{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/1j9765c415/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["John J. Rhodes"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 2, tape 10"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Steere, Peter (interviewer)","Rhodes, John J. (John Jacob), 1916-2003 (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1997-03-19"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Arizona--Mesa (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with John J. Rhodes conducted by Peter Steere. Rhodes was a Representative from Arizona. Rhodes worked with Stewart Udall in Congress and on the Interior Committee. Rhodes worked with Morris Udall as Representatives from Arizona, working on the Central Arizona Project, environmental \u0026amp; wilderness issues, and others together."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.033 (uid)","MS396.034 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with John J. Rhodes conducted by Peter Steere. Rhodes was a Representative from Arizona. Rhodes worked with Stewart Udall in Congress and on the Interior Committee. Rhodes worked with Morris Udall as Representatives from Arizona, working on the Central Arizona Project, environmental \u0026amp; wilderness issues, and others together."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 4 - azu_ms396-033_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2486.328,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/312/original/azu_ms396-033_side1_a.mp3?1744847868","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2486.328,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Good morning. It's Wednesday, March 19, 1997 and we are in the home of former Arizona Congressman John J Rhodes on West Mountain View Drive in Mason, Arizona. My name is Peter steer, and I would like to thank and welcome you, Mr. Rhodes, to another in a series of oral history interviews that form part of the Morris K Udall oral history project. And I would like to thank you very much for participating in this, I think Mr. Rhodes, I'd like to start with just a little bit of background. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how you came to Arizona. You were born in Kansas. I believe. Could you tell me how you came to come to Arizona? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1.0,46.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I didn't do it on my own volition. I was, I was stationed at Williams Air Force Base during World War Two, and actually, I had gone to Kansas State University, and you had to take ROTC, so I took two years, and decided I might as well take two more. And so I had a commission, and then I went to Harvard Law School and kept up the commission. Got promoted to First Lieutenant, and when I graduated, I almost literally got my degree in one hand and my orders to active duty in the other and was stationed at major field, California for three months. And we were told then that we would be going to a C, A, F, S, number seven, Higley, Arizona. And at the same time, they were giving us lessons in Spanish. So I wrote my wife, Betty, we were then engaged, but not married yet, and told her that when we were married, we probably would live be either in Higley, Arizona or South America. And she wrote back and said, well, in some ways, I hope it's South America, because I know where that is. Where is Higley, Arizona. So anyway, it was Higley Arizona, which later became Williams Air Force Base, and that's how I got to Arizona.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=47.0,133.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: When I was reading your book recently, my recollection was when you were talking about growing up in Kansas, your father grandfather, you had had a history of being active in the Republican Party in Kansas. Is that not true? And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=134.0,146.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: my father had well and my grandfather too. My grandfather was a county treasurer of Anderson County, Kansas, and but my father was a retail lumberman and council Grove, which was in Morris County and, and, but Alden was governor and, and there was a scandal in the State Treasurer's Office, and the state treasurer was fired. Well, he resigned, had to resign. And Al flandon called my father and said, Jake, I want to appoint you state treasurer. And my dad said, as he's told me, he said, I said, Al, I I'm just a retail lumberman. I don't have any any expertise in finance. And Al said, Jake, I don't care about that. I need an honest man. And Jake, you're honest. So my dad said, well, alpha, if that's the way you want it, that's the way it'll be. So he was appointed and served out the term in the state treasurer, and then ran twice and was elected. And I got involved in politics and helping my father get elected state treasurer of Kansas twice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=147.0,219.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, how after the war and you had settled you and Betty had settled here in Arizona, and you'd started a law practice, how did you become involved in what was influential in your decision to go into politics, into public service? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=220.0,234.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there again, it was a bit of an accident. But as you said, I had practiced law, I began to practice law in May some and after a while, I was doing well enough to law practice so I could afford to start looking for Republicans. And in those days, they were hard to find, and but we finally had enough Republican Young Republicans to start a young Republican club, and then we had a state convention and invited Howard Pyle, who was a very famous for Arizona, at least a radio commentator, to speak to us. And he did, and he was so eloquent and so forth coming. As far as the Republican Party was concerned that after he left, we unanimously drafted Howard Pyle to run for governor. And I said to myself, he'll never do it, because this is such a democratic state, but he just. Decided to do it, and he appointed Barry Goldwater, a merchant and well, very well known but well respected man in Phoenix, as his campaign manager. So about two weeks later, I'm sitting in my law office, doing the best I could to practice little law, and the Secretary said, Mr. Goldwater is on the phone. So I picked it up, and I had never met Barry at that time. But he said, Mr. Rose, I understand you're a lawyer. I said, Yes. He said, Did you vote to draft Howard wild for governor? I said, Yes, I certainly did. And he said, Well, he has drafted me to be his campaign manager. I said, Well, that's wonderful. And he said, Well, as you know, Mr. Rhodes, in Arizona, we have the straight vote, but you can't get people to vote a straight Republican ticket unless the tickets full. And so we're having to fill all of the positions on this on the ballot. And they said, So, Mr. Rhodes, I'm drafting you to run for attorney general. I gulped, and said, Well, Mr. Goldwater, there's something you should know. I like the practice of law, but I do not want to be attorney general. And he said, Well, Mr. Rhodes, or something you should know, you won't be attorney general. The situation is that this is a very democratic state, and you're not going to win. So I said, Well, without understanding, okay, I'll run. And I did, and Howard and Barry and I, Barry had a little single engine beach Bonanza, and we traveled around the state campaigning, and got to be pretty close friends, and Howard Pyle won, and I did not as predicted, but two years later, Howard was running for re election, Barry was running for the Senate, and I got importuned to run For the seat of Congress in the first district, and after long conversations with Betty, it was decided that, yes, we would do that as a party service that we did 52","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=235.0,434.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I think many historians A real turning point in Arizona political history. Senator Goldwater won election for the first time in 52 upsetting Senator Ernest McFarland, who was majority leader of the United States Senate. And if my memory serves me right, you upset Congressman John Murdock, who, if again, my memory serves me right, was was chairman of the interior committee, that's correct, which always has been a fairly important committee position, which mo filled many years later in terms of activities relating to the western states, particularly, you're upset of Murdoch in 52 and Senator Goldwater's upset, because I think they really were upsets, particularly Senator Goldwater of McFarland, because McFarland was a fairly powerful figure in the United States Senate. What do you in reminiscing thinking back, what do you attribute those upset victories to?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=435.0,492.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I really attribute them mainly to the fact that Dwight Eisenhower was a Republican candidate and his coattails were rather huge. And Barry, and I have often sort of joked about it said, Well, I won on our coattails, indeed. But you know that that was the main thing, but, but Arizona is a conservative state and and at that time, the Democratic Party nationally was beginning to get the the name for being quite liberal. The Taft Hartley Act had been passed and and Truman had vetoed it, and it was passed over his veto, and that was a big issue. And, and Truman, you know, Harry Truman is very well respected and popular ex president, but I'll tell you, in the late 40s, he had his problems. If he had run for been able to run for president in 1952 he would have been shellacked. But so that is one. I think those are the main reasons that Barry and I actually John Murdock had a very bad primary. He had two opponents, and they just John had always said, When I get to be chairman of the interior committee, we will be able to vote out the Central Arizona Project authorization. Well, he couldn't do it. He couldn't get it out of his own committee. And some of his opponents in the primary have painted him as being an old man who had lost his marbles and so on and so forth, all of which was not true. Truth, but nevertheless, that was the image which was facing him when the general election came about. So I didn't say a word in the general election about John Murdock, except to say that I was not going to swim for election on the Colorado River as some of the my president, some of the people had done, including John Murdock, but that I would do my very best to make sure that we had the Central Arizona Project authorized. And also I said, Dwight Eisenhower is going to be the next President of the United States, and Ike needs me. So anyway, it worked","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=493.0,640.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when Mr. Rhodes, when you join, when you first joined the Arizona delegation in 1952 obviously, Senator Goldwater was joining it for the first time, along with yourself. Senator Hayden was already there in place. And I believe working at Port Patton was the district too, because Arizona only had two districts, and port Patton was the was the district to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=641.0,663.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he pronounce it at 4k porque he wanted, yes, he didn't want things. He didn't want to be Porky B or Ky, Bo, or qu, E, poor K. And nobody knows quite why. But anyway,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=664.0,677.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: one of the things I was interested in was when you first joined the delegation as a freshman Congressman, your first meetings with Senator Hayden. And this, Senator Hayden, to those of us today, is almost a legendary figure, and what was it like to meet him for the first time? And can you remember the first time you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=678.0,696.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: met him? Oh, yes, I certainly do well. Is it the naturally when I got to Washington, I went over to call on senator Hayden. After all, he was the head of the delegation and and we sat and chatted for a time. And yes, I, I was, it was with fear and trepidation, because I didn't know how, how he would receive a brash young lawyer from Mesa who has just been elected in an upset over one of his own democratic co Ferrers, but he was very kind to me and said that whatever I needed in the way of support to get my office started, and so on so forth. His people would, would provide and and they did the the Hayden office staff was, was just great to me. Always were, and so was the senator.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=697.0,757.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And how about Congressman Patton? Did you work together in the first term,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=758.0,762.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: absolutely, 4k I called him Porky, and then he kept a poor cage on, and he was he said, It's interesting when you look at the way Arizona was divided districts, isn't it? I said, Yes, it is. He said, You have Maricopa County, which is in the middle of the state, and I have the rest of states that you could say that. I have the donut, and you have the whole I said, Yes, 4k you could say that, but you better not so, yes, we, we got along very well. And his wife, Mary, was very kind to Eddie and and in fact, the inaugural ball, when Eisenhower was inaugurated, we went with the patents, and it was the worst organized inaugural inaugural ball you ever saw in your Life. We just after being in traffic jam for three hours, we finally got to the gymnasium at the Georgetown University, and it was just belly to belly like most Washington affairs. So we stayed for 25 minutes or so, and then the four of us went to a White Castle and got a couple of hamburgers, but the patents had, they were, they were very good people, and very good to us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=763.0,849.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Congressman Patton loses in 1954 to Stuart Udall, who gets elected for the first","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=850.0,857.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 4k of patent did not run in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=858.0,859.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 50. He chose not to run. He chose not Stewart ran the primary. Then that's correct, and ran and ran. I'm trying to remember who Stuart's Republican opponent was in 54 I can't recall right off the top of my head, but Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=860.0,870.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: it was Henry Zip. Zip wins the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=871.0,878.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: election, yes, and is now, you know, and takes office, is now the district to Arizona, second congressman, correct? Do you recall when you met Stewart for the first time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=879.0,890.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, after he was elected, I had not, I had not known him before, and he, he was a. A gung ho Democrat, if there ever was one. But, and since it was a Democratic Congress, the Democrats weren't really being very kind to Republicans and and if Stu had asked me, as he didn't if he should go on the interior committee. I would have told him no, because I was on the interior committee, and there are only two of us, and it seemed to me that it was would be better if he would go on public works or one of some one of the other committees that were also very important in the state. Well, he decided not to do that. And so we, we mainly work together, although we, our philosophies were, were not very compatible to was a in my way of thinking, a very liberal democrat and and he thought that I was very conservative Republican, and we were both right and but we didn't let it get to be a sword between us. In fact, I think the first time I ever heard that the little saying you don't have to be disagreeable just because you disagree, that maybe Stu and I applied it to each other, and we weren't we, personally, we got along extremely well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=891.0,986.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did your working relationship with Stuart change at all after he left Congress and was appointed Secretary of the Interior in the Kennedy administration? Did your the working relationship change?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=987.0,999.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it was completely different, because, of course, Secretary of Interior, he had, well, he had responsibilities and and areas of interest that were beyond whatever I would be doing. I left the interior committee in 1958 and went to the Appropriations Committee, so there wasn't as much reason for us to work together at that time as we did later on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1000.0,1033.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mark Marshall gets elected 1961 special election to succeed his brother, who resigned after actually winning his fourth term, Mo, takes office in late spring, early summer, 61 in the special election. Do you recall meeting Mo? Oh yeah, the first time? Oh","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1034.0,1052.