{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/028pc2vs68/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Mark Trautwein"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Source"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection , MS 396, 3, tape 17"]}},{"label":{"en":["Relation"]},"value":{"en":["Morris K. Udall Oral History Collection (part of)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ferdon, Julie (interviewer)","Trautwein, Mark (interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-07-31"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["California--San Anselmo (spatial)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Oral history with Mark Trautwein conducted by Julie Ferdon. Trautwein worked with the Environmental Study Conference, which was a part of Congress, forming in 1975. Trautwein worked on the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee as a Legislative Assistant for Morris Udall. Trautwein discusses working on environmental issues with Udall and in Congress during his time at the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, including the Alaska Lands Act."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio cassette"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["MS396.041 (uid)","MS396.042 (uid)","MS396.043 (uid)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Oral history with Mark Trautwein conducted by Julie Ferdon. Trautwein worked with the Environmental Study Conference, which was a part of Congress, forming in 1975. Trautwein worked on the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee as a Legislative Assistant for Morris Udall. Trautwein discusses working on environmental issues with Udall and in Congress during his time at the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, including the Alaska Lands Act."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Copyright held by University of Arizona Libraries."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["University of Arizona Libraries"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/038/original/university-libraries-logo-2x.png?1711560609","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 6 - azu_ms396-041_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2739.288,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/325/original/azu_ms396-041_side1_a.mp3?1744847916","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2739.288,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: This is tape number 17 of the Morris K Udall Oral History Project. Good morning. It's Friday, July 31 1998 and we are at the home of Mark trout wine in San Anselmo, California. My name is Julie ferdon, and I would like to welcome Mark to another in a series of oral history interviews that form Morris K Udalls oral history project. All right, thank you for participating. Mark my pleasure. I'd like to begin first with just some biographical information. You were born on August 14, 1949 That's right, in New York City. New York City. I'm going to adjust this little I'm getting just a tad of a squeal. Did you go to high school in Aldon?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1.0,43.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I actually grew up in Stanford, Connecticut, which is just about 45 minutes outside of New York. Went to all my schooling was there in Stanford. My father is a was a book designer, worked for various publishing houses in New York City and community, community, commuted in and out of New York every day. My mother was a housewife and a real estate agent, and then I went to school at Georgetown University in 1967 went to the Foreign Service school with the intention of becoming a diplomat, but quickly realized in the late 60s that going into the service of American foreign policy was not exactly what not Good timing, not what I had in mind, really, and kind of panicked about what I would do with the rest of my life at that point, and transferred to Berkeley in 1970 and graduated from Berkeley in 1971 with a degree in journalism. Then went to work right after I graduated for the Berkeley daily Gazette, which was 100 year old daily newspaper for Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=44.0,130.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did you have a you were journalist? I assume, yeah. Did you have any special area you were covered? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=131.0,138.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: my the things I like to do most and spent the most time working on was covering the Berkeley City Council and Berkeley City government, which the time was a very all the activism that everyone thinks of with Berkeley had moved off campus in the early 70s with the election of a so called Radical majority on the Berkeley City Council, and I that was my beat, and I got to it was very exciting and crazy and wild and bizarre. It was my first introduction, actually, to government and to how strange and wonderful government could be. I actually, I often used to say that after four and a half years of covering the Berkeley City Council, that covering the United States Congress was or that working in the United States Congress was a piece of cake, because nothing could be as strange as the Berkeley City Council. But that for four and a half years, and then quit that and eventually took a job with the environmental study conference","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=139.0,201.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in was that in Washington, DC, what is the environmental ESC","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=202.0,204.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: is a still exists. It is a bipartisan caucus of the House and Senate that produces informational materials on environmental and energy issues for members of Congress, issues that are active in the Congress. Conduct seminars and briefings on those issues.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=205.0,234.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How did you how did you get that job I had? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=235.0,238.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was looking for work because I had quit my job at the Gazette After parting waves with my editors there, and I had come back to DC to visit a friend of mine that I had known while I was in Berkeley, and she had moved to DC, and she introduced Me to somebody, the guy who ran ESC and they kind of just developed into a job which I was eager to take at the time I moved clear across the country 19 left, left California, which I loved dearly, and moved clear across the country in 1977 to take a $14,000 a year job, which seemed kind of crazy to me, but I was also, I always wanted, I'd always been interested in the Congress and in the it always been a dream of mine to work, work in that institution. I was fascinated by it, and this was an opportunity at least get my foot in the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=239.0,298.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: door. Now in 19. 77 Mo was named Chairman of the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee in 1979 as I understand you began working for Moe, as was it chief legislative assistant then? Or just","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=299.0,312.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was just a why was one of many legislative assistants on the committee, working for Moe in his capacity as chairman. How","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=313.0,322.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was it that you came to work on the committee?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=323.0,325.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I had been while working for ESC the environmental study conference. I had my primary responsibility there was covering the Alaska Lands Act, which had was progressing through Congress had been for three years in 1979 so I was very well informed about the Alaska Lands Act per se and about other kinds of environmental issues. And my predecessor, who was Fran Sheehan, on the committee was leaving the committee to seek other opportunities, and they specifically needed someone to do the Alaska Lands Act for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=326.0,375.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: This was fairly late in the game the Alaska Lands Act. It had already passed the House in its second version, the first version that had passed the House","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=376.0,394.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: and the Senate in the previous Congress, and then been torpedoed the last minute by Mike Gravel, Senator Val from Alaska, and that whole sort of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=395.0,402.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that was his filibuster. He","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=403.0,404.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was, it wasn't a filibuster. It was that in the sort of informal conference committee that had been created late in that in the Congress of night in the year 1970 late in 1978 I guess it would have been. They had days and days of these intensive discussion, private, secret discussions between all the principles, including Mo, to try and reconcile the differences between the House bill and the Senate position. The Senate had never actually passed a bill. Typical the Senate, they didn't consider it necessary for him to actually pass a bill to have a position. And they went, they made compromise after compromise after compromise to Mike Revelle and Senator Stevens, the other senator from Alaska, and at the very end, right when they were just they had virtually reached agreement on the entire thing. Mike Revell comes in with his whole list of new demands, which included, as I recall, I was covering this for ESC at the time, some huge hydro power plant and a bunch of other just totally non germane and non negotiable kinds of demands. And it blew up the entire process. I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=405.0,483.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: recall, I think he was asking for some sort of hydroelectric dam that would have been, would have been the biggest projects in the Panama Canal. Yeah, it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=484.0,494.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was unbelievable. And everyone at that point, everyone threw up their hands, the President Carter then took the very, very bold and visionary step that he took to designate 100 million acres of national monuments under the night the Antiquities Act, which was a 1912 act that gave the president authority to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=495.0,520.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Why do you think Carter did that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=521.0,525.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: There were a couple reasons. One was that there were a lot of these lands that were under discussion as potential parks and wilderness areas and wildlife refuges, which had interim protections on them that were going to expire without some congressional action to extend them. But really the primary reason was to put pressure on the Alaskans and on the development interests that they represented to say to them, Look, you can't win just by stalling this process. You can't win just by killing everything you've got to play. Because if you don't, you're going to have 100 million acres of parks shoved down your throat that you can't do anything about and you can't do anything in you can do better, by your standards, by getting a bill done. And it proved to be an absolutely correct strategy. It was a very courageous strategy by President Carter. Mo always felt that it was the one thing that Jimmy Carter did, that that Carter could be most proud of, and that Carter deserved an enormous amount of credit for, because it really did set the stage for the passage of the Alaska Lands Act in the next Congress.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=526.0,626.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, it's interesting to me, because I understand that Carter set the Alaska lands bill as his absolute number one environmental priority, and yet, a matter of only a few years before he and Moe were duking it out in the primary for Democratic presidential nominee. Did, did that ever come up in in conversation with Moe? I gather there was no","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=627.0,652.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, not that I recall. I mean, certainly, you know, Moe had an extraordinary capacity to he never held grudges. He He never allowed, you know, kind of petty personal problems or issues with other members or other politicians to get in the way of accomplishing a goal or even giving credit he um, he may have very well. I'm sure I really was never a part of this, part of Moe's life or career, harbored some resentments about the way Jimmy Carter conducted the 1976 campaign. I'm sure he did and felt, you know, things could have been different if Carter hadn't done X, Y and Z, but I can't ever remember a single occasion in which that got in the way of Moe and Carter working together on things that they both cared about. And Jimmy Carter frankly, you know? I mean, here we are in 1998 Jimmy Carter was the last president we have had that really gave a damn about the environment and about conservation, who had a person had the same kind of personal feeling and personal commitment to it that Moe did and so. So working with Carter and working with Cecil Andres, who was Secretary of Interior at the time, who had a very similar kind of person, kind of personal feeling about about conservation and about the land. You know, it's a kind it's an old cliche that mo used to repeat quite often and lived quite often. It was, it's amazing how much you can get done in Washington when you don't care who gets credit for it. And mo live that, and Alaska was certainly one of those examples. It's","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=653.0,786.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: interesting your comments about his ability to not hold a grudge, because in in the oral histories that I've done so far, there's been a continuing theme of of his amazing ability to forgive even those who done him real, wrong? Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=787.0,800.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, it was, it was often difficult for us on a staff level, you know, day in, day out, we had to deal with people kind of screw and mow in some way or another, or, you know, just doing all those kinds of it's part of the the air you breathe, in the water you drink in the Congress that your opponents or your competitors are are sticking it to you in some way. And sometimes that's unfair and unnecessary and personal and and you know, it's staff's tendency to want to hit back when that happens. And this, this happened countless times. And you'd go to Moe and you say, you know, Mo, we need, we need to teach that guy a lesson. And Mo, I can't remember a single occasion in which Moe rose to that bait, and that experience over a long period of time With Moe taught me invaluable lessons, not only about politics and government and legislating, but about human relationships that I mean it was like they were the kinds of lessons that. You could apply to your own life and and that was something that I was most, most grateful to moe for teaching me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=801.0,908.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now in 1970 79 your first year on the staff, you in mo of that in Moe in May, in May of that year, Mo introduced the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act, otherwise known as the Alaska Lands Act. And obviously you worked on that bill. What exactly was your role? I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=909.0,930.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: actually came on in October of that year, after the house had already passed the bill. So the bill at that point was over in the Senate and was going the whole campaign to save the last frontier, which was a national campaign that we haven't seen the likes of since had moved to the Senate and to concentrate the Senate. So my role during that whole time was really a very limited one. It was mainly as a conduit between the environmental community and Moe to maintain communication between Moe and the environmental community in terms of what was going on, what their fears and hopes and what the lace little fire was where Moe might be effective in terms of, oh, whether it was dealing with a senator or with an interest group or a public relations press issue, whatever, so I, I cannot take any credit for any of The heavy lifting that took place in Alaska lands bill, but I was around and playing, you know, my little role at that point, I was, you know, I was 30 years old. At that point, I was my first legislative job. I had come into this there were people that had been working on the Alaska campaign for a decade or more, who knew far more than I did, and whose relationship with Mo went back much further than mine did. So I was just beginning with Mo. I was just being established my relationship and my credentials, you know, with Mo, so my role was pretty limited, but I did. I was witness to a lot of sort of wonderful, interesting little pieces of history. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=931.0,1047.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: as a witness, maybe you can tell us something about some of the players that were involved. I mean, I'm thinking there was this extraordinary group of people. There was cyberling and and Don young and Mike Gravel and Senator Ted Stevens and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1048.0,1063.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: John Seiberling was Mo's right hand man through this whole process. They had a very interesting relationship, one which was repeated many, many times in the future with other members. John Seiberling was the workhorse. John Seiberling was the guy who conducted the hearings, and he had an extraordinary capacity to sit through hour after hour after hour of these hearings without ever leaving the chair. We used to call him, you know, iron butt, because he, you know, staff would have to kind of get up and go get lunch, or just wander out in the hallway, something like that. And Seiberling would sit there hour after hour and listen, really listen and engage witnesses and and he would actually read these endless reams of documents that were generated. Cyberling was the guy who really understood the innumerable kinds of issues that were there in a bill of this size. And it was a huge bill. Moe was the MOE was the commander in chief. He was the the idea, man, the guy who set out the broad agenda for dealings. We used to have a joke at the staff level, as a matter of fact, that if Moe and that, if Moe and John Seiberling were running D Day, and it was the morning of D Day that or there was a meeting to plan D Day, and Mo and and Seiberling would come in to address the everyone else who was going to be involved in this, and would go something like this, something like this, Mo would come in, and he would give a give a stirring speech about how important this operation was, where they're going to defeat Nazism make the world safe for democracy and. And triumph over equal, over evil, and then and now, I'll hand over the briefing to General cyberling. And General cyberling would come in and say, on D Day, the Air Force will attack from the air, and the army will attack by land, the Navy will attack by sea. And now staff will work out the details. And that was kind of, kind of the way it was Mo. Mo was never a detail guy. Mo was never the kind of guy who, you know, would want to sit down over a bunch of maps and say, let's move the boundary over here instead of over there. He was the big picture guy, and it was up to people like John Seiberling and and especially up to staff to do the detail work, to know the issues, to know why you know a boundary is going to be drawn here instead of there, or who stood to gain by going one way an issue, and who stood to lose what and and all that kind of thing. And Mo just would set the tone for what was, where the balance was, where the equities were, what was fair. So anyway, so John Seiberling was just a relentless a relentless worker.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1064.0,1286.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How about Don Young? Don Young from Alaska,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1287.0,1294.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Don Young was both sort of a joy and a curse to work with young is a man of great good humor, a very Hale fellow, well met kind of guy. But he, he and Moe were, and he and Moe got along on a personal level, very, very well. Chris Moe, got along person level with almost everybody, very, very well. If they didn't, there was something wrong with the other guy. Ouch.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1295.0,1330.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Let's try something here. What's this mean? Okay, we're on there again. We'll try this. Don","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1331.0,1339.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Young had a very volatile and occasionally violent temper. He had a great sense of being wronged by this whole process that a bunch of outsiders were coming in and telling his state what to do, and he was frankly, not very constructive or very cooperative in the whole process. He basically just wanted to stop the whole thing and defeat the whole thing. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1340.0,1373.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was that pressure he was getting from the folks back home? Do you think","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1374.0,1377.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't think he was not representing a very powerful view in his state, and probably the majority view in his state. But you know, there is a way to do it and a way not to do it, and often, often, his approach was rather personal, or it just wasn't constructive. I mean, he didn't, he wasn't the kind of guy who would come up and say, offer constructive alternatives, you know, to solving a problem, you know, it would be just don't do that kind of thing. But he didn't have the votes, and everyone knew he didn't have the votes, and he knew he didn't have the votes either. So that has a way of shaping the way you approach, approach the issue. In the final analysis, he, he really was quite irrelevant politically, to the to the and legislatively,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1378.0,1446.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how about to the process? How about Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1447.0,1451.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Gravel, of course, was gone after his famous bomb throwing incident. He he was defeated. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1452.0,1466.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: which famous bomb throwing in the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1467.0,1468.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: conference discussion over the Alaska Lands Act at the end of the previous Congress, which blew up that attempt at the Alaska lands Do","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1469.0,1478.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you think his his having worked against the Act went against him in his election.