{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/1j9765c40v/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["David Broder"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 1, tape 33"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Broder, David S. (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1999-03-05"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Washington D.C. (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with David Broder conducted by Julie Ferdon. Broder was a political journalist for the Washington Post who interviewed Udall on multiple occassions. Broder discusses details of Congressional races, specifically races that Udall was in."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.006 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with David Broder conducted by Julie Ferdon. Broder was a political journalist for the Washington Post who interviewed Udall on multiple occassions. Broder discusses details of Congressional races, specifically races that Udall was in."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 2 - azu_ms396-006_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2728.44,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/276/original/azu_ms396-006_side1_a.mp3?1744847765","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2728.44,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You. This is another in a series of oral history interviews that form the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good morning. My name is Julie ferdon. It's Friday, March 5, and we're in the office of Pulitzer Prize winning journalist David Broder at the Washington Post in Washington, DC. Thank you, Mr. Broder, for participating. I'm happy to do it. Let me start just with a little bit of background information. You were born in 1930 1929","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=0.0,26.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 1929","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=27.0,27.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and where? Chicago,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=28.0,28.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Heights, Illinois, okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=29.0,33.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You went to college at the University of Chicago, okay, and proceeded to get a master's degree. Is that correct, right? Then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=34.0,40.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: went into the army. When I got out of the army, I worked on the Bloomington, Illinois pantograph, P, A, N, T, A, G, R, A, P, H, came to Washington at the tail end of 55 worked for five years for Congressional Quarterly then five years at the Washington Star about a year and a half at the New York Times Bureau, and I've been here at The Washington Post since 1966","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=41.0,66.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, so journalism was your goal from the very beginning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=67.0,70.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yes, I wasn't at all sure you could make a living at it, but I've been lucky.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=71.0,76.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You're widely considered the dean of political reporting and analysis in this country. What got you into the political aspect of journalism?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=77.0,88.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I'd always been interested in politics. My parents were not involved. Nobody in the family ever was active in political party, but it was talked about a lot. And going to school in Chicago, which is a great political city, I heard a lot about it, and I was interested in journalism from the very beginning. So it was seemed like a natural area to gravitate to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=89.0,112.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: When did you first become acquainted with Morris Udall","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=113.0,116.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: when he came to the House of Representatives in 1961 yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=117.0,120.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what was your first impression? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=121.0,123.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I have to tell you, and this is going to be a problem. Probably throughout I'm not I've reached the age where I don't trust my own memory very well. He was not hard to spot. Obviously, one because most of us knew his brother from his years in the in the Congress, and Stewart was by that point of an important player in the in the Kennedy administration. And two, because Mo was so big, and I mean, he stood out on the on the floor of the House of Representatives. I cannot tell you that I recall the first time I sat down to for an interview with him. I don't have any clear recollection of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=124.0,171.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you in 1967 he was one of the very first members of Congress to come out against Vietnam. Did you by chance cover that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=172.0,183.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Or again, I would, I would need to, have to go back to the clips. I mean, I remember the event, but I don't remember is whether I was the person at the New York Times who wrote that story in the 60s? No, I would have been at the post in 67 my guess is probably not that. Probably one of our hill people wrote that that story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=184.0,211.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Would that be true also of his races for speaker the speakership with John against John McCormick. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=212.0,219.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: remember writing about that because I was doing a column by that point for the post. And I remember writing about the leadership race, both that one and the later race for majority leader. And what I remember particularly vividly was that I learned my lesson, which was that trying to dope out from outside what was going to happen in a congressional leadership race was a real fools game, because There were so many IOUs and so many unsettled scores that you never knew about, and with the secret ballot that it was, it was the most unpredictable arena of politics. I also learned because the column that I wrote when he was in the race for majority leader was a very column that, in effect, said, be terrific if this guy, Udall, won the race, that members of the House understandably don't appreciate advice from outsiders on something that they regard as their business and not your business,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=220.0,298.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that you. I mean, it was a fairly unprecedented move at that time, especially running against speaker McCormick, yes. Do you think that in any way hurt him in the house? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=299.0,309.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no question about it. Because, I mean, it was seen by, I mean, the house of those days, as as some people were recalling at the service yesterday, David Obi particularly, was a very hierarchical place, and you, you, you played by the old bulls rules, or they tried to take you out of the game, and that was running against the speaker was the ultimate act of defiance, and because they recognized that if you could knock off a speaker, then you could knock off anybody else there. So he paid a severe price for that, in terms of ever becoming a leader, formal leader, in the House of Representatives, but he was so good substantively as a legislator, and he had so many allies in what turned out to be a much bigger generation of members of the House that they couldn't squash him as they would have liked to have squashed him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=310.0,379.