it i 1986 was my last year in Congress, even though Moe was having noticeably more difficulty with with his speech and so forth. I remember going down to Tucson in won an election year to speak at a fundraiser for mo that all the environmentalists and in Arizona were trying to put on, and I'm trying, what year was it that Moe was told that he had Parkinson's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1223.0,1272.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: officially 1980 Yeah, I think officially they're saying something like 80. I My impression is that he knew earlier than that. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1273.0,1285.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he called me up, I guess it was 1980 and asked me if I would come down and speak at his fundraiser for him. And he said the environmentalists all said they wanted me to be the speaker. So I said, Well, fine, Mo, I have my own campaign, but I have no problem, so I'll be glad to come down. And I did, and the day I was I arrived was the day that there was a story in the paper that mo had just announced that he the doctors informed him he had Parkinson's 1979 79 well, but when I went down there, I thought it was a, it was an election year. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. But anyway, it was a fundraiser. So, but Mo said that that the doctor assured him that he could go ahead and carry on the same as before, which he did. I remember, however, in 1980 Mo, I think was 80 or maybe it was 84 anyway, it was a presidential election year, and Moe got me and some other of his friends and colleagues together to discuss whether he got to run for president again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1286.0,1376.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And I think that must have been, would that have been 84","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1377.0,1382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think it might have been 84 Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1383.0,1385.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And he wanted to know what we thought. And somebody said, Well, what about your help? And he said, well, the doctors have assured him that he would be able to function as president despite his Parkinson's. And so that seemingly disposed of the question. And I said, Well, Moe, I don't want to be negative here. But I said, I don't care what the doctors said, I said your opponents, whether they be Republicans or Democrats, they won't publicly criticize you or say anything about your health, but they'll start whispering campaigns, and they'll be damning you with faint praise and saying, you know, Mo is a great guy, but poor fellow, he has Parkinson's, and he obviously can't carry on, and doesn't matter what the doctors say that that's that's the kind of thing that you're going to have to put up with. And I said, I don't think you need that, and why put yourself through it? So my advice to you would be, don't do it. And I guess I was the only person present who said that or took that position, but more ultimately, did decide not to do it. Who else was in that meeting? I don't recall, but it was some of his close colleagues. It was a very small meeting, maybe only six people, mostly","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1386.0,1484.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: congressmen. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1485.0,1486.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: all congressmen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1487.0,1490.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I guess Paul Tsongas discovered you were right. I mean, things sort of happened with him. You left Congress in 19. 86 Why did you leave?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1491.0,1502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I got tired, and I thought this is a good time to leave. I thought, if I'm going to leave, I'd like to leave in a non presidential year, because that way it'll make it easier to get another Democrat to run against me, if Reagan runs for a second term, which I'm sure he would, was sure he would do, then the Republicans would be working a lot harder to pick up congressional seats, and there'd be a certain momentum. And I said, if he runs, you undoubtedly get elected. So weighing all those things and the fact that 1985 I had an operation to remove cancerous prostate, I thought this is probably a good time to do it and give me a chance to spend more time with my family and that sort of thing. But there was no other reason why, except it just seemed like a propitious time. And I thought I've done my bit here. It's time I moved on","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1503.0,1581.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and you, you then went on to, did you go directly into teaching law? No, I,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1582.0,1590.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thought that I would really just retire, and when they found I was going to retire, the law school at the University of Akron asked me if I would teach a course in 87 and I said, Well, I hadn't planned on doing that, but what kind of a course? And then they said, well, anything you want. So I said, well, the subject I know best now is legislative process. How about that? And so, Oh, fine. So I did teach it for two semesters in 87 then I quit and went into practice with a local law firm. And after a year, the law school asked me if I'd come back and teach it again. So I said, okay, but I'll then have to drop my law firm affiliation, because under the ABA rules, you can't be a full time teacher and and a practicing lawyer at the same time you're not supposed to be so the law firm business didn't produce much anyway, so I decided I might as well. So I taught it for another two terms, and then the university asked me if I'd direct their center for peace studies, which I then proceeded to do for five and a half years until the end of until June of 1986 so that was the story of my so called retirement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1591.0,1696.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did you know Mo's second wife, Ella?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1697.0,1700.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes, I did. I didn't know her very well, but I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1701.0,1705.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: did. You see them socially at all, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1706.0,1707.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: once in a while? Yes. And of course, Ella came on some of our field trips with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1708.0,1713.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: us. Oh, she did not the strip mining or Alaska","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1714.0,1716.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: field trips, I forget which ones, but how would you ask her, I guess, how","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1717.0,1722.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: would you describe her?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1723.0,1726.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I didn't really know her that well. She seemed like a sort of sad person, and I have no information that would tell me why, or if that was even correct, but that was the impression I had.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1727.0,1745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How about Ella's third wife, Norma Gilbert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1746.0,1749.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I knew her before she ever married Moe, and I thought it was a great thing for Moe that she married him, considering his health problem, and I guess she's been a great comfort to mo too. He's a nice person. She used to be a lobbyist for some causes. I forget what, and that's how I got to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1750.0,1774.