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1479.0,1484.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I My memory is a little hazy about this. I think there were a lot of other issues in Alaska and a lot of other issues about Mike Revelle. I think he might have even had some sort of personal issues, some personal scandal around him. Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1485.0,1499.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and he nominated himself for vice president at the convention, which I gather when, I mean,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1500.0,1504.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: he was overwhelmed a strange man, and, and it showed and, no, I mean, it's Alaska's a very Republican state anyway, and he was a Democrat. And Frank Murkowski was a Ketchikan banker, is that who succeeded him, succeeded him, the main figure by far in the Senate was Ted Stevens, who is even in a Democratic Senate, was a very, very powerful figure. He was a very senior Republican Party. Doesn't matter very much in the Senate, really, it's all about Senate's all about personalities and and back scratching, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1505.0,1555.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: more so than the house. Oh, it's,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1556.0,1558.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it's the house operates totally differently from the Senate. The Senate is all I used to say in the Senate, every man's a king. Senate operates under unanimous consent 95% of the time, which means one senator can stop anything he doesn't like for whatever, and doesn't even have to have a good reason for it. They're always concerned about each other's prerogatives at Senator as senator, there's enormous deference between senators. And here we're dealing on a bill on Alaska. It's Ted Stevens. Ted Stevens was one of the senior members Republicans on the Appropriations Committee, and had himself appointed to the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, which Scoop Jackson from, from Washington, was the chairman of and he and Stevens were old friends and colleagues. Jackson also very much fashioned himself a great expert on on energy issues. And this was at a time when energy was probably and foreign oil and and the availability of oil was probably the most important domestic issue, and and the the biggest issue in the Alaska Lands Act was the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge whether to open that up to oil and gas development. And so it was sort of the Senate was just an extremely difficult place to get a bill of any kind. The most important figure in the Senate was Paul Tsongas, who uh, from the conservation point of view, was Paul Tsongas. Paul Saugus had been a member of Mo's committee as a member of the House. He had served for one or two terms on the committee, and then had gotten himself elected to the Senate and agreed to be the primary spokesman for the conservationist position in the Senate, and Paul Tsongas did a stupendous job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1559.0,1689.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did he introduce the legislation in the Senate? Or was that he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1690.0,1694.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: did offer the Senate version of HR 39 the Udall Anderson bill in the Senate, and did all of the negotiating with Ted Stevens and Scoop Jackson and the other interests that control the process over the Alaska Lands Act. It was an enormous amount of work on something that he really had no particular reason to he was a freshman senator. He there was no he had nothing really to gain for from doing this, he just just got convinced that was the right thing to do. And Mo was one of the people that convinced him that it was one of the that was the right thing to do. And he did it, and he's largely responsible for the fact that a bill passed the Senate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1695.0,1758.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: eventually. Now you mentioned that HR 39 was the Udall Anderson bill. The Anderson part of that is, I assume, John Anderson of Illinois. I'm curious, how did he become co sponsor that bill. Mo","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1759.0,1772.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: always, always sought to have Republicans involved in the conservation work of his committee. He believed in you. And bipartisanship, especially, I mean, on a purely practical level, it helped to have someone from the Republican side say, you know, this is not a party issue. This is a right and wrong issue. So he was constant, even on the committee, he was constantly looking to kind of nurture and develop Republican Republicans that he could work with. John Saylor from Massachusetts was before I got to work on the committee with someone like that, I think they'd worked very closely together on the strip mine act. John Anderson was a moderate to liberal Republican congressman from Illinois who had just had the conservation bone in his body, and he was very articulate. He was very prominent man at the time. He ended up running for president as an independent in 1980 1980","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1773.0,1860.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: In fact, I that was something I was curious about too with with it was Carter and Reagan running against each other, and then Anderson ran as an independent. Did the Alaska lands bill ever become a campaign issue? To your knowledge?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1861.0,1874.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I don't, I don't think so, but I think that his that being associated with HR 39 and the Alaska lands fight helped increase John Anderson's profile on a national level. It gave him access to a constituency in a community that he might not otherwise have had. Whether that was part of his personal calculation in deciding to join mo on that bill, I don't know. I, I never got the feeling that John Anderson was a very conniving, you know, kind of man. I He was a deeply principled man, and I think he, he did it because he believed in it. I, you know, just parenthetically here, it's quite fashionable, of course, to think of everything and everybody in Congress as very calculating and very conniving, and everything sort of being a personal calculation of what benefits me and what gets me ahead or what gets me behind, or what hurts my opponents and helps my friends and all that kind of thing. And certainly there's an enormous amount of that in Congress, but in my 18 years of working in an institution, it's also true that there is, there's an enormous amount of principle. There are men who believe men and women who believe in things because they care about them and do things or try to accomplish things because they think it's the right thing to do. And working with those people and being around those people is one of the most rewarding things about being in Congress. Mo had had a way of bringing out, you know, that better part of a lot of people's nature because he was, he had a way of showing that way to people, not that mo could not be calculating, not that mo could not, you know, be fairly conniving. I mean, I've his whole humor. Thing was, was a very complicated thing from all but one of the things it was was a weapon, which we can talk about later. But you know, I mean to me, Congress was a place where you had the best and the brightest you had but you also you had fools and knaves and crooks and bumbling idiots and a lot of mediocre people in between, and you know, people like Mo and John Seiberling and John Anderson to me, you know, we're the heroes. We're the best and the brightest, and it was an honor and a privilege to be associated with, with, with people like that. You know, it just made you feel good to get up every day and say, I'm going to, you know, I'm a foot soldier for men like that. On the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=1875.0,2056.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Alaska lands bill, as I understand it, passed the House on May 24 of 1979 or somewhere in that vicinity. And a version, a much less protective version, didn't pass the Senate until a year later in August 1980 Why the delay? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=2057.0,2078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it is solely because that's the way the Senate works. And for my entire career working on that committee, this was always true of the Senate. The house would pass in our committee. Mo's committee was produced more pieces of legislation that became enacted on acted in law than any other. City, the house, and we would churn these out regularly, you know, month after month after month, and they go over the Senate, and they'd sit there and they wouldn't do anything. And because the Senate doesn't have a process, the house has rules under which things get done and the majority rules. The majority actually runs the institution of the house and gets things happen in the Senate, it's like a gigantic bumper car amusement park ride. You got 100 cars running around that place, all going in different directions, bumping into each other, and it's very difficult to get anything done. So the Senate, in this case, the Senate would not act on a bill until everything had been worked out ahead of time. The Senate doesn't believe in like holding a hearing then holding a markup in which everybody gets a chance to offer their amendments, and you vote them up or down and move the bill out to the floor, where it gets out to the floor, and then everybody again can offer their amendments. You vote them up or down, you got a bill. Senate doesn't work that way. In the Senate, nothing gets to the floor until basically, it's all been negotiated out between whoever is interested, and it can be anybody. So this is all very private behind the scenes kind of process. Well, in this case, was such a huge bill, there were a million issues to be negotiated out the Senator Stevens and others did not. There was a big question about whether they wanted to see a bill done at all. In fact, their ace in the hole was always this notion of, we'll just stop any bill from happening. Now President Carter's action to designate these 100 million acres of national monuments really trumped that card for theirs, so they really had to get a bill done. We everybody knew that, but they were, they were very hard negotiators and and so it was just a hard, long process, and when you're dealing with, you know, 100 million acres of parks and wilderness and issues about black Anwar, the the arc of National Wildlife Refuge, transportation corridors, mining, language, subsistence issues, protecting traditional and ways of life and traditional cultures. It was enormously complicated and took a lot of work. But ultimately, you know, with the clock running down, this was a presidential election year, Carter and Reagan running against each other. All this was being done against the backdrop of the presidential","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=2079.0,2285.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: race between those two men, and it really was quite extraordinary that a bill got done at all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=2286.0,2292.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: now, the bill that came out of the Senate was considerably less protective than the bill that came out of the house and from from what I from what I've read, the house, congressmen who were initially involved in this refused to to compromise to the Senate version, until Reagan won by a landslide. This","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=2293.0,2317.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: is a key factor. The the normal process, of course, for a piece of legislation is, you know that if the House, the House passes a bill, the Senate passes a bill, they don't, they aren't the same bill. There either has to be a conference committee in which the differences are worked out, or you get into this ping pong thing where the house takes a Senate Bill, amends it sends back to the Senate. The Senate amends that bill, until finally, you know, there's a bill that everybody agrees on. There was enormous pressure on Moe to to not accept the Senate Bill. In fact, the entire negotiations in the Senate were conducted sort of on the understanding this would not be what was called the last bite of the apple that that Mo and the House would have an opportunity to get back into the process as the house representing the house position To say that many of the things that the Senate had done in terms of not protecting particular areas or some of the policy issues Southeast Alaska was especially a place where the Senate had really done what I would consider a particularly poor job of protecting. Resources that really deserve to be protected. And Southeast Alaska in particular, was an area where it was felt that the house had to get another bite at the apple. But time was running out, and an election was and it was really a question of who was going to win that, win the election. If Carter had won, I think there's no question that there would have been the house would have not accepted the Senate bill. But I remember this very clearly after the election we had the staff had lunch with Mo, I think it was over in the Madison and the cafeteria and The in the Madison building, and in my role as the person communicating, you know, the wishes and the point of view of the environmental community to moe, I said to him, because the environmental community did not want Moe to accept the Senate Bill, I said, Moe, the environmental community thinks that we should reject this, and we should try and come back again next year and take another shot at this. Mo just cut me off. He said, No way, no way. He said, we've got does. Doesn't anybody understand. You know, Ronald Reagan is about to become the president. You know, this was a no brainer to mo to take the bill as the best we could get, with the hope that at some point, you know, we could come back and improve on it. This reminds me, by the way, of a story that is so indicative of Moe and so so like him when the house was considering the Alaska lands bill. This is just actually before I come to work for him, and was in this sort of historic event, of process of passing its initial this was in in the spring of 79 of passing the last lands bill. This whole debate was televised back to Alaska, and this was in the days before C span. So this was quite an extraordinary thing. So everybody in Alaska is watching this debate on TV, and mo, mo stands up, and he gives one of, you know, his sort of grand conservation speech. And he says, You know, I've been through these fights 100 times. And when you're going through I've been through these debates 100 times, and when you first try to establish these parks and these wilderness areas, everybody hates you. They think you're a communist, or worse, that you're that you're coming in, you're taking their livelihoods away, and and you're just vilified. So you come back five years later, and they sort of grudgingly admit that maybe this wasn't so bad, after all, he said, You come back 10 years ago and and hell, they all act as if it was their idea to do this, he said. And he said, If you know, if you come back 25 years later, they'll name a mountain after you. Well, some guy in Alaska watching this on TV sent mo a letter, and the letter said, and this was a letter that mo kept in his desk, and would bring out of his desk. He would show it to people he was having visits with, really, up until the day he retired, he loved this letter. In the letter said, You'd all you son of a bitch. On the back of this letter is the only as a picture, the only mountain they're ever going to name after you. And the guy drawn this beautiful mountain with snow covered mountain with a flag pole and a big flag flying out. And on the flag, it said mount bullshit. Love this thing, you know, I mean, most people didn't, this was totally self deprecating. You know, Mo knew he had a lot of bullshit in him. It was really a measure of the man that he for years and years and years afterwards, he found great humor in this. I. Aside, but it was always one of my favorite things about Mo. But anyway, so he was absolutely clear that he understood that with Ronald Reagan become becoming president, that the show was over. As far as the Alaska lands issue was concerned, and I that, and the fact that mo always saw this bill as an absolutely, I mean, it was not only i.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325#t=2318.0,2320.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270325/transcript/78702/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/702/original/azu_ms396-041_side1_a.vtt?1745252369","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/702/original/azu_ms396-041_side1_a.vtt?1745252369"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 6 - azu_ms396-041_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2400.696,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/326/original/azu_ms396-041_side2_a.mp3?1744847920","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2400.696,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, okay, we're, we're back on again. Sorry about that. Too. Fascinated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=0.0,4.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Alaska Lands Act was not only the crown jewel in the history of conservation legislation. I think Moe understood, I know mo understood, that it was also a crown jewel, if not the crown jewel, of his legislative career. And he wanted that bill done. He didn't want to sit around and fuss around, you know, for, you know, endless years trying to get a few more acres of wilderness or this or that or the other. Thing Moe knew, Moe was a legislator, and the measure of his success was in getting bills passed. That's it may sound self evident or obvious, but there are a hell of a lot of people in Congress who don't see themselves as legislators. They see themselves as policy people or politicians or, you know, they're just holding down the keeping a seat warm, or, or they're leaders of movements and causes. The Mo was not that way. Moe was a legislator, so and he understood that that bills weren't going to be perfect, and then he wasn't going to get everything he wanted. He had a clear sense, I think, in all of these bills, which was which he was able to communicate to staff and to others. Of that he had where what his bottom line was. It was a relatively high bottom line, which was a very important thing to remember with Moe. I mean, he's often thought of as a compromiser and all that kind of stuff, but, and he was, he was willing to compromise, but he compromised at a very high level, in that he didn't want just any bill passed. He wanted a good bill passed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=5.0,123.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did he ever in compromising or in doing a bill initially? Did he ever ask for more than he really ever anticipated getting so that there'd be something to give up in a compromise? Yes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=124.0,140.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: we all understood that was part of the way the game was played, but he played a little less than others, certainly in my experience with him and when we talk about the Arizona wilderness bills, it was a slightly different process. We always would, you know, understand that, you know you were building a little fact into a bill. But with, particularly with the Arizona wilderness bills and the Alaska lands Bill was It was also the case. I think mo had a because of the nature of Mo's political personality, and because of the nature of his credibility, the fact that that he had a reputation for fairness and principle, you could take a different approach. You could take the approach that said, here, here, with this proposal, this bill I'm introducing, or whatever is a this represents what I think is a fair, balanced place to be, so that, rather than, Here's my wish list, Bill now come attack it. There was no here's here's where I think the reasonable principles balance is, and that way. And so the so that the negotiating then became over whether to tweak it a little up or a little down, but not you know how to cut the difference between what MO The conservationists thought and what and whoever you know, Don young, or a good part of the rest of the Arizona delegation thought, you know was, you know, a non conservationist, Let's say, the sake of argument, kind of position. I think Mo was unique in his ability to pull that kind of thing off, and it was because of it flowed directly from his personal and political personality, the respect and credibility he had with his peers as a man of principled but reasonable judgment and a man who believed in things but also a man. And that if you could make a good argument to him that someone's legitimate, legitimate interests were being unfairly trampled upon by some proposal or other, that he was willing to accommodate it. I think that was really the guts of what made Moe different. And this was a personality that got communicated, not down through his staff. And I will say here this. This is something that I mean, I can't I won't be able to keep repeating over and over again. But I want this to be sort of understood throughout everything. When I talk about most legislating that often, when I'm talking about mo I'm talking about Stanley Scoville as well. Stanley Scoville was Mo's chief of staff on the committee for his entire tenure as Chairman. Stanley Scoville Moe, it's impossible to think of Mo as a legislator without thinking of Stanley Scoville. He was his right hand man. He communicated so much of Mo to the staff, and was so and and in his own way, often imperfect, enforced the kinds of standards that mo wanted and expected from his staff in terms of how you went about doing the job of legislating for him. And this whole notion of kind of principled reasonableness was one that Moe personally, and then through Stanley, enforced with the entirety of his staff. And once you got it with Mo, and it took me a few years, I think I was, you know, I was young and full of, you know, spit and vinegar and stuff when I came to work for mo about saving the world. But once, once you established with Mo that you got that and that that's the way you would work, he gave you enormous responsibility and authority and freedom to do his work for him. Once you earned his trust and his confidence that you were gonna think like him and and approach issues in a mo like","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=141.0,469.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: way. What was that way? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=470.0,472.