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I spoke to Stuart Udall, I believe it was soon before Moe's death, this last December, and he said he'd been thinking about a single word to describe Moe, and the word he'd come up with was audacious. Would that fit in your experience? He was,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=380.0,399.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah. He was clearly a risk taker. I mean, there's, there's no question about that, and but he also, you know, he also laid the groundwork for those challenges, whether it was in policy or in politics, he wasn't a Kamikaze, if audacious, suggests somebody who goes into a fight without thinking about what he's getting into. I think he he thought seriously about what he was getting into. But you know, ultimately, he did what he his conscience prompted him to do, and so he took on a lot of fights that he knew perfectly well were going to be very difficult to win.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=400.0,451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1971 he was the chief sponsor of the 71 Campaign Reform Act, which was the first real national attempt to limit campaign expenditures and contributions. You covered multiple campaigns, both before and after that act. What would you say the overall effect of the Act has been?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=452.0,476.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it's like almost every other piece of campaign finance legislation enacted or proposed, the targets that it defined, for the most part, it hit. And then over time, we found that either there were ways to evade some of the limits or that there were unintended consequences. The great thing that the 71 Act did was to bring the whole picture of campaign financing from the darkest dungeons where you couldn't look in, in on it, up into the place where there was a good deal of sunlight about it. We learned for the first time what the general dimensions were and what the sources and the destinations of a lot of that money was. That is a historic achievement. What it failed to do, obviously, was to limit the volume or reduce the influence of donors in this, in this system.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=477.0,547.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think, well, we can get I was wondering, to what extent you think that it affected the presidential campaign, but why don't we go ahead with that, with the 76 presidential campaign? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=548.0,558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you had a series of campaigns, I would say, probably from 76 through 84 some might even say up to 88 where the financial battlefield was substantially leveled by the availability of federal matching money in the primaries and by the provision of public funds for the general elections. From that point on, the clever people have been able to figure out how to take that money, pocket it, and then go ahead and raise a whole lot of other. Money besides, and obviously we've had the phenomenon of millionaire or billionaire candidates who who have raised the bar for what's spent in the presidential campaigns and forced others to be become very evasive about those, those limits. I would say it had a, least a temporary, salutary effect, and now is beginning to have probably more negative than positive effects. I think the $1,000 contribution limit has become a huge problem for lesser known, non celebrity, non millionaire candidates, being able to compete for the presidency, because the $1,000 is now worth about $200 in real money, And the task of raising what you need in amounts of that volume is just almost overwhelming. Call that one back","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=559.0,669.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: then, it's actually now having exactly the opposite effect of what it was intended to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=670.0,673.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: do. Instead of becoming an enabler of competition, it's become a real barrier to competition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=674.0,679.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's fascinating. Mo would be very disappointed during that. I think, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=680.0,684.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I would like to think that, since he was, you know, not only principal, but but flexible, that he would be among those who said, you know, if we don't do anything else, let's at least make the the $1,000 contribution limit a realistic contribution limit, and live it. Raise it to whatever 5000 or whatever you think it ought to be, which would have a huge effect for helping candidates like John McCain get into the game.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=685.0,713.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In 1972 when it was clear that Teddy Kennedy wasn't going to enter the Democratic primaries, I'm sorry, 1974 that November, 1974 Moe announced his candidacy for the presidency. That was a full two years before the election. Was that fairly unusual? Announcing that early","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=714.0,737.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was very unusual then. I mean, as you know, since then, somebody who starts only two years in advance is regarded as behind the field. But it was unusual then, but I remember talking with him about it at the time, and what he said, again, this is an example of his being audacious, but not Kamikaze. He said, I know perfectly well how hard it's going to be for a member of the House of Representatives who has no national renown, who's only run in one district in a small western state, to be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. And the only way I can do that is if I get started now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=738.0,783.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So it was more a matter of feeling like he needed to get in and start working then then preempting the field by getting in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=784.0,790.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think he had any notion that he was going to preempt the the the the field. It was, you know, even then, there was a lot of speculation about others running, and others, including people who, either because they were Senators or had run, you know, for previous national races like Sargent Shriver, were much better known names nationally than he was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=791.0,817.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So at that point of in time, in late 74 What did you think most chances were","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=818.0,822.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not great. I mean, there was no history of anybody going from straight from the House of Representatives to to the presidential nomination, let alone the presidency. And the other thing that was a factor in my mind. I mean, they were very different men, and their the role of religion in their lives was very different. But having watched the difficulty that George Romney, the former governor of Michigan, had had in his campaign in explaining his Mormon background, I also had in the back of my head a hunch that that this was going to, you know, this was going to take some some work on his part to explain who he was, that that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=823.0,868.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: might become an issue. Yeah, the next to announce in December 74, months later, was Jimmy Carter, then, well, former governor of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=869.0,881.