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's how you knew her. Didn't she work on the committee for a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1775.0,1778.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: while? I don't think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1779.0,1781.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, I thought maybe she had what would you say? We've talked a lot about Mo's strengths throughout. What would you say was Mo's greatest weakness? Or and his greatest strengths?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1782.0,1796.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, his greatest weakness was. Is also probably one of his great strengths, and that is, once Moe got interested in the subject, he wanted to get a bill, and sometimes he wanted to get a bill so badly that he would take any old bill if that's all he could get. And some of the other members who might be on the other side, to some extent, knew that Moe was eager always to get a bill passed, and so that weakened his bargaining position. I had had experience in four years in the Army and three years overseas in which I didn't mind being an SOB sometimes if I had to, and so perhaps I was a little too uncompromising sometimes when I was trying to get a bill passed, but that helped me, in a way, because it gave me the reputation of being a rather unyielding person on certain issues, and made it a little easier, I think, to get a compromise, perhaps surprise people when I did compromise. Moe filled, Phil Burton used to get angry with Mo sometimes because he felt he was giving in too soon on issues or giving too much. But you know, it takes both approaches, and I think that perhaps one of the things I helped mo with was that I was the the tough guy, and he could be the nice guy on some issues. And that might have been, I might like to agree with this. He'd say to someone, but I got to convince cyberling, are you? How are we going to get him aboard and that sort of thing? So maybe that helped","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1797.0,1925.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo, that might have been part of your sort of partnership that worked well, well, I don't have any further questions. Do you have anything you'd like to add or Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1926.0,1941.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I I think we pretty well covered most everything I would think off hand of being important. I'd like to say one other thing, and though I've already mentioned that, a great support I got from Mo. He let his subcommittee chairman each pretty well run their own show, unless it would happen to be a bill that he personally had introduced, or something like that, in which case, obviously his his interests and views were considered to be important and given deference. But in terms of running their own staff, why Mo was very, very, always very supportive. I do remember one time, and I guess was my last year in Congress,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1942.0,1997.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and there was a bill that came up dealing with, I guess it was wilderness in the state of Washington or Oregon. Where would the? Where would the? Maybe it was Idaho had something to do with wilderness in in by perhaps it was the Idaho wilderness bill. Anyway, it was a bill involving wilderness, and the question was whether a certain part of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=1998.0,2039.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: a mountain area would be left in or taken out of a proposed wilderness because some mining company had had an interest there, and we had a long wrangle in the committee between, basically between me and Jim Santini, who was from Nevada and was very closely tied In with mining interest generally, and the bill we wrangled over in the committee and finally reached a decision, and the staff of the sub committee that I chaired was directed to prepare the committee report and on this particular. Issue. Andy Wiesner, W, I, E, S, S N, E R was my staff person on my sub committee had had the task of drafting the committee report and as well as some final language of the bill, and and he included in the bill or the report, I forget, which the exact language that Congressman Santini had had submitted to the committee to for inclusion in the bill or report? Well, it turned out that that language did the opposite of what Santini wanted and was more supportive of the position I had taken, and Santini and the bill passed the House with the language in it the Santini language. And apparently he then heard he didn't, hadn't looked at it before it went to the floor of the house, I guess. And I guess he heard from some mining company that was concerned that that actually he passed the bill opposite from what they wanted. Whereupon he then tried to censure Andy waster, my staffer, and charged that he had he knew better, that he shouldn't have accepted Santini language because he knew it was wrong, but he put it in anyway, because that was the language Santini gave. And I thought that was the most outrageous attack on a member of the staff who couldn't defend himself, and I really took a very strong position on that. And of course, Moe didn't like to have this kind of dissension in the between members. I forget what most position finding was, but I and I forget what the committee finally did, whether they censured Wiesner or not, but I was determined that I wasn't going to allow a member of the committee to railroad one of the staffers, particularly when it was the members flaw. So that might be an interesting little thing to look into. Yeah, it would be. It really would be. I think maybe they censored Andy, but didn't, didn't fire him. May have been where it came out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2040.0,2259.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, that would be a very fascinating thing to look at. Well, thank you very much. Okay, we may be in touch with more questions later, but thank you so much for participating. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2260.0,2270.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: might want to look at some of Loretta stuff sometime.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2271.0,2273.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I would like to, and I will be sending her a copy of the tape, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2274.0,2277.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you might even want copies of her, her transcripts. Sometimes, yes, I would. I'm editing the ones which I've contributed to. She makes the tape and has it transcribed and then gives it to me for editing so I can take out the egregious grammatical errors and that sort of thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2278.0,2300.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: No, I'm going to close down here. Thank you. This is a quick addendum. When I was when Congressman Seiberling was driving me back to the hotel, he related another aspect of the Alaska lands bill that I thought maybe ought to be in the record. He said that his staff member Loretta Newman put together a show using photographs that he had taken in Alaska, and overlaying on top of that some of the testimony that they'd taken during the hearings. And created this presentation, which during debate on the bill, they had a room set aside that that that representatives could go and listen to the presentation. And he felt fairly strongly that that that may have had an impact, to have people actually see the slides and see it all, and he believes that it had an impact on passage of the bill. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321#t=2301.0,2303.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146514/file/270321/transcript/78642/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/642/original/azu_ms396-038_side1_a.vtt?1744914697","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/642/original/azu_ms396-038_side1_a.vtt?1744914697"}]}]}]}