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: yes, I had met mo before. I think of a couple of bar conventions, and we got along amazingly well. All we did and,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1053.0,1065.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: but Mo was also pretty liberal Democrat, and we had this little thing going from time to time. After we got to know each other quite well, we have a tough vote on the floor. I'd vote one way, and Mo would go toward another, and and one of us would say to the other. And I think I started this, how can you when you're so smart, Mo, how can you be wrong so often? And his answer was same to you, fella, that's sort of the way we the way we did it. But we, of course, when we really got into a situation where we wanted to work together and had to work together, was when we started after we had won the lawsuit with California, and started working on authorization of the Central Arizona Project,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1066.0,1117.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the working, your working relationship with Morris in Congress, with Stewart now as Secretary of the Interior, Senator Goldwater, Senator Hayden still there, getting close to retirement, but he's still There. There seems to have been an amazing ability of all of you to work together towards the cap goal. I mean it just when you when I read back through the histories that have been written the newspaper clippings of the time, even though all of you represented, you know different different political views, you know you and center gold were certainly a little a little more closer together than you and Stuart and Morris were, but you were able to work together for something that obviously had been a political issue for Arizona for a long, long time, and how, how and why were you able to do this in terms of we see in Congress Today? And you know, again, maybe it's just immediate too much. We see people spitting each other all the time. This group of people in the late 50s, early 60s, really came together, you know, and then through 68 when the final authorization got to achieve a goal, I wonder if you could speak a little bit Mr. Rhodes to the ability of all. Of you to work together, and then also with organizations back in the Arizona, interstate stream Commission, the cap organizations in the state, all of you working together for one goal. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1118.0,1209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there's one piece of the picture that you need to bring in those show I'll bring you right now, and you'll recall this, that in 1964 Barry Goldwater ran for president, so he did not run for the Senate, and so therefore he was not in the Senate during the time that we were really working on the authorization of the Central Arizona Project. Paul Fannin, who had been governor three Trent three terms. Was the Senator and and Paul well, when people ask me to describe Paul Fannin as, just like I said, he is probably the finest man I ever knew, and he is. Paul was wonderful senator, wonderful friend, and he fit right into the picture, and was one of the reasons that we were able to work together so well. Stu being Secretary of the Interior was a great asset to Arizona and to us, because one of the big compromises that were made when we were really charging to get the authorization was dropping the bridge Canyon Dam from the project in exchange for permission to Put a coal fired plant to produce power needed to lift the water from the Colorado River up through the Bucha in tunnel into central Arizona. And that probably would not have been a we probably wouldn't have been able to accomplish that if we hadn't had somebody, the Secretary of the Interior, who really understood the situation and had the clout to to do what he did, that that alone got one of the main opponents of the central Arizona project in the interior committee to come right around and be for it, John Saylor. John Saylor was the ranking Republican on the interior committee at that time, and he was Mr. Conservation, the Sierra Club, and all those people thought John Saylor hung the moon, and they should, because he really did a job for them. But and it was mainly through Stu that we were able to get the commitment that if we agreed to drop bridge Canyon, that the those entities led by John Saylor would then turn around and support the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1210.0,1375.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: cap at the time, Congressman Aspinal, yes, was a problem. He sure was. Could you talk a little bit about that? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1376.0,1382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Wayne Aspen Hall was a good friend. I we were both masons, 33rd degree and Beta Theta Pi brothers and so on, so forth. And good friends. But Wayne, for some reason, and we Well, I think he thought that he had to to protect Colorado. Was very hard. Nosed about the central Arizona project. He was doubting that the water supply was sufficient to make it feasible, and was he never did quite get in bed with the radical conservationists, as I call them, but nevertheless, he was carrying water for for them, on on his on his back. So it was, it was very difficult to get the to get him to even be fair with us, as far as consideration in that committee was concerned. So this was, I think, of the 19 was in 1968 he there had been hearings in this, the interior committee of the house, but there was no markup of the bill, and after the hearings that the matter was just postponed and the law, which was passed back in the 40s, provided that the Congress should adjourn Each year by July 31 well, along comes July 31 and Wayne Aspinall lets it be known. In fact, I think he made a speech on the floor that he was a law abiding citizen. And the law is that Congress was to adjourn on July 31 and he Wayne Aspinall was a journey, and he did. He. He went home and Mo and I said, What are we? What are we going to do? Well, I said, that's just raise hell with him making so we made a few speeches on the floor and things like that, and getting over it all. And then we got with Floyd domini and I, and I think Moe was there too. Floyd says, John, why don't you use the position that Carl Hayden has to to run around Wayne aspina. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, you are ranking Republican on the Public Works Appropriations Subcommittee. I said, Yes. He said, You have already passed your bill, have you not? I said, Yes. He said, it's in the Senate, and we should Why don't you get Senator Hayden to put an authorization of the central Arizona project on that public works appropriations bill. I said, Lord, if we did that, and assuming that stayed there through the Senate and came back to the house, it would be bad on a point of order. And he said, but you could go to the Rules Committee and get a rule waiving points of order. I said, Yeah, we had all kinds of support from Democrats. We could, well anyway, that's what we did. Aiden put it on on the Senate bill, the appropriate Public Works appropriations bill came out, and right away, Wayne Aspinall found out about it, and he started making phone calls. Well, in the meantime, we had talked to the Speaker of the House, John McCormick, and John McCormick had agreed to, if it came back to the house with that amendment on it, that he would submit it to the Rules Committee to get a rule waiving points of order. And then we had to talk to Mike Kerwin. Mike was the chairman of the Public Works subcommittee, and Mike and I got along very well, but he was also, he was chairman of the Democratic Congressional committee, so he wasn't very helpful to Republicans as Republicans. So I said, I've got to have Carl Hayden come over here and talk to him. So I got Roy Elson, and Roy said, Okay, we'll we'll be over there at such and such a time. I made an appointment. We met in Wayne in my kirwan's office. And those two had known each other for a long time, and and Carl was almost he was in his late 80s, and Mike Kerwin was much younger, and both of them deaf, as opposed I made it sure that gene Wilhelm, who was the Chief Clerk of the Public Works subcommittee of the house, would be there, because I wanted him to hear what was going to be said. So after the two oxygen areas that reminisced a bit. Finally, Mike Kerwin said, Carl, I'm not at all sure I know what it is that you and John want to do, but if you want it, I'm for you. I turn it well, I said, Gene, did you hear that? He said, Yes, I did. So anyway, we had, we had Wayne Aspen, all completely boxed in, and he found that out came roaring back to Washington, called his committee to order, and they proceed to mark up the Central Arizona Project Bill and and he proceeded to tell everybody what his price was, which was Nine reclamation projects in his district in Colorado, most of them sort of dogs, as far as the benefit to cost ratio was concerned. And in my own defense, I've got to say I didn't have much to do with those negotiations, because they didn't want a Republican around in that and so and I was just as happy not to be there, but anyway, that it was that was accomplished, but the last thing that he wanted was the proviso that the Colorado project would proceed on the same page as the central Arizona project as far as financing was concerned. And of course, authorization is just a hunting license. You still have the after that. You got to get the money. So Mo said to me, John, I don't really want to give in on that. Mo, don't worry about it, because he's got his power, and we've got ours. Ours is in appropriations. I said, I guarantee you that if this authorization bill goes through, we will finance the Central Arizona Project, and I don't care if nobody ever finances those Colorado projects, because I'm not going to help him. And so Mo said, Well, why not? So that's what we did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1383.0,1794.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was was Congressman Aspen all irritated with you? He. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1795.0,1799.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not really, not really. And unfortunately, he was defeated in the next election. I don't know whether it had the authorization, had anything to do with it or not. I hope it didn't, but it was he lost, and that was a good Republican year. 1968 was so but Clint Anderson, senator from New Mexico, also put his order in. He wanted a dam authorized as part of the cap on the upper Gila in New Mexico. Okay, it got to, it got to be weighted down with port, but it didn't found her, and as a matter of fact, much to everybody's surprise, we got it onto the floor and with a rule waiving points of order, and it was adopted by voice vote. Never. There was never a recorded vote in the House on the Central Arizona Project,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1800.0,1859.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: backing up just a step, 86 Congress, I believe, is when Congressman Tabor of New York asked you to join the appropriations committee. You talk a little bit about that, but this appears to me to have been in terms of the upcoming battle a few years down the road, the fact that you were on the Appropriations Committee played an important role, as well as Stewart being in Secretary of the Interior, Senator Hayden, the occagenarian, with all the connections and all the influence being there that all this work together, but you're you're joining the Appropriations Committee, and at that was that when You left the interior committee, yes, what was the decisive? What was it? I'm not sure the cap was the reason you did that back then, but, but what was the was there, was there a personal reason for you leaving interior and joining appropriations? Well, one of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1860.0,1911.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: them, one of them was, of course, Stu was only approved on the interior committee and and I felt that, realized that if we did get the authorization, it was going to be very important to have somebody on the proper subcommittee, which was public works on the House side. And frankly, Senator Hayden was getting older, and it was possible he wouldn't be with us at that particular time. So I had, I always did, have just a little bit of a guilt complex that I had defeated John Murdock because he was in a position where eventually he was going to get that authorized, at least, he going to get it out of his committee and and I felt that I had to do it and and frankly, I did talk to Stu about it, and he said, Yes, I really think there would be a good thing to do. So I did. And John Tabor, well, the thing that had happened was that I had tried to get on the Ways and Means Committee. In fact, Joe Martin had promised me that I could get on the Ways and Means Committee. Well, Joe Martin, bless his heart, was getting senile, and he was just not doing his job as a leader, and I decided I'd be for Charlie Hallock. Well, Joe Martin knew that then so did Dick Simpson, who was the rank and Republican on Ways and Means. And instead of getting on Ways and Means, they took Bruce Alger from Texas and put him on in the place that I would have had. So John Tabor was for for Charlie Halleck, also John Tabor, who was the rank Republican on the Appropriations Committee, and I am satisfied that John Tabor was incensed that they had treated me the way they had. And he called me. I didn't call him. He called me and said, Would you accept an appointment to the appropriations committee? I said, Yes, I certainly would. So it was very fortuitous. And sometimes, you know, I think all of the, all of the way things like that fell into place, the good, the good Lord, might have had something to do with it all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=1912.0,2055.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, did you and did you and Congressman, you'd all frequently have meeting sessions, strategy sessions, and where you discuss strategy? Oh, yes, absolutely. And these would have taken place sometimes in your office, sometimes in Mo's office, or just","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2056.0,2068.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: off on the floor. On the floor, a lot of things are done behind the brash rail on the floor of the house. And Mo and I were very close. We talked about strategy frequently, and we, in other words, we just didn't have any secrets from each other, as far as Arizona was concerned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2069.0,2093.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And in that, in that, in that stretch run leading up to 68 you know, when. When Senator Goldwater was was out, was not Senator because the presidential run, Senator fan played a pretty active role. Oh, definitely. Also, and would those meeting sessions have often included him or Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2094.0,2111.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yes, but not always, because Paul had never been in the house. So as far as strategy over on our side was concerned. He, he would have been a NEO fight, but we didn't keep any secrets from him. He, he was very much a part of the team.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2112.0,2128.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And but as we, as we approach toward 1968 Arizona has some other congressmen have joined the delegation. There's a third district created, and I believe Duke center,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2129.0,2140.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Duke was elected in the 62 and Sam Steiger was elected in 6466 I forget which, but when the ships were down, it was Sam Steiger. He was he was very helpful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2141.0,2161.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And did center and Steiger get involved also with you and Mo in these, in these meetings, as they join Congress or and as we didn't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2162.0,2170.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: exclude him, but, but no, he had a different committee, and at that particular time, and he was a freshman and and then a sophomore, I think, leave Duke served two terms. And, you know, we were glad to have him, because he had his friends on the Democratic side and, and he was helpful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2171.0,2198.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: More jump back a little bit, I made a note here, in 1954 there was a Bracero bill, Bracero that had some implications, you know, for the Arizona as well as some other states in the southwest. I think also, could you talk a little bit about was the Bracero bill? Was Stuart involved? Or hadn't he not arrived yet in Congress. I don't think he'd arrived yet in Congress when he went to Bracero. That's correct. So what exactly was the implications of the Bracero bill in 54 if it was some controversy, this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2199.0,2230.