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Georgia at that time, even though he didn't announce until 1974 My impression is that he was actively working since about 1972 for the nomination. Was that your experience or your it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=882.0,895.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was clearly that was. Clearly his agenda. I mean, I, I remember Carter telling myself and a lot of other reporters, when you change, you know, you all fly through the Atlanta airport all the time. When you're coming through the Atlanta airport, just give me a call. I'd love to just have you come over to the mansion and visit he was obviously at that point, thinking well beyond the borders of Georgia in terms of his campaign, and Bob Strauss spotted him his ambitions when Carter asked him, and Carter made the request of Strauss, not the other way around, to take the lead as the sort of informal chairman of the Democratic campaign in the midterm election of 74 he wanted an excuse to get around the country as his term as governor ended. And one, get himself introduced in a lot of places. And to pick up whatever chips he could pick up by helping other Democrats in what turned out to be a very good year for the Democrats. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=896.0,966.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: a wonderful opportunity. Yep, your colleague, Jules whitcover, in his book marathon, mentioned that that Carter was intentionally trying to keep his ambitions away from you in particular, because he he seemed to want to, well, my impression, frankly, is that he was a master at lowering expectations, and was afraid that someone like you would grab on to what he was trying to do before it was time","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=967.0,999.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was not, I mean, I remember reading that in Jules book, but I certainly wasn't aware of it at the time. There was a would probably have been in the winter of 74 I mean, like January or February, when the governors had their annual mid winter meeting here in Washington, I remember inviting three Southern Governors to a lunch here at the post with our you know the great Mrs. Graham and Don and people from the editorial page in the news side and the three governors were Ruben, as you of Florida, Dale Bumpers of Arkansas, and Jimmy Carter of Georgia. And if you had asked me, prior to that lunch, you know, which of these folks is like most likely to, you know, bust out of the state and become a real important national player. I probably would have put him in that order. Ask you first bumper second and Carter third, but Carter just took the play away from the other two. Amazingly at that lunch, and I think a lot of us leaving that lunch said, Ooh, this guy is, is there's, there's more here than we realized.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1000.0,1084.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: So it wasn't necessarily just Hamilton Jordan or Jody Powell. I mean, it was Carter himself. Carter was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1085.0,1093.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: a great salesman of Carter. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1094.0,1095.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was your impression of him","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1096.0,1098.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: early on? I thought he was, I mean, I liked him because he seemed, I mean, that was the period when we were all writing stories about the new South, that their elections had sent us a message, that the old racial politics was being put in the background. They were all talking about education reform back then, about lifting their states up out of the off of the bottom of all of the of the rankings. Asking was particularly impressive because he could talk about not just about Florida as a state, but Florida and the Caribbean and Florida and and and Latin America and the hemisphere and and so on. Bumpers was then as now extraordinarily eloquent and and Carter had talked a very good game as a reform governor of Georgia, when you have to remember, you know what he followed. He followed a bunch of SIGs who were, in many cases, also pretty corrupt there, and here was this squeaky clean guy who talked a very good game about how he was reforming the politics of his state. So I was impressed","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1099.0,1175.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: when after Carter announced and after mo announced and Kennedy was clearly out of it, there was more or less of a liberal stampede to run. Several liberals jumped into the race, including Harris Sanford, Governor Schaap of Pennsylvania, Sargent Shriver, as you mentioned, birch Bay. Okay, at that point in time, what were your thoughts of the chances of Sergeant Shriver, Fred Harris of Oklahoma, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1176.0,1210.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I thought Birch Bayh was the likeliest to emerge. In fact, I had a son who was my oldest son, was at the University of Wisconsin, and was kind of screwing around in school and not doing very much, and he was interested in in working in one of the campaigns and, and I thought, Man, my wife thought, you know, wouldn't be a bad idea for him to to take some time off from school, because maybe he'll be more serious about it when he goes, goes back to school. And he said, you know? I said, I'm, look, I cover these people. I can't, I'm not involved. I can't get you a job. That's not that doesn't go, but he's but I said, you know, if you ask my advice, where, where would, which one campaign I'd try to hook up with. I would tell you, birch by and he got a job as the first as a volunteer, and then they put him on, eventually, as a, you know, a go for, I don't know what he 50 bucks a week or whatever the hell they paid him on the thing. So that was my judgment, that birch pie, because of his labor ties and because he'd been a hell of a campaigner in Indiana was, was probably the guy who, who would would come out of that that group,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1211.0,1287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: he was probably the more seasoned campaigner of them all, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1288.0,1292.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: had been through tough campaigns in India","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1293.0,1295.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in the first real test of political strength, and was Iowa. Was the Iowa caucus in January of 1976 there, there was apparently a lot of debating, at least within the Udall campaign, regarding whether, whether New Hampshire was still the first real test, whether Iowa was now going to be the first real test. What did you think at the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1296.0,1327.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: time? I thought New Hampshire. In fact, I barely went to Iowa in 76 I think Jules was out there some for the for the post. But I did, which is not and I focused almost entirely on New Hampshire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1328.0,1346.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you so you didn't travel with him at all in Iowa? I may have","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1347.0,1352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we did a kind of an informal sort of division of labor here, as we always do. And I Jules. But Jules spent a lot more time in Iowa than I did. I may have gone out there once or twice when he was, you know, doing other things, but basically, I focused on New Hampshire in that cycle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1353.0,1374.