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: what I'm talking about, it's like that you you were going to do the right thing. The goal was to do a good bill. I mean, in my case, when I was doing wilderness bills or parks bills that you were going to your you were going to do a good park, you were going to do a bill that really did protect wilderness, that really did protect the land and its resources and what but was also a fair bill that didn't just try to pile on acres for the sake of piling on acres, you know, that didn't try to screw people just because they weren't on your side. They didn't, you know, just try to if ranchers or miners had a problem with either in general, on a policy level, or with some specific area you were supposed to try, if their problem was legitimate and reasonable, you were supposed to try to solve it, you know. So you had to be willing to listen to people. You had to know your stuff. You had to understand where the other guy was coming from. And, but at the same time, have that same commitment, that same fire in your belly for for doing something you'd be proud of. And, and, you know, I mean, I was the luckiest guy in Washington. I was incredibly privileged. I never, for a day, forgot it. But here I had, you know, here I was working for Mo Udall, who really, personally believed in, in caring for the land and in not reliving the mistakes of Western you know, progress and development in terms of running over everything and paving over everything and using up everything before it was all gone. And who, you know, who wanted, who believe that was part of the western heritage in. Yeah, and wanted to make a major statement in preserving and conserving that for future generations. And here I was, you know, and I that was basically what my job was, was carrying out that agenda for him. And he was chairman of the committee that did this legislation, and he was Mo Udall, who, you know, had this utterly unique political capital, personal political capital, with which to carry this out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=473.0,629.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And he pretty much let you, let you run with something. It was the most rewarding","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=630.0,635.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: part of the job, because I wasn't with when once you kind of established this relationship with Mo of trust and confidence, you were not. You didn't. He didn't just give you errands to do. He gave you responsibilities. You know, he gave you the responsibility for doing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=636.0,655.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: a lot of the negotiating for and gave you a lot of the authority for making a lot of decisions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=656.0,672.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And it made, not only made working for him rewarding, it was a little scary at times. Sometimes you weren't altogether sure you know what the right thing to do was. But you could always talk to moe about that. I mean, you could always go to moe because he was very, very accessible. I mean, you could Moe wasn't one of those kind of members where he was hard to get his time, you know. I mean, I could see him five days a week, if I had to, and I could go to him and say, Mo, you know, you know, I got this problem. And, you know, I got these people saying this, and the other people saying that. And I so know what, you know, where you're comfortable being with this, you know, and we talk about, and I'd get some sense of it from him, and then, you know, I'd go and and and run with it, it. It was also an enormous motivator. I mean, this was so much fun. This was, this was so much you really felt that you had a share in in these accomplishments, that your role was more than than ceremonial, and at times it was definitely, You know, I mean, it would have been easy to sort of let that go to your head, and a lot of people do in that institution, you know, give people a little bit of power, and they just, you know, well, they become highly unpleasant people and very difficult to work with. I any time that happened with me, and I like to think it almost never happened. But there was Mo, you know, to kind of sort of take some of the air out of your balloon, and there was Stanley to make sure you didn't let that who would bring you down to earth in a hurry. But there wasn't a day that went by that I didn't understand, that Mark trout wine didn't mean a damn thing, that none of this was happening because of Mark trout wine, that Mark trout wine only meant anything because he worked for Mo Udall, and that when Mark trout wine walked into a room, the only reason Mark trout wine presence in that room was of any interest to anybody","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=673.0,826.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: was that I represented Mo Udall, and especially as the years went on, the deeper and deeper I got into my career with with Mo, you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=827.0,844.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: know, people understood that I could speak for him, and that I had his ear as well, as well as his confidence. And so that was, you know, I don't think that that is necessarily a usual or common thing an institution. It wasn't when I was there and I I loved mo for that. I you know you, you didn't get a lot of personal strokes from Mo, on a personal level, you know, I mean, he wouldn't, you know, put his arm around you and tell you what a great guy you were, or ask how, how you were doing. I mean, Mo in the 12 years. Hopeless years I worked for Mo, he never once asked me a single question about my personal life, but he he respected you and honored you in the way he","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=845.0,915.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: let you work and the way he lets you represent Him. And I felt privileged by that and and it just made you, it just made you want to work so hard for the guy you know","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=916.0,931.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in the in the more specifically on the Arizona Wilderness Act, the 1984 the first Arizona Wilderness Act. I've heard you referred to as the architect of that act. What? How did you determine? I mean, assuming it was you, as opposed to mo or someone else. How was it determined? I should ask what lands to include and which not to, which to set aside, and which not to, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=932.0,966.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that was the first piece of legislation that I ever really did from O, a significant piece of legislation I ever did for Moe, from start to finish, where, you know, Moe brought me in one day and said, We're, you know, I want to do the Forest Service wilderness for Arizona, you know, go to work kind of thing. Oh, my God, you know, it's, it's show time. This is, you know, this is, this is the real deal now. And I got to do this by this, by now. This was in 1983 so I've been working for mo for about less than three years. So I kind of done my apprenticeship, sort of, and I had established this relationship with Emmett that I was talking about. So I just had to, you know, Moe's structure to me, was to direct, go draft, do what I had to do, draft a bill. To do that, I had to understand the areas and the issues, and to do that, I had to just educate myself. So I went back to Arizona. I spent time in Arizona. I solicited. I went to all the interest groups in Arizona, the environmental groups, the The Arizona mining Association, the Arizona what was called the cattle men's association at the time, to local governments, we sent out letters to all of these people saying over most signatures, saying that he intended to do this bill, and soliciting their input, soliciting their ideas. We had the Forest Service study, the so called Rare two study, roleless area review, now evaluation study in which the Forest Service had designated areas that it thought were suitable for designation as wilderness. And that was sort of the starting point. We got all these proposals in from these organizations, and some of them were quite reluctant to do them, particularly the cattlemen and to some extent, the mining community, the environmental community was, of course, incredibly eager to do this. And it was a rather quiet, extraordinary show. I mean, they gathered up a whole crew of volunteers from all over the state and and one or more people were assigned to literally adopt. That was the phrase, to adopt a candidate, Wilderness Area. Every area that the Forest Service had studied had an adopter in the environmental community, and their job was to know this area.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=967.0,1127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Who organized that, the wilderness association of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1128.0,1131.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the Wilderness Society and the Sierra Club and the Audubon Society. You know, at that time, the environmental community in Arizona was really quite small and quite young. When I first came to work for mo in 1979 you could literally count the number of people willing to self identify as environmentalists on your fingers. You had to scare them up. It was amazing, but it was growing rapidly, and every one of these wilderness areas got an adopter. And those people went out, they literally hiked up and down in each one of these wilderness areas and prepared reports, brochures, not brochures, reports and with pictures and all kind of stuff about each and every one of these areas, what was in there, what wasn't in there? In many, many cases, these people knew a lot more about what was what those 80s areas were actually like. Than the Forest Service itself did. They were an extraordinary resource. And we got voluminous reports and studies from the Arizona mining Association eventually, and once you got sort of all this stuff in, you could just kind of kind of lay these things over one another. You know what the recommendations of the environmental community and the Forest Service, the miners and the cattle growers, and kind of put them over each other? And right when you did that, you could immediately see that there were about a third of the areas that everybody agreed ought to be in in the system, you know, and another third or so of the areas that everybody agreed ought to be out of the wilderness system. And the argument was over this middle third, and that's, you know, basically where what my job was was to try and figure out where the equities were in that and in that process, I brought to that a you know, my own values, which by then I was confident were most values, which was when in doubt it went in that if you could make a reasonable case, Then areas should be protected. You tried to protect it as best you possibly could, but it had, you know, you had to have solid reasons. There had to be something there worth, worth protecting. And I got into conflicts with both the environmental community and the development community. On a number of those calls, there were a number of areas that, you know, I mean, when the adopters adopted these areas, they got very personal about them, and it became sort of a mark of their the value of their work, whether the air their area got in the bill or not, and it was hard sometimes to tell folks that, you know, I just don't I just don't agree with you. I just don't think this area should be in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1132.0,1348.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Did Did other members of the Arizona delegation to Congress have some say over areas in in their particular jurisdictions, or time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1349.0,1359.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Jim McNulty represented southeastern Arizona, and as you everyone knows, Mo and Jim McNulty are very, very close, and essentially that part of the bill, the areas that were in his district, we deferred really completely to Jim and his staff on those areas, including Mount Graham. The seeds of Mount Graham were sown in this bill. The other members, frankly, no","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1360.0,1400.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: were they involved at all? Did they care to be involved or,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1401.0,1410.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, you know, and this, this was part of the interesting part of all the process he went through with Mo or with the Arizona delegation on these bills. None of these members wanted it. Really wanted to see wilderness designate in their districts. These were all conservative Republicans. They didn't given their own left to their own devices, the only wilderness areas they would have ever designated were the ones that everybody agreed on. And the rares are completely easy, because there's no controversy about them whatsoever. Moe drove this whole process. Moe made the argument to them, which was a legitimate argument, that it was important to resolve these questions, because all these areas you know that were in rare two, in the rare two study at the time, even ones that hasn't hadn't been designated as wilderness were sort of or recommended for wilderness, were in this limbo, like status, and really couldn't be used if they weren't going to be designated as wilderness, couldn't be used for mining or timber harvest or whatever. So they had a reason to want to get a bill done, but they their participation was very low, minimal at best, in part because I you know, in part because, I think, of lack of interest, but also because. Recognition that Mo was driving this process anyway, so, so I went through this process, and it actually was easier than I thought when I then I thought it was going to be when I first started it, because, like I say, when I got, when I got all this and I, you know, boxes and boxes full of these things. I just sort of consumed my office of this information from interest groups and stuff. It became pretty clear, you know, and I drafted up a bill for Mo, and it was, it was not a bill. It was not a wish list bill. And and I discussed this with Mo, and it was quite clear that this was going to be a bill that we introduced where we this is where mo thought the reasonable balance lay, because, like, like I said before, didn't want to just sort of get out a bill that everyone felt like they could start nibbling away at and attacking and all that kind of stuff. Mo was going to use his credibility to get this bill through, and I would. And this actually brings me to maybe my favorite Moe story of all time. It was one of the most extraordinary moments that I ever had with Moe, and one that taught me many, many lessons I I had prepared, drafted the bill. I had sent it over to him with a long, long memo explaining, you know, this, that and the other thing, and going into great detail about this bill, and this was, I think, for some reason, I'm thinking this was like February of 1984, and Moe called me over to his office. I said, Read your memo. Everything looks great. I like this bill. Let's get ready to grow. I said, Great. And he said, Okay, first thing we got to do is, is called Barry. I said, Goldwater. I said, What do you want to call Barry? Goldwater for so well, I want to get I want to get, I want to get in I want to be introduced this in the Senate, a companion bill in the Senate. And I, I thought, Oh, Barry Goldwater isn't going to introduce this bill the center. Everybody knows Barry Goldwater's, you know, is right wing conservative senator. And then friend of you know, the mining industry and the ranchers and all that kind of stuff. And I kind of rolled my eyes. I thought, old Mo, he's kind of little soft in the head here, you know, if he thinks he's going to get this, you know. But then again, who am I, you know? So we'll humor the guy on this, you know. So mo literally picks up the phone at that moment and calls Barry Goldwater and says, Barry, I'd like to come over and talk to you about something. Barry said, Sure, come on over. And which was extraordinary in itself, the act of moe walking across the capitol to go see, to go over to the Senate, to the Russell office building to see Barry Golar was a significant thing in and of itself. It showed respect and some deference. So I said, so God, Jesus. So I went with Moe. We trapped across the Capitol grounds running to keep up with Moe's giant strides. And of course, I'm the dutiful staff person. I'm just a living, breathing stereotype of the congressional staff person. I'm carrying two arm loads full of expanding files crammed with documents and information about all these wilderness areas and ready to answer any question that might come up in this important discussion that was about to take place between these two great men. So we get over to Moe's office and to Goldwater's office, and rush it in. There's lots of, Hey, how are you? And all that kind of stuff. But there was a vote on on the Senate floor, so Goldwater says, well, Mo, come on, walk with me. So we start walking, and I'll never forget this. I mean, here we here. The three of us are walking down the marbled hallways of the Russell building, Mo Udall, Barry Goldwater and me. Now, these are two of the giants of my generation, and I'm sitting there going, what am I doing here? You know, little old me with these two great men, I just it was one of those moments where you sort of stand outside of your life and your world, and you go, this is unbelievable that I'm even here anyway. So they're walking along, and they're not talking about the wilderness bill at all. They're talking about, oh, some B, 29 that a. Crashed on Mount Baldy when they were kids, and how they used to climb up there and and play in this old crash, B, 29 and and they're talking about their families, which, of course, these are two of the oldest families in Arizona. They go back, you know, to the settlement days of Arizona that their families have known each other, and they're comparing notes on cousins and uncles and whoever. By now we've gotten onto the Senate subway. We're tooling along and over the Senate, and now they're talking about their health. And at one point, at one point, they were comparing medications and and there was some medication that they were both taking, and they and go, water, just they were sitting facing each other on the San subway and go water, leaned over, and he was laughing. He's slapped mo on the on his knees, yeah, Mo, I'd taken that one too. That's great for your sex life, isn't it? Yeah, it's great. And the whole time I'm going, what are these guys talking about? Mo, is blowing it? We are supposed to be talking about this wilderness bill, and we're running out of time. We get literally the doors of the Senate. Goldwater is standing there holding the door open to the Senate floor. And he says, so. Bo, what brought you over here? And Mo says, well, Barry, you know, we've got this wilderness issue in Arizona and and I think it's really important to everybody that we just get this thing resolved, because it's not doing anybody any good. While this is still up in the air. And, and I've drafted up a bill here with my staff guy here and, and I think it's, I think it's a pretty reasonable bill, and I'd be honored if you introduce it in the Senate. When go where said, Sure, Mo, no problem. You just tell me when, and I'll drop it in. I said, Thanks, Barry, you're great, and the way you walked. I couldn't believe it. By the time I got back to my office, Twinkle Thompson, who was Senator Goldwater, is extremely able and extremely wonderful staff person on my counterpart on lands, issues and stuff, had called me three or four times to say, What the hell happened? Because she was totally flabbergasted by this. This was such an extraordinary thing. I mean, I don't think particularly today, in eras of term limits, and you know, a lot of ideologues running around Congress now, the trust and the confidence that these two men had in one another, which had been built up over lifetimes of working together, even though, you know, Mo Udall was the great liberal and Barry Goldwater is Mr. Conservative, they shared so much in common, and they had so much trust and confidence in one another that that the other would not embarrass the other, that and that the other man's word was his bond. Was an extraordinary lesson to me, and that bill that got introduced by the two of them, that I drafted in Mo's name, and, you know, in under Moe's sort of tutelage, broad, general tutelage, essentially passed unchanged. There were a couple of small changes made in the bill, but they were bills that we had planned. They were a couple of areas that we that I put in the bill with it with the intention that Senator Goldwater could drop them out so that he could say, you know, I made, I didn't just pass mo Udalls bill. Now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=1411.0,2052.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were any of those places I noticed in Roderick Nash's book, wilderness in the American mind, he mentioned that the Arizona wilderness Bill opened several million acres around the Grand Canyon to uranium mining, and sort of mentioned that as a legacy of compromise, was that one of the things You were just speaking of, or no,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=2053.0,2078.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: no, actually, the areas that ended up getting dropped out were really areas with little resource value. Either way, they were kind of there was, I think there was really only two areas, one a very small one of less than 10,000 acres, and the other a fairly large, one of maybe. I can't remember how many acres it was, but it was one of the larger areas. But it was also an area where there was really little interest from the mining point of view, or or any other point of view. Really, the areas, my recollection would be that the areas around the Grand Canyon, and they really weren't that many, because this was a Forest Service bill. And so there were, this is the Kaibab National Forest, which is around Grand Canyon. And there were, there were some areas those were pretty non controversial. There was another title to this bill, and this is maybe what he's referring to, which was a so called Air Viper strip title, which did deal with BLM lands and the Arizona Strip is that area, you know, between the North Rim of the Grand Canyon the Utah border, that area, those areas had been subject to a, really a private negotiation between the environmental groups and the miners and the ranchers that had gone on without any involvement whatsoever from any member office or really any government agency. It was this little sort of side private thing, and they had reached this consensus agreement kind of thing. And you know, it was supported by the by the environmentalists, it was supported by the miners and the ranchers. And it was in Bob stumps district, and they basically handed this thing to Bob Stump, and he introduced it as a separate bill. It got included in Moe's Forest Service bill, and the inclusion of that bill in there was actually quite controversial. Bob Stump hated having it in the bill, because it meant that in order to get this, no winners, no losers. Air Viper strip bill, he had to be supportive of the larger Forest Service bill, which he was opposed to. And most regularly bashed by the press for doing this, but it was really a no brainer. I mean, it was obvious that this was had to be done now that that compromise, that agreement between the environmental community and the Ranch community did open up a lot of lands on the strip that I'm not sure, but I they did become available for exploration and development of, you know, various kinds and and may well some of those lands may well have end up subject of some mining operations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=2079.0,2280.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Let me ask you, we've we've only got a few more minutes left on on this side so the tape doesn't run out again. Let me ask you, during 1984 when you worked on this bill, how was Mo's health? He had already been diagnosed with Parkinson's, I believe, officially diagnosed in 79 I believe how was his health in 1984 during work on this bill, from a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=2281.0,2306.