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was the bill which allowed growers, especially to sign a contract, and that would give them permission to go into Mexico and recruit labor to come back to the United States to harvest crops and do mainly agricultural work. And they were called Braceros. And the course our agricultural industry in Arizona, you couldn't get help. There just was not available and and this was the only way that they were able to stay in business. So it was important that we renew the Bracero bill. It was about to expire, and I was sort of taking the lead on it. I realized, strangely enough, that although I was a big city boy, I was the only Republican in the West that that had anything to do with agriculture, because the this the state was, was largely dependent economically on the proceeds from the agriculture industry. So I made my speech on the floor of the House, and then I went back behind the Brass Rail standing there, and I smoked. Then I was I lit a cigarette, and then all of a sudden I heard coming from the gallery, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop pop. Like, like, when you back in the old days when you would light a chain of firecrackers and they would go, pop, pop, pop pop. So I looked up there and realized that this, something amazing was happening, because this flag had been flown out, and it looked there was green and red and so on. So I think that must be the flag of Mexico. And then I heard a ricochet that was a familiar sound, and so I hit the deck right fast, and that was when the several of the members were actually wounded. And it actually was a Puerto Rican nationalist, not Mexico. Actually. It had nothing to do with the Mexican with the lepros arrow bill, but it just happened that it was that that was the day, and we, we first were blaming Mexicans, but we shouldn't have it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2231.0,2378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: turned that's what flashed through your mind at first, was there in relationship to the Bracero bill? Was there? Was there opposition in Arizona, or was it, was it understand the growers? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2379.0,2392.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the yes, there was from, from the agricultural unions, Cesar Chavez Union. And they were very much opposed to it, and really shouldn't have been, because they must have known that they didn't have the labor supply to actually harvest these crops. And if we hadn't gotten the Braceros, the crops would not have been harvester","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2393.0,2415.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and so the fact that the Phoenix Valley or growers and Arizona growers, this would also could include growers down by Casa Grande also, yeah, so on. And there was a real, there was a real labor shortage. Then in terms of growers could not find the people. And I understand when, when the crop has to be picked, yeah, you have to have the people to do it. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2416.0,2435.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: part of the part of the deal that the Department of Agriculture made was that they would that the grower would try, at his very best, to employ people who live and live in this country, or citizens. And in fact, they made them advertise at a certain time, certain place, they would have trucks ready to take people to the fields to work, and they just weren't able to get them and so that those three numbers arrows were very welcome. Mr.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2436.0,2472.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Rose, I think I'm going to stop for a second, because I think my first side of my tapes about to run out, so let's, let's take a break, and we'll just stop for a sec. All right, so ending of side a,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2473.0,2482.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: all right, would you now I could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312#t=2483.0,2485.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270312/transcript/78632/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/632/original/azu_ms396-033_side1_a.vtt?1744914399","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/632/original/azu_ms396-033_side1_a.vtt?1744914399"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 4 - azu_ms396-033_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2263.848,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/313/original/azu_ms396-033_side2_a.mp3?1744847874","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2263.848,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, I wanted to go back into the 50s again. We left off with talking about the Bracero bill. There was another issue that came up, and you can correct me if my time, if I believe in the 50s or early 60s, in relation to right to work legislation. Could you talk a little bit about the right to work legislation. I know this became somewhat of a political hot potato for Mo. I think at one point in time, can you talk a little bit about your involvement in right to work legislation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1.0,32.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, after World War Two and after the Republican 80 of Congress, which is when the Taft Hartley Act was passed. There the AFL CIO really went all out to try to repeal Taft Hartley, in general, and particularly that part of Taft Hartley which made it possible for the states to have right to work laws. In other words, it indicated the preemption doctrine. The federal preemption doctrine, as you know, is that the that part of the Constitution, which says that if there is a conflict between state and federal and the Constitution state laws in the Constitution, that the Constitution and the federal law would be supreme. So anyway, there were all these efforts on the part of the AFL CIO to repeal that. In the meantime, Arizona adopted a right to work law by initiative and and it was, and I think that was in 1948, or 50, I forget which, and it was not only adopted, but two years later, there was an issue. Initiative offered to repeal it, and it failed. So Arizona was a right to work. State still is. And the Democrats, of course, were in favor of repealing the whole TAF Harley law, and this, particularly the part having to do with the right to work, I was a target, certainly because of the fact that I was on the original board that put the right to work law together and got it done, and the organized labor was helped to get me practically every election until the Central Arizona Project came out, came up, came about, and after the Supreme Court decision in which it became apparent that Arizona had rights to the water, the people who were running organized labor in the state said, there's no reason to waste money on this guy. Let's just leave him alone. And after all, he's going to be important in getting the money for the cap, and that means jobs for us from then, from then on, I had very little problem as far as re election was concerned, and I'd imagine that mo being as important as he was, probably the people who will actually, I think by the 60s, right to work was not as much of an issue as it had been before. The unions would still like to got done away with it, but I think they realized that they were spinning their wheels. And so in other words, I don't think that the Right to Work was as much of an issue for mo as it had been for me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=33.0,224.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You don't, you don't recall any specific conversations you had with with Mo or Stewart about right to work legislation. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=225.0,230.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think, I don't think we would have brought it up","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=231.0,238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo. Mo Udall is known for his legislative record, not exclusively, but certainly very strong on a wide range of environmental issues, one sort or another. Do you Do you remember any specific conversations you had with Mo about certain environmental issues, certain bills or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=239.0,261.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no? The main things I recall would be wilderness areas and things like that, which were very important in the 60s and 70s. And in fact, we several laws were passed, affecting Arizona and setting out wilderness areas. And Mo was very much involved in that. And I was to, I was, I was in favor of the wilderness areas. I think there were one or two that I was a little leery about, because they were in areas. That were high for water production and and I think the central Arizona, the solar project was worried about some of them so but mainly that is what I recall, the thrust of legislation, and especially in the interior committee in Mo's tenure,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=262.0,326.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were there, were there any ways in which you influenced mo or Moe influence you on environmental or wilderness issues, in terms of notes, no specific memories of conversations relating to no","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=327.0,338.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we we might very well have had some conversations about the the coal fired plant at page and but I don't think that we would have been on opposite sides. The The interesting thing about that coal fired plant, of course, is that it was put there at the practically at the request for the conservationists, because it was going to provide the electric power for the cap, which otherwise would have been at bridge Canyon. And they, I'm sure they that many of them feel that they bought a bad bargain when they when they did this, because there was some thought that the smokestacks coming from the page plant had something to do with the deterioration of The air over the Grand Canyon, and therefore the capability of people to see the beauties unobstructed by the particulates from from a plant like that so, but I Don't Recall that we had any, any conversation","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=339.0,422.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: about, specifically about that, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=423.0,424.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: now that later on, after I so long after I left Congress. In fact, this is when Jay Road, Jay and Moe were good friends and gone along extremely well there, there was legislation involving putting scrubbers on the page plant. It cost something like $200 million to do it, but nevertheless, it was done, and the the main issue was that the prevailing winds through the Grand Canyon would have had a tendency to to have the particulars from page go east rather than west into the canyon. But that that didn't prevail. They they decided to spend the $200 million and put the scribblers up anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=425.0,479.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes during, during MO You, Mo Udalls career in Congress, Mo had, I won't say, a total unique way, but his own way of resolving conflicts, trying to bring consensus together. One of the tools that Moe used was his sense of humor, clearly over the years, Barry Goldwater characterized you, I think, was in the introduction to the book that you wrote. John Rhodes exhibited a rare capability to bring warring factions together. End Quote, I'm one of the one of the goals of the Udall Center at the University of Arizona is following on most footsteps, and you know, is environmental conflicts in which they try and deal with Do you have any comments on your approaches to bringing warring factions together or getting consensus? And Mo's way of doing it, Mo used his sense of humor, certainly, because that was one of the things he was known for you have any, just any thoughts on Moe's approach to doing that? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=480.0,543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Moe had a different situation than I did, because he was in the majority. He was the chairman of the committee. He had the clout that even the Minority Leader didn't have, and so he could not only use the humor, but he could, either by innuendo or by direct confrontation, cause people to consider his point of view, which I really didn't have, but his humor was, was absolutely wonderful and, and it was spontaneous. You could, you could just tell that his that brain, a bit was, was just grinding it out. It was very good. Incidentally, if you had. Haven't seen it, you should get a copy of the video of the Arizona State Society Meeting in Washington, where the program was conversation between Barry Goldwater and o u Dahl. It was one of the best and most humorous pieces I've ever seen in my life those, of course, they they were both from pioneer families, and they had memories, actually, memories which had gotten from their their forebears, about things that were going on in Arizona, the territorial base and the like. And one of the things that they chortled about was that Mo's grandfather or great grandfather, I forget which was put in jail in Prescott as a polygamist and the Morris, Morris, You Morris Goldwater was the mayor of Prescott at that time, Barry's uncle Morris. And the story is that in the dead of night, Morris Goldwater went down to the jail with the keys and said to Udall, you shouldn't be in this damn jail. Get out of here. So he did. And it was back in those days, I guess they did things like that with some, some impunity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=544.0,688.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I have, I have a copy of that tape. It is absolutely delightful. It really. Tape is one of those ones I sort of find myself watching it over and over again, and it's often it's a tape I often recommend to students. Instead, if you really want to sit down and get a good introduction to these two men, sit down and watch this tape. We talked a little bit about this before, but also this question is, you may want to have an additional comments to what we said before. On were there any environmental issues that you and Mo agreed on? We talked a little bit about some of the wilderness bills that you did agree on on, ones you disagreed on. And did party affiliations play any part in your positions on this at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=689.0,733.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Probably did. Probably did. I, of course, the as I call them, the radical conservationists, and that sounds like a majority of the term, but I don't really mean it that way, but it's more descriptive. But they were mainly Democrats, and I think mainly because that's where they got their support. And so I suppose that things like that, or issues that they thought were important would not appeal to me. I really don't have any particular thing in mind, but that's as a general statement, that's probably what would have happened","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=734.0,782.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then. Most of the wilderness legislation that came before Congress relating to Arizona in the 60s and 70s, perhaps with a few exceptions, most of that there was pretty strong support on the Arizona delegation for these that's correct, even though Moe may have taken the lead on some of these bills and so on. There was fairly strong support. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=783.0,803.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, he took the lead because he was in a position to do it. I mean, when your committee chairman, you've got all kinds of plowed into your committee jurisdiction and and he knew how to use it, and he used it well","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=804.0,817.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when we were talking earlier about the various people that were involved in the final push for the cap. You had mentioned, we mentioned, in the course of talking, you know, some of the congressmen who came in later on, Duke center, and Sam Steiger, I recall, and I can't remember the specifics about this, I didn't make a note on it, but I recall there was some, was there some problem towards the final push here with it, with it, with an additional bill that Sam Steiger had pushed forward, or something relating to the cap. I recall Senator Goldwater mentioned something about it when I talked with him, and I can't remember was, was, was there something that Sam Steiger had done with it, with a different bill to cause some problem toward the end.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=818.0,861.