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Apparently, also in Mo's campaign, there was a lot of debate as to whether, because of not knowing what the role of Iowa would be, how much time and money he should spend there compared to New Hampshire, and some felt strongly that he should sort of blow Off Iowa, and others didn't feel that way. Okay, in 2020, hindsight, seeing what happened with with Carter winning there, and having built up expectations to some extent for Moe, and building down expectations for himself or lowering them. In retrospect, do you think it was a mistake for Moe to have gone in there to begin with, or to have not, not have campaigned more strongly there. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1375.0,1423.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it's so easy, you know, there was, there were about 20 different points, I suppose, where, given the the narrowness of the of the of what turned out to be the crucial things, you would have said, he would have been better off to try to slow Carter down at this point, or catch him at this point, or try to find some way to beat him at this point. And Iowa was one of them. I mean, Carter got a huge lift out of Iowa, in part because Johnny Apple turned Iowa, almost single handedly, into a big national story in that cycle, for the first for the first time. And so Carter, you know, who actually my recollection is, ran second to none of the above in the Iowa","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1424.0,1468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: undecided. Exactly","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1469.0,1471.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was proclaimed as the great winner there, and clearly had that head of steam coming into New Hampshire then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1472.0,1480.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And as it turned out, Mo came in fifth below the undecided in that. What is it about New Hampshire, which was the next, next big test, New Hampshire primary? What is it about New Hampshire, the small New England? Date that so dominates the political scene to the point where it's at least seen as selecting our presidential candidates. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1481.0,1509.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: my smart ass response is that, you know, that's the way God intended it. I mean, you can look up in the Bible and find and you shall choose New Hampshire shall choose the president the serious answer is that first events are always important. I mean, why is the Kentucky Derby more important than the Preakness or the Belmont? Why was the first man on the moon a national hero? And nobody can probably tell you who was on the second mission to the moon? Firsts are firsts and we are, you know, whatever programmed, ingrained to give very great attention to first events and they they are have been, you know, over the years, the first time that people actually go to a polling place to vote on who is going to be the next president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1510.0,1561.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: If in New Hampshire, Carter ended up winning by 30% and Moe coming in second by 24% with by at 16 Harris 11, Shriver nine had Moe stayed out of Iowa and concentrated strictly on New Hampshire time candidate, time and money, you think he would have pulled out a win","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1562.0,1583.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: might have, but that's one of those things that I don't know how you, how you play back the history with, with, with that. I mean, it would not have denied Carter the momentum of a while of an Iowa victory, and it might have produced, you know, additional people or resources for New Hampshire for him, I think the thing that really caused him the problem was that the left of the Democratic Party, in broad terms, was was loaded up with lots of folks and Carter, because Jackson did not play in New Hampshire, Carter had the middle and the right and the New Hampshire Democratic Party is not, and particularly, then was not a particularly Liberal Party. It was, it was, you know, Catholic ethnic, very weak labor, organized labor element. And a lot of those folks were very comfortable with the more middle road to conservative message that Carter was delivering. So he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1584.0,1648.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was practically the only act in town for those people. That is right when you consider Harrison,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1649.0,1652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and he put on a very, very good, disciplined campaign up there. I mean, he was, at that point, there was a lot of novelty to him, and so people were were hearing this for the first time, and Carter was an enormously disciplined candidate. What I mean by that is just he would just deliver. He had been doing it for so long by the time he got to New Hampshire that he had his stump speech down to an exact formula, and he would deliver that formula speech if necessary, 12 times a day. He never deviated, he never cheated an audience. He was just absolutely relentlessly focused on delivering that particular message. And two years after Watergate, it was a very powerful message. You know that I am not a lawyer. That's my great disadvantage. I will never lie to you. I mean, those are things which, in a normal political situation, people would not say, well, therefore he ought to be president, because he's not a lawyer, and because he says he will never lie to it. But two years after Watergate, those things had enormous resonance,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1653.0,1731.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and he ran very much as an outsider in that scene, very much so an anti Washington","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1732.0,1734.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: campaign wishing to play well the fact that almost all the others had some tie or other to watch official Washington also was an advantage in that environment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1735.0,1744.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: My understanding is that the other candidates, Mo included, were getting somewhat frustrated with his refusal to hit issues head on. Had you noticed that in following him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1745.0,1757.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, sure. And it became, you know, it became a theme of the coverage of him, not so much in New Hampshire, but after New Hampshire and Jerry rafshane, who was making the ads when they got to Pennsylvania, ran exactly the same ads, but they put a little line at the beginning of the thing with a narrator saying Jimmy Carter on the issues. And then it was the same pitch, but it was they, they sort of tipped their hat to saying, you know, yeah, you ought to talk issues. So they said Jimmy Carter on the issues,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1758.0,1788.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that's wonderful. Did, did? Did Carter? There was a sense that Carter got better press coverage in New Hampshire. And the other candidates. Is that true?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1789.0,1803.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, better, if you mean volume Yes, because he came out of out of Iowa, you know, as as the surprise winner of Iowa. So in that sense, I don't think he got more again. I haven't gone back to look at the stories for a long time, but, but I don't think it better. Not I would be surprised if it was better in terms of more favorable, because, you know, my impression was that if you'd taken a secret vote among the reporters, Udall would have won hands down. Why is that? He was funny and he could fun to be around. Carter was never, you know, I mean, he Carter had a job he was going to do, and he recognized that having the press around was went with the territory, but he wasn't interested in making friends among the press. He was interested in doing something with the voters. And the longer he went on, the more tense that relationship with the press. He became a guy, if you want, if you're getting heavily into the Carter side of the thing, a guy you ought to talk to is Curtis Wilkie, who was the Boston Globe reporter on Carter now now lives in and works for the globe out of New Orleans. But Curtis is a Mississippian, and he had grown up with with wonderful sort of politicians like Jimmy Carter all his life. And those two, I mean, Carter couldn't, could never con Curtis, and because he never could con him, it just Curtis got under his skin like nobody else did, and he can tell you wonderful stories about what the relationship was between Carter and the and the reporter's government. That's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1804.0,1916.