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: from from Purdy, Parkinson's point of view, I think the the effect of Parkinsonism on him at this point was very minimal, you know, some of the shakes and some things of that nature, but really very, very minimal. His general health, of course, was never good. And this is something that a lot of people didn't appreciate is that mo always had a terrible back. He had all kinds of, you know, bad back problems. He had had this incident of falling off the ladder at his home, I think, shortly after the presidential campaign 1976 I think, yeah, he's broken both of his arms. Mo was always in pain. Was always in some kind of physical pain. And you could see it, and, you know, in the way he moved, he never talked about it, and he never complained about it. And, you know, I mean, he was an incredible patient, but he was always in some kind of pain. But in terms of the Parkinsonism, it was not a factor,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=2307.0,2390.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: not a factor at that point. Okay, let me I'm going to stop the tape here so we don't run out on this side. And I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326#t=2391.0,2393.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270326/transcript/78703/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/703/original/azu_ms396-041_side2_a.vtt?1745252394","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/703/original/azu_ms396-041_side2_a.vtt?1745252394"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 6 - azu_ms396-042_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2668.512,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/327/original/azu_ms396-042_side1_a.mp3?1744847924","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2668.512,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, okay, we're starting tape number 18 second tape for Mark trout wine. When, when we left off before, you were just telling me something about a story about Mo Udall on a block of cheese. Well, this was, this was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=0.0,17.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: one of my, really, my earliest experience with Mo when I had just been hired by him in 1979 it was a standard thing when you got people got hired on the committee, that you went out to Tucson and got introduced around so that people got to know you, and you got to know people, and and that kind of thing. And I went out to Tucson, and I to do that. And one night,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=18.0,48.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: mo, mo and Bruce Wright, his AA and I were together, and Mo was giving some remarks to the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=49.0,58.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: some local political group or other, and Mo suggested that the three of us meet back at his apartment at the Redondo and sit around and have some beers and stuff together. This was, I was like, I had just been hired by moe Udall, like, you know, a month or two months, two months before. And I was very, you know, I was still there. Was 30 years old. I was still in the awe period, you know, I mean, Mo Udall was the great. Was a great man, you know, and, and I really hadn't interacted with him at all. And, and it was just very much in awe of this great figure, and was really excited at this idea of going back and actually having beers with him. I couldn't imagine what this would be like, you know, sort of my wildest dreams. And so mo finished talking, and he said, Look, I'll go back and why don't you guys get the beer and I'll meet you back there. Said, fine. So Bruce and I went off got the beer. Mo had gone ahead of us when we got walked into the apartment, there was Mo. He was lying on a couch, and he was wearing a pair of cut off shorts, blue jean shorts, and nothing else, no shirt, no socks. It was a hot night, just wearing nothing but a pair of cut off shorts, that big, long body sticking out of either end of the shorts, and he had a can of beer on the floor. He was sitting there reading something, and sitting on his bare chest was this big block of cheese, cheddar cheese with a knife stuck in it, just sitting there on his chest. And all the kind of awe that I'd had, you know, walked in that room with, just dissolved right there, you know, I realized he's just a guy, you know, he's just a guy having a beer and, you know, lopping off hunks of cheese with a knife, you know, just like any, You know, schmo kind of thing. And you know, that was Mo was always that kind of informal man, you know, he was always a man, utterly without pretense, utterly without, you know, kind of show. He was never, ever fussy about himself or anything, you know. I mean, remember, he was the guy who got the house to allow members to wear bolo ties on the floor. That was one of his great achievements. But, you know, I think that moment with seeing mo in a pair of cut offs with a block of cheese and a knife, nice stuff stuck in on his bare chest, was the moment when I realized that all these guys, Congressmen, Senators, presidents, whoever. They're just people, you know, and they got, they got offices and titles and yada yada yada all this stuff. But they're, they're just human beings like anybody else. And when you understand that, uh, it frees you up. I mean, just as just as a worker bee, it frees you up to understand what's really going on. You know, I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=59.0,293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: think that's very true. Let's jump ahead five years. I. Back to June of 1989 which is when Moe introduced, I believe they were introduced as two separate bills, the Arizona desert Wilderness Act and the Arizona refuge Wilderness Act. They would eventually become the desert the Arizona desert Wilderness Act. Were you as involved in that bill as you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=294.0,321.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: were I did? I play the same role on those bills as I did, including","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=322.0,329.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the selection of what sites would be included in it? Oh, very much. So now there were hearings in in Lake Havasu, in Phoenix, yes, for that bill. Did you attend those? Oh, yeah. Oh, sounds like you've got some stories about, oh,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=330.0,345.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I just, you know, actually there are tapes. Mo did not attend the hearings. Oh, he didn't. No. At this point, Mo's health was deteriorating pretty badly, and so he his travel was very limited at that point. But I do, I do remember the Phoenix hearing really, really well, the members who attended that we had Bruce Van Tou, who was chairman of the parks subcommittee, was there. I think maybe Wayne Owens might have been there from Utah, but also some of the other Arizona members there, Bob Stump was there, Jay Rhodes, I think was there for some reason I think John McCain was there. The thing, the funniest thing I remember about this, this hearing, was that kind of halfway into the hearing, one of the policemen who was doing. Were assigned to do security because for the hearing, because they were there was some thought that feelings ran a little high on wilderness bills, and there was some fear that there might be some disruption of this. And he said, So anyway, this, this policeman comes up to me, and he says, I've got this girl over here, and she's wearing a mask, but she says she's one of the witnesses. Well, you can't let her testify in a mask. Can you? Of course you can. You know witnesses can this. We're here to hear the public, and they can do whatever they want. He was like keeping her outside of the room, or something like preventing her from even entering the room. I said, You can't do that. Let her in here. So she did testify this, and it was a performance artist. This woman was a performance artist from from Sedona, and she wore this pink, flowing diaphanous robe, and she had this other little woman with her, who had little triangle, and she would like, ding, ding. And her whole, her testimony was this performance of dance and and this sort of poetry, and she would say, I, I am the wind. And she, she'd pretend to be the wind while her little, sort of Sancho Panza would would ding the little triangle, and I am, I am the mighty tree, and she'd dance around and kind of be a tree. Well, you know, the whole while these members are sitting there, and they're like, trying to keep straight faces, but they just think this is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. And she concludes this whole thing by with by chanting this thing, remember this dream? Remember this vision? And she reaches into her pocket. At this point, I can see all of this, all of these policemen around this room, sort of reaching for their weapons, because they don't know what she's reaching for, but she pulls out a bunch of rose petals, and she starts walking in front of the members and literally just dropping these rose petals on the desk in front of them, saying, Remember this dream? Remember this vision. I was sitting behind, I think I was sitting behind Congressman stump, and His neck was just the veins on his neck were just bulging. He was so he just hated watching this so much it was and we were, it was all","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=346.0,574.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: we could do to sort of burst out laughing, well, and you probably all remembered the vision too. I remember","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=575.0,579.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the dream. I remember the vision, and I tried to be faithful to it, I guess. But you know, these issues could bring out the best and the worst","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=580.0,591.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was there much opposition expressed in these hearings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=592.0,594.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the these two. Bills were far more difficult to do than the Forest Service bill had been in 84 this these were BLM lands and Wildlife Refuge lands. They they were considered working lands in in more ways than the Forest Service lands were. It was also later in the 80s, opposition to passing wilderness bills was growing. This was the first BLM wilderness bill, and to this day, is the only BLM wilderness bill that has ever been passed. Arizona is the only state of Alaska that has completed its entire doing all of its wilderness bills for all federal lands, Park Service, BLM, Forest Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, which is one of most great achievements. There were many, many issues in the BLM and fish and wildlife bills that were extremely difficult and extremely controversial. The water rights issue being a prime one,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=595.0,682.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: is this, the reservation of water rights","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=683.0,685.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: wilderness by the time I'm sort of dusting off my memory, by the time we got to do this bill, there had been a a couple of court cases in lawsuits filed by environmentalists in Colorado and elsewhere, that environmentalists had one which, in which the courts had said that when Congress set aside wilderness areas, they at the same time implicitly claimed a water, a right to Water flowing through those areas sufficient to protect the wilderness values and qualities of those areas. This just set off earthquakes throughout the western states and then the water communities in those states, because it threatened to introduce into water allocation issues, which are, of course, the lifeblood and highly controversial under the best of circumstances in western states, introduce the federal government into these decisions, and the federal government in the pursuit of an interest that was sort of inimical to development interests, to protect to keep Water in these areas, to protect fish and wildlife. Essentially, it wasn't so much an issue in the forest service bills, because most of the Forest Service wilderness areas are high in the mountains at the headlands of Lottie water courses, and the only users of the water for most of the forest service areas are downstream. So as a practical matter, it's not an issue with BLM areas. That's not the case. BLM areas tend to be downstream. There are people above and below these potential wilderness areas who have water rights and are taking water out of these rivers. And for me, as I was approaching the kinds of choices and decisions about which areas should be in and should be out, I placed the highest possible priority on including areas in the bill that had water in them. I mean, this is a desert bill. If you want to protect desert wilderness, it seemed to me, you have to start with areas where there's water, where there's in the desert, where there's water, there's life. And the whole point of these bills is to protect wild life in all of its forms. So I knew that, unless we could solve this water rights issue, that that these bills were just dead, maybe dead as a doornail, the I went through a very similar process to the one I'd gone through in 8483 and 84 on the previous bill, in terms of soliciting the input from all the groups and and I would say, you know, that process went, you know, in a fairly smooth way, very similar to the previous bill, the same kind of issues, or same kind of phenomena of, once you got this information in, you could look at it and you could. See, you know which areas everybody agreed to be in, which areas everybody agreed to be out. And the remaining areas of controversy. There were a lot of differences, though. And one thing you know, Barry Goldwater was no longer in the Senate. We had Senator De Cassini and Senator McCain, Jim McNulty was no longer in the house. Jim Colby was now in that seat. So the political dynamic of the Arizona delegation had changed. And you know, at this time, there was always this sort of mantra within the Arizona delegation about doing things together as a delegation. This was something they all sort of strived mightily to do, which is really quite extraordinary when you consider how difficult that was when it was especially difficult when you had a guy like mo there, because Mo was different from every last one of them, and Mo had different points of view, but that he was also essential to them because of his position, his power and his prestige, they needed Mo and I so once again, I think you know, Mo was dragging the entire delegation sort of through This process. There was a very distinct sense that I well, particularly with certain members that they were doing this for Moe, they recognized that this was a legacy bill for Moe, and out of respect and affection for him, you know, they wanted to get this bill done come hell or high water, and that was, I think, especially keen with John McCain, first and foremost, also with Senator Deconcini And Jim Colby. And there was a lot more active member involvement in this bill than in the previous bill, much more, I think, because of the level of controversy, you know, on the ground controversy about these bills. I mean, it was all over the map. You know, in the in the Fish and Wildlife Service bill we, you know, we had the Cabeza Prieta wildlife refuges, which is 800,000 acres in one chunk, and it's right in the middle, I mean, it, and it's also, at the same time, it is part of what is now called the Goldwater Air Force range. I guess so, so, I guess so, it's bombing range. So we had the whole issue of the military use of this area that we're trying to do wilderness in. We have the military and wilderness interacting together here, which is a real culture clash and real political clash. We had the water rights issues we had the ranchers in sort of open revolt over How changes the kinds of changes that might be required of their operations when you have a grazing allotment in an area that's designated as wilderness, whether they have whether, whether those changes are ones that make sense for them, economically and that kind of stuff. And there are a lot of horror stories about what the Forest Service and BLM had done to people in the situation, almost all of which turned out to be apocryphal, and on and on. I mean, these were difficult bills. These were these were real mountains to climb.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=686.0,1158.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, the the the Senate bill, as I understand it, the bills that were initially looked at, BLM and and the Fish and Wildlife Service had had one set of figures, as far as how many acres to set aside, and Deacon seen McCain, had a considerably lower amount of, excuse me, acreage that they recommended, and Moe's was higher than both of those. But as I understand it, by the time the bill actually passed both houses, it was awfully close to to what Moe had initially asked for. Is,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1159.0,1196.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, again, you know. We tried very much take this posture that, you know, we weren't going to get into this splitting the difference kind of legislating, that when","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1197.0,1209.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: mowing, we being mo office, okay,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1210.0,1213.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: that when Moe introduced a bill, it it represented what, in His judgment, was the reasonable balance kind of thing. And let's debate about, you know, so and let's get into being specifics about areas and that kind of thing. And I think, again, we were largely successful in that. And in the final analysis, I do think that that most of the other members really didn't care too much about specific areas. They cared more about some of these larger policy questions, water rights, military over flights of cabeza prietta, policy on grazing allotments in wilderness areas, things of that nature. The water rights thing was the biggest one and the hardest one and the worst one. And we were extremely fortunate in in working out language. On that one, it was difficult. We you know Congressman John Kyle, who was a congressman at the time, had litigated Indian water rights issues before the Supreme Court, United States Supreme Court, and he felt he had a kind of a special kind of knowledge of this, and was very aggressive and was a tough Sell. We thought we, you know, we thought we had reasonable compromise language. We were, in the final analysis, I have to say that I think the whole wellness water rights issue is it was, it's kind of a fraud, in the sense that I think it addresses potentialities and possibilities that are almost never going to happen given the way water is actually allocated. We really were in the area of theology, in this whole area and but it was important for us to maintain the principle that, you know, we couldn't allow these bills, for the first time to be a forum for a denial of what clearly, under any other sort of law or any other scheme would be a federal right. The federal government should be free to assert this right, but we had to do it in a way that would reassure people who were uncomfortable with the idea of the federal government coming into state water courts and asserting so he was right that this wouldn't upset the apple cart. Ultimately, we were able to do that through many long, long, difficult hours of negotiating. And I'm this was not an area in which I was terribly comfortable, because I'm not a water lawyer, is a highly technical area, and I, you know, we had to get a lot of help from outside, people who really understood this stuff, people like John leshe, who was later to work on the committee. Before he became this he did go back there. He actually came John leshe ultimately came to work on the committee, specifically to work on this wellness water issue. And in his brief tenure there was invaluable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1214.0,1438.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was Mary Doyle, ever involved in that does that? I don't recall. Okay, should we move to Mount Graham?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1439.0,1447.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Oh, let's, let's have a good old time before we leave this though, I do want to say that I'm intensely proud of those two bills. I think they I think they're extraordinary achievements, that an 800,000 acre chunk of wilderness, you know, in cabeza prietta, is extraordinary. In the final analysis, every single area that had water in it that could have been designated as wilderness was designated as wilderness. It's a very aggressive bill. I also think it was a very fair bill to the other interests in the state, you know, who had legitimate interests in terms of of grazing and mining and other kinds of development. I think the bill is a real, a real monument to most principles, and the way he tried to have things done was","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1448.0,1525.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: the Buenos Aires refuge part of the second one, or the first. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1526.0,1529.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I just before we get on to Mount Graham, which was maybe one of the low points, I'd like to mention Buenos Aires, because to me, it's a small thing, but it's maybe at times I thought it's the thing I'm most proud of having been involved in. That happened fairly early. I forget exactly when, but it was in the early 80s, and that was not something that had to be legislated. It was a matter of acquiring funds through the appropriations committee to purchase that property. At the time they it was a large ranch the Fish and Wildlife Service. The owner of the ranch was a foreign national, Mexican national, who was interested in selling it. There were only two conceivable buyers for it. One was a Japanese conglomerate that wanted to turn it into resort with condos and golf courses. This was near Sasabe. Yes, it's in the altar valley near Sasabe, right down the Mexican border, in a very remote valley. But it's only it's only a little over an hour from downtown Tucson, which made it up just enormous value from many points of view. So between, you know, the Japanese and the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the Fish and Wildlife Service was interested in it primarily number one because it was habitat for an endangered species, the masked Bob white quail. But also in a larger sense, because it was a very it was a large intact piece of property in a totally pristine Valley, and it was a Fish and Wildlife Service that originally brought it to my attention, they were seeking funds from the appropriations committee to buy it. In order for that to happen, you have to have the support. You have to have political support, especially support from the member in whose district this any land acquisition is located. And in this case, it was Moe's district. So this was something I did a lot of you know, I mean, having to sort of sort through these sorts of requests for most support for land acquisitions. I looked at this and I got very excited by it, because I just thought it was an extraordinary opportunity, an extraordinary piece of property, and had you been there? No, I had never been there. Ultimately, I've been there on a number of occasions, and it really still, it thrills me to this day, but there was this so there was this problem which was sort of centered around this bird, this quail. The Press got wind of this, and it was sort of like being like a snail darter thing, you know, people and people kind of forget in this day when Moe has become an icon, and, you know, Arizona's natural resource, or, you know, Arizona's giant kind of thing, how vilified Mo was, particularly by in the press, but in particularly in the Phoenix press and the Arizona Republic, and I got mo to sort of support this was going to be an appropriation would have to take place over several years, because it was a fairly large acquisition. And the press got into this, and they just started dumping on Mo and all kinds of snide, sneering editorials about how much this was going to cost per bird, you know, and columnists wrote columns suggesting literally positing the fact the idea that the reason why Moe was supporting this was because he was going to retire to the house that was located on this ranch, because there was an airstrip there, and so he was going. Going to fly in and out of there, you know, scurrilous kind of stuff. And you know, he was being made fun of. And, you know, Mo could handle a lot of things and almost everything he didn't think nobody likes being made fun of. And I remember, sort of in the middle of this Mo, you know, I went to Mo, and I said, Mo, you're getting hammered, you know, blah, blah, I just want to make sure you know that you're cool with this, because if we're going to do this, we're going to have to support appropriations for this over three or four years. The only thing he asked me was, did I think it was the right thing to do? You know? He said, You know, well, this is a good thing. This is a good thing, isn't it? I mean, this is the resources here are extraordinary, aren't they? And I said, Well, yeah, it was, there was a no brainer for him. There was no, you know, and this was something it wasn't like Alaska. We didn't have John Denver and Robert Redford, you know, giving concerts, you know, to say Buenos Aires, you know, this was a small thing in his district in his state, but he was getting clobbered over this and and, you know, how many, how many politicians today would do this? You know, just about zippo, but most stuck to his guns and stuck by this, not only with the original access acquisition, we ended up acquiring additional lands, Eva cruise property along aravaca Creek to the to the east of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1530.0,1909.