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, no. Actually, I think what you're thinking of is that when Sam Steiger ran for the Senate and was defeated, incidentally, a John Conlon that was in the corner of the primary and and I told that they hated each other really, and I never did quite know why they were both in the state senate at the same time, and things that happened then, I believe. But I told him that one of you was going to be nominated and will be defeated November and will probably lose both houses, both seats in the House, and we almost did. And. But anyway, Sam Steiger, after he his defeat, he came back home, and he started immediately doing silly things like shooting asses, mules, or whatever they were and and one of the things that he did was a complete reversal. I never quite could understand it. He started blaming Stu Udall and me for selling out Arizona to California, because he said that we gave in to California too much on the priorities of water in the event of a scarcity. And we probably we did after all, but it was necessary to we were looking for support where we could get it, and California had been against the Central Arizona Project, until the Supreme Court decided in favor of Arizona, and that was about the time that we were then moving in for the authorization thing and finding opposition from the ones who had previously been our allies, the Coloradas, the utahs And New Mexicos. And hey, we were looking for support, and we didn't sell out to California on anything that was that we thought, and I still think that was important, but we did agree with them, and I think that probably the court would have upheld their position anyway, because of the doctrine of first and right, first and used first and right, and it provided that if there was a shortage in the river that the central Arizona project would not be would be Last on the river as far as the the shortage, this disposition of the shortage was concerned and, and we said there's going to be any shortage because upper basin isn't going to be able to use its water. We couldn't say that out loud, but that was exactly what we what we knew and, and at least for many, many years in which, and probably so many years that by then we will be able to get water from other sources if we need to do it. So that that was what Sam was doing. And I think he was mainly doing it to attract attention. And yet his reputation as a radio personality or whatever, and we don't meet each other very often,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=862.0,1072.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that that that Senate primary race against that he ran against Khan, was a very acrimonious, so just awful, and was turned out to be politically a disaster for the Republican Party, absolutely because, if my recollection is right, Sam won the primary and then proceeded to lose to Dennis de Cassini. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1073.0,1092.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: absolutely true. He won a battle and lost a war, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1093.0,1096.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then Senator De Cassini was in the Senate for three terms, that's right,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1097.0,1100.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: although he said he wouldn't run for more than two nobody believed it, including me,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1101.0,1109.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you had mentioned just a minute ago when you were talking about the Central Arizona Project. Again, at some point, I think it was a little earlier than 68 and I think it was Stuart Udall that had introduced this idea. There was a something called the Pacific Southwest water plan, in which they, I believe, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, they proposed to pump water from the Columbia River and bring it down. Can you talk a little bit? Do you remember much about the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1110.0,1136.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think Stu had anything to do with that. That was an engineering firm in Los Angeles, I believe, and it was there, there was this idea that we would pump water from, I think, from the Snake River, and bring it down into the Southwest Arizona and California and and actually the scoop, Jackson, senator from Washington, before he would let the after that came out, before he would let the people, the Senate passed the Central Arizona Project authorization. He put in their provision that for 10 years, there would be no action taken to the anti water out of the Columbia River Basin. And so that's that's in that that was in the bill.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1137.0,1192.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So that never really was a viable No. It was a no. There","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1193.0,1196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: wasn't. There's another one that we could. Really thought of, or people thought of it was to reverse part of the flow of the Yukon and to bring it down into the West. And the way to get in order to get support, at that time the Great Lakes level of going down because of the lack of rainfall for several years drought. And the idea was that this tremendous amount of water something like 20 million acre feet a year, if you bring it down into the United States, and then part of it would make a neat left turn and go over to the Great Lakes, then the rest of it would be it would go right on down to California and Arizona and into Sonora and and the they were the engineers had it worked out so that with hydroelectric power, there were quite a few water drops in along the line, you would be able to to pay for it in the long run. I never believed it myself. But of course, the conservationists were up in arms about that, because you're going to do all sorts of terrible things to the ecology of the Yukon basin and to the capability to support the wildlife that was there, and they probably were right, although there's a lot of water that goes down the Yukon and goes into the Arctic Ocean, and nevertheless, if you cut the flow to to a degree that would have been cut, you would certainly make some big changes in the ecology of Alaska.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1197.0,1297.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I had, I had never heard of that one before? Did? Did that they actually had feasibility studies that were done. No,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1298.0,1304.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think it had any, any except another engineering company had done some work on this. And I don't know how they were financed, but they were not publicly financed. At least I don't believe they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1305.0,1316.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were. But this never emerged as as a serious alternative issue. It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1317.0,1322.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was reasonably serious at the time because, as I say, there, there was a great fear that the great lakes were really going to dry out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1323.0,1332.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: These, those two other plans. Did you and Stewart and Mo talk about those at all? Or, Oh yeah, from time to time to time. But they never been sort of chortling, yeah. Well, they sound so grandiose, in a way, and that even more grandiose than the engineering feats that built the cap, I mean, when you're changing river courses, let alone in the Canadians to agree to it. But they never, those. Never proceeded beyond discussion, really,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1333.0,1359.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, and you mentioned Canadians, and that's one reason that it didn't proceed, because Canada, the British Columbia and Alberta, were up in arms immediately. And so we knew that there was just no way that we could get the candidate to agree to it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1360.0,1377.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, that the Yukon scenario you just described. Did that have a name? Was it just called the Yukon project?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1378.0,1383.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Did it had a name? And I'm sorry, I don't believe I remember exactly what it was, but it was sort of a grandiose name, like the Western water project or something of that nature. But anyway, yes, it certainly did have an A","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1384.0,1403.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: looking back. Cap is done. It's accomplished. It's built. It's constructed. Probably, at least, in my mind, will be one of the last, at least for a while, the really large government, you know, projects. There were many, many large government projects in this century, many reclamation projects that benefited Arizona. You know, the Coolidge dam, the Roosevelt, Roosevelt Dam, but it sounds that the central Arizona project was really one of the last large federally, federally funded projects going to take place in reminiscing. You know, Senator Goldwater has said he had, he's had second thoughts about Glen Canyon. You know that maybe we shouldn't have done this. Mo in his book, had sort of, you know, second thoughts. I think people normally do that. Do you think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1404.0,1452.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: they were thinking about Marble Canyon? Yeah, not, not Glen Canyon. But we didn't build Glen Canyon, but we did build Marble Canyon, which is the Lake Powell Barry","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1453.0,1466.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Goldwater was talking, I think, in a sense, you know, he was one of the last people who floated down the, yes, you know. And so I think in later years, he had reminiscence about, well, maybe we should, maybe Glen Canyon should not have been done, you know. But I was just curious where I was sort of leading with this was, have you had any second thoughts about the central Arizona project in terms of, do you think it could have been done differently, considering, you know, some of the problems that have cropped up with it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1467.0,1491.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, not really there. There are problems some of the siphons and. I think engineeringly, they're perfectly okay, but they the construction was not as well as you wish it had been done. But things like that happening such a large project, the thing that was a great surprise was the the quality of the water when it got to Tucson or being used in and from what I understand, the chemistry of the water and the the water distribution system in Tucson are just there. They're inimical with each other, and nobody ever dreamed that that would happen, I guess. And we were, Betty and I were went down to Tucson when the water first was brought in to the water plant in Tucson. And I said, Boy, this is, this was the day we've been waiting for. I used to go around this country and usually trying to elect Republican members of Congress. But people sometimes would ask me about the Central Arizona Project, and I said, Well, the main reason we have it is because Tucson is the largest city in the world completely dependent upon an underground water supply. Well, that does make sense. Well, there we were, and there was the water coming in, and now it's going to take a lot of scientific know how, and probably some replacement of pipes to make it pull a pool. As far as the household use is","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1492.0,1606.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: concerned. Mr. Rose, you do? You think it's a in reading some of the earlier, you know, earlier documents about, I think you know these are coming out of Congress in the late 60s, as a project got started on with the finishing of the project. Some of the customers who they anticipated have not turned out to be there. I think they thought there would be more agricultural use of the water. And as far as I understand, yet, some of the agricultural use has not manifested itself to that extent because it's too expensive, right? Is there some way that that can be worked around. I'm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1607.0,1644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: going to get a drink water.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1645.0,1647.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Take a break a sec. Okay. Mr. Rhodes, when we left off we were we were talking about some of the anticipated users of CAP water back when the bill was being authorized and the various parts that were being built, agricultural use has not materialized. You know, to the extent I think perhaps you or mo or Stewart thought it would, and I think probably one of the driving forces at the water farmers find the water too expensive, that's great. Is there any way that will be remedied. Or do you think that the cap will continue to function more as a, you know, support for people's homes, and you know, residential use as opposed to agricultural use? Well, the cap","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1648.0,1690.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: will be mainly used for municipal and industrial water. And that became apparent way back in the early 60s, if this was likely to happen. Because, as you say, the Well, two reasons. One is that when we were trying to sell the central Arizona project, one of the areas of resistance came from people who said, you're going to use that water to produce products that we're paying subsidies on anyway. We don't need it, and we don't want it, and we don't want you to use our money in growing more of it. Well, then we were able to say, well, but you know, the cities are going so rapidly, and you got to have water for people, and so anyway, it turned out to be a break. As far as getting the project authorized was concerned, the there is friction between the agricultural interests and the city interests the agricultural interests, in order to use the water profitably, have to have a subsidy. And the subsidy, naturally, is coming from prices that these are charged to the city residents in lease, and it is not popular. So But then, of course, in order to get the Central Arizona Project authorized the space the state had to enact a groundwater code, which he says, in effect, that Central Arizona Project water will be used, among for other purposes, but mainly in order. To cut down on the pumping from the underground storage of water. And so that is that that is the law, and that's the way it's done. And so as a result, I think that the only reason that agriculture has not sunk lower in respect to the economy of Arizona that it has is because of the capability of the farmer to do a better job and grow more the produce and products from the supply of water that he gets than he had before. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1691.0,1838.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: also, I think part of it too. I really appreciate hearing your comments on this. The economic position of agriculture in this state, and the economic position of mining industry in this state has greatly changed from today, going back 5050, years, the percentage of money that they bring into the economy, the business, all that has declined to some degree. New kinds of industry are coming into both Tucson Phoenix industries, adult any bear, any relationship. A lot of them in the electronic industry, computer industry, which you know, are sort of characterized as so called Clean industry, which in fact they are. I mean, there's not nearly the environmental problems. Mining and agriculture, you know, have been in declines. You know, they're not eliminated. I'm not trying to say that, but they certainly have been in the have been in declines. Do you? Do you think the changing economic picture of Arizona is is going to affect, you know, the water, the water usage. I mean, simply that most of this water will be used, perhaps for other things and what it was originally designated for,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1839.0,1901.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: absolutely is already having that effect. But you mentioned pollution from the so called Clean industry. That's true as far as the air is concerned. But there are a lot of pollutants going into the underground water aquifers that are devastating, and that's something that the state has to be very careful about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1902.0,1922.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: after the authorization was achieved on the cap in 68 as you said earlier, that was just that wasn't the whole battle. That wasn't the check. But between 68 and during the rest of the time that you were in Congress was, I believe, you retired in 83","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1923.0,1939.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: yes from Congress. Could you talk a little bit about","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1940.0,1945.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: battles in the intervening years? You know, once the big battle was done with and there's a wonderful, there's a wonderful photograph, I think it's of you and Senator Hayden and Mo and Stewart toasting with glasses of water. After, after, I think was after President Johnson signed the bill and so on. But could you talk a little bit, were there other battles in the intervening years, you know, to continue the financial? Author, I think it's basically the financial the money to pay for it, the continuing building is that, as the thing was built down to Tucson, could you talk a little bit about between 68 and, you know, the early 80s? You know, the other other battles that may have occurred, the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1946.0,1982.