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: great. So you're saying among the press corps, at least by this time, Mo would have won a personality test against Carter. What about, what about a straw poll as to who they'd prefer to have as president at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1917.0,1931.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't know that the results would have been any different. I mean, you know, we didn't have a whole lot of basis for judging any of in terms of credentials for national leadership, scoop, Jackson probably was the, you know, the credentialed candidate. I remember hearing Moynihan, who was supporting Jackson, make a speech somewhere for Jackson where he talked about scoop having the charisma of competence. And Jackson had been a powerful senator and a really influential senator for a long time. And if there was anybody in that field who you know was presidential in terms of the stature that he had before the race began, it was Jackson","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1932.0,1977.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: that sort of moves us into the Massachusetts primary. Massachusetts is generally considered a liberal state and 72 it was the only state that went from McGovern and yet, Jackson won there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1978.0,1994.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Why was that? Because they had decided as a basic strategy they weren't going to screw around with Iowa and New Hampshire that they were going to put their marker down in Massachusetts, and they went in, there's real democratic organizations. I mean, that's a democratic state with a lot of democratic office holders who have real organizations in in that state. And they had gone in and signed up and in some cases, bought up a lot of that organizational support. And in a primary that turned out to be enough","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=1995.0,2028.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in Massachusetts, Moe tried very hard, from what I understand, to get, to get the press to focus more on the elimination of the liberal field, because that was it appeared what was killing him, there were so many people on the liberal side, and they were just taking votes away from each other and away from Moe in particular. Did the press pick up on that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2029.0,2053.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it was clear, I think, to us too, that you know that that as long as there were five or six folks on the liberal side of the party competing against there were two at that point, one in with Carter and Jackson, who were had positioned themselves as being centrist, things that the centrist candidate would win. And it was also clear by that point that Jackson, as a campaigner, was not in Carter's class, so that it was likely it was going to be Carter who would benefit from the fraction of the thing. But truth is, you know, you reporters don't decide when candidates enter or leave the race. That's up to the candidates and the. I mean, the the one power that the press has at that point is, you know, who do you Who do you cover? Who do you pay attention to? But it was hard at that point to since, since nobody from that side of the party had won anything yet to say, well, you know, he's a real candidate, but these other three or four or not,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2054.0,2122.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: it's it's interesting to me. I always have this question, who is manipulating whom when it when it comes between the press and the candidates? Yes, the candidates try very hard to play this game of lowering or raising expectations, lowering it for themselves, so that if they do well, everybody's, you know, they get more attention from the press and the public, and often raising it for their opponent, so that they, if they don't do as well, it's considered more of a defeat. Who is manipulating? Who everybody?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2123.0,2157.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean, it's, there's, I mean, the public gets messages from two sources, essentially, one from the candidates and two from the press. And so since public opinion, you know, as registered first in polls and then in primaries, is the determinant there. There is a just a constant interaction going on, and it's the answer to only answer your question is both","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2158.0,2191.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the next, the next primary was Florida, and Moe decided not to go into Florida to basically leave it to Carter for the purpose of knocking Wallace out of the campaign. He apparently later regretted that in retrospect, and thought that if he had gone in, he would have pulled away enough from Carter that Carter wouldn't have had such a clear win to give him the momentum that he had, what was your opinion? Should MOA gone in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2192.0,2226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: again? I don't know, and I didn't go to Florida myself that year. I was, I think, back, either back here or out in Wisconsin already. Okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2227.0,2237.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Jules whitcover noted that it was around Florida, so it seems that Jimmy Carter's temper started showing itself. Were you aware of a temper? Had you ever experienced it? Ever seen it? Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2238.0,2252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean, what Carter with? Those with those pale blue eyes you know would when you had done something or asked a question or written something that would just, you know, almost stare through you. I was at least speaking for myself. I was never verbally abused by by by Carter, but lots of times you get that just cold, implacable stare.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2253.0,2282.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I had heard that he could really come down on his staff hard sometimes is that anything you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2283.0,2287.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: were aware of, you heard that I didn't witness that. Okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2288.0,2294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Illinois was a non binding preference primary, which Carter entered and only spent, I think, four days and $130,000 or something, a pretty small investment, comparatively. Carter came in first, Wallace second. I think everybody else pretty much just ignored it. Was that a mistake? Do you think, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2295.0,2315.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: these questions about, you know, was this a mistake, or that a mistake? I feel not really comfortable with, I mean, it's because, just simply because it's, it's, I mean, well, two, generically, one, I don't think reporters are very smart political strategists. If we were, we'd be doing that work and so on. And second, you know, the temptation to pretend that you knew all the time, what was the better way to do it is so overwhelming that, I mean, it's, I just don't that's, I don't think that's very fruitful area for me to, at least to so many","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2316.0,2349.