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: That's what I wondered, if the that area in Arivaca was included in that,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1910.0,1913.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not in the original part, but after the after the initial base property was acquired, then the force the Fish and Wildlife Service was successful in convincing Mrs. Cruz to sell, and that was acquired, I think, in two additional chunks later on. And I don't know, I to me it because it was, you know, the kind of thing where it simply took the courage of one man saying he wanted to do the right thing, in the face of a lot of dunderheads who didn't know anything but what they were talking that They were talking about, but had access, you know, to a typewriter and a newspaper willing to publish it. The fact that, I mean, that is a very noble thing to me, you know, and that, I think one of the things that mo understood, you know, Mo always was very proud of the fact that that whole ring of parks and wilderness areas, county, federal, state lands that surround Tucson, which Tucson has now grown up to and Beyond, to him, was an enormous metaphor for his conservation vision, which is that, you know, you have to think way down the road when those areas that surround Tucson were originally designated and stuff. No one they were controversial, but no one thought that much of it because they were so far away from Tucson. Well, where would Tucson be today, you know, without that open space available to it? And I think he saw the same thing about Buenos Aires refuge, is it? Oh, yeah, it's way the hell out there, you know, in the altar Valley and all that kind of stuff. But","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=1914.0,2030.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: one of these days, it'll be discovered,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2031.0,2034.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know. And to have, you know, a little over an hour from downtown Tucson, such an extraordinary place with such an intact ecosystem, with so much wildlife, so many opportunities to actually view wildlife there, and an absolutely gorgeous environment will be invaluable. So anyway, that little thing to me was one of the, one of the proudest things I ever participated in for Mo, with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2035.0,2069.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: good reason. Yeah, it was, it's quite a place. Yeah, it really, it's one of my favorite places. It really is so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2070.0,2077.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: from the sublime to the ridiculous, the ridiculous on the Mount Graham.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2078.0,2087.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You had mentioned earlier, that sort of the colonel of Mount Graham started with the 1984 Arizona wilderness bill, as I understand it, the the four. Service had recommended inclusion of the entire top of the pinellanos as wilderness. The U of A kind of express University of Arizona expressed interest in building telescopes on Mount Graham. So the top was sort of left out for further I believe, is a study area, I think, is what it was termed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2088.0,2122.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: What we did was it really would have been, I think, quite impossible, and really contrary to the Wilderness Act, to have put the entire top of Mount Graham in wilderness, because there was a road, there was a road, a developed Road, running right up to the top of that mountain and around the top of the mountain, and they were, there were cabins, and it was not a pristine area by any means. I got a lot of heavy recreational use that was not consistent with wilderness, with cabins and all that kind of thing. So at the time that we did the 84 wilderness bill now, Jim McNulty was very much aware of the university's proposal for telescopes there. And the and the committee report, as a matter of fact, makes mention of the university's proposal, and the report says that the reason why the boundaries were drawn the way they were, and what you have basically, is a is a wilderness area that kind of goes down the sides of Mount Graham, but leaves the top and the corridor of the for the road, the existing road out of Wilma area and just is just regular forest service land. And the committee report is quite clear in saying that the reason why that was done was to permit the university's proposal, the consideration of the university's proposal, to go forward. There is nothing in that act, or in the way the boundaries were drawn, which presumed that the university's proposal would be, would go would go forward, would would be supported, would be approved. I'm sorry, by the Forest Service, there was no presumption one way or the other, about whether those telescopes would actually get built,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2123.0,2259.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: and at that point in time, too, as I understand the the Sierra Club, the Grand Canyon chapter of the Sierra Club, supported leaving the wilderness designation out at that point, I think they were more concerned about your cabal world. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2260.0,2277.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yes, it really, you know, it's looking back on it's interesting. And in the time, there really wasn't any sort of grand any sort of great controversy about it. I think Jim McNulty, and most especially his staff person who did the work, Linda Lewis, who did a was a spectacular job on that bill for Jim McNulty, and was a top notch staff person, and very, very a person, very dedicated to conservation. They really, this was sort of a no brainer at the time it really, there wasn't much controversy or question about the drawing of that, of that boundary. We did not hear from this year club or anybody else about this was, you know, a bad idea, or, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2278.0,2336.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: rue this day, or anything of that nature. And to me, it was kind of a,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2337.0,2344.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: oh, I don't know, you know, I mean, the idea of this whole thing about the university when having this telescope park up there was sort of a vague, kind of off in the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2345.0,2353.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: distant future. Yeah, that was 1984 Yeah. It wasn't off in the future, enough. 1985 a significant event happened in 1985 the Mount Graham red squirrel was listed under the Endangered Species Act and I gather, the following year, 1986 the university began very actively lobbying Congressman Udall, along with other members of the delegation to approve some telescopes. Who was doing the lobbying, and what were they asking?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2354.0,2391.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I have to tell you, I was sort of largely unaware of the. Um, the University, University activity on this. I don't really, I don't recall any meetings between university lobbyists and Mo on this issue in Washington. I mean, maybe they were talking to him about it in Tucson. But I don't recall any meetings about this","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2392.0,2419.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: until, I suppose it would have been 1989 with when push was coming to shove and the University of the Forest Service was about to render its decision","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2420.0,2437.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: under the Endangered Species Act about the Habitat Conservation Plan and that sort of thing, which was potentially a very damaging thing to the university, and the university was coming to Congress seeking a legislative solution, solution to this. How about a year before that, I could be my I'm pretty fuzzy about my dates. Well, let","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2438.0,2459.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: me, let me just I think, I think you're right on the 89 on that in the year before, though, in 1988 I had a note of a meeting in your office. I got this from a chuck Bowden article that was in city, making this excellent","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2460.0,2475.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: article. By the way, I recommend it to anyone, except for his snide reference to congressional staff and their red ties.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2476.0,2485.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: He mentions, he mentions a meeting in your office with Margie McGonagall, who is the director of Federal Relations for the university, Peter stripmeyer of steward, of stripmeier of Stewart, Stewart observatory, and John Moe, the lobbyist for the DC law firm of Patton bogs and blow. That","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2486.0,2505.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was that that was after that was in the well, I remember this meeting. I remember this meeting very, very clearly, but I do remember this meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2506.0,2518.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Well, tell me about the meeting, and we can always clarify the date.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2519.0,2523.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Wow. Those individuals did come to my office in Longworth Building. Subject matter was Mount Graham, and my recollection, it was perking along at that point, although you're right, the Forest Service had not made its decision yet. The decision was coming soon, and they came to me, representing the University, with a request, if you can put it that way, the request was that mo contact Mike spear, who was the Regional Director for the Fish and Wildlife Service and the one responsible for making the decision, and indicate to him that the decision the kind of decision that Moe would like to see, which was, of course, the decision that the university wanted to see. I told them that I would take that request to moe, but that I had to tell them that under that i Under no circumstances, would I recommend to him that he do that. And it was inconceivable to me, no matter what I told MO That Moe would do that, because we just don't, just didn't do that. We did not interfere. And this really was an article of faith in the Utah operation from Moe through Stanley scoval on down that you when this was, you know, this was the kind of thing that got the Keating Five in trouble. You did not interfere in the appropriate decision making, particularly regulatory decision making processes of federal agencies, in this case, land managers. It was simply wrong and inappropriate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2524.0,2663.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm going to flip the tape over here. Do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327#t=2664.0,2666.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270327/transcript/78704/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/704/original/azu_ms396-042_side1_a.vtt?1745252446","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/704/original/azu_ms396-042_side1_a.vtt?1745252446"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 4 of 6 - azu_ms396-042_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":2695.272,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/content/4/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/328/original/azu_ms396-042_side2_a.mp3?1744847926","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2695.272,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Okay, we were talking about the the meeting that you had in your office with members of the university","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=0.0,9.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: the so I had told them that I, like I said, I would take this request to Mo, but that I had to tell them that under it was inconceivable to me that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=10.0,21.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that he would do what they were asking. The meeting got warm at that point. Mr. Moog, who was the lobbyist for worked for patent Boggs and blow, which is one of the most well connected, high powered lobbying firms in Washington.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=22.0,44.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I recall this very clearly, sort of very snide, rather presumptuous man to tell you the truth. And, oh, Mark, come on, we all know that's not how Washington works. You know this? And I said, Well, I don't care how Washington works. That's not how we work. Mr. Strip matter weighed in with sort of similar kinds of comments and observations that this was what the university wanted, and this is what the university should get. And the conversation got very heated, as a matter of fact, and ultimately, I had asked them to leave, which was something I very rarely did in my 18 years on the hill. But it really got offensive to me. And it was interesting to me that the entire time, or through a good deal of conversation, Stanley Scoville was actually in the outer office and heard this entire exchange. And as soon as they had walked in the door, he walked out the door, he walked in saying, Who the hell were those people? And I told him who they were, and he said, your job description does not include taking that kind of crap people. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=45.0,135.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that was that mostly Moog that was giving","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=136.0,140.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Moog was the most in your face. I mean, of the three there was, there is an interesting group. John Moog was very much in your face. Hard driving twist your arm, lobbyist, Mr. Strip matter, Dr strip matter was a scientist and academic bureaucrat, who believed utterly and without reservation in the importance and sanctity of his cause and his project, and couldn't understand in Any way why anybody wouldn't do anything they possibly could do to promote it, and anyone who would raise a question or stand in this way was clearly, you know, not in touch with reality. And I think Margie McDonough was sort of, she tried to play Peacemaker a bit in this, I think she found the situation uncomfortable. I mean, she was the with the public relations operation at the university and and I just on a professional level, she knew it wasn't a real good idea to, you know, piss off people you needed. And she just found the whole sort of situation ugly and uncomfortable. But she was also there representing University's position and stuff. So it was all around it was, and I, you know, it was very difficult for me as well. I, which this is a theme we'll get, will come up all the time and talking about Graham, this whole issue was the hardest issue that I ever saw Moe struggle with. And as a staff person, it was the hard and because of that, it was the hardest issue for me to do for Moe, because he was trapped between two constituencies that he considered his constituencies. They were his legacy constituencies. He wanted to please them both between the University of Arizona, which, after all, I mean, he had a history going back his entire life with the University of Arizona. He loved the University of Arizona. He wanted to do anything he could to have. Help that institution be a great institution. On the other hand, his whole legacy as a conservationist was one of a man who loved the land and did whatever he possibly could, you know, to walk gently on the earth, and here, here was an issue where cutting the baby in half wasn't going to work, and he knew it and and he was very conflicted over this, and that conflict was reflected to me and, you know, it wasn't like the other issues we know, where I could clearly, you know, go take Pork Chop Hill mark. This was one of, you know, you know, find a way through this mark and in a way that preserves me as I the way I interpreted it. In fact, once I recall in the in some of the sort of darkest days of this whole issue. When Moe was just getting hammered, I was getting hammered by both sides. He pulled me aside in his office, and in the most plaintive way I'd ever heard Moe say anything to me, he said, get me out of this mark. And I said, Well, no, I'd like to get us both out of this, frankly, but this is a tough one, particularly given, given the way mo, mo didn't want to come down hard on either side of this issue. He did not want to be the person to who stopped the telescopes, and he was the only person in that delegation who could have because everybody else in that delegation, everybody else in that delegation was willing to do whatever the university wanted to have done, without question, without reservation, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=141.0,435.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: You're speaking of Congressman Colby, Senator Cassini and Senator McCain, what did, did you communicate to moe? What the university had asked? Basically, they had asked,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=436.0,450.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, and I'll tell you that this was one of the this was one of the kind of times when you were most proud to work for Mo, because I was aware that I, you know, just had a very, very bad meeting with these people who represented something very important to moe, and he had to know so and, you know, it was often, often my job to be the Bad Guy. Mo never wanted to be the bad guy with anybody, and that's fine. We all understood that's not uncommon with members, and it's not uncommon that staff have to be the people who do the dirty work, and it's unpleasant. You don't like it, but if your member backs you up, when the going gets tough, it's it's just part of the job, and it's okay, you know? And I went to moe, and I told him what had happened and and he made it absolutely clear to me to not worry about it, just keep doing what I had to do that he didn't like to have his staff abused either, because it had gotten personal. It got personally abusive, and maybe they felt I abused them personally too, I don't know, but I tried not to, I try not to do that kind of thing. And you know, it's just to have that kind of support from your boss, make coming to work makes it possible to come to work the next day, you know, because this, this whole issue never, never got good. And there were days when it was, I went through whole months where this was just a nightmare.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=451.0,577.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Were you did? Maybe this is not a fair characterization, but were you as a staff person, sort of the fall guy? I mean, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=578.0,588.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, yeah, I became well because, see, neither group wanted to believe that. You know, any, any of this was Mo. I. So the answer had to be elsewhere. And the only other elsewhere there was, was me. So whenever Mo was constantly doing some of left foot, right foot with this issue, you know, on one day, he'd be doing something that was sort of beneficial University. The next day, he'd be doing something beneficial to the environmental community. And whenever that happened, the other side would get outraged, and they would start calling, this is almost extraordinary aspects of this issue, and a great education to me here we have this at the time, the whole issue was between, you know, essentially, you know, the university and its astronomical community and the environmentalists and the biological community, over focused on the squirrel, the squirrel, red squirrel habitat, I would regularly get scientists from the University of Arizona calling me up, and the astronomers would call me up, and they would say, you stupid idiot. Don't you understand how important this scientific work is? And you know, those biologists, they don't know a damn thing what they're talking about, why I've worked at observatories all around the world, and there are all these little animals running around. We don't do anything to hurt these animals, you know, sort of amazingly kind of ignorant remarks and contemptuous of you know, the other scientists. And then the biologists would call you up, and they would say, you stupid idiot. Don't you understand how important this habitat is, and and these stupid astronomers, who cares what they find out, they're just gazing at a bunch of stars. You know, it was incredible how contentious these scientific minds were of other scientific minds and how ignorant. It wasn't amazing that they were ignorant of sort of public process and public decision making and all that kind of stuff, but how contentious they","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=589.0,739.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: were, of it were the astronomers in unison for the telescopes,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=740.0,745.