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: first one, and this has something to do with the Indian pen wash, which is important to this area. And I was, at that time, I was ranking Republican on that public works subcommittee and and there was $20 million in the budget to build a concrete ditch right down through the middle of Scottsdale to take care of the flow of the Indian bend wash. And I got a call from the mayor of Scottsdale, but Tim's good friend, John, I don't want your we don't want your $20 million I said, Well, what are you going to do about the flow of Indian law? She said, We don't know that. We don't want a concrete ditch going right down the middle of our beautiful city. I said, All right, you better hire an engineer and figure out some way to take care of the flow, because if you don't, it's you're going to have a tragedy on your hands. They did it. They came up with this green belt. And so I called his engineering lied home for some old time. I said, Are you satisfied that that plan will take care of the 100 year flood on the Indian bent wash? And he said, Well, John, yeah, I really am. I feel a lot better if there was some way we could cut about a 1,002nd feet off that, off that boat. I said, how would it be? Said, Well, it would probably, probably have to have a dike across Paradise Valley to do it. So I said, Okay, so I went to my good friend Stuart's successors. Say, Secretary of the Interior, Rogers, CB Morton. And I said, Roger, I'm going to put a million dollars in the appropriation bill for 1960 for fiscal 1969 and it's going to be for the central area. Owner project, but I wanted, I want you, I want to tell you how to use it. And he said, Well, what do you want? I said, Well, I want you to build a dike across Paradise Valley. And he said, what for? I said, Well, you're going to have to do it sooner or later anyway, because the canal for the cab is going to go right across Paradise Valley, and you got to have some way to keep that water from Indian bend wash, washing out the cap canal. So I said, I just want to do it ahead of time, because I've got this plan for the Indian bend wash and brush. Was a real conservationist. He really was, and so he was just take a look at John. This is wonderful. So that's, but that's the was the first money for the cap I put a million dollars over the budget into for the purpose of this ditch across paradise, a dike across Paradise Valley. All right, that was the first year, the second year, I put another million dollars in just because I didn't want to have a complete dry up. And I and I said to Paul Sanders, and you know, I don't know how long I could keep doing this. And what we need to do is to go to the Office of Management and Budget and see if there isn't some way we can get them to put money in the budget for the cap. So the two of us went up and talked to Roy ash, who was then the director of the Office of Management and Budget, and said, Roy, we just feel that it's necessary to have a schedule of future appropriations bear in mind, for a project like that, you don't appropriate a billion dollars. You appropriate what can be used in the next fiscal year and so on so forth. We need to have a schedule up to completion of the cap. And Roy said, Well, let me think about that a little bit. So about six weeks later, I get a call from Roy ash says, Could you and Senator fan and come see me? Yep, we sure can. We did. And he handed us this schedule for appropriations for the cab to completion. God, that's the last battle that it really was, because after that there was, there always was money in the budget, and if it's in the budget, why? You know, it's like shooting fish in a barrel here, nobody's going to be able to take it out. Well, it'd be very difficult to and they didn't try. So that that was, that was the last battle,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=1983.0,2256.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, I think our tapes about to run out, so I'm going to, I'm going to take a break again here. Okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313#t=2257.0,2259.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270313/transcript/78633/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/633/original/azu_ms396-033_side2_a.vtt?1744914425","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/633/original/azu_ms396-033_side2_a.vtt?1744914425"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 4 - azu_ms396-034_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2765.712,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/314/original/azu_ms396-034_side1_a.mp3?1744847877","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2765.712,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, when we when we left off, you had, you just finished describing your efforts to get the cap appreciations as a regular budget item. I believe, if my memory serves me, right, after President Carter was elected in the fall of 76 and took office in January of 77 I believe Wasn't there an effort on the part of the Carter White House, or some threat of rescinding of funds that caused, at least from some of Moe's comments and some of his letters, caused great concern. Great concern is what it caused? What acts? What was President Carter trying to do? What happened? What happened there? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1.0,37.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: there at one time, there was real danger that the cap would be brought to a screeching halt, and it was mainly caused by opposition from from conservationists and from the Fort McDowell Indians. The the project called for construction of a rather huge dam, the confluence of saltier River, and I'm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=38.0,66.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: sorry, was that the warm Dam","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=67.0,70.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and the say the McDowell Indians didn't want any part of it, because it would direct their well, it would inundate their present reservation. And Stu and I knew that this could happen, and that if we were going to have the ORM dam, we're going to have to find some way to move the fort McCall reservation and on the the present side of anyway they we were, we're going to move it up the up the hill, and fountain, fountain hills where it now is. And we probably could have made that work. And then the fort McGowan would have had the concession for fishing, boating, etc, on this lake, which would have been very good for them. But in the meantime, the saw the McCulloch saw people arrange for an exchange of land whereby they would become the owners of that site where Fountain Hills now and Stu and I said, we can't have have this because if we if that happened, what are we going to do with the McDonald's? And so we let the agricultural secretary had the jurisdiction, because it was forest land that there were used, and I figured that we would be able to the former governor of Minnesota, who was then Secretary of Agriculture, was we, I just assumed that if Stu his brother, Secretary said no, that he wouldn't do it well he did. And so as a result, Secretary the President Carter decided that warm dam would have to come out. Well, a warm dam had to come out. Then we had no place for storage, which would allow the project to proceed on down to Tucson and and to store water, which was until it was needed for the Phoenix area. So that's when they they brought up another plan, which, well, in the meantime there, there was actually a movement to just scuttle the whole project. And Mo and I asked for a hearing in the Department of the Interior, and we went down, and there were people who were in favor of doing it because of the project and the conservation pole. And there were two bald eagles involved in this that there were the bald eagles had a nest in a cottonwood tree along the banks of the Purdy River, and it would be inundated by the waters of one dam. And that was a cardinal sin. You can't do that to those two bald eagles. So that was one of the reasons why that was the dam was undamned so, but we, we were able to convince the departments that I know you mustn't do that. There got to be another way. And but so anyway, one of the hearing officers. Members of the department said to me later, I had not known him before. He said, I'll tell you one thing, Mr. Rhodes, if I ever am in trouble, I want the firm of Rhodes and Udall. So I guess we did a fairly, fairly convincing job and making sure that the project did go on. And so the thing that happened was that they used Lake Pleasant for the storage, which was necessary to make the project work, and terribly expensive and expensive to operate, and ORM dam would have been the way to go, but we finally had to give up on it. In fact, my remark was, all right, I'm not going to build a dam at the arm site, but I'll bet my grandchildren do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=71.0,352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that. That then was, was really the last real, real threat to the continuation of the building of the CA, because once, that, once the arm dam controversy, had been settled, and an alternative found, you know, from 1977 78 on, it pretty, pretty much, proceeded on, reasonably, on schedule. I mean, there were obviously cost overruns, like there always is on this project.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=353.0,378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's right, it was, it proceeded on schedule. And the the only thing was that the N that I've always presented was that the project cost so much more than it had to cost. But again, you do if you if the big picture was that we had to get it done, and if we had to do it in a way that we didn't particularly like, we would still do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=379.0,408.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were there any reasons if the cost Rose was just as it took so long to do it, and just costs went up over time, and inflation, inflation and labor cost and materials cost, all that sort of Rose, because this wasn't something that was built in one or two years, or was not it took a long time, no jumping. Jumping back to a little more, a little more general question, given the long public service you and Mo provided the state, would you say that the two of you contributed to a common, enduring Arizona approach to policy making? And if so, what do you think some of the features of that approach might be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=409.0,444.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I'd like to say that we contributed to something that was last, that lasted, but some of the antics that we're seeing are present state government. Make me wonder if maybe somebody's going to have to reinvent the wheel. We thought we had invented it once, but it's well, some, sometimes memories are short. And I really, I really do think that that Mo and Stu and Senator Hayden, Senator fan and Barry Goldwater, and I'll put myself in there that they say we were the golden age of Arizona as far as representation in Congress is concerned. And I've got to admit, you know, it's itself, it's it's a self serving admission, but I'm going to admit it, and I think it's true, and it's remarkable that a state this small was able to do all of these things because of the caliber and the the seniority of this congressman. And it's, I say it is remarkable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=445.0,523.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And I think one also tends to forget, too, that in addition to the people you just mentioned, we also have, you know, two distinguished jurists on the Supreme Court from the state who have both been there a long time. And sort of, considering Arizona's population compared to other states, the record is Trent remarkable members,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=524.0,540.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and both of them very good. Yes, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=541.0,550.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Wanted to talk about another topic, the Vietnam War. Did you and Mo ever? Ever discuss issues directly relating to Vietnam War? We","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=551.0,559.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did we did. I'll tell you. Moe and I were both in the beginning, really defending President Johnson and the conduct of the situation in Vietnam in Trent. To remember exactly what it was. Probably in about 1966 Mo, decided that he was not going to support the Johnson position. I didn't believe him. I stayed there. But during the time that we were both supporting it, we were invited to go to the Sunday evening forum in Tucson, and I guess it's still in operation. It's been there for years and years and years. And we debated two liberal members of the University of Arizona, the faculty and and Mo and I took we were shoulder to shoulder, or helping Linda and I understood what he felt he had to do, because if he was going to make a creditable run for the presidency, later on, he had to do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=560.0,641.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were you surprised in the fall of 67 when Moe made that speech? He made, actually, Mo made a speech which he broke with President Johnson, yeah, yeah. And that was actually done at the same forum, the same Sunday evening forum series in Tucson. Was it later? Yeah, in 19 six, in the fall of 67 Yeah. Were you surprised when Moe publicly, publicly broke with the President. I was we were talking earlier about some of the wonderful reg Manning cartoons that you have in your study. There's a wonderful reg Manning cartoon that was that appeared in the Phoenix paper that the day after Moe made his speech, you know, and had Mo and in the corner at a desk was Stuart, who was Secretary of the Interior, trying to explain to the White House what was going on. But reg Manning reflected the thing very, very interestingly. But were you surprised when mo went public? Had you had and you said you had had conversations, you know, about this before,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=642.0,690.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: or Well, we had lots of conversations before, when we were preparing for that Sunday evening, for the earlier one, yeah and yes, he he didn't let me know that he was going to do that, but no particular reason why he should. It was, as I say, I think he just was preparing himself for some sort of a run for the presidency, and he felt that he was on the wrong side.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=691.0,716.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You had mentioned, you had mentioned in your book, I believe, one of the things that you in thinking back about things that happened earlier, you had mentioned there, I think, concern about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, something that you voted for, that most of most of the Congress did. There was some opposition, but it was pretty, pretty overwhelming vote in support, single digits. Could you talk a little bit about your your second thoughts about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=717.0,741.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the second thoughts occurred after I read the second the second page it, and I hate to admit this, but it happened to a lot of people. The the the language in that that second chapter of that bill was so loose that under that President had carte Marsh to do about anything he wanted to do is in Southeast Asia, and he did then. I don't believe that very many of us thought that we would end up with 525,000 soldiers in Vietnam. You know, Dwight Eisenhower, who was sort of my patron saint, as you can imagine, was importuned by the French to help them out. In the end, being food, and he agreed to send some material, and I think some people to help them figure out how what to do with it. But he said, I will never get American troops involved in a war in south in Asia and and he he was very firm on that. But when, when Jack Kennedy came in, he Jack almost immediately started sending more material and more people to help him figure out what to do with it to the South Vietnamese. This was after dan ben foo, after the French had left, and so that's when the Vietnam thing really started. Because when Ike left, he only we had about 600 and some people there, and Kennedy brought up to about 16,000 Well, after, after Kennedy was killed, he actually, Johnson, really like that. There's an interesting thing. I don't know whether this is something that you really want, but nevertheless, I made a trip to really around the world with the Foreign Operations subcommittee, the appropriations committee. And that time, the money that was going into Vietnam was appropriated as it for as foreign aid. And so when we got to India, I kept saying the chairman, old auto Passman, bless his heart. We've got to go to Saigon. And he said, No, it's not on the schedule. God's not on the schedule. So the Chester Bowles was the or Ambassador to India, and he had been a member of the House, and so I said, Chester, this is ridiculous. We're appropriating billions of dollars over there, and we're in the area and we're not going to go there. And he said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, I think that nobody else is going. I will go. And he said, I think you should. So he made arrangements for me to just leave and go to Vietnam. And I did. What year was it spent Mr. Rhodes, this was in 1960 when was Kennedy assassinated? 60 it was 64","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=742.0,942.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: after President Kennedy staff, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=943.0,947.