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: variables. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2350.0,2352.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: at this point in time, the interesting thing to me about what happened in Illinois, I and I did I was in Illinois, was that, again, this is mainly a Carter story, not a not a Udall story, but Carter's interests in Illinois were being managed by a man named Jim wall who was the it was, and is the editor of the Christian Century Magazine and a Southern Baptist minister himself, and he was drawn very early to Carter, because of the they came out of the same culture, and he understood Carter, in fact, helped me understand that aspect of Carter's background more than anybody else, because it's a long way from my own cultural background. I. But the remarkable thing that Jim wall was able to do was to build a bridge between the Carter folks who and Mayor Daley's organization, which turned out ultimately to have great importance, because when Carter began to run into trouble in the later primaries, it was the comment of Mayor Daley the day after the Ohio primary that it's over in Carter nominee, and we ought to all rally around him. That turned out to be very significant,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2353.0,2430.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: interesting, by the time of Wisconsin, which was, I guess, the next big test. Who were you covering? How was how was I spending","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2431.0,2442.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: most of my time with Udall at that point? Okay?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2443.0,2444.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2445.0,2448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think I The honest answer is, I can't remember sort of how we sorted it out. And it may have been that I just said I'd like to, you know, let me do this this week or two weeks with with, with Udall, and then while we'll switch the thing we did not post this never, least in the time I've worked here, done what some other papers have done, which is to sort of put a reporter, one particular reporter on one particular candidate from day one, and said, become the world's leading expert on this candidate. We have tended always to sort of rotate people around. So it wasn't that this was now a permanent assignment, but I did spend most of my time out there with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2449.0,2494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: with Udo. Okay, Wisconsin, again, as a was a traditionally liberal state, which Moe, I think had had really hoped to find his first victory there. Moe started his campaign there, I think early in 1975 Carter came in quite a bit later, but by that time, he had a lot of momentum. And my impression was that he worked very hard in Wisconsin to convince the press that he was an underdog there, Carter was, that Carter was an underdog there, so that that would amplify whatever he did were, is that something you you were aware of at the time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2495.0,2541.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I what I can, I think, genuinely recall, was that the feeling was that if there was any place where Udall, where the political environment was made to order for Udall, it was Wisconsin, because the Democratic Party out there was a pretty liberal party, the anti war credentials were going to be much more important to him there than any other place that he had run so far, and that the support that he had from members of the delegation, the house delegation, gave him a kind of a of a plausibility in that state that he hadn't had the same advantage, say in in, I mean, there was nobody like that in New Hampshire to vouch, vouch for him up there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2542.0,2599.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think the vote There ended up being","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2600.0,2602.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: an 8000 Yep, 8000","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2603.0,2605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: point. Now we","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2606.0,2609.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: had, we had about 150,000 papers at night that had had Udall winning because I was working at the NBC affiliate out there. And NBC called the state for and Richard Scammon, who was there an elections analyst, as somebody that I'd known for a long time, had absolute reliability with. And one of the hardest phone calls I ever had to make was called my editors here about a 45 minutes after we called, decided to call the state for Udall saying, I think we got a problem this. His leads really eroding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2610.0,2644.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Did you pull those papers, or were they ever","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2645.0,2646.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: so they were, I mean, they're, I think they exist. There was one addition. I mean, so it wasn't, luckily, it wasn't the big edition of the paper, but there one","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2647.0,2657.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: edition did get out, but you're aware of. Well, that was a real Heartbreaker, I think, for everybody concerned,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2658.0,2665.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: New York was, you know, the story, which I think was later authenticated, probably in Jules book, that they decided that they would not spend the money for one final mailing to the rural counties in the state the Utah people did, and that they later thought that if he'd done that last mailing that they had talked about, because he got beat in the in the farm counties,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2666.0,2692.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, there his book indicated, as I recall, that there was a they were trying by. Then Mo's campaign had gotten martila and Kyle involved professional consultants, and they really wanted to make one last big media buy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2693.0,2707.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Maybe it was a media buy not. They","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2708.0,2709.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: wanted to do one last media buy that they felt was critical. But in the whole process of that, that mailing got dropped, the mailing to the rural counties, I don't know that it was ever, you know, a decision made, we're not going to do it. I think that was a finance thing. And, yeah, and that, and as I you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276#t=2710.0,2712.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270276/transcript/78592/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/592/original/azu_ms396-006_side1_a.vtt?1744913124","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/592/original/azu_ms396-006_side1_a.vtt?1744913124"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 2 - azu_ms396-006_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":989.472,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/277/original/azu_ms396-006_side2_a.mp3?1744847770","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":989.472,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, all right, we're back on side B. We were just talking about the not getting the mailing out to Wisconsin, and the failure to buy media time and all around that time, there was apparently a fair amount of bickering in the Udall campaign headquarters about how to spend money and and the leadership of the campaign had changed a couple of times, at least. Were you in the press aware of that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=0.0,28.