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: oh, you know, the the the environmental community, or the the pro squirrel camp would try to, you know, trot out some astronomers to raise questions about the university's data. You know, whether this was really a good mountain for still reviewing whether there are better places and all that kind of stuff. They weren't U of A astronomers. And you know, it was, it was, you know, quite frankly, as far as I was concerned, I was in no position to question the astronomers data, and personally, didn't. I was also in no position to question the biologists data and didn't as far as I was concerned, they were probably both right about their own disciplines and wildly wrong about In their criticisms of the other guys discipline","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=746.0,820.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: in this period of time before the Fish and Wildlife came out with their report, were the conservationist groups very active? Or they were mentally","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=821.0,833.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: utterly unactive? They were completely silent. They were they were you? Uh. They weren't on the battlefield. We know I never heard from them. They did not weigh in in any way. I think the mainstream environmental groups, Sierra Club, Wilson, all kind of stuff, essentially made a decision to stay away from this thing. I'll also say that at the time that the real discussion was going on about the legislative solution that the university was seeking, that there wasn't a lot of publicity about this. I mean, people sort of didn't know this was going on. I mean, I, my clearest recollection is in 89 I my dates could be wrong, but going to a meeting in Senator Deacon seniors office in which the this legislative amendment was was a. Um being discussed. This was the first real discussion of a legislative solution. For just a","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=834.0,904.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: little background on that, um, as I understand, they the the university sort of got wind of the fact that that the Fish and Wildlife Service was going to only allow them to build, probably, on on one peak instead of the two right. This would be not favorable. That it would not be favorable then. Then that report actually came out, didn't it, giving them three alternatives,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=905.0,934.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: as I recall this meeting that took place, was, I could be wrong about this, but my reaction was, it was the meeting was just prior to the decision Mike spear was had actually made. It was just prior decision being actually formally entered into, okay that Mike Spire, Mike spear had made the decision and was in the process of informing the university and the delegation what his decision was going to be, and in response to that, the university was going to the delegation seeking to have this legislative solution enacted. And that was the meeting in Senator Deconcini office, which involved, as I recall, all the members of the delegation. I believe Mike Speer was there as well. And it was a very uncomfortable meeting for me, because it was clear that everyone delegation was ready to legislate this thing. And the only question, really was, is Mo going to go along with this? And Mo was not in the meeting, and it was, you know, it was one of those things where, here's, you know, there's Mark trout wine. Is it Mark trout wine or Mo Udall, you know that people are talking to here, and my recollection is that I had talked to mo about this beforehand, because I knew this was coming and and wanted, and we were looking for a position that he could be comfortable with. And the conclusion that we had come to was mo did not Moe did not want to be a brick wall to stop this legislation, because he did not want to be the person who killed the scopes. On the other hand, there were very serious questions about what this amendment was doing, or would potentially do the amendment that the university was promoting, and that Senators McCain and Deconcini were willing to offer to some to to enact a piece of legislation over the Senate","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=935.0,1070.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: again, for for a little background then that the amendment that that that They wanted offered, the legislation that they wanted offered was that asking in some way to to, I hate to say, get around, but get around the the the processes of NEPA, the steps, the administrative steps that they would have,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1071.0,1097.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it was essentially to it was essentially to undo the Forest Service decision. In order to do that okay, they had to direct that certain things happen and that I never believed that what they were asking for was a violation of NEPA, and I don't think it was a violation of NEPA. It did get them into serious conflict with Endangered Species Act, however, and that was the one thing that I suggested to moe, and that he agreed he could not be a party to he could not be a party to a piece of legislation which, in order for Mo Udall to get out of an inconvenient, uncomfortable situation in his home state, was willing to endorse a violation of or an amendment To the Endangered Species Act. It has always been the Endangered Species Act has always been so controversial, and so, you know, kicks up so much dust and problems that it had become an article of conservationist faith that you cannot. You do not amend the Endangered Species Act, and you do not, you do not create exceptions to the Endangered Species Act. And I just considered, and Moe agreed with me that to have mo in the position of being someone to break those ranks, because, you know, he had this little problem in his backyard, was, was, you know, was untenable. Was, was just and he couldn't be associated with it. Okay, so what I told everyone in that delegate, I basically told everyone that delegation that we had to be assured that mo, mo would support the amendment if it could be written in a way that would not create any exceptions to the Endangered Species Act or violations the Endangered Species Act. Now, we were not the committee of jurisdiction over the Endangered Species Act, and I the Danish act can be very complicated. Esa can be very complicated. And you don't legislate an area like this. You know, without knowing what you're doing, the merchant marine and fisheries committee at the time had jurisdiction over the Endangered Species Act, and I told everybody there of that fact, and let them know that basically, I was going to take this amendment to the staff at immersion Marine Fisheries committee, have them review it and tell me, a, Whether this did create any problems with ESA and B, if it did, What? What? If anything we could do to cure that? And to make a long story short, I went to Don Barry, who was the ESA guy on the committee, and later became an assistant secretary, not a deputy assistant secretary, over in over in the Interior Department with jurisdiction over native species, act and explained the problem to Don, and said, Don, tell me what to do. And he wrote the provisions, or rewrote the amendment in such a way that, in his opinion, it was consistent with the requirements of the Endangered Species Act, and it was then and only then, after Don had done that, and we got his assurances that we were not creating any exceptions to ESA, or breaking any real new ground with ESA or anything of that nature, that Moe endorsed the amendment. As it turned out, I think we failed at that. Ultimately we failed because the administration, the lawyers in the administration, simply decided, chose, to interpret that provision in an entirely different way, entirely differently than what was intended lawyers in which administration in? Well, this would have been the Bush administration in the Justice Department and in the Interior Department. I can't recall right now, sort of all the details, but essentially, it had to do with reinitiation of consultation, whether reinitiation of consultation would be required if new information relevant to The habitat of the Mount Graham red squirrel and survive. Survivability arose that if that information about whether you would have to go through this process, re initiation of consultation, which the university loathed the possibility, that's because that would kick in a whole new round of Forest Service consideration of the plan and could result in a different","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1098.0,1422.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: decision now. Now, did this? Did this come up partly in response to or, or prior to the two biologists coming out and saying that they had been essentially pressured by Mike steer or spear spear to to sort of bend the Biological Opinion toward the direction of allowing the scopes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1423.0,1448.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, that information or that those allegations anyway, and that's all Our story. Those allegations emerged after passage of the bill that contained the McGrane provision, and my recollection is that it came after the university's or maybe the administration's legal opinion on the provision itself, and whether, whether it affected reinitiation consultation in the Endangered Species Act, that whole thing with with those biologists, was a sort of a bombshell and a mess. I. Um, which led to, you know, a whole new round of hearings and politics and investigations and all that kind of stuff. Ultimately, I think it was, I think it was, I don't know, kind of like Monica Lewinsky. I think they may have been. There's some interesting stuff there, but I don't think it's important. Ultimately, the responsibility for making that decision was Mike spear, under the law that was his decision to make, the fact that he disagreed, you know, with the opinions of some biologists in his department, was hardly earth shattering. Unusual. Wasn't his job just to rubber stamp anything they said. I think Mike Speer was an honorable man who made the best decision he could. I think he tried to do some balancing, which is not a terrible thing for land manager to try to do. This was just an issue where nobody wanted balance. University didn't want balance. The people opposed the university didn't want balance that people just wanted to win, and they didn't care what arguments they had. It was totally irrelevant to them. I mean, at the time, for example, all of this, the whole issue about Native American religious rights and religious practices, which has since become, you know, one of the major issues was utterly off the table. No one talked about it. No one cared,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1449.0,1601.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: well, that tribes didn't care that hadn't come up yet. Had it well, but not,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1602.0,1605.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: not because people weren't aware that, you know this, this was, was people were aware that this was a place of some significance to certain Native Americans. The the tribe had been contacted repeatedly during the NEPA process and during the Forest Services ESA process. Well, I mean, not during the ESA process, but certainly during the during the NEPA process. And they had declined to, you know, make any significant views or opposition known. This, I think, is a not uncommon problem when dealing with the tribes on public lands issues I ran into this many times the canyon uranium mine was another perfect example. The problem is something goes something like this, in as I understand it, and I'm sure not well, not an expert on this, but in traditional, Native American cultures, the religious beliefs and practices are one that invest a lot of sacredness in a lot of land and very general kind of way. There are many, many, many, many places that are sacred to them. They are reluctant, not, not understandably so to divulge this fact, when you're talking about a specific place that is, in fact, sacred to them, it's part of the sacredness of it so frequently when they're approached, you know, they say nothing when it's in the the public arena and the public decision making process frequently, they would tribes would wait until the very last minute when something was actually about to happen, to speak up about this. The canyon mine is a perfect example. It was only after, in effect, a property right had been invested in this mining company that and that, that the tribe in question there spoke up, and then now you've got a multi million dollar property right to deal with, not just a sort of a public land allocation decision to make anymore, and which enormously complicates the process. The same sort of thing happened in Mount Graham. I also think, and I maybe bit out in the limb in this particular but this was the impression I had, was that, you know, there are differences of opinion within tribes themselves, between members of the members of the tribes who are interested in preserving their traditional cultures and their traditional ways and traditional religions, and are, you know, sort of cultural conservatives in that sense, and other forces in the tribes. That are not interested in that, or, you know, more interested in assimilation or whatever, or have not connected to the old ways. And my impression at the time was that this conflict had emerged during the Dnipro process in the tribes, you know, and that the decision of the tribe ultimately was not to express itself on this because for its own internal decision sort of process. So, you know, I think that those kinds of things were part of the reason, at least, why the tribes had not raised this issue in a powerful way, in any sense, prior, prior to, or even for some considerable time after the legislative consideration, you know of Mount Graham had begun and finished, and then all of its aftermath. So, you know, in both the environmental end of things and on the tribal end of things, both of those interests were sadly Johnny come lately to that process. When they did come, they came with a vengeance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1606.0,1880.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was it almost too late for anything to be done","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1881.0,1884.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: at that well, yeah, sadly, the legislation was passed. And and, and, and, really, unfortunately. I mean, you know what? What Mo and I and Don Barry and the merchant marine folks in the Merchant Marine Fisheries committee had thought we had done to protect the integrity of the endangered species. Act was undone by the lawyers in the Justice Department,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1885.0,1911.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: after passage after passage, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1912.0,1913.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: and sadly, and this is something that I think, that I them","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1914.0,1925.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that the members of the delegation can't defend or can't justify","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1926.0,1934.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: members of the Arizona delegation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1935.0,1939.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: You know what happened after the passage of the Act clearly undid the clear understandings of what it was we were trying to do and not as I mean, you can read in the press releases that members sent out from, you know, Dennis Deacon, seen John McCain, Jim Colby. Jim Colby, all of them that you know, their understanding of what they passed was clear. It was a, you know, we are not creating any exceptions the Endangered Species Act, we are providing for reinitiation of consultation should, should new information about the squirrel arise. We are making and then, and then the lawyers you uh, mix that whole thing, and then you didn't hear anything from the members of the delegation. They nixed it. They didn't they didn't say, Oh, the lawyers are wrong and we have to fix this. But what did they went along. It was a conspiracy of silence. In effect, what the lawyers did was what the Justice Department did and what ultimately the Interior Department, in part, because they were being pressed by the university's lawyers to do this. I mean, there were meetings between the university's attorneys and university representatives with the lawyers in the Justice Department and with the lawyers in the Interior Department, the solicitor's office, to generate this opinion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=1940.0,2047.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Was this a formal opinion that came out of the Justice Department, yes, from Ed Meese interpreting the yes Endangered Species Act portion of this Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2048.0,2057.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: And in response to this, which clearly was undoing the stated intentions of of the Arizona delegation and supporting that, supporting that legislation, and they were utterly silent in the face of that who because, and the reason is because they were quietly glad that that was the decision. Because, frankly, they didn't care about the Endangered Species Act. They didn't care if the Endangered Species Act had to be, had to be tweaked, you know, in their view, or violated in somebody else's view in order to get these telescopes. Built. They wanted the telescopes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2058.0,2100.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: built. What year was? What year was the Justice opinion? Do you recall?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2101.0,2107.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I want to say 89 I'd have to go back and review the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2108.0,2114.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: record. That's all right. Who at the university? Do you know, Matt? I don't. You don't. Okay, an obvious question comes up here is, where was Moe? When this happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2115.0,2134.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Where was Moe? Well, let's, let me address that in a couple of ways. I One, remembering that this was an issue that was simply irresolvable for Mo. I think that where Moe was was that he wanted it all to go away, and he he was not looking for an opportunity to sort of Wade back into this issue and start making war with other members of the delegation, or with the university or with the administration. It would have taken an enormous effort on his part to have fixed any of this legislatively. Ultimately, he would have failed anyway. It was one thing for him to be in a position he was in initially, when the legislation was being considered, to say, you know, Mo, you know, will you be a swinging door brick wall on this, you know? I mean, will you support what we're doing here? It was enough, you know, it was another thing to ask him. The only thing he could have done, really, would been to have initiated some other legislative fix to this, and that means something that's got to, you know, got to get past the house, passed the Senate, signed by the President. And that simply wasn't going to happen, because no one else had any interest in fixing this, and Moe wasn't going to exercise that kind of uses capital and exercises kind of energy to do that. I remember","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2135.0,2245.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that at one point, at one point in this whole process, and this was, this was all prior to all of this, I forget exactly where it was. I think it,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2246.0,2261.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: it might have been before the legislation was actually enacted. I got distinctly uncomfortable with this whole issue and where it was not so much from a, you know, the facts of the issue kind of case, because at that point, I'd long since gotten the point where I really didn't care, you know, whether the scopes got built or not, or, you know, it, my issue was a pox on everybody's house, because everyone was in behaving so abysmally in this whole issue. And there were, there were no, there wasn't a good side to choose in this thing. But I did feel that, I did feel that I owed Moe a piece of advice, and it was really this was one of the few times I ever did this with Moe. I went to him and offered him some unsolicited advice. And the advice was, Mo if you don't put a clear if you don't act clearly on this one way or the other, this issue is going to go on and on and on, and you will never be free of this thing. And the only way I see for you to put a clear closure on this issue is to stop this, you know, is to stop these scopes. It's not because, you know, not because I'm a big environmentalist. It's not because I hate the university. It's not because, you know, I'm opposed to development, or I have a personal thing about, you know, John Moog or Peter stripmeyer matter or Dr Koffler or anything. It's just that, from a purely political point of view, this is going to go on and on forever, and you're going to rue this day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2262.0,2383.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: And was this conversation, obviously, before the legislation passed, but it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2384.0,2387.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was just, it was, it was late in the process. It was, it was, it was really, I knew what Moe would say when I told him this. It was really more to clear my conscience. That I at least offered him this advice and offered him this opportunity. You know, it was really more for me. And you know, he said, he said, Well, he said, I think I remember this very clearly. He said this to me. We were in his office, and he was kind of walking away from me, over to his desk, and he said, he said, Well, I think the, I think it'll be the controversy will be intense but brief. And that, you know, from his experience was not an unreasonable thing to say. He'd been through many, many, many very intense","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2388.0,2436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: issues like this, and at that point the environmental diversities were intense but brief. And in this case, the environmentalists actually weren't all that involved compared to what they became later, right? And the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2437.0,2449.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Native American issue hadn't been brought into this in quite the way. Later was and, and, and I at that point, I said, Fine, and I never said anything along these lines further to him, ever about this. You know, I, like I said, I sort of laid it out to him, to satisfy my own conscience that I was doing the job I was responsible and hired to do for him, which was to give him, you know, my best advice about this, and to try to warn him, you know, about dangers that I saw on any any issue, that that was the danger I saw in this issue. And this was also before, you know, I felt like before I saw that the work that we had done, which I thought was good work to protect endangered species, act was undone before. I felt this. I this. I felt this sense of violation that we'd almost been raped afterwards. On this and again, I want to underscore, you know, for anybody that cares, because I, you know, I got attacked, you know, from both sides on this issue, that throughout this entire process, I never had a strong feeling, personally, one way or the other, whether the scopes got built or didn't get built. I My only interest. Two interests were number one, protecting Mo and doing what he wanted to have done, and to try to achieve the balance that he wanted to achieve. And number two was, was trying to protect the integrity of legal decision making processes through the Endangered Species Act and through NEPA. I thought we did the best job we could on that score. And we failed ultimately, but not because of, I think, anything we did. And, you know, I mean, this was just one of those in Fort, one of those issues where you weren't going to please anybody and trying to please everybody, you know, was, sadly, in the in the final analysis of fools errand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2450.0,2601.