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: because that's, that's what I want to what I want to show you. I, I did. I went by myself, and the I was met by the lowest ranking officer in the embassy. He wasn't even sure what I was doing there, or whether he was glad I was there and I the little French and so I was reading the paper the next day and and said that there was to be a memorial service for President Kennedy, and that the ambassador, who was General Taylor? Max Taylor would be going. So I called this character. I said, I want to go with General Taylor service. So that's impossible. I said, Look, I've been pretty nice to you. Now you better tell General Taylor that I'm going with him, or I'm going to have your ears. You know, I was laughing at a sort of sort of laughing, but not really well he did, and Max Taylor didn't even know I was there until I was the best kept secret and and we had known each other for a long time. So he said, Sure. So we went. And it was an amazing ceremony. His fellow Buddhist, of course. And we took off her shoes and went, is this type of structure? A huge one. And we were there with the with these Buddhist priest in their saffron robes and chanting, and it was something I will never forget. And in in the middle of it was a huge picture of Jack Kennedy, and they were obviously here doing a nice thing for him, or about him, and we were the guests of honor. Interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=948.0,1065.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Jumping back a little bit, one of the long standing political problems that is in the state has been the Navajo Hopi land dispute, which has been going on for close to a century now, has involved many different members of the Arizona congressional delegation. Senator Goldwater has been intimately involved because of his interest in Native American. Could you describe your involvement at all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1066.0,1098.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the earth? I was never involved, and I didn't want to be involved, because they hated each other forever in a day and and I don't see any way to solve that dispute unless they solve it themselves. And certainly I didn't want to have any part in trying to put a solution on them that neither of them wanted, and so I just, it wasn't in my district, and so I just laid off","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1099.0,1127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when you you served in the House under a number of different presidents,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1128.0,1131.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not under we don't serve under Presidents. You serve with. We serve with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1132.0,1136.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I stand under President. I stand corrected. All right. I When you first went to Congress in 52 you know, President Eisenhower, President Trent, for 20 days, for 20 days, that's right. But shortly, shortly after President Eisenhower began, you know, the first part of its two terms. Could you any, any short, I'm looking, I guess, for short term responses, or just memory thoughts of President, Eisenhower, his style of operation, how you dealt with him, I know, was the person was important to you in terms,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1137.0,1172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yes, he was. And, you know, Eisenhower was never really appreciated by the media or by other people, because I think he took one look at the situation and decided what the country needed after the Korean War was stability. And he was very good at that. In fact, one of his strong points, and probably. Came from the service. The army was picking people around him who really were capable people. And one of the ones I mentioned, most probably is Bryce Harlow. Bryce was a very smart man and very capable, and so I also was able to because, I think during the war, he learned to know Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn. So their friendship went with that antedated the presidency? Well, the fact that he was able to get so much done by the Democratic Congress had strictly to do with his personal acquaintanceships and friendships of those two men, and I will never forget, this was a foreign aid appropriation bill, and it was always very controversial, and this was in about the third day of a conference between the House and the Senate, and it was just dead, locked like this over one or two points, and I left to go to the men's room, and when I passed got out the door, there was Lyndon Johnson. He was not a concrete he was a majority leader of the Senate, and he was talking to Bryce harbor, and I heard him saying he'd say, all right, Bryce, what can you live with? And so I went to the men's room, came back, but that time, Lyndon Johnson had gone into the room, to the conference room, and they had the whole had the whole thing worked out. But that was, I think, a fairly good example of the effectiveness of the Eisenhower approach. Republicans didn't like it because, you know, after all, we wanted to be in the majority. We didn't like it. But, and I was not a politician, he didn't want to be, and he wasn't. And a lot of us said, Well, you know, he's a great president, but when Nixon is present, if he ever is, we will, really will have a Republican president, and we're going to make this into a country with the Republican majority president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1173.0,1357.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Eisenhower is still looked on affectionately by people I grew up in a I grew up in a household that was, you know, half democratic and half Republican. That must have been interesting. Well, always was dinner time. Debates were always educating. You know, I think I'm probably a better person for it, but President Eisenhower, I think what we were trying to say was a leader, as opposed to being just about a politician. Not that the terms can, can't be together, but it's not a pejorative, right? But we had, you know, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1358.0,1389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he knew what the time was, and he knew what the country needed. They needed stability, they needed progress, and he just did what was necessary to get him","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1390.0,1404.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then we have President Kennedy is elected in the fall of 1960 takes office in January 61 Stewart joins the administration and Secretary of Interior. President Kennedy obviously did not serve his whole term out for reasons that we know, any thoughts or reminiscences about about the style and operation of President Kennedy, which is very different than President Eisenhower.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1405.0,1425.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, it was. And I have to admit that I was not a great admirer of President Kennedy, and yet, in some ways, I did admire him after his death. Well, as I told you, I was in Vietnam, and then I had been in other countries. And the amazing thing to me was this real, sincere sadness at the loss of Jack Kennedy. The it looked to me like the whole Western world was saying, this is a guy who can really do things for all of us, that we will have peace and and so on and so forth and well, unfortunately, it wasn't working that way, and they never did, but nevertheless, they still had this real sense of loss when he died. So I got to say this sort of like my feeling about Ronald Reagan. I think one of the worst things that happened to this country was the idea of the supply side economics, which caused the national debt to go skyrocketing. Up into the atmosphere, but looking at the other side of it, a lot of that money was spent on on defense and building up our capabilities and literally chasing the Russians over the cliff, as far as the economy was concerned. And I've never known whether they planned it that way or not, but that's the way it worked out. And the man at the head gets the he would get the blame if it hadn't worked, and he gets the credit since it did. So and So going back to Jack Kennedy, I I really had a feeling of sadness about his death. It wasn't that I really admired, his office, his well, is his program was, I thought, just so far to the left that it wasn't anything that I wanted. And actually, of course, it became the Great Society. All the great society was, was a reprise of the Kennedy legislative program. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1426.0,1565.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, I want to ask you about the presidential race that never happened, and this would have been President Kennedy had not been assassinated. Very strong possibility that 1964 he would have run against Senator Goldwater. Goldwater has talked a lot about this in his book. You know, there was Senator Goldwater in his book reflects very warm feelings toward John Kennedy. They apparently were close friends because they served in the Senate together. Senator Goldwater indicates he felt it would have been an interesting campaign, a very clear choice between two different styles of thought. Any thoughts on your part about that campaign that never, that never happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1566.0,1605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, just what you said. And really did feel that he, he could beat Jack Kennedy. And because he, he sensed that the country was moving rapidly toward conservatism. And as you mentioned, the the cleavage between Kennedy and Goldwater would become very apparent and and on. Conversely, after the Kennedy assassination, Goldwater did not, and I don't think he ever did, feel that he had a chance to beat to be Johnson, several reasons. One was that Goldwater would have done. He would have really won the south against Kennedy because of the difference of the cleavage, and couldn't against Johnson. Johnson had the name of being a conservative with the Conservatives and the liberal, with the liberals, and he felt that there was probably wasn't any way he could defeat him. And he definitely, he at one time really to know whether he wanted to go ahead with that race or not. And we there was a meeting in his apartment, and it was to decide whether he should enter the New Hampshire primary or not. He finally decided to do it, because we said, we all said, that if you back out now it's the tan amount to giving the election to Lyndon Johnson on a silver platter. And he said, I know you're right. So he went ahead and did it, did a bit, did his best, but a good soldier. I think he knew that he wasn't going to win. He'd have to leave the Senate, which he didn't want to do. But anyway, that's the way it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1606.0,1721.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: happened. Any of your Senator, Gore, you know, lost the election as we know, President John Lyndon Johnson becomes president. Any thoughts on President Johnson, as we are sort of talked about President Eisenhower. We talked about President Kennedy. Any thoughts on your part, on the style of Lyndon Johnson as a politician. I mean, he's been called the politicians politician.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1722.0,1744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He sure, he sure was Lyndon wanted to, he wanted to control. There was no doubt about it. And let me illustrate by little vignette. I was asked to do a piece on the Nixon administration by Boston College Thomas Beale and the old chair were doing it, and so I agreed to do it. And after it was over, a cute little girl in the back said, Mr. Rhodes, what do you think President Johnson would have done with those tapes? And I said, Well, now I really never thought of that, but I'll tell you what I think you would have done. I think Lyndon would have called the the the government print. Office and half had them make 1000 engraved invitations to the world's largest barbecue. And when it was done, he would send one to each member of the Washington press corps and each member of the House and Senate. On a give given day, they would appear on the South Lawn. And when they were all assembled, the President Johnson would go out, and he would say to his military aid, wheel out the tapes. And when they did, he would say, dump them here. Where is the gasoline? Where is the match now? Where are the hot dogs? And I really think that that's exactly what he would have done. He he knew how to get his way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1745.0,1849.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: President Johnson makes a decision not not to run again at the time, I remember across the country a bit by surprise. We Richard Nixon comes back into the picture and runs against, you know, Senator Humphrey in what turned out to be fairly close. Yes, it was very close election. And as I recollect, Senator Humphrey Closing the Gap toward the end","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1850.0,1874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: one more week, and it might have been different. One of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1875.0,1877.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the, one of the things that you said, and I'll ask this question, is sort of the lead into this, one of the this. One of the things that you had mentioned in the book was one of the most difficult things that you ever had to do was was coming out of the Watergate and having to go talk with with President Nixon. Could you talk a little bit about that, just sort of in the context of your thoughts and feelings about President Nixon's role as a president, his leadership abilities?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1878.0,1899.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, this paper that I mentioned that I prepared for Boston College, I dictated it. When it was transcribed, I read it, and I really thought that I was being very tough on President Nixon. I wasn't. I was I was sort of chronicling the things that were that he had tried to do and couldn't do because of the Democratic majority, and the things which he did and and I came to the conclusion myself, after reading my paper, that I have said that this man was the very effective president, and my, in my opinion, he was his problem was personal. He he just he had this paranoia, which caused him to insist on the wagons being circled almost any time. And it's you, it's us, against them, and so on so forth. And I think that is what caused the whole Watergate thing. He had a he really had a thing about leaks from the White House and and we all did. We'd have a meeting of the Republican leadership and the Cabinet Room, and next day, Jack Anderson would have a column about what was said and quoting verbatim, he quoted me several times exactly the way I said it. And of course, that really upset. Well, I think that that's when John Mitchell sold the president the idea of putting the plumbers, which was, that was the beginning of the end. He put this group of plumbers together who were kind of weird people to begin with, and they just Mitchell, or whoever was in control, almost control of them, and and then Nixon made this terrible mistake of saying, well, after all, they're one of ours, and so we'll just have to defend them. And if he had said, I am absolutely embarrassed, I will apologize the American people for this silly thing that was done to the Democratic National Committee, and I want you to know that the people who are responsible are going to be found and punished and will, like Al Gore said, I'm not I'm not proud I did it. I'm never going to do it again. And if he had done that, he would have served on his term, the people, people would have said, well, you know, it really was pretty stupid, but it's not that part. It was not an impeachable offense. It wasn't. But anyway, that's, that was the that was the downfall of the Nixon administration, his own paranoia about leaks to begin with, and then the idea of they're my people, and I'll do whatever is necessary to defend them. And you Stonewall, and you Stonewall, and it all had a. Up to build on top of each other, absolutely. And of course, the the real smoking gun was that tape that where he told Bob Haldeman to call the CIA and have them call off the Watergate investigation that told him that it had the FBI call off the Watergate investigation on the basis of national security. That was the, as I used to say, if you were a professor in law school and you wanted to put a question in the final about, about, in other words, the obstruction of justice. Excuse me, about obstruction of justice, the question would probably look a lot like the tape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=1900.0,2153.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That must have been, personally, a sad day for you when you had to go had the meeting with Nixon and personal, personally, it must have been a sad","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2154.0,2160.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: day. We we had campaigned together and done all sorts of and I had great respect for his capabilities. He he was probably as good a geo politician as anybody I ever knew. Back people used to say that Nixon was fortunate to have Kissinger. I said, Yes, that's true, but you know, KISTER is fortunate to have Nixon too, and they were a great team.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2161.0,2188.