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Yeah, in fact that that piece that I read from yesterday had a section which I would have been totally inappropriate to read about how screwed up the campaign was, and particularly about how disruptive Stuart Udall was as somebody who kept zooming in from the outside to countermand other people and and so on. And it would have been totally inappropriate to read it. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=29.0,54.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was what was that from? If people want to look that up, what was the date on that archives, so the press was aware of it. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=55.0,65.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, what was one of the things about the Udall campaign was that there weren't a hell of a lot of secrets, because he was not a big into security and secrecy and tight control and all the rest of that. So it was very much of a free form kind of an argument. And you know, people on the staff would go to reporters that there were pals with and say, You wouldn't believe what so and so has just told us to do. And a lot of it was was aimed at stew that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=66.0,96.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: would never have happened in the Carter campaign. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=97.0,98.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: get the feeling there was some of that in the Carter campaign, but not a lot, because the Georgians kept pretty tight control for quite a while. That happened more in the general election when they had to, you know, bring in a lot of people who from the part of their own group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=99.0,113.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think this is something that affected rose campaign? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=114.0,117.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of course, yeah. I mean, Carter won that prime, that nomination, fair and square, he put on a better, much more disciplined campaign than, I mean, put aside anything about what you think may think about the qualities of the two men Carter ran the better campaign. I was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=118.0,136.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: going to say, is that a matter of inexperience or experience, or experience, but Carter's people were pretty inexperienced, too, actually, at this point in time, I mean, we're getting to where, to where the campaign was pretty much, pretty much decided. I might back up a bit, and Wisconsin, Harris did finally back out of the campaign a few days after Wisconsin refused to do so beforehand. Do you think had he backed out and endorsed Moe earlier? It's anybody's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=137.0,170.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: guess. See in the same column what I mean again, it would have been very inappropriate, particularly with birch by sitting there yesterday, the one of the points that that I made in the column was that when the other liberals knew that they were out of the race, they either stayed in or when, if they pulled out, they stayed neutral and did not, did not endorse him, or endorse, in couple cases, endorsed, endorsed Carter. And yeah, they that would have made a great difference. Why do you think they did that? You'd have to ask them. I don't, I can't, pure","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=171.0,205.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: speculation, but so at this point in the in the campaign, when it was pretty well decided, had your opinions of the men of Carter and of Udall changed? Yes, how had they changed? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=206.0,221.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in sort of diametrically opposite directions. I mean, I began to see Carter as somebody who was a good deal less sympathetic personality than I had thought at the beginning of of the year, who was whose claims to moral superiority often bordered on contempt of politicians and the political process. Also remember that during this time, after he emerged, we were beginning to learn a lot more about what he had and had not accomplished in Georgia. And he had turned out that he was, you know, had substantially hyped his own record in Georgia. I mean, he he talked endlessly about how he had taken, I don't know how many, I won't get the numbers right, but 330 departments and agencies, and pull them together into eight agencies and save millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. Well, the reorganization of the Georgia State Government had produced, you know, in the eyes of the Georgia press, at least as many problems that it has solved. And you know, people begun to do those stories saying. Let's do, let's see. You know how much reality there is in this guy's hype, but the most, the clearest thing to me, that emerged about Carter was that he really thought that he was on a different plane from most of the people in the political world. And there was a kind of contempt there, which I found bothersome, because presidents have to work with other politicians or they're not. Can't possibly be very effective with Udall. I mean, the thing that I mean, I'd known him and liked him, as most reporters had, but we had never seen him, you know, under this kind of pressure and the grace and the good humor and just, I mean, he was very good fun to be around, even when he was losing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=222.0,354.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in in 1980 Well, let me back up A little bit. Did you ever notice at that time, or at the convention itself, any animosity between Moe and Carter? Oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=355.0,369.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: of course, personally, both, yeah, both ways in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=370.0,372.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you recall any examples or Well, there","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=373.0,377.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was a great deal of anticipation and even some tension about among the Carter people, and certainly anticipation among the press as to what Moe would say in the speech at the convention there, because I mean that the lines that I quoted, which he'd actually uttered about beware of somebody who is so relentless in the pursuit of the presidency, that all things else become unimportant. I mean, he first framed that, obviously, in a reference to Richard Nixon, but he would apply it regularly on the bus to Carter, you know. I mean, what's going on with that guy? Does he know? How bad does he want this? You know, is there anything he wouldn't say or do to get to get this thing? Oh, yeah. And, and the Carter people on their side, I don't know that it was personal, but they were angry that he wouldn't give up. They said, You know, we beat this guy. What the hell? How many times do we have to beat him, for him to go away. I didn't give up. As you know, he went right to the he said, I want my delegates. Want to be able to vote for me right at the convention, which was very true, which, you know, is the kind of thing that's guaranteed to piss off the guy who says, I've won. Don't you understand what the numbers mean, that's why we have these contests. Somebody wins, somebody loses, and the loser is supposed to be a good guy and get out. And he didn't, and he didn't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=378.0,469.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: At the convention itself, I recall that there's a VIP booth that all the former candidates and all are invited to and to sit to watch the convention, and Mo was specifically excluded from because she hadn't, because, I'm assuming that's why, yeah, he was, he was specifically excluded, which sort of, I guess, goes back to your point that Carter wasn't quite what he projected to be. Sometimes was it was there an arrogance there, along with the just, yeah, I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=470.0,500.