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Now, when at was it after the Justice Department came out with their opinion that the environmentalists got most active? Yeah, and, and who? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2602.0,2614.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: actually, I'll tell you, it was after, is after the legislation got passed, and, and there was this sense, and this was something else that I had warned, not only Mo, but I think the rest of the delegation about was that, you know, this very process by which this legislation is being enacted is going to piss people off, as it should have. You know, there were no hearings. This was one of, this was one of these sort of Senate Special specialty jobs, you know, where this stuff gets cooked up in private and gets inserted into a bill. And, and it, you know, in the house, we were really diligent about not doing this kind of thing. And, and this is a perfect example why, you know, we were really sticklers for the process for introduction of legislation, holding hearings, you know, going through markups, all this kind of thing that did not happen here and and People had us had a quite legitimate and understandable sense that this was, this was a wrong way to do things. Now, of course, when it's done in this way, as Chuck Bowden pointed out,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2615.0,2690.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I'm gonna have to change the tape here. Excuse me. One minute. Sure I'm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328#t=2691.0,2693.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270328/transcript/78705/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/705/original/azu_ms396-042_side2_a.vtt?1745252469","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/705/original/azu_ms396-042_side2_a.vtt?1745252469"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 5 of 6 - azu_ms396-043_side1_a.mp3"]},"duration":2742.264,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/content/5/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/329/original/azu_ms396-043_side1_a.mp3?1744847928","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2742.264,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Yeah, okay. We are now on tape 19 Mark trout wine. And we were talking about Mount Graham,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=0.0,8.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: yeah, and I was saying that the process by which that legislation got passed was not a good one, and sort of violated our the procedures that we certainly tried to insist on, but was sent off and made difficult to insist on, which was to have hearings and all that kind of stuff. And people were quite rightly upset about that afterwards, although, as many people are aware, I mean, it's not exactly an unusual way to legislate and when things that the environmental community approved of were legislated in that fashion, they didn't find any reason to object to it. So the process worked the way it worked for better or for worse, and I think quite clearly, was for the worse. But I think that part of the wages of doing legislation that way is you get into these kinds of messes because you don't have the opportunity to vet things in in the way that a good legislative process does. So","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=9.0,76.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: who were,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=77.0,79.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: oh, the one other thing I should say about where was mo in all this is that this was late, very late, in Moe's career, and at this point his health was very bad, and there was really kind of, I don't think any question that Mo's from purely physical point of view. Mo's ability to sort of start weighing in and taking on a major campaign where she'd be pushing everything uphill that he was capable of, that, you know, he knew that. We knew that everybody knew that at that point, and so there was really no way that Moe was going to be able to we had our shot when legislation came through, and we tried and had the language, had had the amendment rewritten to protect endangered species. Act. That was our shot. We thought we'd done a good job. It didn't work out. And then we were after that. We were just left to deal with the mess that could follow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=80.0,155.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Do you think that Mo's health at that point had anything to do with the way that he handled Mount Graham,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=156.0,169.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I think, to this extent that I don't think it changed his judgment any because I think the same forces that were at work on him, you know, in the late 80s, would have been at work on him in the early 80s. And I think he would have tried sort of to do the same kind of thing. He might have been able to bring more personal vigor to trying to resolve the issue better. Or I mean, there's no question at this point, he's a he's tired, he's he's physically broken his he's, you know, thinking about his legacy, his taste for bruising battles and controversy is not great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=170.0,226.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: How was he mentally at that point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=227.0,236.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, it was a day to day thing with Mo. This was one of the most difficult things about working for Mo and watching him over the years, to watch him deteriorate. And deterioration was not only physical. There were many, many days when Mo's presence and clarity, mental clarity, just weren't there. Part of this, part of this was a function of the disease itself. Part of it was a function of the drug regimen he was under. I mean, he's Parkinson's is an extremely ugly, difficult disease that requires certainly in 1980s and early 1990s These the ingestion of large quantities of very, very nasty drugs that Mo was on quite a roller coaster. He would take these very heavy duty drugs that initially would relieve him of a lot of pain and discomfort and it would make him feel great. And he, you know, there'd be a period of real where Momo was really there, and it was wonderful. And then you can't keep taking these drugs forever. You have to stop taking them to allow your body to recover and let the toxicity to subside. And then he'd slide down into a place where, you know, he would become physically debilitated and and mentally cloudy, and he'd also get and that would affect his emotions. You were never most emotions were always, rather, were always very difficult to detect. He was extraordinarily his emotions were always very, very even, I mean, trying to, trying to knowing when Mo was mad, you know, took a metal detector to figure that out. But anyway, and I so you were never quite sure. You know on any given day where Moe was going to be,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=237.0,389.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you would hear reports of him falling asleep at committee hearings or during meetings or presentations. Did you observe that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=390.0,398.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: quite frequently and the later on in the career, the more it would happen. I mean, I remember any number of occasions where I would go over to Mo's office, you know, just to brief him on something, and he would essentially nod out in the middle of your talking. And you would have to, you would just kind of quietly get up and leave. That was hard. Everyone was trying to protect Mo. Mo, was in a lot of denial about his state of his own help. Never wanted any help. I recall during the work on the second Arizona will this bill. There was a meeting in Mo's office with the rest of the delegation, all as I recall, all the members of the Arizona delegation were there and their staffs, and it was an important meeting. It was in a meeting to try and iron out the last remaining I uh, unresolved conflicts in the bill. And we're sitting there in large circle in Mo's large office. I'm kind of on the opposite side of the circle from Mo. And you know, one of the things that happens with Parkinson's patients is that they kind of lose consciousness of their posture. And so frequently, Mo could literally be in a place where his he's hunched over with his head down between his knees, talking, but he's, you know, his head is down between his knees. And on this occasion, that's what was happening. He was sitting on the edge of his chair, and, you know, hunched way forward, and he was talking, and he just fell off the chair, onto the floor, onto his hands and knees. And everyone in the room except me was sort of shocked to see this, and very distinctly that everyone, including, you know, all the members, turned and looked at me as if to say, Well, you're a staff person. You do something about this. And I knew that if I could have gotten fired for anything, I think it would have been to have gone over there and tried to pick mo up and put him back in his chair, he would have hated me for that. He wanted you know you didn't do that. Did he ever say","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=399.0,589.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: anything to that effect? Or this is just no you all just knew it intuitively. This","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=590.0,594.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was something everyone knew and I don't. I. He didn't have to say it, but, you know, I mean, the amazing thing about that incident was that there he is, there he is on his hands and knees. God bless him. I, you know, I can't imagine the kind of humiliation that must have been for him. He's so proud, and he was so he always tried so hard, you know, to not give in to this and to not display this. And here he is in front of the rest of the delegation of his hands, and he's having fallen off his chair. And what he did was, I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but it was something like, it was something typically, it was funny and self deprecating, you know, and it was something like the Chairman has left his chair, or something like that. And very painfully, he picked himself up and put himself back in the chair. And when we went on with a meeting, and, you know, it was both wonderful and horrible all the same time. You know, it was horrible for all the obvious reasons, and for some not so obvious reasons, the it was horrible because, you know, you've got this whole room full of people not acknowledging that this thing has just happened and, and, you know, everyone's seen it, everyone's dumbfounded by it, but no one's going to say anything. But, and this was typical, this happened. All this sort of thing happened a lot. He's sort of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=595.0,696.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: trying to ignore it happened a lot. Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=697.0,698.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, it was out of respect. Well, I think was maybe, you know, partly out of embarrassment, but also out of respect and affection for Mo. But it was also wonderful, because just to, just to see this man struggling with this thing, and in a way, this thing that just so stripped a man of his dignity, a simple everyday dignity of just, you know, being able to conduct himself the way Everyone expects to be able to conduct themselves and calling on all the best parts of himself to maintain that dignity, his humor, his his self deprecating, you know, making himself taking the the pressure off everybody else by making a joke about himself, you know, I think few people, few human beings, can even understand what it was like to be in the position that he was in, much less to be able to Call upon that part of their nature. Under those circumstances,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=699.0,782.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: he had also lost his wife, Ella, 1988, or 89%","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=783.0,790.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: nine would be my 89 is what I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=791.0,792.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: was thinking, too. I don't know quite how to put this, but did that affect his, his work, in any way? Could you tell, I mean, that in addition only","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=793.0,805.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in that I it was devastating emotional experience from O, and I think it probably, you know, affected him the way it would affect anybody who suffered that kind of emotional loss. I and I was, you know, not close to Mo, personally, not close to, you know, the what went on in his marriage. But Ella was an extraordinarily important person to him. She was, among other things, a real truth teller to him, and I'm sure he missed that. I can't, you know, I mean, but Mo was also so much invested in Mo Udall the public man there, really, from what I could tell, that part of him had grown so and crowded out Mo Udall the private man so heavily that I think you know, his response after that was, you know, to pick himself up and, you know, put like, just like he did in that meeting, pick himself up, put himself back in that chair, and go about the job of being Mo Udall, you know, which was the job of, i.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=806.0,899.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Oh, you know, getting these things done. And you know that was an attitude that affected all of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=900.0,910.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: You know, people have asked, Did most stay too long? And you know, there are many answers to that question, many good answers to that question, and clearly, from a purely physical point of view and personal point of view, yes, obviously he stayed too long from a political point of view and a career point of view. The answer is not that easy, yes, of course, his, he had, there was a long process of physical deterioration that was very, very ugly and very much affected his ability to function, you know, there's no question about it. On the other hand, you know, we all had a sense that, that this man is totally this, this politician, this, this, this public figure, is totally unique. He can do things that no other public figure can do, the combination of his personality and his character, his credibility, his position as chairman of this committee was extraordinary, and that he could promote an agenda and get things done even in a diminished state that no one else could do, and the record speaks for itself. I mean, up until the day he quit, he was getting stuff done, and he was getting stuff done because of the nature of because of his nature, his personal nature, his character, and the love, respect and affection that people had for him, which allowed them to see right beyond and through this, the physical destruction that was obvious for anybody to see, but it was also, frankly, a function of the kind of work ethic that he and Stanley Scoville had established with his staff and his whole operation. This is, you know, it's not an uncommon problem on in Congress for members to stay too long at the fair and to be in positions of great power and responsibility, but sort of be dysfunctional and there are, there's a lot of history and a lot of record of you know, staff assuming The role of the member and abusing that role. I think, without question and without reservation, and it's one of the things that I am, that I am most proud of, and I think everyone who worked for mo can be most proud of, which is that we handled that problem and that issue, I think, in an extraordinarily sensitive, responsible, credible way. I think we did things the way mo wanted them done, whether Mo was the way Moe wanted them done and not the way we wanted them done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=911.0,1127.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And I think that's a monument to him. So, you know, did most stay too long? Well, yes, no, you know. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1128.0,1149.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in the final analysis, for me, that wasn't my decision to make. I hadn't You never asked me for my advice on it. Thank god. I'm glad he never did. You know it was my job to do, to carry out, you know, his wishes and the wishes of the committee, and even in a diminished state, we were able to do that. We were able to know what you knew, what Moe wanted done, and how he wanted it done, and you were going to be faithful to that, just there wasn't any question about it. It was hard. It was on a personal level, it was extremely hard. It was extremely hard. There were some moments with Mo where you just there was one day when he had to get to the Rules Committee. He had a very important bill before the Rules Committee, and Stan and I went over there to brief him before we walked over to the committee. And we got there and couldn't find him, and after a while, we sort of hear this plaintiff call from those little private bathrooms. Help, help walk in there, and there's Mo. You know, one of the things that would happen occasionally is that mo would become frozen like a statue couldn't move. And the only way to break this was to move him, in some fashion, move an arm or a leg or something, and then it would kind of free him up. And we go in the bathroom, he's standing there at the sink, and he's frozen. And Stanley and I spent 20 minutes, you know, Stanley standing on the toilet, trying to move Mo's shoulders, and I'm down on my hands and knees on the ground trying to move Mo's feet, and, you know? And he finally do it, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1150.0,1270.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: that must have been hard on a day to day basis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1271.0,1274.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: It's terrible, yeah, you know, but then, then the next day, he could be all there, all there, you know, it was like nothing that ever happened. And","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1275.0,1293.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: what period of time was it that, that he was that that bad, just like the last year before, two years before? Well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1294.0,1301.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you know, it's hard to say, because, you know, such a gradually progressive kind of thing, that it wasn't like one day you woke up and all of a sudden things were really bad. Plus, when you're living it day to day to day to day, you just sort of don't really notice until all sudden, you kind of say, hey, you know, it's been a little worse, more often than it used to be, kind of thing or something like this bathroom thing would happen, and you go, wow, that's that's a new one, so, you know, but I, I would say, you know, certainly up through the mid 80s and stuff, the the problems were really quite minor, and it really wasn't until the late, you know, the later 80s, that the more severe effects and problems started manifesting themselves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1302.0,1378.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Let's back up just a little bit couple more things about Mount Graham, and then I just have a couple of general questions. We talked about some of the university players. I'd like to ask just your impressions of a couple of people, one one university player, we missed, and then the players on the conservationist side, Dr Henry coughler, did you have any any contact with him at all, or any improvement?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1379.0,1415.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I recall one meeting when Dr copper and Mr. Beagle and some of the other university folks came to town and to talk to moe, and the only thing I remember we had a meeting. I was in the meeting, you know, there was sort of a general discussion about Mount Graham. It was, it was, you know, fairly general, you know, there's not untypical of a lot of the meetings that mo had, of a lot of people, you know, where, you know, people would be ushered in. You'd spent a considerable amount of time with Mo sort of doing, doing mo shtick, you know, which was mo telling stories and jokes that people loved and would laugh and have a wonderful time. And you know, I'd heard these stories, some of these stories hundreds and hundreds of times and and, you know, I would laugh the 100th time, just as much as I'd laugh the first time, because, because, just because of the way mo would tell these stories anyway. So, you know, you have that. And then, gee, you know, you be getting late. What did you come to see me about? You know, you'd have kind of 10. Minutes to sort of kind of go through the substance of what they came from and came for and and you kind of go through it, and then they'd be out of there, and everyone would always feel like they just had this great meeting with no Utah. But, you know, he agreed to do nothing kind of thing. And it was that sort of meeting, except that at the end of this meeting, Dr Koffler asked to speak privately with Mo and that was extremely rare. I don't know what happened, what was discussed, what transpired between them in that conversation. I do know shortly after that that mo made the mark. You got to get me out of this comment to me, but that was really just about the extent of that I can recall of my contact with Dr Crawford. How","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1416.0,1560.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: about the environmentalists? Were there any that particularly stuck out in your mind, or the child? Yeah,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1561.0,1567.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: you could, you know, between you had no Robin silver and Bob Weitzman. Who were, you know, really, you know, my hat's off to them in terms of their energy and their relentlessness on this issue, but they really did their cause of disservice, I believe in what way? Oh, they very personal, very loose with their attacks, very personal with their attacks, and very loose with their facts. They had a way of vilifying individuals that did them no good whatsoever. They were pests, which they made well regard as a compliment. But I can tell you that everybody that I knew of, who you know, who, even people who were inclined to be sympathetic with them and agree with them. Just couldn't stand them, and just, you know, wanted to walk the other way when they came because they were, they were humorless ideologues with an utter inability and and for what I could tell are lack of interest in understanding the process, understanding other people's points of view, understanding how they might be able to make the process work for them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1568.0,1671.