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: President. Nixon leaves office, and a long term colleague of yours, Jerry Ford, becomes president. And you had served, I don't remember the exact number of years, but you certainly have been in the house together for for for some, for some time. You know, prior to the time he was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2189.0,2205.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think he's been there for four years when I got there,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2206.0,2210.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: thoughts on Jerry Ford's performance as president during the time period he was there. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2211.0,2214.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Jerry did a great job to begin with the his mission had to be to restore confidence in the presidency, and he did. He did a reasonably good job of that. His main mistake was, in my opinion, pardoning Nixon when he did. He could have waited, and this is a political statement, but he, I feel he really should have waited until after that election of 1972,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2215.0,2247.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 7676 Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2248.0,2250.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, 74 there's a congressional, congressional election before Right, right? And that if, if he had, and had asked some of us, Hugh, Scott me and others, and maybe a few Democrats, I think probably Sam Ervin would have done something about it, to start saying, you Know, do you really want to the president to be in the dock the former president like a common criminal. Do you? Do you really think that it's important to the country that this Watergate thing be continued, or should it be over with? And I think that by the middle of the next year, maybe the first part of the next year that you would have had the country at least saying, well, maybe it would be all right to kind of forget this thing, get it out of the way. But the people of this country don't like to be surprised. And and the way he did it, it was a really, a big surprise. And he even he didn't consult anybody, as far as I know, at least nobody on Capitol Hill, and I had a terrible situation. I i had been with him in Philadelphia at the 150th anniversary of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2251.0,2340.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: the convening of the First Continental Congress, I guess so 200 and we were sitting side by side, and I said,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2341.0,2354.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'm gonna I've gotta go threes. I need a foursome. Would you come along? I'm not sure like to, but I'm going, I have to make an announcement, and so I think I better concentrate on that. I said, Am I going to like it? And he gave me that Jack sober Jerry Ford book. I really hope so. John. So anyway, I'm playing Burning Tree. I finished the nine holes, and the COVID said, call the White House immediately. I called the White House, and they told me about the pardon. And you can imagine what I did on that second line. I paid my my debts and left. Upton and drove home, and as I turned the corner there, I noticed on my front lawn, NBC, CBS, ABC all lined up waiting for me, and so I had to do they said, Did you know this? I said, No, but I'm not surprised I was. But so I said, I think he felt that this was time to get this behind us and let the country go ahead","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2355.0,2428.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and cost him the election cost him the election cost Jerry Ford re election,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2429.0,2432.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and it cost us 30 seats in the house.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2433.0,2436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: We're almost up to 76 and I want to break for a second. Were you surprised in seven, I think was late 74 when, when Mo Udall announced that he was going to seek the presidential nomination of the Democratic Party? You know, for the 70s, for 76 did that kind of surprised you when mo made that announcement? No, not really. Had he talked with you about it at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2437.0,2457.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: He didn't have to. I mean, it was pretty obvious what he was doing. And in fact, we had talked about it, as I mentioned, sort of, well, Mo, when you're present, give us the key to the White House or something like that. So no, I knew what he had in mind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2458.0,2477.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You mentioned in your book that you sort of, I can't remember the exact quote that you secretly sort of were rooting a little bit for mo behind, behind, yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2478.0,2485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: because I didn't like Jimmy Carter, and I saw no reason to change my mind about that later on. It isn't that I didn't like him, I just didn't think that he was presidential material.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2486.0,2497.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo finished, as we know, you know, second to Jimmy Carter in 11 or 12 different primaries. You know, you know, if he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2498.0,2502.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had won that Michigan primary, he would have been nominated a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2503.0,2507.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: few votes one way or the other, a few of those primaries, Moe probably would have been, I think the Democratic nominee. I suspect that Moe, as a Democratic nominee, as Jimmy Carter did, would probably have beaten Jerry Ford. What kind of a president do you think it was very speculative now, because Moe never had that chant, but, but based on on your serving together for a long time, and his abilities as you saw him, what kind of a president would have mo made,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2508.0,2533.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think Moe would have been a good president. I probably wouldn't have agreed with all the things that he would do, but nevertheless, he had the capability to get people around him who were not only intelligent, but capable of action, doing, doing things. And I think that's that's the way he would have operated as president. And I'm sure that he would have wanted to do a lot of things that was in the way of Conservation and Natural Resources and so on and so forth. But mo really wasn't an ideologue. A lot of people think that he was, but he really wasn't in that he was what I would call, and this is almost a contradiction of terms, but I'll say it anyway, a pragmatic ideologue. He there are certain things that he would like to do, but I think he was wise enough to know that the fourth dimension, and the very important dimension, is time and things that you might do today would be wrong, but if you wait until tomorrow, they might be right. And and I think he had a pretty good sense of timing,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2534.0,2611.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rose, you think Mo's experience, as, you know, as a legislator, by the time the presidential campaign came around, 76 Moe and served for 15 years in Congress, and you know, had this ability to bring consensus, bring people together, people of bearing views, and often was able to come out with a compromise bill, you know, and Mo had an ability to do this on a number of different issues. I mean, my impression is, and do you think that would have stood him well as president? You know that ability to work on both sides of the aisle. I've watched videotapes of debates between Mo and one of his long standing antagonists on the interior, Don young of Alaska. Those Those two are as far apart as you could ever see, but yet there was still a civility that was present there between the two of them, even though there was a lot of mutual respect too, even though they were way far apart. Moe doesn't win. Moe goes back and continues his career in Congress. Jimmy Carter is elected president, and he thoughts on Jimmy Carter's four years as president, his good points, bad points, abilities, as you've been talking along.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2612.0,2679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, as I mentioned, I was not an admirer of Jimmy Carter, and I'm still not he. He, unlike Mo, he had people around him who shouldn't have been around anybody. In my opinion, some of them were all right, but the ones that. That I remember the best were substandard, say the least, and Jimmy Carter didn't seem to have the capability to understand the economy, because, as you recall, we had an inflationary period where the prime rate went up to something like 20% which I never could quite understand. And the Miller was the chairman of the Fed during most of that time, and why he let that happen, I will again, I will never understand. So I guess I've got to say that it was ineptitude in aptitude reigned supreme in the Carter administration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2680.0,2748.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Jimmy Carter loses his bid for re election in 1980 to Ronald Reagan, whose presidential campaign. A lot of groundwork was laid for that with Barry Goldwater is running 64 I don't give any doubt about that. And Ronald Reagan served two terms.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314#t=2749.0,2751.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270314/transcript/78634/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/634/original/azu_ms396-034_side1_a.vtt?1744914465","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/634/original/azu_ms396-034_side1_a.vtt?1744914465"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 4 - azu_ms396-034_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":1567.704,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/315/original/azu_ms396-034_side2_a.mp3?1744847880","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1567.704,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So when we left off, when we left off, Mr. Rhodes, we were, we had sort of talked a little bit about President Carter, and I'd ask you about, just some of your summary thoughts about about the two terms of President Reagan's eight years as president, you know, in terms of his abilities, accomplishments, sort of along the same line we've been talking, you know, just sort of some of your thoughts about summarizing, you know, his performance as president. You","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=0.0,22.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: know, in many, in many ways, Bill Clinton reminds me of Ronald Reagan, the I remember who it was coined the phrase Teflon Ron because things might be not doing so well, but nobody blamed Ron, and it's sort of like Bill Clinton, but nevertheless, I think I've already mentioned that he certainly ran up the national debt, but the fact that one of the reason, one of the things that happened because of that, was that the the evil empire, which he called went belly up, was an important factor and and I would imagine that history will judge Reagan not because of The national debt, but because of the demise of the of the evil empire. So I think he will go down history as a very successful president. Again, he had the capability of getting people around him who could do the job very smart. Some of them went a little haywire. But you know that happens if you, if you haven't, if you, if you go to bad enough times, you're going to have some bloopers. But yeah, and he had his share, but, but all in all, I think that he'll go down in history. He'll have, he'll have a good reputation","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=23.0,125.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: at George Bush.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=126.0,128.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: George won one election because his opponent really was not very capable of putting himself across the country and and he lost another one because he wasn't very capable of putting himself across the country. I don't have any any problems with the things that George Bush did. I think more I have wondered whether it's just why he didn't do some of the things he didn't do, but I would, I would give him a c minus, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=129.0,172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And we've sort of, we sort of brought ourselves up to Bill Clinton. And I thought your comment a few minutes ago was extremely interesting about, you know, similarities you sort of see between between Bill Clinton and Ronald and Ronald Reagan in terms of, I guess, from what I heard you say to people very adept at public relations,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=173.0,196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Absolutely, and I don't think Reagan thought he was. He thought of himself as being a great communicator, and he was. But I and of course, Clinton is a fine speaker too, but I think that Clinton really with malice of forethought plans his moves in order to have the success which he really wants to have, the he's he's an egotist, but I don't know how you'd be president united states if You're not. And so that's not by way of criticism. It's just by way of explanation of some of the things which he which he does. I wish him the best i i do feel that he has committed himself to getting the budget into balance and committed himself to doing what is necessary to preserve Social Security and things like that and high end, and hopes that the Republican Congress and the Democratic President will realize that the people elected them in order to do things and not to snipe at each other. And I think I see it happening. I think that Trent lock will be an entirely different type of leader than Bob Dole was, and I don't say that as any you. As anything, not praise worthy of Bob Dole, one of my best personal friends, but, but Trent has a way of doing things and getting things done that I admire. I've known him for a long time. I knew him when he was a Democrat","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=197.0,317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 94 the Republicans took control of Congress for the first time since you you were there. And you'll have to give me the year, because like 5062 5253","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=318.0,330.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was when we were sworn in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=331.0,336.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: from 94 to 96 you know, there was, there was a lot of controversy. SPEAKER The House, Gingrich was involved with a lot of controversy. There was a lot of sniping and real animosity each other that seems to have changed a little bit. And I want to sort of tie this in, because I think what reminded me this was the comments you just made. Senator Lott's leadership skills seem to me to be very different than Speaker Gingrich, although they're very good friends, oh, yeah, yeah, but,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=337.0,366.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and they served in the house together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=367.0,371.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Lot doesn't necessarily need the public eye as much as Mr. Gingrich seemed to be at certain times. He works behind the scenes. He meets with President Clinton. There seems to be an ability there to come together. Come together on certain things the Democratic Party, and President Clinton certainly has, in terms of some of the Democratic platform, has come closer to issues that have been at the heart and soul of the Republican Party for many years. He's stolen","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=372.0,393.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the issues, yeah, Republicans and, and again, with malice of forethought and, and I think he's very wise to do it. He recognized that the tide was running in that direction, and so he just got on his surfboard and rode with the tide.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=394.0,410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And I'm assuming Mr. Rose, you, I think, would judge that to be very smart politically, yes and totally and help reelect him. No doubt. Now we, we find ourselves in a situation where there's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=411.0,424.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: actually what he did was to leave Bob Dole without, without the issues which a Republican would think he would have and and so Bob had to do some things, or thought he had to do some things which were not like Bob Dole and not really like the mainstream Republicans. This business of I'm going to cut your taxes 15% and I'm going to balance the budget. You know, that was just like the old story. There ain't no way to get to the post office from here. And it I really think that that cost dole credibility, which really allowed Clinton to come in, in spite of some of his personal problems, and win that election.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=425.0,474.