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Carter, knew correctly that he was a lot smarter than most of the people that he was. I don't think he applied this to Udall, but his general view of the political world was that it was made up of people of marginal competence and marginal ethics, and that, I mean, first it poisoned his relationship with the Georgia legislature, and then it poisoned his relationship with the Congress up here","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=501.0,529.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in 1980 Mo, considered running for president again. Were you aware of that at all? Then","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=530.0,533.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I probably was at that right, vaguely correct court. But of course, when Kennedy took it on, I don't think he ever did anything. I don't","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=534.0,543.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think he would have, would have run under those circumstances. At what point did did you personally or the press generally become aware of most Parkinson's disease?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=544.0,557.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: That's really hard to remember. I remember noting it at some point. My father had had Parkinson's,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=558.0,572.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: but a less virulent form he, I mean, he lived into his 90s, but he was a dentist, and so it affected his ability to practice his profession, because obviously your hand is jiggling even a little bit, it can cause real problems in his profession. So he'd had to, well, he was, you know, in his in his 70s, when he retired, which. Yes, but most of the time that he practiced dentistry, it was people didn't have much money, you know, during the recession and so on, and so he would have, I mean, he was not, he would not eager to give up earning money to support himself and my mother, but Parkinson's forced that on him, so I was aware of it. And I remember at some point having the conversation with Moe, after he had put a name to what was bothering him, and telling him about my dad. And you know, I said, you know, he's he was living my father was living then. And I said, you know, they're very happy folks in California, and walks and enjoys, enjoys life and has a good time with his grandchildren. So you got, you know, a lot to look forward to, but of course, his version of kind of Parkinson's turned out to be much more","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=573.0,658.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: just disabling. Did there come a time when, again, you specifically, or the press generally, thought that he should step down from Congress?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=659.0,665.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't remember saying, feeling that. What I remember, and it's, it's quite a vivid memory, was he retired? What in 9091,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=666.0,675.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: 91 after, after the incident where he fell down the stairs. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=676.0,681.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it would then probably have been sometime in the late 80s. I was up on the hill and in the press gallery and watched him come onto the floor when they were in debate. But you know, it wasn't the time when, you know, everybody runs into the vote. There was not a had not the bells haven't rung for a vote. He just came in from the cloakroom, and you know, by that point, it had affected his gait, and you know his and he sort of, as he had to do, by that point, kind of turned his whole body to look around the floor. And it was clear, I thought, from the gallery, that he looked around and realized, God, there's none of my old buddies here. And sort of turned and went back into the cloak room. And I remember thinking I may even have said to my wife, you know, he's really feeling that he's, you know, that his his generation is past, and it was quite a poignant moment. Now, you know, I don't I may have totally misinterpreted what was going on. He may have been looking for a specific person to do some business, but it was just that sense. He was looking for somebody to sit down next to and have a conversation, and he didn't find a single person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=682.0,758.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, just a last general, general question that I asked him ask everyone, and that is, we tend to speak a lot about most qualities and his strengths. What did you observe as his biggest weaknesses?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=759.0,780.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: His weaknesses, I think there are two things. One, like a lot of members of Congress, Senators and Representatives, he ultimately tended to do things by himself. I mean, on his own. He had good staff over the years, and enormously loyal staff, as you know. But I mean the story that Al Simpson told, which was such a wonderful story, was characteristic of that kind of of that generation of legislators, and probably for generations before that, where ultimately they didn't trust the staff. They didn't delegate any the really stuff that was really important to the staff. They did the deals themselves. I mean, Bob Dole was that kind of Senator. And when people like that get into presidential campaigns, their tendency is, you know, not to clearly delegate authority and and, and be real sons of bitches, if they have to with anybody else who tries to, you know, go around the thing and so, the the the the sloppiness in the campaign structure and the lack of discipline and the lack of that hard, you know, sort of just decision making edge, which is, it turned out, was probably critical enough failure, given the narrow margins. There is, was certainly a weakness. The other thing was, and again, you'll see a reference to it in the column, which would have been inappropriate yesterday, is that Udalls reputation coming off of his house experiences was wonderful, God, human being, absolutely sincere in his causes, but maybe does not have that final sort of I. Hard steel edge that takes people to the absolute top of the thing. I mean, to take it out of the presidential I mean, Carter obviously had that in the presidential thing, but in the congressional thing, somebody like Phil Burton, who was, you know, in a way, a rival and and, you know, although they agreed a lot on policy stuff, I mean, Phil, Phil Burton was prepared to to break your neck if you there. Moe wasn't ready, ready, ready to break your neck. And made a much more attractive human being. But when you were playing at the level that he was playing, when you run against a speaker, when you decide that you're going to be as a member of the House a serious presidential candidate, you probably have to have some of that ruthlessness there. And ruthless was never a word that you heard applied to to to Utah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=781.0,963.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: It's interesting in the in the interviews that I've gotten so far, the when I asked that question, mostly what I do get is he was too nice a guy. Yeah. I mean, what everybody quotes is he was too funny to be president, but, but I feel like I what I've been getting as a response more was he was too nice, yeah, well, with that, I think we can end and let you get back to business. Thank you very much. Thank.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277#t=964.0,966.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146495/file/270277/transcript/78593/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/593/original/azu_ms396-006_side2_a.vtt?1744913152","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/593/original/azu_ms396-006_side2_a.vtt?1744913152"}]}]}]}