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: They were mainly interested, it seemed to me, and you know, finding bad people, you know, and hitting them over the head. And, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1672.0,1687.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I mean, ultimately, I know that what all they really cared about was stopping the university from building the telescopes. And I, you know, I don't have any brief with that one way or the other. I just, you know, I mean, the proof is in the pudding. Ultimately, they were terribly ineffective. They didn't accomplish a damn thing. And, you know, it isn't as if they didn't have some material to work with. I mean, the Lord knows, they burned up more than a few fax machines on the hill. I mean, they used to literally render, I know, in George Miller's office, they spent render George Miller's fax machine useless for days just sending, you know, like 200 page reports by fax, you know, over the machine that kind of, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1688.0,1742.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how to win friends and influence people crazy it was, you know,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1743.0,1748.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: unfortunately in the whole Mount Graham issue, I don't think anybody comes out with their comes out smelling like a melon very well. And that was what was so difficult. One of the things was so difficult about the issue is that, you know, and they just, there were no heroes in that story. What's in that story? Whatsoever. They're only, there's only failure and things to be embarrassed or sad about, there's only regret, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1749.0,1789.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: As you may know, Congress recently voted to create a Federal Institute of Environmental dispute resolution under the auspices of the Udall Foundation. Do you think such an agency, if it had existed during the time of Mount Graham, would have helped in resolving that situation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1790.0,1810.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: That's a wonderful question. I would have loved to have had such an entity around at the time, if nothing else, to sort of get the issue off Mo's back and off my back. And, you know, any kind of semblance of an impartial arbiter would have been wonderful, although I would think that effectiveness of that kind of of instrument would require the willing participation both parties to it, and I doubt if you would have had that at the time. And I mean, it's ironic, you know? I mean, I do think that this the whole area of environmental mediation is moving to a very new and different kind of plane than existed during Mo's career, and it is moving but ironically, what I see happening a lot Is that a great what's happening a lot is that science, good science, good environmental science, is being brought out of the classroom and out of the halls of academe and into areas of public policy decision making. I think it's becoming increasingly crucial and important in resolving environmental disputes. The irony, of course, here in Mount Graham, is that you had arguing scientists. That's what, yeah, you know, you had astronomers with their higher pursuit dumping on biologists who had their higher pursuit dumping on astronomers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1811.0,1932.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You know, not that. I don't think that some kind of, you know, respected arbiter or process would have been useful. I mean, I think it very well could be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1933.0,1951.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: But you know, ultimately, all of these kinds of disputes, you know, ultimately involve, you know, someone's got to make a decision. And usually that's a public policy figure of some kind, and it does involve willing participation of people in the process, so that, I mean, so that people, people are made to feel less like victims of environmental decision making it and more like participants and partners in environmental decision making. I mean, I think that's, you know, where things ought to be going. It's, it's, I would have I'd like to see that. Would have liked to see that happen on Mount Graham. And I'm not sure it couldn't have, but given some of the personalities involved and some of the forces at work and that kind of thing, it would certainly would have been quite a test in 1991","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=1952.0,2016.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: which one mo fell down the stairs in his house and and was moved to a hospital and essentially resigned. Not long thereafter, resigned from the house George Miller, Congressman Miller of California, took over as chair of the of the interior committee at that time. Did you and Stanley stay on with Chairman Miller?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2017.0,2046.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I was the only Udall staff person, legislative Udall staff person that George asked to stay on. Was that right? Initially, Stanley did not stay on, and then after a short period of time, I think it was maybe about six months, Mr. Miller brought Stanley back, and Stanley served on the committee until his Stanley's own death in 95","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2047.0,2085.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: what role was he? It","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2086.0,2089.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: was quite a you know, it was not an easy thing. Stanley had been staff director of that committee for God 15 years. And. And to come back in a sort of lesser status, if you can put it that way, was not an easy thing for him to do, but he was brought back because of his absolutely boundless knowledge about the procedures of the committee, the way and the procedures of the house and the way things work to sort of, you know, give George his expertise in those areas. And he did so up until his death with great distinction. And I think I know that, you know, Mr. Miller and all of his staff people learn to value Stanley's very sage advice on how to get things done and how all the incredibly complicated kinds of procedures that you need to know in order to, you know, navigate your way through the legislative process, came to rely on it heavily. What","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2090.0,2168.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I mean? I'm assuming it was quite different working for you'd work how many years with Mo, 17,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2169.0,2174.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, 12, from 79 until his retirement, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2175.0,2182.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: how, how did it differ? Working for","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2183.0,2187.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: well, it was, you know, it was different. Mr. Miller is from the Bay Area, California, San Francisco area. He had a lot of Mo's passion and shared Moe's environmental politics or his environmental goals, in very important ways, it was one of the things that was always most wonderful to deal with Mo was, you know, you never really had to argue with Mo about, you know, what was right and wrong, what you're trying to do. And I didn't have to do that with George either. George is an enormously intelligent, creative, inventive, insightful, exciting thinker, and a very demanding, intellectually demanding guy, because he had a lot of his own ideas and his own insights into things. And as a staff person, that was quite challenging, because, you know, you could, you could walk into a meeting with George, and you just really, sort of, you really had to know your stuff, because you never really knew what was going to be coming out of him and stuff. So in that sense, it was very exciting, I but it was different in the sense he he relied on a very, very few people for his for his, you know, his advice, and for getting things done. And really, really, two people, two, three people, and it tended to leave you out of the loop when important decisions were being made or important meetings were being held, very often you weren't there, and you would hear about it afterwards from somebody else. And that was hard, that was hard to live with, particularly after 12 years of having the kind of freedom and authority and responsibility and trust and confidence that I'd had from Mo i My respect for George is is enormous and profound, but it was hard for me to lose that kind of, that kind of freedom, and that kind of being in the middle of things, and being, you know, having responsibilities instead of tasks to do. And George is also different from mo in that he really wasn't as much of a legislator as Moe George. We used to say, I used to say, you know, George wasn't interested in hitting singles and doubles. You know, George was interested in hitting home runs. So, for example, you know, when we would do we spent a lot of time with George working on forest management issues, old growth, ancient forest kinds of things, how to preserve it and stuff. And you know, it didn't. George wasn't interested in passing a bill that kind of would sort of set aside. Some old growth areas, you know, he wanted, he wanted to change public policy, you know, in a way that changed the entire management of the entire forest, you know. And in a way he was right. I mean, Mo, some of the work you know, that Mo and I did, when you look back on it now, it was right for the time, but it, there's a bit of a futility about it. You know, we were sort of there in a time when it was okay to, you know, create wilderness areas by drawing lines on maps, and that would protect, you know, the wilderness values in that area? Well, in many, many ways now we you can see that that just isn't enough. Because so much, you know, with the irresistible March of demographics and human development and growth in this country and progress, yada yada, you know it's the importation of things into those wilderness areas that are destructive. Of those wilderness values is inevitable. You have to do more than just draw lines around these places. You have to change what's going on outside of them as well, so that all this sort of works together. And, you know, George understood that. And I don't think any, anybody, any, certainly, any politician, has found a way to fix this. Yet, I wonder often, you know, if mo were still chairman, you know, still doing this, how he would have adjusted to this kind of reality, you know, because it is a difficult, more difficult problem. It's a whole new, I hate the word paradigm, but it is a whole new paradigm for how to deal and, you know, it's, it's like what I was talking when we were talking before, about this whole environmental mediation kind of thing, you know, you wouldn't an environmental mediation process that was brought to bear on Mount Graham wouldn't result in drawing a bunch of lines on Mount Graham to, you know, say, on one side of this line, you can do this, and the other side line you can't do anything. You know, it would be a more integrative kind of thing. You know, how can we make this whole, this whole area here, work to achieve these disparate goals? That's a much more complicated kind of thing than drawing lines on maps. And George didn't have the answer. And nobody had the answer, really, you know how to do that, and, you know, this whole ecosystem management kind of thing. So it was very frustrating. And I, you know, frankly, by, you know, I it had gotten to the point where, you know, it was clear I was getting to be longer and longer between, you know, times when I could identify that I'd accomplished anything, anything real on the ground, and I really had no interest in being there, just to, you know, just to be there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2188.0,2590.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: When did you leave? I left","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2591.0,2594.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: in January of 1995 Right. Right? As the Republican revolution was coming in, I had planned to leave so the election had nothing to do with my leading I was not run out of town by Republicans, but I left for a combination of reasons, one because I was burned out and because I wasn't getting the same satisfaction out of my work that I had with Mo. I think everyone who worked for mo will tell you that the what they did during their years with Mo is probably what they're most proud of in their whole lives. I think it was that kind of experience for people, not replicatable. And I mean in its totality, in the totality of the sense of what you were doing, who you were doing it, for, why you were doing it, how you were doing it, it, it was just, it was just something that you know made you proud to come to work every day, and so you missed that. And then also I, my health was, was deteriorating. One of the ironies for me, this is just a personal thing. I'm a person who's lived with aids since about 19. 83 and and so was Stanley Scoville. And here we had mo dealing with, you know, his debilitating, terminal disease. And here were Stanley and I dealing with our interminable, I mean, a term, terminal, debilitating diseases, and working on these sorts of timeless kinds of issues, you know, designating willingness for future generations and stuff. And I don't know, I don't know if I can put into words what that felt like. I.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329#t=2595.0,2597.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270329/transcript/78706/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/706/original/azu_ms396-043_side1_a.vtt?1745252497","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/706/original/azu_ms396-043_side1_a.vtt?1745252497"}]}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 6 of 6 - azu_ms396-043_side2_a.mp3"]},"duration":745.584,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/content/6/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-arizona.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/270/330/original/azu_ms396-043_side2_a.mp3?1744847932","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":745.584,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Are working for Congress. They think about, you know, oh, power, and you know politics and money. And you know who's doing what, to whom, and, and there's a great deal of that. There's a question. I mean, that's going on there, but it's also a very human drama. I mean, these are real people leading real lives. They just happen to be there, you know? They just happen to be in the national legislature, in this we know your office is a national monument. You know, you're doing the people's business. You're operating on what I think is the greatest stage of human theater we have in this country. And it's all his people. And to see mo in that setting, you know, it's one thing to be, you know, a great guy, to be a man of, you know, dignity and humor and grace and accomplishment and intellect, the way Mo was. You know, in other arenas, it's still a great accomplishment. I don't diminish it in any way, but to do that in that shark tank, and to do it so consistently, to do it without fail, day in, day out, year after year for 30 years, well, I don't think any, I mean, anybody failed to learn a lesson from that. How could you have to be without a pulse not to learn from that? I, you know, it made us all better people. When I, you know, when I saw Waymo dealt you know, with Parkinson's, it couldn't help but say something to me about the way I dealt with my own health. So, you know, I mean, there's a lot of learning and a lot of teaching going on all the time in a place like that, on a very human level. And and, you know, Mo was one of the great teachers. In that sense, I get very, very touched, for example, by some of the things I've read John McCain write and say about the kinds of things that mo taught him about just decency, you know, just simple decency. To people, it's very touching and to remember that, you know, I get a little mad sometimes when I, you know, people talk about Mo and and, you know, all there is, is this sort of decent man kind of thing. And they forget that this that he was also a man of great principle and great fire and great passion, desire to accomplish and achieve things. And he did those things. He wasn't just some mushy, nice there wasn't Will Rogers, you know, just sort of yucking it up with people. He was, he was making people do things good, things that they otherwise did not want to do and would not have done. And they didn't. They did it because he was there and he wanted them done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=0.0,243.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: I have, I have, actually, my final question, we've talked a lot about Mo's strengths.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=244.0,252.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What do you think his weaknesses were? Oh, well,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=253.0,259.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: Mo, you know, I'm someone once told me a long time ago, and I've found this to be a great truth, that most people's vices are the excess of their virtues. And you know, you could say that about Mo, you know, the same kind of sort of quiet strength that you know, got him through so much also made him kind of a denier of a lot of reality. I mean, a denier of pain when you shouldn't deny it. He was certainly in a lot of denial. About his health. No question about that. He I don't know if I would call this a weakness, but I found it sad about Mo, and I sort of consider this sort of sometimes. I call it great liberals disease, that you know, a lot of great liberals are really wonderful at doing good for people, in a general sense, but have a great deal of difficulty relating to individual individuals on a really direct human level. And I mean, certainly that was true in my case. I think I said earlier that, you know, in 12 years that I worked for Mo, he never once asked me a single personal question about my life of any kind. He showed, you know, he had no interest whatsoever in Mark trotwine as a human being, and I think that the result of that, not me personally, there's no reason why he should have been a great friend of mine. But I think Moe as a human being, was a fairly isolated and lonely man, and which is ironic, you know, when you think about it, he was so beloved by so many people, yet really had very Few people that were really close to him on an elemental human level.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=260.0,409.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 3: Who was close to him on that level? Do you well, you know? Yes, I,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=410.0,417.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: you know, yeah, Ella, certainly. People like Ed Coyle,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=418.0,427.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"UNKNOWN SPEAKER: some of Ellis friends, female friends.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=428.0,436.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 1: I don't, you know, I'm not really sure, as I wasn't, you know, I didn't go over to Mo's house for dinner. I mean, the closest I ever got to dinner at Moe's house was the block of cheese with a knife in his chest. Although you often did have when Moe was bored, you know, like during recesses and stuff, he always wanted to have people to go to lunch with and stuff. So you'd go to lunch, but you'd end up, you might, know, sort of chit chat about stuff, but personal stuff a little bit. But, you know, you'd kind of talk business and stuff over over lunch with Mo, which was always an experience. But I know, I think that mo got so totally invested in his persona, in the public man, that there just wasn't a lot left, a lot of room left for Moe with a private man. I you know. I mean, I could speculate about all kinds of reasons for that. I think he was a shy he was a genuinely shy man. And I think that the kind, I think, you know, he grew up feeling like kind of an awkward, geeky kind of kind of guy. And, you know, I mean, it's true of most human beings. You sort of have trouble if most people never do grow out of the kind of self image you have of yourself as a child, as a teenager, you know? And you kind of always had the impression that, in some sense, he was always overcoming that. That was part, good part of what all the humor was, you know, it was a way of making people love you, and the way of disarming them. How could you not love this? This was, you know, it was wonderful. And, you know, and he loved to entertain people. I mean, you could see, I mean, there was an entertainer at work here, as well as of, you know, as I said before, he used humor, most definitely as a weapon, defensive as well as offensive weapon, you know, and you could get, you could get mad at Moe, sometimes, for not, you know, sticking it to people. Sometimes, when they deserve to have it stuck to them, you know, you sometimes you felt like he was allowing himself to be taken advantage of. But it's also true that in the final analysis, he for everything he lost by being that way, he gained 10 times over because of the because of the credit he got. You know, that kind of thing as a ball. Boss. His weaknesses were, I couldn't have imagined a better boss. Oh, sometimes he wished he'd been, you know, a little more involved in the detail. You know, you wish that, you know, like when you're in that meeting with all the other members and, you know, some member starts spouting off. You know, bad information about Eagle tail mountains or something like that. You know that Moe could say now, now, Joe, you know that mining claim was extinguished in, you know, 1963 that doesn't matter anymore. You know, Mo wouldn't, couldn't, do that. But you know, this is, this is small potatoes. You know, this is totally small potatoes. And you know, the hardest thing about working for him was his health without question. And you know, it's one of the sad ironies and one of sort of endless speculation about, you know what, if you know what, if you know, he hadn't had that bull's eye painted on him, you know, with the kinds of what more could he have accomplished? Certainly, he has nothing to apologize for in terms of what he did accomplished and and, you know, he has an absolutely, a career, a record that any politician would die for. Few will it will equal, but you're left with this gnawing sense of, oh, you know, like, well, the politician that dies too young. You know the Kennedy that gets assassinated, the Bobby Kennedy that gets assassinated, the you know that they got taken off the stage before their time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=437.0,735.999"},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SPEAKER 2: Well, I am done with questions. Shall we end it here? Let's do it all right. Thank you very much, Mark. Thank you. Applause.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330#t=736.0,738.0"}]},{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://arizona.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3179/collection_resources/146517/file/270330/transcript/78707/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/707/original/azu_ms396-043_side2_a.vtt?1745252520","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/078/707/original/azu_ms396-043_side2_a.vtt?1745252520"}]}]}]}