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Right now, we're looking at a situation that we sort of experience daily on the news, whether it's the television, the radio of you know, there seems to be one scandal after another emerging, you know, and one day, it's something relating to the President and the campaign. The next day, maybe something relating to some aspect of the Republican campaign. Are we going to be able to move past this? Oh, I hope so. And how much of this is motivated by partisanship now, and how Mr. Rhodes, would you advise people, if you were asked, how do we move beyond this, to them to, in other words, to the Democrats, the Republicans, to Trent Lott, to President Clinton, working together for a balanced budget in the next year. You know, working toward a bit to get a balanced budget. How can we move in that direction when people are continuing to snipe at each other, you know, on every little issue, it seems like, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=475.0,524.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: some of the issues are not little, like the campaign contributions from foreign nations and things like that. You know, I think if I were president Clinton, I would just make a bold statement, this was ridiculous. It shouldn't have been done. If I had known it was being done, I would have stopped it. You might have a little problem with that, but anyway, and just to say it isn't happen again on my watch. Yeah, that would have a lot to do, and then go to the Republicans and say, Now, let's get this behind us. I've said this now. What else do you want me to do? And go with that, because I think it's up to him to clear, clear the air and to take away the desire of Republicans to and it's a very natural one to make political Hey, there's some of the mistakes that people have made in His name. Him. I don't know any other way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=525.0,607.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think at this point I'm gonna gonna shut the tape off, per se. You.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=608.0,632.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I there, I think we're, I think we're running again now, okay, after our technological problem is solved, when we left off, Mr. Rhodes in what we were taking a break there in the late 1960s Moe made a very startling challenge by running against John McCormick, then Speaker of the House. Can you have some of your thoughts and memories about about Mo's challenge of speaker McCormick, and I realize that the Democrats control Congress, and you were sort of, I suspect, a an interested bystander to some degree. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=633.0,676.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: correct. Of course, the Speaker of the House is elected by the caucus or conference of the majority party. And in other words, when the house actually elects the speaker, the Democrats vote for the Democratic candidate, and the Republicans vote for the Republican candidate. And if the the one who loses becomes the minority leader and the other one becomes the Speaker of the House, and John McCormack had been the speaker for quite some time, and even those of us on the Republican side realized that there was a pretty good sized segment of younger Democrats who were not pleased with with John McCormick and probably want to replace him. And the person who finally decided that he would take the plunge and and try to replace John McCormick was was Mo Udall and the I don't really know how many votes he got, but he lost overwhelmingly. But the sequel to that story is interesting, because some years later, of course, Moe cranked up to run for the presidency, and his hardest, hardcore support really was in those same Liberal Democrats and on the on the House side who had been those who imported him and supported him when he made his is obviously you obviously ill fated run against John McCormick. I don't think Moe ever intended to win. I think he was looking ahead and realized that there was a segment of potentially powerful people who felt, who felt as he did about the issues, and that by doing this, he would become the leader of the group, and he was, and it was a very interesting decision, which he made","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=677.0,808.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when that election took place, you know, for the speaker, when Moe made that challenge, everything was done strictly along party lines. Oh, yeah, so you could not have voted for mo if you wanted to, or could you have? Could go, Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=809.0,823.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I could have, but it would have been the unthinkable. I would I would have been castigated and exiled and all those terrible things by my party. And I've done that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=824.0,833.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So basically, when those kind of votes took place, it was strictly along straight party, line, absolutely straight party and the recent situation, not a parallel, but the recent situation, with the problems that Speaker Gingrich had with his close re election because of some of his, I guess, lack of a better word, tax problems. Again, still the same. Is this a strictly a, pretty much a partisan party? Oh, yes, party vote.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=834.0,862.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: The the consequences of anybody who broke the line on that vote would be unthinkable. He would he would be forever out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=863.0,874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's not one where you exercise your independence. There may be other areas, but no indeed, about a year and a half, I believe what","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=875.0,880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you do is exercise your independence in your own conference or your own caucus and and of course, that's where mo lost. He in the Democratic caucus, because when the actual election for Speaker took place on the floor of the. House the Democratic caucus had nominated McCormick, and all the Democrats, including Mo, you to all voted for him. They had to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=881.0,909.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did mo talk to you at all about that? About no running even informally, he didn't talk with you about that at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=910.0,916.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: No, you don't do that. Good friends as we are. He's a Democrat, I'm a Republican, and there are times when we have to understand that about a year, you know, we have, we never did campaign against each other, except one year this before mold was running for president, he called me and he said, John, I got to tell you something. I am going to make an appearance with your opponent. He said, I think you know why and and I'm sure you understand. And I said, Oh, I know why, and I understand. And so just to show you that I have no hard feeling I'm going to make an appearance against your opponent. And we did So anyhow, that it didn't bother us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=917.0,968.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That reminded me of a I think there's another anecdote you had earlier in your book. You know about, about, about being political opponents, but, but also, but also close friends. I think Wasn't there a similar situation with yourself when Senator Hayden was asked one time about who he was going to Yeah, I don't know if this was your second election or your third election, but it was probably my third What can you tell me that story?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=969.0,989.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, he he always went by train, and when he went back to Washington for a session, he didn't come home until the end of the session, and when he came home the before the next election, he was met at the depot by the people from the press and Senator. There's an election for governor. Who do you support? Well, I'm a Democrat. I'm going to support the Democratic candidate. Yeah, well, what about the election in district one? And he is sort of walking, he said, I don't have a comment about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=990.0,1031.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So that was, that was as close to an endorsement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1032.0,1034.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It absolutely was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1035.0,1038.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: after mo lost the race to speaker about a year and a half later, it was late 70 early 71 He tried again to run for majority leader, yes, and I believe it was against Congressman Hale Boggs, my recollection, I be interested your thoughts on this. My recollection is that mo thought he had a real chance to win that one, and that there was much more so than than the when he challenged speaker McCormick. You recall?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1039.0,1065.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't recall, but I think that's true as a wide open seat. I think that by that time, Carl Albert had become speaker, John McCormick had retired, and Carl had become speaker, and in on the Democratic side, it's a ladder. You just go up, up up, and that's it. We Republicans are rambunctious. We we break in every now. And in fact, when I was elected minority leader, I was elected over the whip who had been a whip for 20 years, and good old boy, good friend and all that. But I, I'm the one who got elected, but Democrats don't do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1066.0,1109.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mr. Rhodes, when we totally talked earlier about some of your abilities to bring people together, I sort of wanted to talk a little bit about something I hadn't thought of before when we were talking earlier. So we'll go back in time a little bit. You chaired several Republican National Conventions. That's correct. Were you the chair of the 64 convention, when Goldwater was nominated? What? What years had you chair? Did you chair? The","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1110.0,1131.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was, I was the chair in 76 and 80 difficult job. 76 was a mess, just a mess, because that was the one where Ford finally was nominated over Reagan, and the Arizona delegation was almost solidly for Reagan, and Ford was one of my close friends, and I was solidly for Ford, and I had some problems along those lines, but I guess they finally forgave me","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1132.0,1169.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that a difficult job, though, chairing the convention. I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1170.0,1172.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it can they can be this one was because the the Reagan people were doing everything they could to make Ford look bad, and they I remember, especially when the platform was up, they had lost their positions in the platform committee, so they were opposing the platform. And now. Offering amendments and so on and so forth. And the hour got later. We were supposed to have had speakers who were pretty good speakers, but we lost prime time. In fact, we just kept going and going. And finally, it was one o'clock in the morning, and I was told that the North Carolina delegation was going to offer an amendment which was the same amendment, which was in a snide sort of way, saying that Ford's foreign policy was not successful, and they were going to do it before adjournment and going to demand a roll call vote on it. And so I said, you know, this is really stupid. And so i j Rhodes was my son, was my aide, and I said, You go down and see if you can find Jesse Helms. I know Jesse was in the National Committee, one from North Carolina, and I had known him from the boulder years again, and so he got brought Jesse up. I said, Jesse, I understand your chairman is going to offer this amendment and end of annual roll call vote. I said, Jesse, we're looking bad enough as it is, but if we have a roll call vote, we're going to have to send out the sergeant at arms to get people out of bed and get them to come back to the because we don't have a quorum here. There's no way. And we can't adjourn without a quorum if the if the point of order is made. So I said, I hope you can talk him out of this. And he said, John, how good is your eyesight? Because it's fairly good. He said, can you see 100 yards pretty well. I said, Yeah. What about 150 I said, Well, it's not all that good. He said, I think that this podium is about 150 yards from that North Carolina delegation. So I said, I think I understand Mr. Alex. And so sure enough, when we finished debating on the amendment that was then on the floor, I called for the vote and I said, the ayes, have it without objection, the the platform is adopted, and the motion reconsider is laid on the table, and the the session without objection, this session is adjourned, and they tell me, Well, I do it. This chairman of the North Carolina delegation back there screaming his ears out and waving his batter and all that sort of stuff. And the then I was asked, Why didn't you write? I really didn't see him. And so Jesse Helms told me later, he said, John, in some parts of North Carolina, you're still known as blind. John. Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1173.0,1382.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Lord, that's a wonderful story. I sort of wanted to finish up Mr. Rhodes in the 60s, when you and Moe were in Congress, Mo. Mo had a reputation and had written a great deal about, you know, political reform. You know, reform of some of the old rules and in the house and stuff. Some of there were changes that occurred in the 60s and into the early 70s that made things more open. I'm just curious about your, your thoughts about political reform back then and some of the political reform that has been proposed today, such things as term limits, any, any, just any thoughts on, on some of the changes that occurred back then,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1383.0,1420.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not, not really, except that the changes I think you have in mind were in the way the Democrats picked the delegates to their convention. And that, frankly, is the reason the government was nominated and and the Democrats lost the election because so they, they, they just out, reformed their own party, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1421.0,1441.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: within the house itself, were there some important changes that came out of the 60s in terms of the rules? Nothing changed that much that same and what about the calls today for such things as term limits? What are your thoughts on term limits? I think that's the stupidest thing I ever heard of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1442.0,1460.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the particularly if you're from from a small state, imagine what would have happened the central Arizona project if we had had term limits, and Carl Hayden hadn't been there, I hadn't been there, and, you know, it would have, would have existed. We never would have made it. And and also, you know, after all this, the founding fathers gave us the mechanism for kicking people out every two years is, don't elect them. And, and what people with the term limits, and also the con. Constitutional amendment to balance the budget. They're two gimmicks. They're using the constitution to do something that they should have had the guts to do under the present situation. And they could have, they could, and they should. So you just hit an earlier vibe. I don't like either one of them, and I don't like the idea of using the constitution for a weapon,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1461.0,1523.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and yet, term limits have been an issue that has been brought up by members, some of the more conservative members of the Republican Party. You think it will, it's just something that's an issue that will fade away because there having been some state legislatures, because","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1524.0,1536.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it's because it's a phony issue. And yeah, I should they think it's a gimmick, you know? They think, oh, boy, the people will really like this. And unfortunately, they did, and a lot of them did. And I'm just not that kind of a politician. I don't, I don't like trying to do things by indirection, as you can't do by directly, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1537.0,1561.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think that's a good point to stop our discussion. We'll end that out with with our discussion of term limits. Okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315#t=1562.0,1564.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146512/file/270315/transcript/78635/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/635/original/azu_ms396-034_side2_a.vtt?1744914492","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/635/original/azu_ms396-034_side2_a.vtt?1744914492"}]}]}]}